Talk:List of proxy wars

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To be expanded[edit]

I've started the article and listed a few just to get the ball rolling. I've used the formatting from the List of civil wars. The article still needs alot of work. --2ltben 00:34, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

How about the 1939 Soviet-Japanese clash: Nomonhan or the Battle of Khalkhin Gol, nominally clashes between Mongolia & Manchukou Hugo999 11:01, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

the bush war [edit]

cold war era proxy war in namibia and angola namibia gained indepandance soviets won ANC still rules SA as a direct result. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 105.224.218.247 (talk) 17:29, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Korean War[edit]

How can India be on both the sides of the Korean War? Does not make sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lohray (talkcontribs) 14:04, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

Iran hostage crisis[edit]

Does this belong in this list? The article says that the hostage-takers were considering taking the Soviet embassy but decided against it and doesn't mention any Soviet involvement in the crisis. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.105.64.207 (talk) 05:54, 20 February 2007 (UTC).

I don't believe either Iran Hostage Crisis or Cuban Missile Crisis should be included in the list for the simple reason neither were wars. Davewild 17:37, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

2006 Lebanon War The 2006 Lebanon War? For the reason that Hezbollah can be considered a proxy of Iran and Syria? Fullerov 15:09, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I originally included it on the list for that reason, but it got pushed back into the Arab-Israeli conflict. --2ltben

In what way is the Iraq war a "proxy war"? A proxy war is when two foreign counties support two competing factions in a (usually) civil war. The US is actually sending its own people in; so is al-queda. Any thoughts?--Dudeman5685 (talk) 03:55, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The Coalition are also involved in fighting against Shia Militias that can be considered proxies of Iran. That would be my guess. Fullerov (talk) 15:14, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

American Revolutionary War[edit]

How was the American Revolutionary War a proxy war? Who were the proxies? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.181.197.100 (talk) 21:03, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

arguably the American Revolutionaries were proxies of Britains enemy France. Fullerov (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:32, 27 July 2009 (UTC).

You can argue that the color blue is red, but that doesn't make it true... 98.114.252.16 (talk) 17:51, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
This is a good example of how wrong the concept is. France was involved, but the American rebels were not proxies of the French!!!--Jack Upland (talk) 10:21, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

It shouldn't be on the list since Britain and France fought each other directly. 76.126.247.163 (talk) 10:12, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Can someone please explain the addition of the Cuban Revolution?[edit]

It can be convincingly argued that during the Cold War, Cuba's Marxist regime was a Soviet proxy, just as before 1959 Felgencio Batista was an American proxy dictator. But how was the Cuban Revolutionary War a proxy war? The 26th of July Movement (Fidel Castro's rebels) were not backed by any foreign government, nor where they openly communist either. Their membership and leadership contained a coalition of liberal nationalists, reformers, democrats, socialists and communists opposed to the dictatorship of Batista. It was only after a power struggle in the early 1960s that the communists came out on top.

Can somebody give an explanation, if not I think that the reference should be removed. Batista's forces were an American proxy for awhile, but by 1958 the United States had become unsympathetic to the highly corrupt tyrant, hence the arms embargo enacted against Batista's regime at a time when Castro's than non-communist rebels where gaining momentum. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.239.105.238 (talk) 19:03, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Georgia-Russia[edit]

I wonder whether the 2008 South Ossetia War can be added to this list. NerdyNSK (talk) 04:36, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

"Western World"[edit]

The phrase "Western World" in the "Post Cold War" is really not too clear. One would think it means ALL countries in the western world agree with these wars, however, this is not the case. Individual countries should be listed as with other cases. HuGo_87 (talk) 19:53, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

List way too loose[edit]

As noted in basically all of the comments above, there are many dubious or unclear additions. Perhaps by presenting the information in a table that would include the "proxies" and the powers who used proxies we can reduce confusion and generally improve this list. As it stands now, there are so many things listed that are almost certainly *not* "proxy wars" that the page would be better deleted than left unaltered. 146.201.16.50 (talk) 14:50, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

You've got to be kidding me[edit]

This "list" is biased in the extreme and reeks of POV pushing. When I am back at my home computer and thus can log in my name, I intend to start some major housecleaning on this "list." 98.114.252.16 (talk) 17:48, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Proxy Wars Don't Exist!!![edit]

A proxy is someone who acts for someone else. In these wars, outside powers intervened to some extent, but that doesn't mean the war was merely a square on the chess board. But nevertheless the local people were fighting for their own causes.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:25, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Which is why the common definition of proxy war is so bad. Proxy wars start on their own: they become a proxy war when an outside power intervenes to defend its interest. Compassionate727 (talk) 12:15, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Page improvements[edit]

The page is messy and some conflicts aren't even proxy wars. I propose joining the Middle East conflicts and 2nd Cold War section into one section called "Post-Cold War proxy wars" and improving the Cold War section. FPSTurkey (talk) 17:45, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, it's a terrible mess. I've probably put 30+ hours into trying to improve it, and it just doesn't sort itself out. I do agree with your suggestion though. Compassionate727 (talk) 21:55, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Portuguese Colonial War[edit]

