Talk:National Register of Historic Places listings in Wilmington, Delaware

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Wilmington, Shmilmington[edit]

What having a Wilmington address means is that a site is either in the City of Wilmington, in an unincorporated area of the county around the city, or in an incorporated suburb that is too small for a seperate designation by the US Postal Service. Rather than plucking out individual historic sites, I just clarified the introduction. !RevelationDirect (talk) 15:00, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

The standard way that this is done (for example, see Pittsburgh) is, when we have a list for a single city, we include specifically only those that are actually located in the city. Can you prove that any of these sites are located outside of Wilmington? Show your proof and we can move them back to the county page under a new community listing. Until then, we should give them as being specifically Wilmington. Nyttend (talk) 16:24, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
Well let's talk about this first. Pennsylvania uses the township system so every square inch of land in the whole state is in either a city, township or other municipality. (New Jersey, New York and Michigan are the same way.) Delaware has cities surrounded by large swaths of "in the county" which is part of no city but often uses city utilities. When people here say they live in Rehoboth Beach, Newark or Wilmington chances are they don't but the unincorporated areas are culturally considered part of the city. Someone from Warrendale may say they live in Pittsburgh when they visit you in Ohio but locally they do not. I understand that you want categories with bright lines between the different groups but the reality on the ground is not so clean cut. Here is your proof:
  • 98: Arden is a separate Municipality, read the article. (Moved)
  • 59: In Bellefonte, Delaware, per the Marcus Hook Range Rear Light article. (Later Correction: Actually two blocks south of Bellefonte according to this map page 26)
  • 17, 31, 46, 55, 62, 63, 64, 93, 99, 107: Here is a list of all city addresses for city wage tax puposes. [1] All these addresses are out.
  • 1, 16, 42, 45, 76, 90: The city has been permitted by the county to annex a few parcels outside of the Wilmington Hundred by the riverfront, but generally the city and hundred overlap. These entries indicate that they are in other Hundreds.
  • 7, 13, 30, 56: The actual descriptions on these sites place themselves as outside the city limits.
  • 5: Here is a map that shows the city boundaries: [2]. Here is an article that says the cave is 100 feet from the PA border [3]. These two don't match.

Despite proving my point, I think it's more realistic to accurately describe what having a "Wilmington" address means rather than looking through a fine print taxation log for each entry. If you feel otherwise, I'll defer to your greater experience managing these NHRP sites.RevelationDirect (talk) 20:56, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the evidence; I never doubted that you were right, but I don't know the area well enough to be able to determine where they really were. The problem with Arden isn't unique; to go back to the Pittsburgh example, the Gardner-Bailey House is in the borough of Edgewood but was listed in Pittsburgh for a long time.
I simply don't understand Delaware as well as I do other states. I knew that there really aren't minor civil divisions in Delaware, since the hundreds don't do much of anything (BTW, until 2004, part of Pennsylvania wasn't in any township, borough, town, or city), so dealing with not-in-city-or-village-or-town properties is the same as dealing with properties in states such as Maryland. I don't have time to move them at the moment (I'm in the final stages of preparing tables for Utah on my computer), so would you like to move them? I'll support your moving them if you'd like to do it; would you be willing? Nyttend (talk) 22:38, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

The Name Game[edit]

The feds usually list the sites under their original use. Listing them here like that is appropriate but it can make it difficult to link them up with any articles. I'm creating article redirects as follows:

So, without updating the actual article, these links are now active. We may wish to put the historic site info on those pages though. I suspect there are quite a few more examples out there, especially the obscure building names along Market Street. RevelationDirect (talk) 15:29, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

If you need any help with these articles, including pics, please let me know. – ukexpat (talk) 15:40, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

More redirects changing red links to blue:

The State of Pennsylvania[edit]

This ship sank in 1970, burned in a fire (in that order, oddly enough) and was scrapped to improve Christina River navigation.[4] It was listed on the registry in 1979 after it grounded in an unsuccesful attempt to save it. Obviously the purpose of the registry is preserve historic places but, when that fails, is there a process for de-listing nonextant sites? RevelationDirect (talk) 03:13, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

There is such a procedure, but there are many shipwrecks listed as well. Nyttend (talk) 03:32, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Cleaning up the New Castle County lists[edit]

As per above, the "Wilmington" addresses on this list are ridiculous. Coordinates seem to be off for many sites as well. But there is another problem that complicates the others - the 2 lists for New Castle County - this and National Register of Historic Places listings in New Castle County, Delaware are just too big.

I've subdivided the other list to "Southern New Castle County" at User:Smallbones/South New Castle County which has 114 listings. The dividing line is US 40 but the city of New Castle is not included. If these were to be removed from the "other New Castle County" list there would be about 150 there.

