Talk:Liberation of Kherson

Lead section

Liberation and withdrawal

@Adoring nanny: I see that you have edited the lead section and infobox to remove any references to the withdrawal of the Russian military from right-bank Kherson Oblast, Mykolaiv Oblast, and the dates on which this happened, based on the No consensus outcome of the Rename discussion. I accept that outcome, and that the title will remain Liberation of Kherson for the foreseeable future (the closer advised not to restart a discussion for at least three months, which seems a good idea), but I don't think it's appropriate to change the lead section this way because of it; that would have been appropriate if the result was Not moved. As was discussed above, Russian withdrawal from Kherson should probably be used as an alternative name, or otherwise mentioned in the lead section and the infobox if Liberation of Kherson became the article title, or vice versa; either title would also become/remain a redirect to the other. I would agree that the latter should now be mentioned first due the title discussion outcome, so I'll make a few suggestions, and I'd like to hear what you and perhaps others think is best:

1. The Liberation of Kherson and preceding Russian withdrawal from Kherson refer to the withdrawal of Russian military from and subsequent liberation by the Ukrainian military of the city of Kherson and other areas on the western bank of the Dnieper river that took place from 9 to 11 November 2022. The areas were in the Kherson Oblast and parts of Mykolaiv Oblast. The withdrawal of Russian forces and subsequent liberation of the city by the Armed Forces of Ukraine (ZSU) were a result of the 2022 Ukrainian southern counteroffensive. (mostly the old text, a little tweaked)
2. The Liberation of Kherson and Russian withdrawal from Kherson (9–11 November 2022) refer to the recapture of the city of Kherson and other areas on the western bank of the Dnieper river by the Armed Forces of Ukraine (ZSU) while the Russian Armed Forces withdrew. The areas were in the Kherson Oblast and parts of Mykolaiv Oblast. The withdrawal of Russian forces from, and Ukrainian recapture of Kherson were a result of the 2022 Ukrainian southern counteroffensive during the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.
3. The Liberation of Kherson and simultaneous Russian withdrawal from Kherson (9–11 November 2022) refer to the recapture of the city of Kherson and other areas Kherson Oblast and parts of Mykolaiv Oblast on the right bank of the Dnieper river by the Armed Forces of Ukraine (ZSU), while the Russian Armed Forces withdrew to the left bank. The events were a result of the 2022 Ukrainian southern counteroffensive during the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.
4. The Liberation of Kherson was the recapture of the city of Kherson and other areas on the right bank of the Dnieper river by the Armed Forces of Ukraine (ZSU) from 9 to 11 November 2022, during the Russian withdrawal from Kherson. While the Russian Armed Forces withdrew to the left bank, these areas in Kherson Oblast and parts of Mykolaiv Oblast were retaken by Ukrainian forces. The withdrawal and liberation were a result of the 2022 Ukrainian southern counteroffensive during the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Obviously, many more variations are possible, and I played around with them a bit to see what reads best.

• Option no. #1 is mostly restoring the old text, but putting the liberation first. This would probably be best in line with the WP:NOCON policy to restore the original text if there is no consensus.
• Option no. #2 goes a bit further, implicitly saying the liberation and withdrawal happened simultaneously, and some more concise lead section in general.
• I currently favour option no. #3. It puts Liberation first, but provides an adequate balance between the two terms, says they happened simultaneously without equating them (which we broadly agreed upon above), and doesn't needlessly repeat information (the second sentence has been merged into the first). I have also started preferring "left bank" and "right bank", because as people have pointed out correctly, at Kherson the banks of the Dnipro are more 'northern' and 'southern' than 'western' and 'eastern'. (Incidentally, as far as I'm concerned the article could spell it like Dnipro rather than Dnieper because of WP:STRONGNAT and because coverage of the events generally spell it Dnipro, but that's a whole other discussion). The last sentence simply calls them 'the events', and adds a reference to 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine that had been missing so far.
• Option no. #4 puts Russian withdrawal from Kherson at the end of the sentence, and frames the liberation as an episode happening during the withdrawal, the larger event (which some users have suggested is a better way of saying it), but puts the emphasis/importance on the liberation itself and pushes the withdrawal to the background (which is arguably justifiable given the title discussion outcome).