Why the Portuguese Colonial War is a proxy war Portugal is a founding member of NATO and the United States support, together with the USSR the uprisings. Braganza (talk) 18:17, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

HELLO? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Braganza (talkcontribs) 13:43, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Orphaned references in List of proxy wars[edit]

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of List of proxy wars's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "dawn":

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT 20:44, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Orphaned references in List of proxy wars[edit]

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of List of proxy wars's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "CIA":

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT 19:03, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Orphaned references in List of proxy wars[edit]

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of List of proxy wars's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "chanwong":

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT 20:00, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Sri Lanka[edit]

And who supported the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam Braganza (talk) 13:24, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

A lot of things to do.[edit]

The concept of Proxy means that at least one of the Powers is fighting directly with a proxy of the opposite Power. A clear example Vietnam. U.S was a combatant and North Vietnam was a U.R.R.S proxy, this should be indicated in the tables. Mayor Powers in Bold. Whenever they are fighting at the ground or just Supporting a proxy.Mr.User200 (talk) 17:16, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

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What happened[edit]

Some of these new additions make no sense. --FPSTurkey (talk) 12:26, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

No worries, everything is under control. 174.113.214.250 (talk) 04:58, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
The ip address is right some make sense. GoldenRainbow (talk) 11:39, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Before adding a conflict to the list...[edit]

...please check to make sure that it is actually a proxy war! The fact that a foreign power intervened does not, in of itself, make a conflict a proxy war. If the intervening country contributed significant numbers of troops to the conflict, it is not a puppeteer, but it has involved itself directly. The American Revolutionary War is not a proxy war because the various intervening powers, such as France, Spain, and the Netherlands, contributed directly to the conflict. Had they resorted to something else, such as supplying arms, embargoing Britain, and even sending advisers, it would be a proxy war. However, all of these countries committed at least their navies, and some sent ground troops as well, making them direct participants, not puppeteers. -©2016 Compassionate727(Talk)(Contributions) 13:45, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Please also note that the fact that a country is listed as a supporter in the war's infobox is not sufficient referencing. These have a tendency to be inaccurate. Please manually read through the history of the conflict and gauge the various countries' involvement manually. -©2016 Compassionate727(Talk)(Contributions) 14:00, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
Don't worry, Compassionate727. As the ip explained, the article is going to be fine. There's no concern whatsoever. In my defense, the statement you said "a country is listed as a supporter in the war's infobox is not sufficient referencing. These have a tendency to be inaccurate". Half of them are accurate. GoldenRainbow (talk) 11:32, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
Which means half of them aren't. That's not consistent enough to make a good article. -©2016 Compassionate727(Talk)(Contributions) 16:08, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

I would like to chime in and say this list is terrible. I keep reading "This list will be fine everything is under control." but what is that even supposed to mean? TBH I think this whole article should be watermarked so people know not to take it seriously. The American Revolution is a proxy war? Really? This list is nonsense. You could rename this article "List of random wars between 1776 and now" and it would be about as accurate and informative as it is now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.220.168.72 (talk) 20:37, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

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Orphaned references in List of proxy wars[edit]

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of List of proxy wars's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "kurdishwarrior":

  • From Iran crisis of 1946: Michael G. Lortz. (Chapter 1, Introduction). The Kurdish Warrior Tradition and the Importance of the Peshmerga. pp.27-29. [1]
  • From First Iraqi–Kurdish War: Michael G. Lortz. (Chapter 1, Introduction). The Kurdish Warrior Tradition and the Importance of the Peshmerga. pp.39-42. [2]

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT 08:05, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

Orphaned references in List of proxy wars[edit]

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of List of proxy wars's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "GS":

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT 11:00, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

This page's content is not up to par with other conflict lists[edit]

There are a few problems with this page that make it not up to par with other lists of conflicts:

  • Some of the conflicts listed have their status as a proxy war disputed
  • The text Supported by: is used to refer to countries where arms were manufactured, whilst in almost every other page (i.e. a main conflict page such as the Syrian civil war) it only refers to countries that directly and/or vocally support a group or country
  • Several countries listed in the support columns do not actually support the belligerent, i.e. Serbia supporting Gadaffi's government in the Libyan Civil War in 2011; the reference mentions Serbian nationalists sympathizing with Gadaffi, but not the government (therefore not the country)
  • Some information show is disputed, such as Bangladesh (its government) supporting Rohingya mujahideen in Myanmar (Burma)

These should be addressed and there should be a discussion, but a majority of replies to people mentioning problems or disputed information is "There is no problem" or "It's been fixed" when it hasn't

CentreLeftRight 23:08, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Ugh. I would love to overhaul this list, but I sadly don't even know where to start. So many weird claims here. I'd actually support a deletion. --Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 11:44, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

