Talk:Lady Moyra Butler

What is too much?

I feel like the content of this page has been torn apart a little too harshly by @Drmies (in particular, the language used when making revisions seems rude and condescending). Phases such as 'this speaks to incompetence' regarding referencing discourages individuals from contributing to Wikipedia, and what this sort of comment itself seems to speak to is actually the readiness by an editor/administrator to engage in bullying rather than providing constructive feedback. This is disappointing and disheartening to see.

First and foremost, this aim of this page was to piece together various sources of information about this individual, which has taken painsaking research through libraries, online newspaper archives, ancestry sites, etc, and I feel like a roadblock is being put up as to its relevance, when the purpose of the page is actually to piece together information to make research and learning easier and more accessible for everyone and anyway. This is something which Wikipedia as a whole has historically been an invaluable resource for.

The tag added today indicating that the detail may be too intricate is confusing, given that the level of detail is necessary to illustrate the era of change during which this individual lived. Some examples include:

- Suggesting that notability is not inherited with regard to the relevance/right to exist of a Wikipedia page:

Whilst this may have some merit on face value, the 'inherited' aspect is a fundamental in this regard, as it underpins several historical events relating to the Butler Dynasty during its decline in the early-to-mid 20th century. This includes the Sale of much of the Ormonde Picture Collection, which was carried out by Lady Moyra Butler, as the sole surviving child of the 5th Marquess of Ormonde and beneficiary of his personal estate). Perhaps the inclusion of more (reliable) references which establish the extent to which the Republic of Ireland's Office of Public Works (a government department, and current owner of Kilkenny Castle) have sought out and purchased artworks from Lady Moyra's descendants which were known to have been part of the collection housed at Kilkenny Castle could emphasise this point more conclusively.

- The individual who is the subject of the page was the mother of an individual who is on the record as being a romantic partner of a child of a British Sovereign. I would suggest that whilst this fact alone could not be the sole reason for the page to be considered relevant/notable, but it does contribute to the nexus of information supporting this consideration. 

- The individual was for a time the only female ambulance driver working for the British Red Cross during the Second World War, and I believe this fact is properly referenced. Surely this contributes to notability. 

- I will concede that the list of attendees at the Debutante Ball in 1938 was becoming too extensive; however I would welcome feedback as to whether a condensed list (perhaps to the point where the inclusion would be suitable in sentence, rather than bulleted list format) references to such individuals as (1) a daughter-in-law of Sir Winston Churchill, (2) President John F. Kennedy's parents and sister, (3) Clarissa Eden, future wife of British Prime Minister Anthony Eden, and Princess Diana's grandparents could be considered relevant?

- Furthermore, regarding the Ball, I would respectfully suggest that several key historical trends have been overlooked. It is a given that the Second World War heralded a time of steep decline in real wealth, political capital and general relevance of the British Aristocracy, and consequently the final 'seasons' in the late 1930's have been the subject of considerable authorship. The contrast between the decline in real wealth and landed property of the Butler Dynasty which was included, and the surviving evidence of their network/circles serves to illustrate the pre-World-War 2 reality of this trend, no?

- The general information in the introductory/'Early Life' sections which discusses the finances of the Ormonde Estate is, in my opinion, necessary to contextualise the significance of Lady Moyra and her immediate family. The family had lived at Kilkenny Castle for half a millenium, and providing detail as to the specific changes and financial challenges facing the family and their estate in the early 20th century reinforces their notability, particularly as this lead to Moyra, her brother and parents being the last family to use the Castle as a home prior to their departure in the mid-1930's. 

- The lack of general information available about Moyra's home in Belgium, Jehay-Bogdinee (or Chateau de Jehay, depending on the source) should not be considered as a detractor as to notability; I would argue that it is not uncommon for pages about historical buildings in non-English-speaking countries is common on wikipedia. However, the fact remains that this is a major tourist attraction in Belgium, and focussing on the key role which Lady Moyra played in financing its restoration supports the notability/relevance of this page which examines her life. 

I would be grateful for feedback, and I acknowledge that the formatting and quality of the references needs significant improvement. CarolinetheFifteenth! (talk) 13:52, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

• I'm not going to respond to every single bit here, but I will say that if you have, as a title for a newspaper article, this, "clip page for Party - Viscount Thurles coming-of-age and Lady Moyra Butler coming-out by user zach_schafferius", then there's a lack of competence which casts doubt on the painstaking research bit. What I find condescending is this, reinserting content without any explanation, after I removed it because the link is to an index, without explaining which of the listed 956 entries is supposed to verify the content spread out over three paragraphs. It starts and ends with reliable secondary sources, and for that building, there weren't any. We can't take your word for it: that's original research. Drmies (talk) 14:24, 17 October 2023 (UTC)