I'm curious to hear what you and others think; feel free to mix these texts around and put forward your own suggestions, and hopefully we can find the right balance. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:57, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

First of all, thanks for declining to WP:EW over it, as I did earlier. I am modeling it on Liberation of Paris. This did involve a German surrender. The surrender part is mentioned in the opening paragraph. But it's not mentioned in the infobox or bolded at the start of the article. I would not object to mentioning the withdrawal in the opening paragraph. I'm not sure about mentioning both the withdrawal and the counteroffensive though. It might work, but it would also be wordy. It could be better to choose one of the two. Currently we have the counteroffensive. Adoring nanny (talk) 17:06, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

You're welcome. I have to admit that my first urge was to revert your edit, but EW wouldn't help anyone. I prefer to talk things out here, and I'm confident we could come to an agreement. :)

The comparison with Liberation of Paris is an interesting one, but unlike this article, that one doesn't seem to have a name like German surrender of Paris as a frequently used alternative or closely connected term in the way that Russian withdrawal of Kherson does here. Option no. #3 is the least wordy text I could come up with that includes all the relevant facts without repeating anything. What do you think of it? Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 17:15, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

I prefer not doing that. I could live with number 4. But mostly I think we should wait for other opinions. Hopefully they will come. Adoring nanny (talk) 17:25, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

Alright, could you explain which parts of no. #3 and no. #4 you like and which you do not? That could make it easier to establish a text we agree on. I agree it would be helpful if others also voiced their opinions. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 17:29, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

I think the main topic of the article should be at the start. It should be slightly set off from closely related topics. If the main topic were to later become the withdrawal, I would still think that, but the roles of the withdrawal and the liberation would be reversed. I would tend to date the actual liberation to Nov. 11 incidentally. I've just promised someone a trip to the local park. If no one else shows up here within 24 hours or so, I'm OK with it if you go with number 4, or with a version of number 3 that incorporates these thoughts a bit. Adoring nanny (talk) 18:07, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

Alright. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:01, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

3 looks good to me, also props to you both for avoiding the edit warring that seems a mainstay of many of the war articles as of late. BogLogs (talk) 13:00, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your feedback! I've just rewritten the lead section after waiting for additional input, and with Adoring nanny and BogLogs' feedback, I've opted for a mix between options no. 3 and 4.

The Liberation of Kherson (11 November 2022) was the recapture of the city of Kherson and other areas Kherson Oblast and parts of Mykolaiv Oblast on the right bank of the Dnieper river by the Armed Forces of Ukraine (ZSU), while the Russian Armed Forces withdrew to the left bank (known as the Russian withdrawal from Kherson, 9–11 November 2022).[1,3,4,5] The events were a result of the 2022 Ukrainian southern counteroffensive during the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.

The infobox title and dates have been changed as follows:

Liberation of Kherson
(Russian withdrawal from Kherson)
Liberation of Kherson:
11 November 2022[1]
Russian withdrawal from Kherson:
9–11 November 2022[1,2]

This way, we are portraying the liberation and withdrawal as two separate but partially coinciding events/processes, with emphasis on the liberation per title discussion outcome. I hope this is an acceptable compromise that takes all relevant aspects of previous discussions into account. There is already a war going on in Ukraine for far too long; we don't need more unnecessary editwarring on Wikipedia about it if it can be prevented. Greetings, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:09, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

New opening looks great! Thanks for your work on this. Adoring nanny (talk) 14:51, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

You're welcome, thanks for your contribution! Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:44, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Redundancy

Per MOS:REDUNDANCY, "The title of the article need not appear verbatim in the lead if the article title is descriptive". I'd say that definitely applies here, with sentences like The Liberation of Kherson (11 November 2022) was the recapture of the city of Kherson and the Russian Armed Forces withdrew to the left bank (known as the Russian withdrawal from Kherson). I think these sentences should be changed to reflect this guideline and be less clunky - there doesn't need to be a bold version of these alternate titles verbatim with dates next to them when they harm the flow of the lead. I made a since-reverted edit that contains wording I think fits the MOS better. Thoughts? --HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith (talk) 15:33, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 November 2022

The only reasoning for the images and video’s deletion was because they were low-quality (which does not matter) and because one wasn’t in Kherson.

The image of the tank was understandable, it was likely in Kherson Oblast but I’m not going to geolocate where these tanks are from this 20 second video posted on twitter.

I would like to have the images and video back, but if you don’t see it fit, I suggest looking at the “Defense of Ukraine” twitter page, it has lots of free images, some tell where they are, and some are higher quality. 2600:1017:B838:53E6:45EC:8D35:77D9:804B (talk) 13:00, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Colonestarrice (talk) 02:58, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

The video that was removed ("ZSU capture abandoned Russian ammo storage in Blahodatne.webm") was due to a copyvio. It was actually taken from the Defence of Ukraine Twitter page, but they violated the copyright of The Sun / Reuters.