At the very least the page needs updating to reflect the ongoing proxy war in Syria and the recent peace agreement between FARC and the Colombian government. 93.155.221.38 (talk) 16:18, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

It needs more than that. Just for starters, who says the RENAMO insurgency a proxy war between Russia and NATO? --Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 19:10, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
There should be some criteria on what real support is. I propose:
  • direct armed involvement
  • active military advisors
  • significant financial backing during the conflict
  • providers of critical intelligence
I would exclude
  • backing by declarations and speeches (countries do not become part of a conflict by a speech, decree or declaration, such things belong to the realm of diplomacy)
  • votes and vetos in the UN or other significant international instances (voting, promoting an agenda or blocking some resolution is not the same as being supporting a party in war, it just might show some sympathy towards that party)
  • medical and humanitarian aid
  • arms suppliers (as arms supplier might only be doing business and not fighting a proxy war, also for pure economical reasons arm suppliers might not want the conflict to have a winner and end)
Any comments on these criteria?Dentren | Talk 05:35, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

Orphaned references in List of proxy wars[edit]

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of List of proxy wars's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "koT":

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT 18:55, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Support by other nations does not necessarily mean proxy war[edit]

I think this list, although at first glance it has extensive citations, potentially contains a large amount of WP:SYNTH and WP:OR. The only valid source for labeling something a proxy war would be a consensus among experts (in international relations). Merely finding a citation that other nations supported the belligerents in a war is not adequate for the label "proxy war". Only an expert in the field is qualified to apply the label. This article is so extensive it would take a huge amount of work to review each entry for legitimate expert citations. As a reminder, it is not valid on wikipedia to draw conclusions from sources. —DIY Editor (talk) 23:02, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm not aware of any reliable sources that describe the Iran–Iraq War as a proxy war, except perhaps the Iranian conspiracy theorists that describe Iraq as a proxy of the U.S.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 23:07, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
I agree with the two posts above. This article is a train wreck. From looking through its history, it's been problematic for a long time. Nick-D (talk) 07:16, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
Just to expand, a proxy war "is a conflict between two states or non-state actors where neither entity directly engages the other". This doesn't mean that wars where the different sides receive - often marginal - support from other countries are proxy wars. Today I've removed listings such as the Falklands War (a territorial conflict fought exclusively between the two claimants) and Northern Ireland Troubles (a civil war in the UK relating entirely to long-standing religious and nationalistic divisions between the combatants) were somehow proxy wars. I think that this article is a good candidate for WP:TNT deletion as its vast content is largely misleading, and it would need to be reworked from scratch. Nick-D (talk) 11:05, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
I don't think that lists are as good candidates for TNT, as it ought to be possible to prune element by element. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:40, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
I think it's telling that for some of these (former) entries, the only identification as a "proxy war" is that of inclusion in a category. eg Malayan Emergency. GraemeLeggett (talk) 12:22, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
WP:TNT may apply here. I hardly know where to begin. The question is what shouldn't be removed. —DIY Editor (talk) 17:23, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
If it would automatically delete them from the category, right away I would remove the articles on this list that are uncited. With it so large and having so much seemingly unsourced or poorly sourced material, putting that amount of effort into the article would still not prune citations that are not reliable or are not explicit. Isn't this almost grounds for AFD? I'm considering a CFD for the cat for being largely uncited and unjustified. This is not a useful collection of factual attributes about articles. —DIY Editor (talk) 00:14, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
I've just removed a large number of listings which, based on my knowledge, are not considered proxy wars by historians and the like (no citations are provided anywhere to support a claim that the wars were "proxy" conflicts, with the references supporting the greatly over-detailed and frequently highly unlikely claims that various countries were involved). I'm sure that much, much more could be done along these lines. Nick-D (talk) 10:10, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
The concept of "proxy war" is problematic. There are, in my opinion, no real proxy wars. For example, the Korean War is called a proxy war, but really it was a civil war, in which outside powers intervened. And since US troops fought, it is impossible to say that South Korea was the USA's proxy. However, the term "proxy war" continues to be thrown around, because it is an easy analysis, and it makes small wars more explicable and relevant to the audience. Therefore, it is always going to be possible to find a source that says this or that is a proxy war. But I don't think making a list is useful.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:37, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Chaco war -- was it a proxy war?[edit]

Years ago a few historians said it was a proxy war over oil. Recent historians have dropped that theme. "Historians in recent years have found little evidence for these previous narratives about oil" says Bridget Maria Chesterton (2016). The Chaco War: Environment, Ethnicity, and Nationalism. Bloomsbury Publishing. p. 12. . The article by Rafael Archondo also rejects the notion: he says (padon the google translation) "The argument that Standard Oil caused The Chaco War in order to make way for its exports of oil through the Paraguay River to the Atlantic is not only lacking in evidence, but it is refutable. It is also not possible to say that Paraguay was a puppet of Royal Dutch Shell, because this company never came to exploit the oil." Rjensen (talk) 21:36, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

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