Talk:Magtymguly Pyragy/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Magtymguly Pyragy. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Quotation

"Know that what I built,

Is the peg of this world.

Forever it will stay independent,

This is the edifice of the Türkmen."

I removed this. Can somebody cite the reference? It just makes no sense. I read Pyragy's poems. As a Turkmen, I do not believe this is correct translation. thanks. --Atamyrat 07:47, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Portrait

Article says picture is portrait of Magtymguly Pyragy. This it WRONG. There's no any evidence of how poet looked like and portrait was painted how painter imagined him. So I changed image title to "imaginary portrait or Magtymguly Pyragy". --Atamyrat 07:47, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Turkish Wiki

Is there someone who can write about Mahtumkulu in Turkish Wiki? He must be there! Thank you! --User:Osman 13:58, 20 April 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.174.226.86 (talk)

Done--Rapsar (talk) 11:16, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Magtymguly Pyragy. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 11:27, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Magtymguly Pyragy. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

Added archive https://archive.is/20140517100523/http://www.mfa.gov.tm/en/news-en/1108-participation-of-the-delegation-of-turkmenistan-in-the-arrangements-in-honor-of-the-290th-anniversary-of-magtymguly-pyragy to http://www.mfa.gov.tm/en/news-en/1108-participation-of-the-delegation-of-turkmenistan-in-the-arrangements-in-honor-of-the-290th-anniversary-of-magtymguly-pyragy

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 20:56, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Soviet Union-1991-Coin-1-Magtymguly.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:36, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Magtymguly Pyragy/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Whiteguru (talk · contribs) 22:00, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

Starts GA Review; the review will follow the same sections of the Article. --Whiteguru (talk) 22:00, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

Observations

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

It is reasonably well written.
a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

Infobox has 19 links. MOS:INFOBOX says, inter alia, the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article. Much of the material in the infobox links ought be in the article itself. See WP:INFOBOXREF.
There are two archived discussions on this matter, references and External links in the Infobox. References should be in the body of the article.

The general rule is that all facts in the InfoBox should be repeated in the article body, and the reference/cite should appear at that body location, not in the InfoBox. In the rare situation where a fact only appears in the InfoBox (and it is "likely to be challenged" per WP:V) then a citation should be in the InfoBox. For example, Albert Einstein has two footnotes in the infoBox. But, in most well-written articles, all facts in the InfoBox will be elaborated upon in the body.

A key issue here with this infobox is that the material is not repeated in the article. See WP:V Done

It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

Biography section Early life and education needs to give biographical information that is in the infobox. Done
References 11, 18 and 29, Gollanma have many links to trojan websites. Consider using an archived version. Done
There is an amount of minor overlinking in Early life and education. Done
The sense is that steppes, Persian and Arabic languages, madrassah and Bukhara do not need linking; these are common terms not essential for understanding the article. Done
Ditto linking to elegies, Russian Empire, Arabic script. If Magymguly lived from c1724-c1807, it is difficult to understand the need for a link to the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917. Done
Reference 34 appears to go to a home page and not any specific article. Done
References 31, 36, 55, 56, 57, 61, 68, 71 do not follow MOS for references. Done

It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects): b (focused):

"Türkmeniň" (in three languages) is a good inclusion and adds to the veracity of this poet and his love for his motherland.
Reference 49 is a good, explanatory link.
This article claims that Magtymguly is a naqshbandi sufi. Notwithstanding destruction of records, there is nothing in the article to substantiate this, nor give overview of Magtymguly's religious or spiritual views.

It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:

Is this really a good translation? Turkic language references farthings?

Muftis issue justice for a farthing.

It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.:

Article created on 6 July 2004;
175 editors have made 325 edits to this page;
The Guild of Copy Editors has been over the page and completed copyedits;
4697 pageviews in the last 90 days; average of 52 views daily;
no evidence of edit-warring observed in history; page considered stable.