I have restored the images in the infobox, there was nothing 'inappropriate' about them. The tank footage/image has not been geolocated, but it is indeed likely somewhere in right-bank Kherson Oblast. This article may focus on Kherson city, but it explicitly includes the rest of right-bank Kherson Oblast and the de-occupied parts of Mykolaiv Oblast, so the inclusion of the tank image is appropriate. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:57, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Poor quality images should not be used as cover images.

Using images and/or from very poor sources is also not helpful, because if you do, you may be using images that do not even show what you believe, like the image "Entering Infantry of Armed Forces of Ukraine (ZSU)..."

The real coordinates are 48.421329, 27.835353 feel free to look around there. Uwdwadafsainainawinfi (talk) 19:09, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

FYI, this is the 24th Border Commando with their barracks in the background.

No colored ribbons, no guns.

No indication that this is new.

I don't have time for the other pictures, so please be careful what you use. Uwdwadafsainainawinfi (talk) 19:14, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

First, I don't know how you found out those coordinates of File:ZSU entering Kherson.png, but they appear to be correct (I checked on Google Maps). It would be helpful if you explained that in the edit summary, or here on the talk page, preferably by referencing a reliable source (otherwise we have no idea if you have a good reason for removing an image). I'll concede that this image therefore doesn't portray the liberation of Kherson, and can be replaced by another one. I propose File:Today is a historic day, we are regaining Kherson - address by the President of Ukraine. (52493216834).jpg, what do you think of that?

Second, you don't get to decide single-handedly what counts as 'poor quality images' without referring to any sort of standard, let alone being able to provide a better alternative.

Third, if you have any better pictures rather than moving one - File:Volodymyr Zelenskyy took part in hoisting the State Flag of Ukraine in liberated Kherson. (52502054830).jpg - that is already in use elsewhere in the article, be my guest after consulting with me and others here. As it stands, File:Volodymyr Zelenskyy took part in hoisting the State Flag of Ukraine in liberated Kherson. (52502054830).jpg is from several days after the events and does not serve as a proper illustration of the events themselves. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:12, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

PS: I've carried out the replacement of the 2nd image as a temporary measure, I'm awaiting confirmation. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:51, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

I uploaded File:Ukrainian and EU flags in Kherson.jpg and it seems like it would be a good fit somewhere. DinoSoupCanada (talk) 02:12, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Nice. Unfortunately I don't see an obvious and relevant place for it yet. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:38, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

That's fine. DinoSoupCanada (talk) 17:18, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 November 2022

In the sentence "Ukrainian officials estimated half of the Russian soldiers had been withdrawn across the Dnipro by the evening of 10 November", change Dnipro to Dnieper to match the spelling in the rest of the article. 128.227.1.27 (talk) 20:30, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: 'Dnipro' appears to be used 6 times in the article, while 'Dnieper' is only used twice. Colonestarrice (talk) 14:31, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 November 2022

Please add the this image into Aftermath.

File:KMCA Henichesk.jpg

Kherson military-civilian administration officials in Henichesk.

DinoSoupCanada (talk) 02:04, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Where exactly? It fits the "Military and political impact" subsection, but that is already pretty crowded by the Zelenskyy flag-raising photo on the left and the video on the right from the previous section. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:38, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

You're right actually, this goes better in Russian occupation of Kherson Oblast. I've already submitted an edit request there, so this is fine. DinoSoupCanada (talk) 17:18, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Good idea! Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 17:48, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

 Undone: This request has been undone. Colonestarrice (talk) 14:25, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 February 2023

The issue is in the sentence: "On 9 November, Russian general Sergey Surovikin announced the withdrawal of troops from Kherson and the north bank of the Dnieper."

"North bank" is an incorrect term. The correct term is "right bank." In fact, all sources for this sentence use the term "right bank" as well. SSEdwards (talk) 09:14, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

 Partly done: I changed this to western bank to match the sources. The sources clarified that "right bank" was the western bank. Another civilian said: "Visually, nothing has changed. On the right bank [western bank] in Kherson. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:57, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

I disagree with this change even more. Using any cardinal direction is a misnomer when referring to riverbanks. So, any inclusion of it in the articles is a mistake on the author's behalf, refer here: Bank (geography). The most correct way to phrase it is "announced the withdrawal of troops from Kherson and the right bank of the Dnieper." Furthemore, every other usage of the word in this page uses "right bank." SSEdwards (talk) 22:23, 2 February 2023 (UTC)