Talk:Loving You

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Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved: Vote 8 yes / 2 no, after 26 days Anthony Appleyard (talk) 11:05, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

– The Elvis Presley film is the popular topic, but is it actually the primary topic? Both the film and the album with the same name are popular search terms, but I don't know if the research intends to search the song. George Ho (talk) 06:50, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

  • Support. Indeed. Is it "the" "primary topic", among all of those listed at the current DAB page? Hardly! There is no reason to think there exists a "primary topic" in this case. Certainly not one that is recognisable by the bare name "Loving You", even by those thoroughly familiar with films and somehow granted mystical insight that this article is about a film. Even for them, the article could turn out to be about the 2008 film. Or then again it could be one of a number of songs, or an album. Or even one of several books.
Serve the readers, not the rules.
NoeticaTea? 11:00, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
It's a bit disingenuous to complain about rules not serving our readers, when there is no rule holding us back from doing exactly what you propose in this case. Powers T 14:24, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
Disingenuous?! My suggestion is definitely apposite in these RM discussions. See the very next vote below. It narrowly serves a rule: a rule that was intended to serve the readers, but one that fails to do so if it is applied without good sense – and the goals of this encyclopedia firmly in view. NoeticaTea? 23:42, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
Maybe I'm not clear on what rules you think we'd be serving if this move proposal was rejected. Powers T 00:15, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
  • Support – normal disambiguation of an extremely common and ambiguous title. PRIMARYNAME is unsupportable for such cases. Dicklyon (talk) 06:44, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
    There is no consensus for your claims of unsupportability. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:58, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
If you don't reject PRIMARYTOPIC in such cases as a matter of principle, consider how nearly impossible it is to established that this topic is much more popular than all the others put together. It seems more likely that half the hits counted were for people who went on to the album, and that those two have about equal popularity. And the sum of the rest is certainly not small by comparison either. Dicklyon (talk) 02:48, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
  • Support - Far too many articles with the title for a primary to be supposed, support definition as film and DAB move to Loving You. Judicatus (talk) 09:59, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
    But number of topics for the ambiguous title is not a criterion of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:58, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
    • I have to agree with you by the standard, but with this many articles similarly named would not the change simply be common sense in terms of assisting readers? Judicatus | Talk 21:28, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
  • To JHunterJ: As I told you, numbers for the film are very confusing, as the film is connected to the song and the album by Elvis Presley. Numbers are useless for "Christopher Knight" to determine which topic is primary; the actor himself is not primary. The same could go for the Elvis Presley song... I mean, film. You see the case? Moreover, "Lovin'" and "Loving" are not "red meat" and "Red Meat" or "Chinese rock" and "Chinese Rock". --George Ho (talk) 02:31, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
  • Support; it is nearly inconceivable that the Presley film is primary over the plethora of songs and other works with the title (especially when one of the songs is the film's title song and namesake). Bare number of alternatives may not be a primary topic criterion, but when the alternatives have non-negligible popularity (as they do here), it's inappropriate to presume a primary topic without some sort of evidence. Powers T 14:24, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
  • Support Like Lovin' You (Minnie Riperton song), this article belongs in a more precise namespace. People of my generation would associate more naturally with Minne Ripperton, and the generation before would associate with Elvis. But the fact that Elvis hogs this namespace is unnateral and unhelpful to the entire geography and demography of the potential WP readership. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 02:36, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose, per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC: Loving You is much more likely sought than any other topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined. Stats:
"Loving You"
Loving You has been viewed 17016 times in the last 90 days.
