Talk:Nazism and race

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The latters[edit]

What is the meaning of The latters here - Jews or Gypsies and Jews? I would suggest to rewrite the sentence.Xx236 08:06, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

hierarchy[edit]

it is stated that the nazis had a 'ladder' for racial clasification. it would be good to publish the ladder, or simply post the various positions. all it says in this artcile is nordics at the top and jews and gypsies at the bottom. what of the inbetweens? surely the nazis classed the world's population in more catagories than gypsie/jew and nordic? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.219.115.39 (talk) 14:38, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

According to the article Racial policy of Nazi Germany,

"All white people (Europeans) were considered to be Aryan as long as they had no Jewish ancestry (Nuremberg Laws) under the definition as "Indo-European".... The fate of black people from 1933 to 1945 in Nazi Germany and in German-occupied territories ranged from isolation to persecution, sterilization, medical experimentation, incarceration, brutality, and murder. However, there was no systematic program for their elimination as there was for Jews and other groups.... About 10,000 Japanese nationals (mostly diplomats and military officials) residing in Germany were given "Honorary Aryan" citizenship with more privileges than any other "non-Aryan" ethnonational group."

So, while I wondered about nonwhites after reading "Lowest of all in the Nazi racial policy were Gypsies and Jews" it does appear that the Nazis valued blacks above Jews. The information on Asians is still unsatisfactory. In their efforts to dismantle the Soviet Union, the Nazis did create a Turkestan legion, which fit well with Pan-Turkism's well-documented ties to Nazism itself as well as to Fascist Japan's Altaicist counterpart to Aryanism. Just as it appears that Hitler was focused on the local Slavic-Jewish enemy, built alliances "fellow Aryan" Nords, and loosely exploited faraway foreigners; so Japan particularly hated and exterminated the Chinese, built alliances with "fellow Altaic" Mongols and Koreans, and tried to use the Jews. The million dollar question is how did Germany treat enemy Asians, such as the Chinese, rather than their Japanese allies or Turkic anti-Russian sycophant opportunists. Shrigley (talk) 01:58, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Moral Decay post WWI - Pendulum movement...?[edit]

The ability of Nazism and Facism to develop were in part the result of the immoral decay that ocurred in Europe especially Germany after WWI and the fall of the Monarchs and the class structure ?

In reference to Marlene Dietrich who was apart of the cultural decay scene of the times....

This is not currently part of this listing and should be included to improve the article.

--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 21:36, 7 January 2009 (UTC)


Google books shows some information on the 'moral decay' post WWI

Seems this is not included.

--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 22:13, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Difficult section[edit]

This section is abstruse and needs to be rewritten in more lay terms. There are too many links in this paragraph which are necessary to follow to gather a base understanding.-24.130.100.115 (talk) 18:24, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Philosophers and other theoreticians participated in the elaboration of Nazi ideology. The relationship between Heidegger and Nazism has remained a controversial subject in the history of philosophy, even today. According to the philosopher Emmanuel Faye, Heidegger said of Spinoza that he was "ein Fremdkörper in der Philosophie", a "foreign body in philosophy" – Faye notes that Fremdkörper was a term which belonged to the Nazi glossary, and not to classical German[2]. The jurist Carl Schmitt elaborated a philosophy of law praising the Führerprinzip and the German people, while Alfred Baeumler instrumentalized Nietzsche's thought, in particular his concept of the "Will to Power", in an attempt to justify Nazism.

In the section 'Origins', the paragraph which gives an account of the prevailing views concerning race relations in both American and Britain in the early 20th century is irrelevant and thereby removed. It decidedly gives a brief account on some views regarding race, mainly in America, but fails to correlate any substantial relationship or link with Nazism and race. It would better serve readers if it were appropriately placed in Wiki pages concerning American and British eugenics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.95.165.92 (talk) 16:51, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Content about how Nazis defined race[edit]

One hears so often about how Hitler wasn't blue-eyed blond-haired like a "real" Aryan, yet when you read the history it seems like the Nazis defined Aryanness as much or more along phrenological lines, i.e. shape of the skull, nose, etc. Perhaps some discussion of how race was defined under Nazism, since it does not seem to be the same as the current-day English-speaking world? Historian932 (talk) 04:51, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

First off, Hitler *WAS* blue-eyed. By Nazi racial ideology, he just wasn't particularly Nordic but rather "Dinaric", which was supposed to be a blue-eyed, dark-haired group of Aryans that had supposedly developed in the Alps. --2003:56:6D1B:C668:D038:8B98:BD5D:B109 (talk) 07:23, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Persecution of Jews has nothing to do with race[edit]

It should be noted that the Nazis persecuted Jews not because of their race. There were no racial tests performed on large scale and the most prominent German anthropologists of the time admitted that it was impossible to reliably distinguish Jews by the racial criteria as the majority of German Jews belonged to the same racial groups as Germans did. So accusing Jews of belonging to another race was nothing more than a popular propaganda, like accusing them of being Communists etc. It is of note that racism was very popular those times, and not only in Germany, so the Nazis just employed a popular topic to attack the Jews.--MathFacts (talk) 13:44, 9 November 2010 (UTC)


in the propaganda documentary "the eternal Jew" made by the Nazi party they outline physical characteristics that Jews have. and also note that they look very similar to the German people and to the untrained eye would go unnoticed. they claim physical things like "big noises" and "rough hair". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mattyyboyy86 (talkcontribs) 21:12, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