Does anybody mind if I go ahead and do that (it may take a week or so - there's a lot on my plate)?

THEN, when the files are the size I can deal with, I suggest dividing the "other NCC" list into North East and North West sections of about 80 each. Then kick out the non-Wilmington "Wilmington addresses" into either NE or NW lists (this will take some work), leaving about 80-90 in the Wilmington proper list (according to city maps).

Feedback?

Smallbones (talk) 20:54, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm confused — how many lists are you proposing? I get the impression that you want Wilmington, New Castle, South New Castle County minus New Castle City, Northeast New Castle minus Wilmington, and Northwest New Castle. If that's what you mean, it sounds good, but do you have any vague ideas how big each list would be? Furthermore, what would you plan on doing with the address-restricted sites? Nyttend (talk) 01:34, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
I'm okay with breaking up the list but we need to do it in ways that match local geography. "Southern New Castle County" means below the C&D canal which is in "Lower Delaware" (or just as often "Slower Delaware"). Rte 40/Pulaski Hwy is way north of that, so much so that I doubt there would be a sufficient number of sites to justify breaking it off. Also, this would slice the Bear, New Castle and Glasgow communities in half.
The other thread would be to add items to New Castle County because the Wilmington list includes both incorporated and unincorporated Wilmington (which is not really distinguished all that much locally).
I'm happy to give suggestions for alternate geographical breakdowns but I kind of have a question related to Nyttend's: roughly what is the maximum number of items that would be desirable for each list? ThanksRevelationDirect (talk) 03:44, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

Sorry, I should have been more precise:

For the 1st change, there are now 2 lists "Wilmington" with 111 listings - stays as is "Rest of NC County" with 265 - split into Southern NC County with 114 plus "Rest of NC county" with 151. So, 3 lists for the time being

Once that change is made, split "Rest of NC County" into (NE NCC minus Wilmington), which includes the city of New Castle, about 75 and NW NCC, about 76. I wouldn't want to do this until I had a smaller file to work with than the present 265.

Once that change is made, sort through the Wilmington entries and kick out the ones not in the city of Wilmington. Perhaps 10 go to NW NCC and 16 go to NE NCC, leaving 85 in Wilmington. The final result would likely be:

  • City of Wilmington proper (according to city maps) - approx. 85
  • NE NCC minus Wilmington plus city of New Castle (which borders the rest) - approx. 91
  • NW NCC - approx. 86
  • South NCC - 114

Simple rule for southern NCC - "Any location south of both US 40 and the city of New Castle The rule dividing NE from NW hasn't been made yet, but maybe a simple line of latitude, or a road (Gap-Newport Pike??)

As far as "address restricted" site - all now have city/village names attached, so would fit in easily. future address restricted sites? Probably just take our best guess.

Hope this helps. It might be simpler conceptually to do it all at once - but who is going to do all that work, all at once??

re:revelationd

C&D Canal as the border would just take about 20 sites out of Southern NCC

New Castle city wouldn't be split, just merged into the area right around it. US 40 jumps north around it.

Bear and Glasgow don't seem to have any sites - I was more worried about splitting Newport and even Christiana.

Smallbones (talk) 04:12, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

So you're looking at trying to keep each under a hundred or so? Sounds good. Let me take a closer look at the list this weekend to see if I have an alternative breakdown by area.RevelationDirect (talk) 09:59, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
Sorry for the delay in my response. I got distracted with some site listings with bad info but they don't change the overall numbers much. I tried to break the county geographically in ways that would be meaningful locally. This is by no means a precise process but here is my shot at a breakdown:
  • 83 sites in Southern NCC (Bayview Beach, Blackbird Crossroads, Middletown-Incorporated, Middletown-Unincorporated, Odessa-Incorporated, Odessa-Unincorporated, Port Penn, Smyrna-Unincorporated above Duck Creek, Taylor's Bridge, Townsend-Incorporated, Townsend-Unincorporated) - The boundary here is C&D Canal not Rte 40.
  • 92 sites in the Newark Area (Christiana, Glasgow, McClellendville, Newark-Incorporated, Newark-Unincorporated, Porter, Yorklyn) - This probably closely matches your northwest grouping.
  • 91 sites remaining in the East/North Leftover (Arden, Ashland, Bear, Centreville, Claymont, Delaware City-Incorporated, Delaware City-Unincorporated, Greenville, Hockessin, Kirkwood, Marshallton, Montchanin, Mt. Cuba, Mt. Pleasant, New Castle-Incorporated, New Castle-Unincorporated, Newport-Incorporated, Not Applicable, Rockland, St. Georges, Stanton, Talleyville, Winterthur, Wooddale) - This would be the only one to stay on the county page because I'm not sure this grouping is meaningfull and splitting it into two would create some short lists.
  • 109 "in" Wilmington (Wilmington-Incorporated 88, Wilmington-Unincorporated 21 -- accord to my count above. I think splitting this might cause confusion as to where to look and doesn't really even out the numbers mutch.
I think setting the boundaries for the Wilmington and Southern New Castle Lists in ways that match the local understanding of those terms would improve readers' navigation substantially. The other two are just my stab at splitting up whats left. I'd be happy to assist with this since I'm looking to fix some sites that are in the wrong counties. Thoughts?RevelationDirect (talk) 04:16, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

break[edit]

