Talk:Mariah Carey/Archive 10

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Food

Mariah Carey states in "Good Morning America" that she does indeed enjoy her cereal with the cereal before the milk. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.134.118.72 (talk) 19:25, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

"As Carey's friendship with Starr grew, so did her interest in helping Carey succeed in the industry."

Is that sentence supposed to make sense??? First of all, the subject is FRIENDSHIP. What does "Her" refer to??

The sentence should read "As Carey's friendship with Starr grew, so did STARR'S interest in helping Carey succeed in the industry." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.21.154.235 (talk) 06:21, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

It was badly phrased. I've changed it to something clearer. Thanks. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 21:02, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 14 October 2013

Despite any sources who say otherwise, Mariah was born on March 27, 1970. Her own mother has said so in interview with Oprah in 1999. 68.193.63.129 (talk) 00:38, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Not done: This sounds contentious. Please form a consensus of how to include this with the other editors who are interested in this article. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 02:47, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

I contend it. 1969 long predates Miss Carey's comments, by at least a decade. 1969 was listed with the US Copyright Office before Mariah ever signed with Sony. I would highly contend Miss Carey simply stated what her daughter wanted. Plus, 1970 is difficult to fit with a1987 high school graduation year. This would have Mariah graduating a full year before she turned 18 - and Mariah has freely admitted she barely passed high school. Graduating a year early is not possible. Then, there's the People Magazine claim of 1969... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.35.161.105 (talk) 01:02, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Mariah Carey celebrates Christmas with another dictator Controversy

The pop star's concert for Angola's president isn't the first time she's entertained a despot...

http://www.theguardian.com/music/shortcuts/2013/dec/22/mariah-carey-celebrates-christmas-dictator — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.55.19.147 (talk) 22:03, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

The second paragraph in Mariah Carey#Philanthropy and other activities mentions the concert for Muammar Gaddafi, with reference #360 to an earlier Guardian article. Are you suggesting something further should be added to the article? GoingBatty (talk) 00:02, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

I do not think it has caused that much of a mayhem that we should start reporting the concert in a negative way. Third party media hasn't extensively reported it. —Indian:BIO · ^{[[[User talk:IndianBio|ChitChat]] ]} 10:53, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Edit war January 4, 2014

Jalynn98 is repeatedly removing cited information, such as this diff. I am up against WP:3rr, would some other editors review this change, and add the properly cited information back if appropriate? —Josh3580_talk/hist 22:18, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 January 2014

Mariah Carey born in 1970 look -> http://mstrendy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/mariah-carey-twins-birth-certificate.jpg Thank You. 187.18.230.13 (talk) 20:36, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, this is mildly interesting. It purports to be a birth certificate. But of course confecting a JPEG of a birth certificate is a fairly trivial task. And this JPEG is for some reason not in a music website but instead within the website of a retailer of women's clothes. If the birth certificate is genuine and of interest, then we can expect that what it says will be written up in a reliable secondary source, which can be cited in the article. -- Hoary (talk) 01:20, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Birth year

Being that today is her birthday and multiple sources are claiming she has turned 44 (while I can't find any saying she's turned 45)... isn't it about time we removed the 1969 date? Many sources in the past have listed that 1969 date but you won't find them going back to correct their old information. Seems like the media all figured out the correct year (1970). My copy and paste is being wacko right now, otherwise I'd post links.. but a google/bing search for "Mariah Carey" or "Mariah Carey birthday" today brings up a bunch of sources all going with 1970. Gloss • talk 14:25, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

And many other sources including highly WP:RS magazines and even her hometown newspaper say 1969. Google ""mariah carey" born 1969" and you'll get nearly a half-million hits.