It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

Почтовая марка СССР № 5446. 1983. 250-летие со дня рождения Махтумкули.jpg = not an object of copyright according to article 1259 of Book IV of the Civil Code of the Russian Federation No. 230-FZ of December 18, 2006. Copyright free usage accepted.
USSR-1991-1ruble-CuNi-Magtymguly-b.jpg = not an object of copyright according to article 1259 of Book IV of the Civil Code of the Russian Federation No. 230-FZ of December 18, 2006.
1959 CPA 2364.jpg = not an object of copyright according to article 1259 of Book IV of the Civil Code of the Russian Federation No. 230-FZ of December 18, 2006.
10 manat. Türkmenistan, 2009 a.jpg = not an object of copyright according to the Civil Code of Turkmenistan of July 17, 1998; Article 1061.
KiewMagtymgulyPyragyBüste.jpg = Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International license.

Overall:

Visioncurve A lot of work has gone into this article and much clean-up has taken place over the years. Turkmen, Turkmenistan, and Turkic languages all not being well known, many of the links are good and useful to read.
We need to resolve the links and references in the Infobox and get them into the article body proper Done, and sort the MOS style with the listed references Done. This article needs some content about Magtymguly's religious views and sufi background. --Whiteguru (talk) 02:21, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your masterly review

Thank you for your complete professionalism and slick review. I will take everything you advised into account and will start implementing them immediately. Thank you once again! Take care! --Visioncurve^{Timendi causa est nescire} 06:13, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Miscellaneous Comments

Pyragy's year of birth and death are unknown. See Taylor, Paul Michael (2017-03-04). "Turkic poetic heritage as symbol and spectacle of identity: observations on Turkmenistan's Year of Magtymguly celebrations". Nationalities Papers. 45 (2): 323–324. doi:10.1080/00905992.2016.1260536. ISSN 0090-5992.

Every Turkmen source is subject to state-censorship (esp. post-Soviet era, and when they are produced by scholars under the direct employment of Government) to the extent of not allowing any private press. All such works need to be treated as primary sources. Trained scholars can read between the lines (as in the above publication) but we cannot. As Taylor shows, a lot of Ashirov's work is nonsense and aimed to serve a political purpose.
Unrelated comments: A comparison of the above paper with Taylor's preface to Magtymguly: Poems from Turkmenistan (2014) is a clear evidence of why corporate funding is always harmful (and unethical.)

We know nothing whatsoever about his life apart from whatever might be interpreted from his works — no primary sources survive. Much of the details is Ashyrov's (or other Turkmens') fantasy based on lore. TrangaBellam (talk) 18:05, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
More later. TrangaBellam (talk) 14:41, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
Pinging @Whiteguru: as the GA reviewer. The nominator has been already notified. TrangaBellam (talk) 18:12, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

I completely disagree with the above statement. Annagurban Ashyrov holds PhD in philology and had worked at the Turkmen National Institute of Manuscripts for decades. His research and publications on the subject started primarily during the Soviet era, and his latest works are merely based on the research he conducted prior to 1984. Most information found in his books are well sourced and contain numerous citations from relevant articles and books of such Soviet academicians and authors as A.Samoylov, V.Lebedev, V.Barthold and H.Suleymanov (see Ashyrov's 2014 book, materials of which were used in the article). However, if you were looking for sources of "western" origin in the page and found almost none, it's down to the fact that Magtymguly's life and poetry was not studied as extensively by western scolars as other prominent literary figures of Central Asia such as Nava'i or Fuzuli for some uncertain reasons. However, I still would not have employed such strong wording as: fantasy based on lore, nonsense and etc. --Visioncurve^{Timendi causa est nescire} 05:54, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

I am also removing your biased, "better source needed" tag, that you placed even after the info taken from Rafis Abazov, Youssef Azemoun and Bakulin (the works of the first two were even cited by your adored Paul M. Taylor). --Visioncurve^{Timendi causa est nescire} 06:24, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Your (or my) personal opinions are immaterial - I had provided a high-quality source, in support of my claims. Ph.D. scholars, who had worked for decades in the National Institute of Manuscripts, have held multiple conferences on Ruhnama and claimed extraordinary things. Publications by the Miras Institut have traced back Niyazov to Prophet Muhammad. Shall we use them in our articles on the subjects? Acc. to policies, the tags stay unless the underlying issues are satisfactorily resolved.