Unless somebody really objects loudly, I'll split off everything south of the C&D Canal within a couple of days - we all seem fairly agreeable to that, and it will cut down the size of the files. I still don't understand the definition of Wilmington that we will use - so looking at listings one at a time will be problematic, even though some listings are clearly out of line whatever the definition would be. I think we agree in principle on a separate list for the Newark area, but it needs to be defined simply and clearly, well at a minimum clearly - I'll get back to everybody on this, after I check it out. Smallbones (talk) 03:56, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Agreed.RevelationDirect (talk) 10:41, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
I've got 90 listings at User:Smallbones/South New Castle County, but 10 of them don't have coords. Smallbones (talk) 16:32, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
Good work! A few small items:
  • Biddle House is below the C&D but I've updated the location in the main list (not St. Georges).
  • If the "cities" are correct, the John Carney Agricultural Complex, Clyde Farm Site and William Hicklen House are all north of the Canal.
  • I've updated the coords of the Liston Range Front Lighthouse on the main article so it is now south of the Canal.
I'm happy to go in an update your list if that's helpful but I didn't want to edit your user page without your OK.RevelationDirect (talk) 10:41, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Hmm. This seems to have stalled. The "Wilmington address" criterion has resulted in considerable weirdness evident when looking at a map of the coordinates, with considerable interspersion of "Wilmington" and "northern New Castle County" sites. Accordingly, I'm going to transfer about 28 sites outside the Wilmington city limits from here to the northern New Castle County listing, which will bump that list up to about 212. Once that's done, maybe we can resume looking for a logical boundary to split the northern New Castle County list. (Mark I eyeball suggests that the line of the White Clay Creek might produce a decent split, but I haven't counted to verify.) Choess (talk) 16:11, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Needed photos near Wilmington (including others in northern New Castle County)[edit]

Map all coordinates using: OpenStreetMap 
Download coordinates as: KML · GPX

This list is meant to aid in knowing which sites in Wilmington need photos. List may not be complete or accurate. A few added for rephotographing.

[1] Name on the Register[2] Image Date listed[3] Location Description
9 Church Street Historic District June 12, 1987
(#87000944)
Bounded by Eighth, Locust, Seventh, and Church Sts.
39°44′21″N 75°32′26″W / 39.739167°N 75.540556°W / 39.739167; -75.540556 (Church Street Historic District)
42 New Castle Leather Raw Stock Warehouse June 16, 1983
(#83001401)
14th and Poplar Sts.
39°44′49″N 75°32′31″W / 39.746944°N 75.541944°W / 39.746944; -75.541944 (New Castle Leather Raw Stock Warehouse)
10 Continental Army Encampment Site
Continental Army Encampment Site
December 18, 1973
(#73000547)
Lovering Ave. near Broom St.
39°45′28″N 75°33′22″W / 39.757778°N 75.556111°W / 39.757778; -75.556111 (Continental Army Encampment Site)
11 Cool Spring Park Historic District
Cool Spring Park Historic District
December 27, 1983
(#83003513)
Bounded by Park Pl., Jackson, Van Buren, and 10th Sts.
39°45′00″N 75°33′34″W / 39.75°N 75.559444°W / 39.75; -75.559444 (Cool Spring Park Historic District)
12 Crosby and Hill Building
Crosby and Hill Building
January 30, 1985
(#85000148)
605 N. Market St.
39°44′32″N 75°33′01″W / 39.742222°N 75.550278°W / 39.742222; -75.550278 (Crosby and Hill Building)
24 Fort Christina
Fort Christina
October 15, 1966
(#66000260)
E. 7th St. and the Christina River, Fort Christina State Park
39°44′14″N 75°32′18″W / 39.737222°N 75.538333°W / 39.737222; -75.538333 (Fort Christina)

References[edit]

  1. ^ Numbers represent an ordering by significant words. Various colorings, defined here, differentiate National Historic Landmarks and historic districts from other NRHP buildings, structures, sites or objects.
  2. ^ National Park Service (2008-04-24). "National Register Information System". National Register of Historic Places. National Park Service.
  3. ^ The eight-digit number below each date is the number assigned to each location in the National Register Information System database, which can be viewed by clicking the number.