The current phrasing is the consensus from a long and comprehensively discussed an RfC. See above. The whole purpose of an RfC is to reach consensus and close the argument. This is settled matter. --Tenebrae (talk) 14:32, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

It was all a ton of TLDR. I don't care too much either way, was just looking for a simple answer. So thanks.. I think. Gloss • talk 14:37, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Her mum said in an interview with Oprah that Mariah was born in 1970. I just made the change but was reverted.  — ₳aron 18:33, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

I know I'm late on this, but Calvin where can this interview be found? Given how many reliable sources indicate a 1970 birth and many other reliable sources indicate a 1969 birth, it looks like the only way we can find out for certain is either that or by accessing Mariah's birth certificate. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 04:55, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Just YouTube "mariah carey mum oprah". Didn't her birth certificate surface online a few years ago?  — ₳aron 10:12, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

From what I can find, it was the birth certificates of her twins that leaked online. I did find this video stating she was born 1970. I know there was a lengthy conversation about this, but I have a new proposal:

In the intro, we include sources that state 1970, and also include a note saying something like "While multiple reliable sources state Carey was born in 1969, her mother confirmed in an interview with Oprah Winfrey that Carey was born in 1970" and include the link to this if needed.

This is similar to the case of Will Smith, where a note in the intro indicates he stated that his middle name was "Carroll" while multiple reliable sources gave it as "Christopher". XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 17:35, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

At 2:26, Mariah's mother does point to Mariah and says, "In 1970, when she was born...." Since family members would certainly be recruited to shave a year off someone's age, and since official documents like her driver's license and school records say 1969, I'm wondering if, to adapt XXSNUGGUMSXX's idea, we use the Demi Moore model, re: Moore's name: After giving cites for both positions add, "Carey's mother says 1970," with this Oprah/YouTube cite. --Tenebrae (talk) 01:02, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I doubt family would give out the wrong age (unless said family members have poor memory and/or are notorious for lying), and so far I haven't seen any photos of her school records or license. There is the Demi Moore model. If we get a photo of Mariah's birth certificate, that would be surefire proof. However, only info on her twins' birth certificates have been revealed. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 01:10, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

In the footnote is a quote from People magazine, which profiled her early in her career, saying editors saw her driver's license, spoke with school administrators to confirm her school records, and also confirmed her birthdate with her manager, who all gave 1969. Also, her hometown paper gives 1969. The mother's comment has to be put into perspective against all that. What do you think? Should we add a sentence about the mother, a la Demi? --Tenebrae (talk) 23:46, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I checked that ref and found 2 problems: 1) It does not contain such a quote. 2) I see no photos of such records. I'm willing to go a la Demi Moore or a la Will Smith. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 23:55, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Not sure you hit the right link. People gave the information to a database at http://www.nndb.com/people/115/000023046/#FN1, which is linked to from the word "specified" in the footnote.

But we seem to be in agreement. I'll go ahead and add the mom's comment and the YouTube link. --Tenebrae (talk) 00:02, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

My oops: That YouTube link was a copyvio and got reverted. --Tenebrae (talk) 00:11, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I reverted that, as the video was not uploaded or hosted by the copyright owner. Copyright violations should in no circumstances be linked to. If you can find that video hosted somewhere by Oprah or the TV network, or discussed in an article by a reliable source, then that could be appropriately used as a reference. Adabow (talk) 00:12, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

WP:RSN has declared NNDB unreliable, though that link does contain the quote but no photos. Therefore we don't have quite solid evidence with such a link even if it wasn't declared unreliable. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 00:24, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

True, though in this case we're not citing NNDB data but a quote from People via that site. And as you correctly imply, that one citation itself is not definitive — that's why it's just one of several cites on both sides of the question. --Tenebrae (talk) 14:32, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

If including People, I would at least remove the quote NNDB uses. For all we know, due to NNDB's unreliability it wouldn't surprise me if the site made that quote up on its own. Personally, I recommend using something like Los Angeles Times in place of it or her hometown paper Newsday. Those provided more context for a 1969 birth than People did. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 15:47, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Associated acts

