Talk:Nathaniel Bacon (Virginia colonist)

Substantial rewrite

Just a quick note, I've rewritten a large portion of this article, today. Hopefully it's much better sourced, now, among other things. – Luna Santin (talk) 23:10, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

GA fail

This article needs more information, some restructuring and a bit more historical context.

• Because the editors are using encyclopedias and what appear to be textbooks as their main sources, this article's information on Bacon is very limited. While it may be difficult to find information on Bacon, it is not impossible. The editors need to dig in their heels and do serious research. (I would start with the references listed here. They will also have bibliographies that will hopefully lead you to better material.
• I would suggest that the "Identification" section be incorporated into the "Early life" section or put into a footnote. It is strange to have Bacon die and then start discussing his birthdate and existence.
• The lead needs to be expanded a bit more per WP:LEAD.
• The section on Bacon's Rebellion, while informing the reader to an extent of the historical background, needs to do still more. Berkeley, for example, is not introduced anywhere - he just appears.

Drop me a line on my talk page if you have any questions concerning this review. Awadewit | talk 09:15, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Birthdate

No one knows for certain when he was born. An earlier attribution of him as the Nathaniel Bacon born in 1646 or 1647 appears to be spurious, based on no firm foundation, although widely repeated in later literature including Encyclopaedia Britannica, and the new Dictionary of National Biography. The old Dictionary of National Biography lists only a supposed birthyear and credits his father as Thomas from a contemporary document, but no mother is listed.

The birthdate is not correct. It was based on a false pasting of him onto another Nathaniel Bacon of that birthdate. Any book or article which purports to give him a particular birthdate is based ultimately on this bad research which they merely repeat. I'm particularly grieved to see the new Dictionary of National Biography merely repeating this falsehood without doing the proper research to see that it's false.

In my ap us history book, (The American Pagent), it states that Bacon led 1,000 followers, not 500. Which is true? I was just wondering... I see that the information was taken from the book I have, I believe that I also have the 2002 version, so I'm not sure why they put 500 people.?

Edit the page, cite your source with a page number, and you'll be fine. Wjhonson 06:01, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

This is an awful document and is to hard to read for normal people?

No one knows for certain when he was born? I know EXACTLY when he was born. through vigourous research. Samantha G.

Unfortunately, most sources erroneously give him a birthdate based on a baptismal record for a different Nathaniel Bacon. There is no proof the two Nathaniel's are the same person and there is reason to believe they are not.Wjhonson 05:19, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

unclear

I don't understand the phrase "Bacon's Rebellion was here upon by Nathaniel Bacon's disagreement with ..." I would edit it, but I can't even determine what the original author is even trying to say. I leave it to some other brave soul to try.

ADC

Poor farmer

Is it really fair to call Nathaniel Bacon a poor farmer, considering his linneage? I remember hearing that he had over one thousand pounds to invest in a plantation he himself owned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.242.64.16 (talk) 21:25, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Picture of the wrong man

The engraving is From "An Historical Discourse" thus it shows the other Nathaniel Bacon of the 17th Century. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.216.101.202 (talk) 19:58, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Correct, this is an engraving of Sir Nathaniel Bacon. Nathaniel Bacon the rebel was not knighted.

I have moved this image to the correct article and removed it from Bacon's Rebellion as well.

TuckerResearch (talk) 21:48, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Diplomat?

Why is he called a diplomat? TuckerResearch (talk) 04:22, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

First, please actually learn how to rename a page. It is NOT appropriate to "move" a page by copy and pasting the contents of the article over to a new name space. It violates GFDL as the article history is lost. Secondly, you do not rename an article like this without actual discussion and consensus. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 01:13, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I was unaware of any way of moving a page except by copy and pasting, for that I apologize. As to the moving, I asked in June why Nathaniel Bacon was called a diplomat, as he was not one. The article itself doesn't even explain this odd label. When nobody replied, I thought this was consensus enough. If this too violated some policy, I apologize again. And I can only plead ignorance in these two cases, though that my not be a sufficient excuse. I only wholeheartedly believed that I was making Wikipedia better and more accurate by renaming the page. It SHOULD be renamed, regardless of the incorrect fashion in which I did it. This should be done even without "consensus," as it is factually inaccurate, and this page is rarely visited and/or edited (I don't even want to expend energy to do it), so it might take weeks (as it already has) to find out why someone called him a diplomat, and reach consensus for that change. So, again, I am sorry for doing things incorrectly, but how can we get this page moved ASAP? TuckerResearch (talk) 02:26, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