Loving You (disambiguation) has been viewed 1865 times in the last 90 days.
Loving You (album) has been viewed 8826 times in the last 90 days.
Loving You (Ole Ole Ole) has been viewed 581 times in the last 90 days.
Loving You (Nina Girado song) has been viewed 403 times in the last 90 days.
Loving You (Feargal Sharkey song) has been viewed 390 times in the last 90 days.
Loving You (Elvis Presley song) has been viewed 58 times in the last 90 days.
Loving You (2008 film) has been viewed 910 times in the last 90 days.
"Lovin' You"
Lovin' You has been viewed 23288 times in the last 90 days.
Lovin' You (Minnie Riperton song) has been viewed 6442 times in the last 90 days.
Lovin' You (TVXQ song) has been viewed 859 times in the last 90 days.
Lovin' You (The O'Jays song) has been viewed 476 times in the last 90 days.
Lovin' You (Kristine W song) has been viewed 360 times in the last 90 days.
Lovin' You (S.E.S. song) has been viewed 212 times in the last 90 days.
"Luvin' You"
Luvin' You has been viewed 326 times in the last 90 days.
I'm a little uncertain how to process this data while taking into account page moves, but I don't know that it matters, either. The only numbers here that justify the proposed move are for Lovin' You, but that's now a redirect to Loving You (disambiguation), so the implications are unclear; plus, that's "Lovin' You" (with an apostrophe and no g) not "Loving You". Looking at the page views on their face, though, the only challenger for primacy is Loving You (album), but as the associated soundtrack it's so closely related to the movie that it wouldn't likely serve readers to displace the movie article. ENeville (talk) 01:55, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
What has happened in the last 90 days is becoming less relevant. Numbers have changed this month. After Lovin' You was moved to Lovin' You (Minnie Riperton song) on April 11, 2012, number for the Minnie Riperton song became about 390 views average in the last two days, while the ambiguous title "Lovin' You" ...I don't know what to say except "is making the dab page popular". Sometimes, I wonder if Elvis pronounced "Loving" as luv'n or lov'n because of his deep voice. Also, Loving You (1957 film) was created not by me and hits 106 views total this time. --George Ho (talk) 02:19, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
  • Support – normal disambig will help. From the stats, it looks like people viewing Loving You then go to the disambig page more than 10% of the time. This does not seem to me to meet the threshold for a primarytopic claim. Dicklyon (talk) 06:32, 16 April 2012 (UTC) Oops; caught red handed. I love Minnie Riperton that much! Dicklyon (talk) 18:45, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
    Note to closer. This is a double !vote for Dicklyon - unintentional, I'm sure, but nevertheless. Dohn joe (talk) 18:40, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
  • Support. No longer the primary topic. No need to be specific as to when this change occurred, the evidence is overwhelming that it has occurred and is unlikely to reverse. Andrewa (talk) 17:33, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I presumed that the songs got more hits and that I would support this move, but after reading this entire discussion I see that the only evidence regarding PRIMARYTOPIC is that submitted by ENeville (talk · contribs) which supports the current use being the primary topic. I oppose this proposed move accordingly, per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. --Born2cycle (talk) 00:30, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
    • Unfortunately, numbers of the Elvis album and the Elvis film would be very equal, as the dab hatnote includes a link to the album. Whatever happened in the past 90 days... is not easy to interpret when numbers are combined. If we could separate the days and then look at numbers, we must compare two topics of the same day. So far today, the film was viewed 169 times, but this does not imply the readers want to learn about the film; the album was viewed 122 times today. What does this mean? Do they want to learn about first the film or the album? --George Ho (talk) 01:11, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
  • Support per WP:D and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, since it's impossible to tell wether the Elvis film, the Elvis album or the Minnie Riperton song is "highly likely—much more likely than any other topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought", and all three are listed from this DAB page, the DAB should be located at Loving You. Diego (talk) 17:10, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
  • Support. The Minnie Riperton song, as well as obscure topics such as a Korean drama, rank higher than the Elvis film if you google "Loving You" -wikipedia. In March, the song got 7,500 page views, compared to 4,800 for the movie. Kauffner (talk) 03:27, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move discussion in progress[edit]

There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at Talk:Loving You - Requested move and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 11:00, 7 May 2012 (UTC)