My additions towards the associated acts keep getting reverted. Go If there is a consensus when these artists: Brenda K. Starr, Trey Lorenz, Allure, Da Brat, Boyz II Men, and Whitney Houston can be added along with Jermaine Dupri. All the respective artists I added have Mariah Carey as a notable associated act on their info boxes. Backendgaming (talk) 05:09, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

You need to provide third party reliable sources for this. Not your own words or other Wikipedia articles. Associated acts are those who have been associated for a long time with an artist. Like Breakfast Club for Madonna, Lady Starlight for Lady Gaga, Destiny's Child for Beyonce etc. One/two time collaborations with an artist does not make them associated acts and that is how the consensus is across all the musical pages in Wikipedia. Now you need to make points as to how these artists can be listed as associated acts with their one time collaborations. —Indian:BIO · ^{[ ChitChat ]} 05:12, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

It's not as simple as "associated for a long time", though those are good samples. Any of the following also constitutes associated act:

• Has worked on a collaborative album together (i.e. Jay-Z and Kanye West)
• Has been part of a group or band (i.e. Gene Simmons with Kiss, Billie Joe Armstrong with Green Day)
• Have frequently collaborated with one another (i.e. Pitbull and Jennifer Lopez)

Producers and lyricists are generally not considered associated acts unless they contribute vocals or something, so for example Dr. Luke and Max Martin would not constitute as associated acts for Katy Perry, and DJ White Shadow would not count as one for Lady Gaga. Snuggums (talk • contributions) 05:18, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Driving the point home, gooooo Snuggums! :P —Indian:BIO · ^{[ ChitChat ]} 05:24, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you :P Snuggums (talk • contributions) 05:26, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

List of Associated Acts

Jermaine Dupri

• No question, long time collaborator and produced numerous song's through Carey's career.

Brenda K. Starr

• Mariah Carey sang live background vocals for Starr, and she helped Carey secure a recording contract by giving a demo tape of hers to Columbia Records executive Tommy Mottola at a party.[harvnb|Nickson|1998|pp=22][[[#CITEREFNickson1998|Nickson 1998]], pp. 61]
• Basically, Starr played a role into helping Carey jump-start her music career starting in the late 80's.

Trey Lorenz

• Featured Supporting singer of Mariah Carey throughout various tours in Carey's career He first appeared on her first promotional tour in 1990, and the following year he provided background vocals on her album Emotions. Lorenz again served as Carey's backing singer on her March 16, 1992 appearance on the television show MTV Unplugged. Lorenz and Carey also sang a cover of the Jackson 5's "I'll Be There" - a duet at Michael Jackson's memorial service on July 7, 2009.[1]
• Recorded a critically successful self-titled debut album. The single "Someone to Hold", which he co-wrote and co-produced with Carey.
• Supported Mariah Carey on her albums and concert tours again in 1997, including a featured spot in the 2003 Charmbracelet World Tour, which he co-wrote with Carey and Cory Rooney. He was again featured in Carey's 2006 The Adventures of Mimi Tour, doing background vocals and singing three songs, "Never Too Much", "A House Is Not a Home" and "Crazy", during one of her many costume changes.
• Previously signed to Carey's short-lived imprint label, MonarC.

Allure

• Signed to Carey's Crave Records in the 90's and Carey helped with the production of their first album, Allure. [2]
• I believe this group can be left off as they are no longer associated with Carey and become more fringe within the music industry since their debut.