The same can be also applied to Slavs: saying Slavs are of different race than Germans is a complete nonsense, non only now but was also those days.--MathFacts (talk) 14:17, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

The Nazis fiercely believed in race, it wasn't just propaganda to win the masses. The smarter and more educated Nazis were pretty frustrated at the fact that the science of their day couldn't find any decisive evidence for their definitions of race and used to say that science was just not advanced enough yet, but that it soon would be. --2003:56:6D1B:C668:D038:8B98:BD5D:B109 (talk) 07:27, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
The Nazis were harmful idiots about that issue and many other issues. (Sources: the three-volume history of the Third Reich by Evans and the Kershaw biography of Hitler, both of which going into Nazi "race" propaganda in detail.) -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 13:30, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

An intro phrase[edit]

re: Ironically, pre-War Poland's population, deemed to be exterminated, had more citizens of Nordic race than pre-war Germany.[2]

The cited ref does not seem to support this statement. Also "ironically" seems to be a wikipedian's judgement, which should be avoided in wikipedia. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:56, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

This "deemed to be exterminated" sounds ironic and pejorative. Moreover, the statement about Poland having higher number of Nordic race than Germany is absolutely false. The pre-war Poland was a mix of ethnic Poles (who at the time were around 37% Nordic, which was clearly not such a "largely dominant" type) with Jews, Tatars, many other Slavs and ethnic groups from Southeast Europe, Armenians, Gypsies etc, while the pre-war Germany was rather a racially "homogeneous" country with domination of the Nordic type. My source is Jan Czekanowski and his book "Człowiek w Czasie i Przestrzeni" ("A Human in Time and Space") written in 1934, my re-edition comes from the 1960s, page 127. Thank you. Yatzhek (talk) 17:43, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Removal of a category[edit]

I propose the removal of the category "Subhuman: Romani, Slavs and Jews", not because of the content in the category, but because the term "subhuman" was not exclusively a racial term and the article is about Nazism and race. Plus, there was no such thing as a "subhuman hierarchy", according to the Nazis the hierarchy was essentially human vs subhuman. I think a more appropriate way of including this material into the article would be to put it in the "ideology" section.--Adolphus Weber (talk) 14:47, 3 April 2017 (UTC) As Nazis engaged in racist actions against Poles, Jews and Romani who they viewed as non-Aryan subhumans and aimed at their enslavement and extermination this section is necessary.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 18:09, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Don't you think that information would be more relevant in the "propaganda and implementation of racial theories" section? Dedicating a whole section titled "Subhuman: Romani, Slavs and Jews" in the "Racialist ideology" category is ignoring the fact that the term "subhuman/untermensch" was not used as a racial term exclusively and ignores all the others such as political opponents (e.g communists) who were categorized as such by the Nazis. The terms "subhumans" and "non-Aryans" were not used interchangeably and they meant different things to the Nazis, let's make that clear too.--Adolphus Weber (talk) 18:57, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
No. Jews, Poles and other victims of racist treatment need there own section. Jews and Slavs were seen as subhuman non-Aryans separate from Germans and non-Aryan, we need to make that clear too.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 19:15, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
I'm not disputing what you're saying as such but rather the placement of it in the article. I said in my first message that I'm simply asking whether it's necessary to have this category under the "Racialist ideology" section when the term "subhuman" was not used as a racial term exclusively. One part of the text that is instantly obviously wrong is the words "subhuman hierarchy" - no such thing existed. The Nazis either saw you as human or subhuman, simple as that, so I do propose the removal of that sentence.--Adolphus Weber (talk) 19:33, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
Some authors write about different categories Nazis viewed those they classified as non-Aryan subhumans so I am afraid you are wrong.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 19:41, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
Could you provide some sources that state the Nazis had a "subhuman hierarchy"?--Adolphus Weber (talk) 19:46, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
Code Name Żegota: Rescuing Jews in Occupied Poland, 1942-1945

Irene Tomaszewski, ‎Tecia Werbowski - 2010 and Slavs and Jews in the lowest category of Untermenschen (subhumans) The Western Heritage from 1500 to the Present Stewart Copinger Easton - 1966 - Other "races" were degenerate or mongrelized or subhuman, the Jews lowest of all and the Slavs next to the lowest The Impact of Nazism: New Perspectives on the Third Reich and Its Legacy

Alan E. Steinweis, ‎Daniel E. Rogers - 2003 But to ensure their preeminence, Germans would have to be segregated from the Untermenschen, who could biologically contaminate the former and diminish their racial value. Less racially hazardous Untermenschen, such as Poles, would be allowed to live, but Jews, whom the Nazis deemed the lowest Untermenschen

Terror, Force, and States: The Path from Modernity Rosemary H. T. O'Kane - 1996 - 'Untermensch 'philosophy The categories of workers chosen for exploitation were based on Nazi racist views of superior and ... Ranked beneath the Slavs, at the lowest rung of inferiority, Jews and gypsies would be treated with even greater

