Talk:Piano Sonata No. 14 (Beethoven)

Adding painting of Moonlight on Lake Lucerne?

I found a painting titled Moonlight on Lake Lucerne with the Rigi in the Distance,Switzerland by Joseph Mallord William Turner, painted in 1841 http://www.whitworth.manchester.ac.uk/collection/advsearch/objdisphigh/index.html?irn=16&Where=TitObjectRating%3D'highlight'+and+exists+(TitCollectionGroup_tab+Where+TitCollectionGroup+Contains+'historic-drawings')&StartAt=1. Since the sonata is nicknamed "Moonlight" because of a comment by a critic on how it reminded him of Lake Lucerne, it seems like this would be a nice picture to have in the article. Would there be a way to get this picture onto Wikimedia Commons in a way that suits copyright? Then it could be linked to the article.PianoMelody (talk) 04:00, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• Accompanying images need to be specifically related to the encyclopedic content. Earlier images of moonlight have been removed and will probably be again. Eusebeus (talk) 07:07, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Ungarbling the Italian

I've removed "Its original title, Quasi una Fantasia, was in keeping with that dedication" ("that dedication" being the one to Giulietta Guicciardi) - I'm pretty sure that the "quasi una fantasia" is there because of the rather free form of the sonata. It has nothing to do with the Countess. --Camembert

Might be both. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.131.16.193 (talk) 03:54, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

The moonlight sonata was not intended to be dedicated to Giulietta Guicciardi, as Beethoven was supposed to dedicate a Rondo to her, but later dedicated to Count Lichnowsky instead. The 'moonlight sonata' was a makeshift gift for Guiccardi, and it has nothing to do with the countess. chinzh —Preceding undated comment was added at 13:10, 18 December 2008 (UTC).

doctor Girl

There is an anecdote about how this sonata was christened "Moonlight" when Beethoven played it for a doctor girl. Is there any credibility for this story?

No. See article. Opus33 16:05, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Moonlight?

The sonata seems like walking in the quiet "moonlight" in the first movement, but the third movement is aggressive and fast-paced. "Quasi una fantasia" is a more accurate description (describes whole movement as a fantasy), because "Moonlight" only applies to one movement. — Stevey7788 (talk) 04:25, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

The novice pianist

68.54.132.201 added the remark that the ogg file of the first movement is "performed by a novice pianist". I downloaded the file to check up on this, and it seems that 68.54.132.201's remark might actually be a bit generous. There are many wrong notes, and also places where the performer hesitates, apparently trying to remember what come next. I feel that this performance is introduction to the work for people who have never heard it before, and does us no credit as an encyclopedia.

Therefore I ask: would anyone complain if I deleted the link to this sound file? And might it be possible to find something to take its place? Ideally, we should have all three movements in any event. Opus33 16:12, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

I try not to be critical of others' audio contributions as my own such contributions have their failings. However, I did listen to the file in question and I do understand the various concerns that have been raised.

I would be happy to provide a new recording of the first two movements, which are familiar to me and easily within my skill. The third would take some time to work up as it is more difficult, mainly because of the tempo. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 19:41, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Hi Uninvited,

Sorry, I didn't want to sound mean to anybody--though I guess it turned out that way! I am equally humble about my own pianistic contributions to the Wikipedia--I've tried not to do anything above my level.

An Uninvited recording would be very welcome. Perhaps sticking just to the first movement, if the third seems daunting? It would be odd to have just #1 and #2.

Concerning the current version of the sound file: since no one said "please keep it", and as I still feel we are better off without it, I hereby move the link to this talk page:

==Media==

Opus33 17:51, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

I don't mind doing a recording of it too sometime in the near future. (I've played the entire sonata.) TheProject 00:05, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Whoa, I didn't even notice this was removed until just now. I admit the file isn't perfect, but until someone provides a better one, having an imperfect rendition is better than none-at-all. As such, I have restored it. →Raul654 05:11, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Oh, dear. Raul654, please listen to the file carefully and ponder before you revert again. Classical music listeners generally expect pretty high-quality performances, and the performance we are discussing seems not just bad, but underprepared. Given the audience, and our wish to be taken seriously by our readers, a bad performance really is worse than none at all.