This is not exactly a problem restricted to Turkmenistan - consult Shoshana Keller's works on the production (and circulation) of history in post-soviet Uzbekistan. Fwiw, it is not that I don't use Soviet (or post-Soviet) sources in writing articles. And, I do not adore any scholar - such tangent comments distract from the issue. TrangaBellam (talk) 11:30, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

I purposely removed my last post (you have restored it) since I hadn't had time yet to erase those zillions of tags you vigorously placed at the end of almost each sentence. I would've certainly reposted it later, don't worry. However, I believe that your tags are there to serve only one purpose - to discredit the whole article. Also, I have a strong intention to request another GA reviewer for the Merv article in a little while since I strongly believe that you might have a foregone conclusion regarding it and that is: "failed for GA". (I learned it later that was exactly what you did). Also, I have noticed an interesting pattern in your history of contributions, which makes me think that you have been tracing me all the way ever since you reached this page (see your history of contributions, articles such as that about Tuqaq and etc, where you choose to call avoiding close paraphrasing as misrepresentation). I don't have to explain it to you that it's (pursuing someone) not in line with Wikipedia guidelines. --Visioncurve^{Timendi causa est nescire} 11:15, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

These comments are irrelevant - the talk-page is only about resolving content-disputes. Analysis of my motivations or activities at other articles belong elsewhere - probably at WP:AN and other talk-pages. One of my first articles was on Cinema of Turkmenistan, and most of the content at Ruhnama was drafted by me; I have also created about a dozen articles on Turkmen places etc. and my user-page mentions something relevant. Adding one more source, in my support:

The president also decided to link the Institute of History to the presidential apparatus in order to guide and control the revision of history. In 2000, he seized and eliminated the manuscript of the multivolume History of Turkmenistan, which he had originally commissioned. In 2002, he prohibited access to the Russian-language publications of the National Library of Turkmenistan.
Since independence, Turkmen culture has been reduced to its simplest expressions [...] In 2001, Niyazov went so far as to prohibit theater, ballet, opera, and classical and contemporary music, which he labeled “against the spirit of the Turkmen people. Literature in particular was targeted by the regime [...] All national writers were excluded from literature textbooks in favor of one or two figures selected by Niyazov, most often himself or the poet Magtymguly.
— Peyrouse, Sebastien (2012). Turkmenistan: Strategies of Power, Dilemmas of Development. London: Routledge. p. 98. ISBN 9781315698571.

Our article notes, His father was a prominent poet, [..], a local teacher and mullah, and was highly regarded by his people.

The father of Magtymguly was a [very rich] Turkmen Tuka passing his life in the real Turkmen manner, pillaging Persian provinces and soling prisoners in Khiva.
— From a manuscript of Aleksander Chodzko, then a Russian interpreter at Rasht, as quoted in Richard, Francis (2015). "Aleksander Chodzko and Magtymguly Turkman Songs": 3. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help)

Youssef Azemoun, who teaches at some barely-known university and claims to have had remortgaged his house to publish the second (and final) volume of Journal of Makhtumkuli Studies, accuses Chodzko of misleading his readers. Even such a sympathetic scholar has to concede:

Archives yield very little information about Makhtumkuli and what we know about him comes above all from his own poems and from a wealth of popular stories mainly from people living in the vicinity of Garry Gala where many Goklengs [his supposed tribe] and people related to Makhtumkuli live.

So, Vision Curve's objection to my statement about much of details about Pyragy's life being sourced from lore does not stand scrutiny.

One article from 1872 (Bakulin) has been deemed as fit enough to comment on present attitude of Turkmen people towards the subject.

Nothing about variant attitudes in Soviet era, Niyazov's regime etc.