Whitney Houston

• Collaborated with Carey on "When You Believe" (US No. 15, UK No. 4), a duet with Mariah Carey for 1998's The Prince of Egypt soundtrack, which also became an international hit as it peaked in the Top 10 in several countries and won an Academy Award for Best Original Song.[3]
• Has complimented her and mentions Houston as an influence.[4][5][6]
• Was close friends and had a strong relationship with the late singer.[7][8]
• Helped pave the way to showcase Carey's vocal talent.[9]

Da Brat

• Featured on several remixes with Carey including Always Be My Baby, Honey, Heartbreaker, I Still Believe, and Loverboy. See Da Brat discography for more info.
• Onstage guest on Mariah Carey's The Adventures of Mimi Tour in Atlanta, New York City, Long Island, Washington DC, Chicago, and Los Angeles.
• Co-wrote a song with Mariah Carey back in 2007 called "O.O.C." which appears on E=MC² and contributes backing vocals on the track signifying her sixth collaboration with Carey including remixes.
• Is close friends with the singer.[10] [11] [12] [13]

Boyz II Men - One time collaboration back in the 90's but still listed as an associated act in the article infobox. This group can be left off.

Backendgaming (talk) 06:08, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

As I said before, producers generally do not count as associated acts and Jermaine certainly doesn't in this instance. Snuggums (talk • contributions) 13:58, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Lemme break it down person to person for Backendgaming. Dupri, producer of many of her songs, but not associated with Carey as vocalist. Brenda, was the instigator behind Carey's career, how is that even considered associated act? Trey, again supporting acts for Carey can't be associated acts can they? The same clause about the producers come along. Whitney, definitely a big no. They collaborated only once and they were "supposedly" friends in life. That in no way makes one an associated act. Neither does calling each other as influences. Da brat, you kinda hit the nail on your own coffin saying that he is friends with Mariah Carey and that he was a remixer of some of her tracks. By that logic every goddamn remixer out there is associated act for every other artist. Snuggums set a pretty concise parameter as to what can and cannot be supporting acts and I'm afraid none of them pass that. —Indian:BIO · ^{[ ChitChat ]} 15:10, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Mariah's Birth Year

I own two biography books of Mariah Carey, which are Mariah Carey Revisited: The Unauthorized (1998), and Mariah Carey, Her Story (1995),in Both books it has March 27th 1970 being her birth date. Also I own a few magazine's such BOP,Elle,Tiger Beat; that also states her birth date being March 27th 1970, in the articles, which were interviews. Also the 1969 was the year Patricia Carey (Mariah's mother) got pregnant with Mariah Carey,precisely on July 4th, that is why Mariah wrote the song 4th of July on the Butterfly album. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Draper38 (talk • contribs) 00:33, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

What sources say Patricia conceived Mariah on July 4, 1969, Draper38? The vast majority of sources I have seen say she was born 1970, but a while ago it was determined that both should be included. Snuggums (talk / edits) 00:48, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

@SNUGGUMS: I agree, and I (hopefully) have found something that should lay this to rest. Volume 2 of the United States Public Records (1970-2009) lists a Mariah Carey, born March 27, 1970, as living at 90 Franklin Street, New York City. Obviously these celebrity addresses are all over the internet, and it checks out with The New York Times who has an article on her apartment building. A Mariah Carey was born in 1969, but on March 2, so this doesn't check out, nor does her current residence. —JennKR | ☎ 01:34, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Impressive findings, Jenn! The only more official thing I could think of would be gaining a copy if her birth certificate. Let's see what Petergriffin9901, Calvin999, and IndianBio have to say. Snuggums (talk / edits) 01:41, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Mariah's mum said on Oprah that Mariah was born in 1970.  — ₳aron 16:30, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

I always believed it was 1970. Only thing I ever saw for 69' was an apparent article People published with her ID? Or something of that nature. I thing 1970 is the way to go.--PeterGriffin • Talk2Me 06:33, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

NNDB (which is an unreliable source per multiple RSN discussions) said People published her ID or something, but I can't find any People article talking about her records or anything. 1970 it is. Snuggums (talk / edits) 12:04, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

No, not without another RfC — see the admin-closed RfC above. Multiple other sources, including her own hometown paper, Newsday, which has covered her form the beginning give 1969. --209.122.114.237 (talk) 16:40, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Edit request: Archive of dead link