Sincerely, Opus33 16:12, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Hi, I came across this web page by way of altavista which has a recording of the moonlight sonata. Sound quality isn't great, and I'm not sure about copyright and all, but it's there if you want to give it a listen. Just pointing it out.. Platypus01 23:40, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

The MIDI Piece

This piece NEEDS to be re-recorded by an experienced pianist, as both the novice pianist and the midi recording will not work. The Novice pianist has problems which have been outlined before in this talk page, but the Midi piece has not had any critical review. As a MIDI piece, it doesn't exactly have any dynamics. If anyone on here can play this piece with a human touch, PLEASE, do it. The piece is nothing without emotion and dynamics. --Tony (Talk), Vandalism Ninja 02:26, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

I concur with a similar deep feeling Benjaminstewart05 16:38 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Trivia

without wishing to sound curmudgeonly, is there really any need to catalog all the videogames in which moonlight sonata has featured? What possible use or interest does that have? ElectricRay 15:07, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

• Actually, I have decided to be bold and delete it. Good riddance to old rubbish. ElectricRay 00:29, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I must say, in general, trivia sections in WP articles seem to work but this one was truly boring, dreksome, unhelpful cruft. Trust me, I would have restored the information if I thought it was helpful. Wyss 00:03, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

By the bye, I shudder to think of the WP article/list, Video games featuring the Moonlight Sonata :) Wyss 00:04, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Hello Electric Ray and Wyss,

I share your feelings, but motivated by practical concerns I've resurrected the material, relocated to a separate article. The problem is that if you just delete the popular culture material, people will just add it back in--the flow is endless. With a separate article, you can accommodate the flow without harming the main article. Also, I think that the pop culture lists have a certain anthropological value; i.e. for what they tell us about our times.

I hope this arrangement is ok with you.

Yours truly,
Opus33 16:53, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Eminently sensible. I did the same for the Marduk article - the reason I didn't here was that the actual information was so stupid I really couldn't bring myself to do it. But I agree with your reasoning. ElectricRay 21:24, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Mystery reference

An anonymous editor added this citation:

• BanYa (2006). Moonlight. Pump it up ZERO / Andamiro.

without saying what it is or referring to it in the text. Until (s)he identifies it, I think we're probably safer not including it in the article.

Opus33 16:05, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Photo

Can someone post a photo of moonlight shinning on Lake Lucern? Thank you. Cigsandalcohol 02:58, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

  I have one but I think it's copyrighted --Rake 14:28, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Novice Pianist's first Movement

Not to be mean, but after listening to the first movement provided by novice pianist I really only got 3 letters to put: CMI - Cannot Make it. I must say I as a beginner pianist who only have training less than a year can play better for this piece. Just that I don't know now should I play pp or p because I think pp too soft.

Anyone can contribute a replacement, please do so.

classification

this piece is in the classical period (1750-1820). Is its with romantic style or classical style? (romantic period: 1820-1900) Jackzhp 03:25, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Hello Jack, this is a hopeless question because nobody agrees on the answer, or even what it means. The only work I've ever read that seemed to shed light on the issue was Charles Rosen's The Classical Style: Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, widely available in bookstores and libraries. Opus33 05:08, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Is This Necessary?

"Beethoven was known to break hammers and strings when he played, and it is easy to imagine this happening when he performed this movement."

I think not. The rest of the paragraph already conveys the sense that "flamboyant" playing is needed for the performance of this movement. Spartan

Hello!!! Whoever added back the above line did not explain why it's necessary to the paragraph. I specifically doubt the importance of "it is easy to imagine this happening when he performed this movement."

Moonlight Sonata in Popular Culture

This information has been deleted [1]. Although this information does not belong in the main article, I am listing some here as useful. ♫ Cricket02 18:01, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Ludwig van Beethoven's Piano Sonata opus 27 no. 2 in C sharp minor, often called the Moonlight Sonata, is one of the composer's most popular works. The first movement is particularly well known and often learned for amateur performances. The work, and particularly its first movement, frequently appear in works of popular culture. The following is a list of notable appearances.

Figure Skating Ekaterina Gordeeva and Sergei Grinkov, 1988 and 1994 Olympic champions in pairs figure skating, performed their long program in the 1993-1994 season to Beethoven. This program is known as their "Moonlight Sonata" program, although only two-thirds of the skate are performed to the Piano Sonata No. 14; it begins with the first movement of Piano Sonata No. 8 (Beethoven) Pathétique (Grave: allegro di molto e con brio), continues with the first movement of the Moonlight Sonata (Adagio Sostenuto), and ends with the third movement (Presto Agitato). Gordeeva and Grinkov won the 1994 Olympic gold medal in Lillehammer with their free skate to this program.