Most importantly, we have almost nothing about manuscripts — most of them have vast discrepancies for what is the same poem, and multiple folk-singers had interpolated their own content into the supposed works of Magtymguly. The Soviet destruction is patent fiction - more on that, later. TrangaBellam (talk) 14:09, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

I can't quite understand what makes you believe that opinion of a Polish poet (Aleksander Chodzko) in the service of the Russian embassy in Persia in the 19th century is better than those provided in the article. Moreover, you most probably know that according to WP:RSAGE, older sources may be inaccurate because new information has been brought to light, new theories proposed, or vocabulary changed. Research article published by the Northern Federal University named after M.Lomonosov (Russia) in the science journal "Meridian" (issue #16 (40), 2020), titled "Creativity of the Turkmen poet Makhtumkuli in the interpretation of the Polish poet A.Khodzko", states: "The author (A.Chodzko) collected materials for the book from oral legends". I think that contradicts your own perception of a reliable source, which should make you go back to the drawing board and come up with something better than that. However, I still believe that the best of both worlds is to try to find a compromise by either polishing the article or remove specific statements deemed too improbable rather than you falling short of your ambitious goal to strip this page from its GA status. --Visioncurve^{Timendi causa est nescire} 13:43, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

You need to get better at comprehending others - I was making a larger point about how your objection to my statement about much of details about Pyragy's life being sourced from lore does not stand scrutiny. Why did I mention Azemoun's rejection of Chodzko, otherwise? I do not have any issues with the part. line based on Chodzko's note. TrangaBellam (talk) 13:56, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Niyazov's Turkmenistan witnessed a resurgence in scholarship on Turkmen traditions (or, "invented traditions.") Annual conferences were held on a variety of topics—from Ruhnama to Makhtumkuli to Horses to Geok Tepe— and exclusive institutes were funded to study them. However, the scholarship was almost always mediocre and tainted with extreme nationalist bias.
— Looking back at Future: History in Central Asia, S. Abykov, C.S.A, Almaty, 2020

In the early post-Soviet era, nation builders engaged in a process of national revival aimed at rediscovering the ancestral origins of the population (Durdyev 1991). To that end, ofﬁcial propaganda identiﬁed a number of “symbols of past glories” (Akbarzadeh 1999, 275) and historical ﬁgures as central elements of Turkmenistan’s nationalistic narratives (Kuru 2002, 75). Poet Magtymguly was perhaps the most powerful of these symbols [...]
— After the Czars and Commissars : Journalism in Authoritarian Post-Soviet Central Asia, edited by Eric Freedman, and Richard Shafer, Michigan State University Press, 2011

To mobilize the majority groups’ support and foster their attachment to the new national identities, the Central Asian regimes assisted by the local academics, embarked on the task of rewriting national histories and creating appealing myths impressing on the majority groups a feeling of strong attachment to the present geographical location of the country. [...] The governments chose key historical figures— Tamerlane in Uzbekistan, Manas in Kyrgyzstan, the ruler of the Samanid Empire Islamil Saman in Tajikistan, and the spiritual leader of Turkmen Magtymguly Pygary— to boost the national pride of the majority group and spotlight the attractive features of the majority group’s national character.
— Nationalism and Identity Construction in Central Asia : Dimensions, Dynamics, and Directions, edited by Mariya Y. Omelicheva, Lexington Books, 2014.

I argue that the creation of history in Turkmenistan has been centralized in the hands of the president and those close to him by the so-called court historians and editors [...] Alternative interpretations were excluded.
The degradation of the educational system, as well as the intensified role of ideology in history resulted in a certain vulgarization of historical research. New historians and ideologists no longer turned to the sources but often took (or were forced to take) as their basis a simplified interpretation of history created by the great leader and those close to him.
— Horák, Slavomír (2015-04-03). "The Battle of Gökdepe in the Turkmen post-Soviet historical discourse". Central Asian Survey. 34 (2): 149–161. ISSN 0263-4937.