Those sources are referring to a racial hierarchy which is basic common knowledge and is not what I'm asking evidence for as I'm already aware that a racial hierarchy existed during the Third Reich. I'm on about specifically a subhuman hierarchy. None of those sources mention such a thing.--Adolphus Weber (talk) 19:57, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
Less racially hazardous Untermenschen,lowest Untermenschen are clear terms used by sources.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 20:07, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
Both sources mentioned are referring to the notion that the Nazis regarded people differently based on their race, not an existence of a subhuman hierarchy since no such thing existed. Some people categorized as 'Untermenschen' were treat differently to others who were categorized as 'Untermenschen' but that was based on other factors, not the fact that both were categorized as 'Untermenschen'.--Adolphus Weber (talk) 17:21, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
Please read on Wikipedia Original Research.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 18:49, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
I'm already aware of what constitutes as an original research and simply pointing out the fact that the Nazis had no such thing as a subhuman hierarchy can hardly be called original research. In fact, the sources you have provided so far as evidence of such a thing don't even prove that. The quotations from the sources you have used show that the Nazis treated people according to their race value which is something I've never disputed. The sources state exactly what I've been saying all along - the Nazis treated the different peoples categorized as 'Untermenschen' not because of any hierarchy within the term of 'Untermenschen' but because of their racial value and the Poles for example were treated better than say the Jews because of this reason yet both were Untermenschen according to the Nazis. Also, just because something is in a book doesn't necessarily make it the truth. Another point which I've already stressed enough is that it's entirely wrong to be having this subsection in the section of "Racialist ideology" because the term "subhuman" was not exclusively used as a racial term.
Also, please don't tell me what to do and for someone who is sounding rather patronizing me and telling me to read up on original research, surely you are aware that just because something is in a book doesn't mean it's necessarily the truth.--Adolphus Weber (talk) 01:38, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
Have you actually read WP:NOR yourself? It is actually you who is trying to have something included in this article which is not supported by any reliable sources. Hopefully soon some others users can share their opinions about the subject being discussed.--Adolphus Weber (talk) 14:13, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Use of website called White-History.com[edit]

I removed a link to website called www.white-history.com.

It goes to self-published website with title March of the Titans The Complete History of the White Race which should bring about alarm bells ringing. The site seems to be by Arthur Kemp who has his own wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Kemp He is a former member of British National Party, we can also read that "Kemp has written and self-published several books including March of the Titans: A History of the White Race, which says that race—understood in biological terms—is the driving engine in history.[15] An article in The Guardian says that the book questions the number of Jews killed in the Second World War, and "is popular with far-right activists around the world".[6] In the Western Mail news article he is quoted as saying, "I deny outright that my book denies the Holocaust." The book itself is quoted as saying "... certainly far fewer died than what is most often claimed. Increasingly, all the evidence urges a complete revision of this aspect of the history of World War Two."[2]

According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, in 2005, some of Kemp's writings had been reproduced in National Alliance publications, and the National Alliance awarded him the "Dr. William Pierce Award for Investigative Journalism", which brought with it a $250 prize, for his article in National Vanguard, "White South Africa: What Went Wrong?".[16] That article had appeared on the internet prior to its publication in National Vanguard magazine on Kemp's blog and in a book he published called The Lie of Apartheid.[17]

The use of such source by editor leads me to be very concerned about nature of his edits.

--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Just for the record, I never used this website or made that edit, nevertheless, it would be quite easy to cite the book without any reference to a webpage that currently has the book available to read.--Adolphus Weber (talk) 01:10, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Unreasonable explanation for removal of my edit[edit]

My edit to this article [1] has been removed with the reason "remove most, this is not in regards to Gunter and distorts Nazi policies" - this is not true. The Nazis did regard most Slavs as racially inferior to the Germans. But, some Slavs were recognized to have Nordic traits and were considered to be suitable for Germanization. The Nazis were constantly looking throughout the Czech, Polish, Russian and other Eastern European countries for people who appeared to be Nordic. Not all Slavs were targeted the same as was the case when it came to the Jews.--Adolphus Weber (talk) 01:14, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Günther and Slavs[edit]

Currently the article states "Günther believed Slavic people to be of "Eastern race" separate from Germany and Nordics and warned about mixing "German blood" with Slavic one" with the source Wulf D. Hund, Racisms Made in Germany p.19. The source does not say what this sentence is saying at all, the source states that Günther warned about Slavs who belonged to the Eastern race mixing with Nordics would result in a loss of Nordics in Germany (German nation), it does not say that he opposed all mixing between people of "German blood" and Slavs.--Adolphus Weber (talk) 01:22, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Finno-Ugric racial classification[edit]

Given that Finns, Karelians, Sami, Hungarians, etc. are, to my understanding, neither Germanic nor Slavic, how did the Nazis classify them? Finland was de facto an Axis power during the Winter War, or so I'm told, so the Nazis must have dealt with Finns at one point, right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Franxz (talkcontribs) 05:04, 23 June 2017 (UTC)