To learn the proper way to move a page, see Help:Moving a page. For the page, I agree diplomat seems to be a bad disambiguation label, but rebel may or may not be appropriate (not sure if it is considered neutral). I've left a note at the biography project to ask them to weigh in on what a better disambig would be. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 02:45, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the page (Help:Moving a page), I'll look it over. I think rebel is proper, there is only a rebellion named after the guy! "Nathaniel Bacon (colonist)," perhaps? TuckerResearch (talk) 02:49, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Actually, I am wrong. "Diplomat" appears to have been used as the article once noted he was a diplomat.[1] This was changed to "figurehead" on March 15th, with no explanation for why it was changed.[2] The page was being vandalized quite a bit during that time, and this change was never undone (until now). So diplomat appears to be appropriate unless it can't be substantiated -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 02:45, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

However you may deem it "appropriate," "diplomat" is just plain wrong. There is no such thing as a "diplomat of the Virginia Colony." Bacon was also not Berkeley's cousin, though I believe he Bacon and Berkeley may have been cousins by marriage (I don't recall where I read that, however). The creator of the page called him a "diplomat" in the title, but there is no possible reason gleaned from what he put on the page [3]. The first person to put "diplomat" into the main body of text did so without any substantiation, or reasoning [4].

John Fiske, Old Virginia and Her Neighbours, (Boston and New York: Houghton, Mifflin and Co, 1902), available here [5], doesn't even have the word "diplomat" in it! And it has a nice section on Bacon (pp. 74ff.), the colonist, the rebel (the genealogy even has "Bacon the Rebel), but not a "diplomat."

TuckerResearch (talk) 13:21, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Checking with Bio project. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 15:28, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Still no answer here or at bio project, and Nathaniel Bacon is still not a diplomat which means that Wikipedia is still wrong! Can we form a consensus of two and move the bloody page to "Nathaniel Bacon (colonist)," since "Nathaniel Bacon (rebel)" offends your NPOV sensibilities. It pains me to see Wikipedia remain incorrect. TuckerResearch (talk) 12:45, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Spurious

The current text decries the identification with the son of Thomas Bacon of Friston Hall as spurious, despite several authorities that confirm it. We need a source for this judgment, especially since the ODNB also affirms it, and specifies the sum Nathaniel Bacon was handed when he was sent off to the New World. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:34, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Picture?

I'm almost positive that the picture on this page is not of Nathaniel Bacon, leader of Bacon's Rebellion, but rather of Sir Nathaniel Bacon, the noted English painter, who lived between 1585 and 1627 entirely in England, and was made a Knight of Bathe in 1625. These are two entirely different people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.70.107.137 (talk) 15:17, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

This is the painter, not the Virginia colonist

The painter, not the colonist

This image is of the painter Nathaniel Bacon, not the Virginia colonist Nathaniel Bacon. Note the category at the bottom of the image page on Wikimedia and, for instance the Yale Center for British Art (link: http://collections.britishart.yale.edu/vufind/Record/3622630) here: "People Represented or Subject • Bacon, Sir Nathaniel (1585–1627), painter". Further research on Google Books shows this as well. TuckerResearch (talk) 16:48, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Whitewashing of all mention of slavery from this article

All mention of the most significant aspect of Bacon's rebellion has been whitewashed from this article. That is to say, the most significant aspect of Bacon's rebellion was that it was a slave rebellion, uniting both enslaved and bonded workers, both black and white, against their oppressors. The most significant consequence of the Rebellion was the Virginia Slave Codes of 1705, which legally enshrined a racial caste system that reverberates into modern American society.

I'm not a scholar, so it's not my place to fix this article. This is a call for help: someone needs to correct and then defend history in this article.

WP:YESBIAS — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmayer (talk • contribs) 17:38, 2 September 2018 (UTC)