Makhtumkuli's own manuscript has not been found so far. [..] A. Ashyrov gave the figure of 700 poems belonging to Makhtumkuli (presumably including poems recorded from folk singers and a collection of Gylych Mulliyev's 217 poems attributed to Makhtumkuli). Many Makhtumkuli manuscripts have collections of poems of other Turkmen classical poets. This has sometime caused confusions in the identity of poems.
There has always been an official approach in Turkmenistan towards matters related to Makhtumkuli, which has created confusion in many aspects of the study of the creative work of this poet. Makhtumkuli has not used the word Turkmen in his poems. Only in one place did he use a word which in manuscripts could be construed as "Tiirkmenler". It has not been written legibly.
I have not seen the word "döwlete" meaning to one state in any manuscript. This line in manuscripts reads as follows: "Bir pa:dişa: (/_pa:dişa:ha) gulluk etsek bä:şi:miz." i.e. "I wish all five of us served one king."
[A]ttempts to manipulate the poems and ideas of Makhtumkuli, continues. By a recent decree, names of a few more Turkmen tribes had to be added to the third line of the poem above.
— Azzemoun Y. The Historical Significance of Makhtumkuli and his Manuscripts in The golden cycle : proceedings of the John D. Soper Commemorative Conference on the Cultural Heritage of Central Asia, UCLA Conferences Center at Lake Arrowhead, October 1-4, 1998. ed: Andras J.E. Bodrogligeti. Sahibqiran 2002.

Our article propagates the same (political) manipulation. @Visioncurve: fyi. TrangaBellam (talk) 14:19, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Mağtımgulı’nın yazma nüshalarındaki şiirlerinde “Türkmen” sözü bir defa bile kullanılmamıştır. Şair, Türkmen boylarını birleşmeye çağırır; ama Türkmen sözünü kullanmaz [...] Bunları, Mağtımgulı’ya yakıştıramayız. Görüldüğü gibi şiirde kafiye yok, vezin de yok, aşağıda görüleceği gibi tutarlı anlam da yok. Bu hâliyle de (neredeyse hükümet zoruyla) bu şiir Mağtımgulı’ya mal ediliyor.
N. Aşırpur Meredov’un elli yıl çalışıp hazırladığı Mağtımgulı Divanı’nın eleştirel metninin Türkmenistan’da basılmasına izin verilmedi. [..] Bu da bugün elimizde bulunan en güvenilir metin. Bu müellifin Mağtımgulınıñ Düşündiriliş Sözlüği adlı kitabı da İran’da basılmıştır.
Türkmenlerin ve diğer Orta Asya halklarının halk ozanları seyirci ve dinleyiciyi etkilemek için söyledikleri türküleri Mağtımgulı’ya mal etmişler. Sovyet Dönemi’nde, Türkmenistan’da birçok düşük seviyeli ve Mağtımgulı’ya ait olmayan şiirler Komünist Partinin onayıyla şairin divanına dâhil edilmiştir. İfşa edilmiş olmalarına rağmen hâlâ geçerliliğini devam ettiren bu şiirlerin bazıları Sovyet Dönemi’nin ideolojisine uygun olarak sunulmuştur. Hazırlanan divanlar da şairin yanlış istinsah edilen şiirlerinden, halk ozanlarının bazı türküleri ve kulaktan kulağa gelen ve halk arasında yaygın olan bazı şiirlerden oluşmaktadırlar.
Mağtımgulı her yönüyle inceleniyor ancak divanının düzgün metninin ortaya çıkması konusunda fazla çalışılmıyor [..] Metnin doğruluğu üzerinde de daha çok çalışmak gerekir.
— Azmun, Y. A. (2012). Türkmen Şairi Mağtımgulı ve Onun Eserleri Hakkında Bilinmesi Gereken Konular-2. Türk Dili Araştırmaları Yıllığı - Belleten, 60 (2), 5-28.

Unreliable Sources

I will remove the following sources absent any forthcoming explanation on their reliability:

Gudar (2016)
Taylor (2014)

TrangaBellam (talk) 10:02, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

I would also remove the Blackwell and Abazov ones. Visioncurve^{Timendi causa est nescire} 11:10, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Blackwell is unreliable, I agree. Not sure about Abazov - use your discretion. TrangaBellam (talk) 11:16, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Plagiarism

There is consensus that the examples constitute violation of copyright. Thanks, TrangaBellam (talk) 15:10, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Cited Source (copyrighted):

yüzyıl Türkmen hayatını tasvir ettiği şiirlerine bakılarak devrin sosyal hayatının analizi yapılabilir. Toplumsal huzursuzluğa sebep olan bazı din âlimi ve idarecilerden, fakirleri ezen zenginlerden, rüşvet yiyen kethüdâlardan şikâyet şiirindeki motiflerden bazılarıdır.