Literature

• A young Albert Einstein is found to be humming the Moonlight Sonata melody as he ponders completing his paper on Specific Relativity in Alan Lightman's novel, Einstein's Dreams.
• The sonata and in particular one "little phrase" figure extensively in the Mapp and Lucia novels by E.F. Benson.
• The sonata is played at one point by the piano player of Cathy's brothel in John Steinbeck's East of Eden.
• In Family Happiness by Leo Tolstoy, Mashechka plays the sonata several times for Sergey Mikhaylych, often evoking intense emotion. Furthermore, Beethoven, who was in his early thirties when he wrote the piece, had dedicated the sonata to a seventeen-year-old girl with whom he was in love; in Tolstoy's story, Sergey Mikhaylych, a man of thirty-six, falls in love with young Mashechka, who, like Beethoven's love, is seventeen.
• Jostein Gaarder, through his character Georg, compares the three movements of the Moonlight Sonata to life in his novel The Orange Girl
• Yannis Ritsos has written a poem called Moonlight Sonata.

Music

• The Beatles song "Because" from the Abbey Road album, was written based upon a reversal of the "Moonlight" Sonata's chord progression; John Lennon had heard Yoko Ono playing the Beethoven piece on piano.
• Brazilian heavy metal band Viper made a version of the "Moonlight" Sonata with lyrics in their 1989 album Theatre of Fate.
• A rendition of the Sonata, performed by Alan Wilder, is included as a B-side on Depeche Mode's single Little 15.
• A variation of this song is also on the first track of Trans-Siberian Orchestra's Beethoven's Last Night album.
• Bass player Stuart Hamm made a version of the "Moonlight" Sonata in his album Radio Free Albemuth using a two-hand tapping technique. He performed his rendition of the Sonata at a live concert with guitarist Joe Satriani in 2001 ("Joe Satriani - Live In San Francisco").
• Alicia Keys begins the first song of her debut album Songs in A Minor with the opening of the "Moonlight" Sonata -- just as Beethoven's melody begins, she blends it into her own song as the "Moonlight" fades out.
• Iranian classical guitar composer Behzad Mirkhani performed a version of the "Moonlight" Sonata by solo nylon guitar in his 2004 album 70 Minutes with Guitar Romances.
• The classical guitarist Francisco Tárrega made an arrangement of the first movement of the "Moonlight Sonata", as well as other works by Beethoven, including the Allegretto from his Symphony No. 7.
• Neneh Cherry use the opening sequence of the Moonlight Sonata as a sampling background for her song "Somedays" on the album "Homebrew" (1992).
• Pianist Bradley Joseph performs his rendition of Moonlight Sonata on his 2006 album Piano Love Songs.
• The unplugged Die Toten Hosen album entitled "Nur Zu Besuch: Unplugged im Wiener Burgtheater" features a toned-down version of the popular German rock song "Hier Kommt Alex," in which an introduction consisting of the first movement of The Moonlight Sonata is added.
• Korean Pop artist Ivy (singer) recently sampled the first movement in her 2007 album's song "Sonata of Temptation."
• Brutal Death Metal/Deathgrind band Cattle Decapitation use several lines of this song as the piano part of the intro to their Humanure album in the song "Scatology Domine". The title track, "Humanure", also uses the same notes, but in a more rapid riff form.
• Ochre incorporated parts of the Moonlight Sonata in a track with the same name on his album "Audiomicrodevice" (2001).
• The sixties' girl-group The Shangri-Las had a minor hit in 1966 with a spoken word piece entitled "Past, Present, and Future," set entirely to the melody of the first movement of the Moonlight Sonata.
• Marcus Miller covered the song in his 2005 album Silver Rain.
• The song is used as a sample in the song 'The River' by Atmosphere (band) on the 'Sad Clowd Bad Dub II' album.
• The Czech black metal band Root used the beginning of the sonata's first movement on the first track of their 1992 album The Temple in the Underworld.
• French RnB singer Vitaa used the melody of the sonata for her popular song A fleur de toi.

