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Potential additional sourcing

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Some additional sources that could be of use for expansion:

Ljleppan (talk) 06:18, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Merger with Espoo Blues?

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If you read the article, you can see that Kiekko-Espoo and the Espoo Blues are the same team. Having an article for the Blues is completely unneccessary and it just complicates things. How are K-Espoo and Blues the same team you may ask?

"In 2017, Espoon Kiekkoseura [fi] and Espoon Palloseura, which split from the Blues's junior organization, launched their own junior representative team and founded Kiekko-Espoo ry.[1] The team plays in U16, U18 and U20 junior leagues under the name Kiekko-Espoo. When Espoo United collapsed in the spring of 2018, the organization decided to also establish a representative team for adults in Kiekko-Espoo. It started playing in the 2018–2019 season in the Suomi-sarja. In the 2019–2020 season, the Blues women's representative team also moved to Kiekko-Espoo.[2]"

Thats how --Cheers! Kilaseell - Message me! - 14:00, 8 January 2023 (UTC) Cheers! Kilaseell - Message me! - 14:00, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

While I'd oppose a move for North American teams, this seems like a situation common in Europe where an athletic club fields multiple teams (often in multiple sports), and where the club simply reestablished its senior men's team. Ravenswing 19:16, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I read into the Finnish article and it says there that Espoo Blues was a part of K-Espoo from 1998 to 2016, but they have a seperate article for the Blues. I will execute the merger since these two ARE the same team. The only thing different is the name and the league. --Cheers! Kilaseell - Message me! - 22:44, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Ravenswing: Just want to point out that there are possible WP:COI and maybe WP:OWN issues, because the creator of this discussion (Kilaseell) is also the creator of Kiekko-Espoo. I have reverted the redirect to this page at Espoo Blues and reverted changes at Kiekko-Espoo, because the possible connection between these clubs should be investigated before making any further changes. – Sabbatino 17:35, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I just explained how they are the same club. Kiekko-Espoo was formed in 1984. The Espoo Blues was just a name change in 1998

The Blues went bankrupt in 2016, but the junior teams and the women's team remained.

Kiekko-Espoo was re-established in 2017 by the Blues junior organization and a few other Espoo based teams. In 2018, the organization re-established the senior team and moved the Blues women under the same name. They are the same team and there's no point in having a seperate article for the Blues. --Cheers! Kilaseell - Message me! - 17:40, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Finnish article on Kiekko-Espoo includes the Blues in the history section and in the infobox you can see that Kiekko-Espoo was just known as the Blues 1998-2016. --Cheers! Kilaseell - Message me! - 18:01, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like different clubs. At least that is what both sources listed in this discussion indicate. The current Kiekko-Espoo (looks like it was tied to Espoo United (ice hockey)) seems to just be using the name and has no connection to Espoo Blues (the original Kiekko-Espoo), which is similar to Winnipeg Jets and Winnipeg Jets (1972–1996) sharing the name. – Sabbatino 18:24, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oh no. The Espoo United was tied with the K-Espoo women's team. This is the men's team.
As I said earlier, the modern Kiekko-Espoo was established by the Blues junior organization. Espoo United is a whole different thing. The whole thing is really complicated, but if you read the Finnish article on Kiekko-Espoo, there it is explained that the Blues was just a name change. --Cheers! Kilaseell - Message me! - 18:27, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
From the Finnish Wikipedia (machine translation, not perfect)
"After the 1997–1998 season, which ended in fourth place, Kiekko-Espoo's name changed to Espoo Blues. The club carried K-Espoo's history with it. Kiekko-Espoo players Jere Lehtinen and Timo Hirvonen's numbers were frozen and their shirts were raised on the roof of Tapiola's multipurpose arena."
"Junior clubs EJK, EKS, EPS and Jäähonka formed the core of the junior activities of Kiekko-Espoo and Blues for a long time. Among these clubs, EPS and EKS parted ways in the mid-2010s due to disagreements. In 2017, the clubs started their own player path to C-A juniors. It was named Kiekko-Espoo."
"The representative team is run by a limited company managed by Kiekko-Espoo ry.[7] Its members are EKS and EPS. According to the association's rules, Blues Juniors can join with the same rights as other junior clubs.
Unlike United, which was founded two years earlier, Kiekko-Espoo's new arrival got the Espoo ice hockey breeders firmly behind them. Many graduates of Kiekko-Espoo and Blues became shareholders of the limited company. The group includes e.g. Tomi Sallinen, Jere Sallinen, Jani Lajunen, Ville Lajunen, Arto Laatikainen, Toni Kähkönen, Veli-Matti Savinainen, Mikko Koskinen, Mikko Lehtonen and Matti Järvinen.
Kiekko-Espoo returned to the men's representative team level exactly 20 years after the name of the original club changed to Blues. The new Kiekko-Espoo started games in the 2018–2019 season in the Finnish series. It played its home game of the season at the ice hall in Espoonlahti." Cheers! Kilaseell - Message me! - 18:32, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Finnish Wikipedia is not a source (or any Wikipedia for that matter). In addition, it is your duty to WP:PROVEIT with sources. What I found is this:
  • 29 March 2016 – Espoo Blues bankruptcy (owners – Jääkiekko Espoo Oy);
  • 29 March 2016 – Espoo Blues bankruptcy (owners – Jääkiekko Espoo Oy);
  • 12 April 2016 – Espoo Blues bankruptcy (owners – Jääkiekko Espoo Oy);
  • 26 May 2018 – new club Kiekko-Espoo (owners – Kiekko-Espoo Oy);
  • 9 June 2018 – new club Kiekko-Espoo (owners – Kiekko-Espoo Oy);
  • 13 October 2018 – new club Kiekko-Espoo (owners – Kiekko-Espoo Oy).
Sources quite clearly indicate that Espoo Blues (the original Kiekko-Espoo) and Kiekko-Espoo (looks like it was indeed connected to Espoo United to some degree) – are two different clubs. – Sabbatino 18:56, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Sabbatino: I would agree with you here, but the problem is that the modern Kiekko-Espoo was established by the Blues Junior organization. The current Kiekko-Espoo juniors are also under the Blues Junior organization. The Blues women's team is under this said organization and some junior teams even still use the Blues name and logo! It is the same club, just different name and league. --Cheers! Kilaseell - Message me! - 19:41, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Reading through those last three sources and it does indicate that K-Espoo and the Blues infact ARE the same team... --Cheers! Kilaseell - Message me! - 20:22, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah but it is the same organization who made these clubs! --Cheers! Kilaseell - Message me! - 18:59, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If they are the same club, fine, but we should not wipe all the history and information from the old (aka same club with the old name) page. Currently the Kiekko-Espoo article is barebones and contains none of the years of information that the Espoo Blues page did, and it even still contains links and redirects to the old Espoo Blues page, which in turn just redirects back to Kiekko-Espoo...
–uncleben85 (talk) 14:17, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Kiekko-Espoo tekee paluun kaukaloon EKS:n ja EPS:n junnujen edariseurana". Länsiväylä (in Finnish). 2017-11-21. Retrieved 2022-10-05.
  2. ^ "Naiskiekon menestynein seura Blues historiaa – Kiekko-Espoo palaa Naisten liigaan". Yle Urheilu (in Finnish). 2019-04-25. Retrieved 2022-10-05.
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