Google Translate:

An analysis of the social life of the period can be made by looking at the poems in which he describes the Turkmen life of the 19th century. Complaints about some religious scholars and administrators who cause social unrest, the rich who oppress the poor, and the bribe-taking kethüdas are some of the motifs in the poem.

VisionCurve's edit:

An analysis of the social life of the period can be made by looking at his verses where he describes the Turkmen life of the era. Complaints about some religious scholars and rulers who cause social unrest, the rich who oppress the poor, and the bribe-taking Kethüdas are some of the motifs found in his poetry.

Since, VC had (earlier) accused me of "bullying", I will instead let a neutral audience to comment/decide on the accuracy of my allegation. Regards, TrangaBellam (talk) 12:16, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Cited Source (copyrighted):

Kötüye ve zalime karşı savaşı, bağımsızlığa olan tutkuyu dile getiren sesiyle Köroğlu ve Dadaloğlu’nu hatırlatan şair, bir derviş edasıyla halkı irşat etmeye çalışırken de Hoca Ahmed Yesevî tavrını yansıtmaktadır. Hikmetli şiirleri atasözü gibi ezberlenip halk arasında yayılmıştır.

Google Translate:

Reminding Köroğlu and Dadaloğlu with his voice expressing the war against evil and oppressor and the passion for independence, the poet reflects the attitude of Hodja Ahmed Yesevi while trying to guide the people in a dervish manner. His wise poems were memorized like proverbs and spread among the people.

VisionCurve's edit:

He reflects the attitude of a Turkic Sufi and mystic Khwaja Ahmad Yasawi, trying to guide the people in a dervish manner. His wise poems were memorized like proverbs and spread among the people.

TrangaBellam (talk) 12:35, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

It is immaterial whether this translation was done by a human or a machine. If the original source is copyrighted then so is a translation of it. Phil Bridger (talk) 12:55, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
Hello. I'm not sure if it counts as plagiarism if it's translated? Since those are technically different words/sentences now. Moreover, a translation machine can come with different translations, right? --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:59, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
As far as Google goes, it gives highly consistent translations. I do not know for DeepL. TrangaBellam (talk) 13:02, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
According to WP:PLAG, plagiarism is taking credit for someone else's writing as your own, including their language and ideas, without providing adequate credit. The University of Cambridge defines plagiarism as: "submitting as one's own work, irrespective of intent to deceive, that which derives in part or in its entirety from the work of others without due acknowledgement". Did I pass it off as my own work? NO. Sources were provided properly after each sentence or paragraph in line with WP:V. Also, according to WP:NONENGPLAG, if the source is in a language other than English, regardless of whether the work is free, the obligation remains to give credit to authors of foreign language texts for their creative expression, information and ideas (which I did). Only if the work is unfree, direct translation is likely to be a copyright violation. It isn't direct translation, sorry. Visioncurve^{Timendi causa est nescire} 13:49, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

So, your sentences are not a direct translation yet coincides with Google Translate? TrangaBellam (talk) 14:06, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

However, I would also like to point out that if a competent administrator concludes that these additions violate Wikipedia policy in any way, I have no objection to removing the edits in question.Visioncurve^{Timendi causa est nescire} 14:04, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
I've had a look and it shouldn't take a "competent administrator" to explain such a simple copyright violation. While there was a link to the source, copying from it in this way (whether translated or not) is still a copyright violation. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 14:30, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Please go ahead and remove the copied translation. It's a violation of our copyright policy, even if you re-worded it a bit. Thanks, — Diannaa (talk) 15:02, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
(after edit conflict) As is far too common on Wikipedia people are confusing plagiarism and copyright. You can avoid plagiarism for copied content by citing the source, but it is still a copyright violation to copy or translate anything that is copyrighted. Phil Bridger (talk) 15:05, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.