Film

• The song is featured in several key scenes from the Japanese live action film Casshern. Most notably, the music is played during a final battle sequence, in which the deaths of soldiers and robots is hauntingly set to the first movement's eerie sound.
• Moonlight Sonata is the name of a 1937 movie starring pianist Paderewski as himself and Charles Farrell. The plot involves plane crash survivors staying in a Countess's house overnight, and the film features Paderewski, the former Prime Minister of Poland, performing at the piano.
• In the film Misery it is used in the famous "hobbling" sequence.
• The musical You're a Good Man, Charlie Brown features a song, Schroeder, that uses the sonata (albeit transposed a whole step lower) as its music; Schroeder plays the first movement as Lucy awkwardly adds her own words.
• In the movie The Pianist Adrien Brody's character hears a German officer play the first movement of the sonata while hiding out in an abandoned building.
• Jamie Foxx plays the first movement of the "Moonlight" Sonata in the 2004 Ray Charles biopic Ray.
• In Guy Ritchie's movie Revolver first movement of the Sonata is used in the bullet-time assassination scene in restaurant.
• In the film Elephant, the first movement of the Sonata is used on many occasions, including a scene where Alex practices piano.
• Gary Oldman, as Beethoven, plays "Moonlight Sonata" on the piano in the movie Immortal Beloved.
• The main musical piece in the Korean hit horror film, Phone, or "Pon", based on a popular South Korean urban legend about a high school student who commits suicide and haunts her school, playing piano when nobody is around. The piece is played multiple times throughout the film, used to symbolise the essence of love, lost. The main character learns to play the 1st movement of the Moonlight Sonata, for her lover.
• In the movie Far & Away, Nicole Kidman's character is playing the Moonlight Sonata for company and suddenly switches to lively ragtime music, much to the disappointment of her mother.
• Parts of the first movement are used throughout the film Being John Malkovich.
• In the film Psycho II Anthony Perkins's character plays the first movement of the piece on his piano.
• In the film The Man Who Wasn't There, part of the first movement is played as Billy Bob Thornton's character is walking down the street.
• In the 2005 film The Quiet which features numerous facts about Beethoven, the song is played by Dot during a scene in the end where moonlight shines through a window and onto the piano.
• Moonshine Sonata can be heard in various scenes of the film Confessions of a dangerous mind
• In the direct-to-video film Cruel Intentions 2 Kathryn Merteuil is practicing the first part of the movement when she is being introduced to her step-brother Sebastian Valmont. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.197.85.173 (talk) 03:13, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Category:Piano sonatas by Ludwig van Beethoven Category:Classical music in popular culture Category:Ludwig van Beethoven

Senza sordino, senza sordini?

Hello, I agree that "senza sordini", "without dampers" sounds more sensible, and some editions of the sonata put it this way. But my Urtext edition uses the singular "sordino", and Charles Rosen, in his book about the Beethoven sonatas, uses the singular too (and he's obsessed with using original editions, so I tend to trust him here). Perhaps Beethoven's Italian wasn't perfect? Or perhaps it's ok in Italian to say it either way?

In any event, the phrase in question is a quotation, and so I don't think it's legit for us Wikipedia editors to change it. Opus33 21:44, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

My Harold Craxton/Donald Francis Tovey edition reads "senza sordini", and I thought that that would how they all were. If it's just this one edition of mine (Tovey may have corrected the Italian himself), then we should say "sordino". —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  22:11, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

'Quasi una fantasia' vs 'Quasi una Fantasia'

Is this capitalization / spelling really correct? Why no capital on the third word? elliottcable 23:10, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

You'd want to consult an Urtext edition. Alas, my Urtext (Schirmer) refers the reader to a book I don't have. Other sources I own suggest, not conclusively, that cap F is correct. Opus33 01:11, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Dead Link(s)

Under "Score", the "imslp.org" link is dead(October 19th 2007), any related or relocated sites?-70.74.122.87 07:27, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Opinion?

"The modern piano has a much longer sustain time than the instruments of Beethoven's day. Therefore, his instruction cannot be followed by pianists playing modern instruments without creating an unpleasantly dissonant sound."

I couldn't disagree more. First of all, we have no reliable source for this information at all. On top of that, if you play it Pianissimo properly it will counteract that "unpleasantly dissonant sound." Additionally, leaving the sustain on causes the octive strings to resonate, and as long as you don't play it too fast (unlike most recordings I've heard on the net) the reverb created by that effect is quite nice and in my opinion, intentional.