The Newsday Glenn Gamboa link (footnote 4) is dead or elsewhere on the live site. Here is the Oct. 14, 2013, archive link: https://web.archive.org/web/20131014201804/http://www.newsday.com/entertainment/fanfare/li-music-hall-of-fame-recognizes-local-talent-1.884107 . Someone please add. --209.122.114.237 (talk) 16:48, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Date of Birth

I know Mariah personally and she was in fact born in 1970 108.243.213.99 (talk) 13:51, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Not done: Wikipedia doesn't make use of claims of personal knowledge, I'm afraid. We document what is stated in reliable sources that readers can verify for themselves. The footnote (FN1) lists sources for both years, so that it how it must stand. Sorry. --Stfg (talk) 16:03, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Fine to go with RS. I do note have Nickson 1998 at hand to check if it gives the conflicting birth dates, but would be surprised if it does. I do have the following RS giving March 27, 1970: IMDBCharmerNickson 1995Shapiro 2001Nickson 2011. In fact, I am having trouble finding an RS mentioning 1969. I think it's safe to fix the article. -- ke4roh (talk) 20:39, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

IMDb is not a reliable source, just saying. Snuggums (talk / edits) 20:47, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Article size

This article's size has considerably increased to 200KB now. That's just too long and sinewy. I believe we should prune the article some with the biography portions and the influences to make it flow better and keep its FA status. A FAR would be a good idea as well. Let me know your thoughts guys. —Indian:BIO · ^{[ ChitChat ]} 06:30, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Increased to 200K..... from what point in time, and what was it before? This article has so far survived two FAR's, and the more recent FAR was several years ago, but we might not need that if boldly pruning ourselves. I'll give some thought as to what should be taken out and what should stay. We could also take to GOCE after finishing. Snuggums (talk / edits) 07:00, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

That would need to be analyzed, but I belive a size of 150K would suffice for now. A multiple factors are associated, QUOTEFARM, Page loading time, and also that a review is needed since as you pointed out that the FAR was many years ago, this needs time to scrutinize. (PS. What the hell is teh list of references doing below? >:() —Indian:BIO · ^{[ ChitChat ]} 07:02, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Per WP:FAR instructions, one must first raise issues on talk page and try to resolve them then and there. If issues go unresolved, THEN nominate for FAR. Snuggums (talk / edits) 07:40, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Yep that's what we are trying to achieve here. I think spotchecks are of utmost necessary, especially because of concerns like this. —Indian:BIO · ^{[ ChitChat ]} 08:27, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

@SNUGGUMS: @IndianBio: I agree with Snuggs. It definitely needs some work, but it's been over 180K for well over 3 years now. It's been a very slow and gradual build-up (especially with not much happening with her career in past years). The article sure needs work, but I don't necessarily think FAR is needed/appropriate. Also, 150K is a bit ambitious for someone of her career length/stature Bio. Anything below 175K would be removing valuable information and hurting the article.--PeterGriffin • Talk2Me 23:14, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

The article size looks to be of usual, or close to usual length, for a singer with Carey's success (legend and all that). And there are articles on Wikipedia bigger than this one. Also, when factoring in size, make sure that, per WP:SIZE, we are basing that on readable-prose and aren't including all the other stuff. Flyer22 (talk) 23:22, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

To Petergriffin, I was definitely not suggesting removing valuable information from the article. What I was talking about is pruning the quotes a little and maybe paraphrasing it, so that the sentence flows are a little better. Well, Carey's career is not going to end with that flop of an album, she will continue to record. Now since there is a lull, we can look into the article through a review process and better it. And Flyer, yeah I was basing it on readable prose only. —Indian:BIO · ^{[ ChitChat ]} 05:27, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

UPDATE: There's probably more to do, but so far I've reduced the article from ~202k to ~193.8k. Snuggums (talk / edits) 03:54, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Adult contemporary

Those who adding adult contemporary music (which is a style, not a genre) in the infobox from Mariah's song information pages. She had nothing to do with AC. 183.171.169.57 (talk) 14:03, 19 September 2014 (UTC)