I don't usually play on $70,000.00 pianos, but "My piano is nicer than Beethoven's" is a very poor excuse to make if you can't get the song to sound good the way it was written. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.193.251.130 (talk) 21:47, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, Andras Schiff has mentioned in his Guardian series of lectures that the pedal marks http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/audio/2006/nov/22/culture1414 he has mentioned that the pedal marks are to be followed. However, this is only his personal opinion, so I'm not too sure about that. chinzh —Preceding undated comment was added at 13:14, 18 December 2008 (UTC).

Cut & Paste without reference?

The "Form" section is identical to an article on About.com, which is supposedly written by Aaron Green (http://classicalmusic.about.com/od/onestopbeethoven/a/moonlightsonata.htm). Who copied whom? If this is in fact an excerpt from his article (and not the other way around), there should at least be a reference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.68.63.5 (talk) 23:35, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

{{unclear}}

I added the tag next to the respective word because I wasn't sure if that was an actual piano term. Remove it and bluelink it if it is.68.148.164.166 (talk) 08:29, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

It isn't so much a piano term as an English one: how else do you want to describe letting up on the pedal? -- Tmassey (talk) 13:55, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

All About Beethoven Page to the References Section

all-about-beethoven Readded all about beethoven page has some good pdf content in it sourced from gutenberg and mutopia which includes piano scores for moonlight sonata and letters of Beethoven. Kasaalan (talk) 21:52, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

"Because" by John Lennon

Is this quote/story of Lennon's worth adding to this page too? I think so but enough others may not. Kansaikiwi (talk) 01:03, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

3rd Movement

Could someone talk more about the 3rd Movement? Every time I hear this movement, it always strikes me how fresh and modern it still sounds. Why is this? Is it because there are timeless qualities to the music, or is it that modern music today owes a great debt to this style? Viriditas (talk) 12:13, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

This song deserves a longer page, it is the ultimate song

It's not a 'song', you cretin. Pfistermeister (talk) 23:41, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Italics in title?

I have sampled a number of Beethoven and Mozart articles and none of them use italics for the title. This seems inconsistent. Can anyone enlighten me on the correct use? Ndufva (talk) 02:13, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

3rd paragraph needs editing - but there's no "Edit" link

Trivial: In third paragraph, the parenthetical should read (Italian for Almost a Fantasy). As it stands, with the colon, it seems to be saying the English phrase is Italian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ChicagoLarry (talk • contribs) 22:46, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Third Movement Audio File

Has a lot of mistakes.

Should be changed

Midi file would be better

at least the midi file doesnt make mistakes — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.88.176.161 (talk) 04:56, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree. What ever happened to the original third movement that was here a few months ago? I found that version particularly good, but now I've come back it's been replaced by, in my opinion, by a version played by someone with a lot less skill. 91.85.67.245 (talk) 13:21, 23 June 2011 (UTC) J

Requested move: Moonlight Sonata

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved Danger (talk) 00:35, 15 September 2011 (UTC) Danger (talk) 00:35, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

---

Piano Sonata No. 14 (Beethoven) → Moonlight Sonata – The proposed name is vastly common on Google Books than "Sonata No. 14", as you can see from this ngram. "Moonlight Sonata" gets 9,530 post-1990 hits, compared to 632 for "Sonata No. 14." Beethoven's sonatas currently all have article titles in this format, i.e. No. 1, No. 2, No. 3, etc. IMO, this is a most unfortunate convention since it makes all the names confusingly similar. It would be like using Zip codes instead of city names. After all, the point of names is to allow us to easily distinguish among similar items. Kauffner (talk) 07:45, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

• Support. "Moonlight Sonata" is preferred by performers, scholars, and the general public. The article will still inform readers that it was Beethoven's 14th piano sonata, so no information is lost, and article navigation is improved. Dohn joe (talk) 23:05, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. There is a redirect which is found. No need to give up consistency. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:13, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

To my understanding, one oppose, one support is no consensus. The article should be moved back, as the Appassionata, the work deserves better than a nick name in a language it's creator would not have used, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:06, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I somehow missed that discussion. Fwiw now, I would have supported it, and accordingly I oppose the move back. The nick name, for better or worse, has become the way the work is referenced in all but the most rigidly formal of contexts. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 19:46, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

You mean, announcing the work in a concert, mentioning it in a program, you would use Moonlight Sonata? Learning, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:44, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

You count the nominator, so the math for the RM is 2-1. Isn't "Piano Sonata" also in a language Beethoven wouldn't understand? The title "Piano Sonata No. 14" is a short form as well. The formal name is absurdly long. Kauffner (talk) 00:43, 5 October 2011 (UTC)