Talk:Nina Rosenwald

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This article was accepted on 26 September 2013 by reviewer Numbermaniac (talk · contribs).

kudos to RedDogSix GMenken2[edit]

Kudos to RedDogSix GMenken2 who created this article before it was deleted a few weeks ago. I retrieved it from a website that saves everything that gets deleted from Wikipedia. That's a wonderful thing because, in my experience, many articles here get deleted for purely political reasons. I'm an inclusionist who interprets our Notability requirement with great latitude. (We all deserve our own Wikipedia articles.) This article version is a re-arrangement of RedDogSix GMenken2's original with added citations. Inclusionists of the world unite—give the POV deletionists a poke in the eye! (The AfD will start any minute now). -- (talk) 02:34, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks also to Numbermaniac for accepting this new version so quickly (there's a big backlog in new article review). -- (talk) 02:37, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

NOTE: A closer look at the article edit history shows I identified the wrong editor as article creator. I've revised my comments above accordingly. Sorry 'bout that, GMenken2! -- (talk) 18:24, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

This was deleted via WP:PROD - no one objected so after 7 days it was routinely deleted. It was certainly pov at the time it was deleted and almost half of it was about her parents, not her, as were 4 out of the 5 sources. It's a bit more objective now although the bit about "has focused on supporting human rights and democracy around the world" seems like puffery considering the comments about her anti-Islam stance. Dougweller (talk) 10:19, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
That is how it was deleted. I'm not at all sure that a failure to include libels from political opponents makes a BLP "POV" (but I am glad that Max B ensured her "notability"). That she is involved with Human Rights in China (organization) and was part of Freedom House partially addresses the puffery claim, but I do see what you mean. About her being "anti-Islam", that's just an opinion of her political "enemies" and should be regarded as such, not taken as a proven fact. -- (talk) 22:30, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
Which is what we do, show opinions. A very bad idea to throw around the word libel, even on a talk page. WP:BLP applies here as well. Dougweller (talk) 13:27, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
Dear sysop, we do not present opinions as facts using Wikipedia's voice. Blumenthal's opinions about what organizations are "anti-Muslim", "anti-Islam" or ""islamophobic"" must be ascribed to him. Putting quote marks around it in the lead and citing to his hit piece is inadequate as it stands. It currently is a violation of BLP and I will be making the necessary adjustments. -- (talk) 15:19, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
Which is what I said. I hadn't seen that. Dougweller (talk) 15:23, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
My apologies, Doug. I thought you were being contrary (and I promise never to call you "sysop" again). -- (talk) 17:18, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. Well, I am a sysop, but just speaking as an experienced editor here. I keep having to tell people we don't have powers to rule on content in this way (of course, we can deal with copyright content, etc but that's obvious). Dougweller (talk) 18:06, 28 September 2013 (UTC)


Sorry if this is a stupid question, but is she still alive? -- t numbermaniac c 23:09, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, she is. (If she had died her obit would be easy to find in the New York Times.) I still haven't found her date of birth. She may be in her early 70's but sure doesn't look it in the photo I saw. (photo attached to Max Blumenthal's hit piece) -- (talk) 02:56, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. I've updated the WikiProject biography info box as such. -- t numbermaniac c 01:23, 28 September 2013 (UTC)


I have restored the original comment from The Nation. The original comment was edited as POV; however, the edited comment was more POV than original. Please do not restore the edited version. If you disagree with my comments, please discuss here. reddogsix (talk) 03:42, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Reddogsix, we do not present opinions as facts using Wikipedia's voice. Blumenthal's opinions about what organizations are "anti-Muslim", "anti-Islam" or ""islamophobic"" must be ascribed to him. Putting quote marks around it in the lead and citing to his hit piece is inadequate as it stands. It currently is a violation of BLP and I will be making the necessary adjustments. Another problem is that we're making the lead too specific—it's supposed to be a general summary of the content that follows. Let's add the details of the Blumenthal piece to the "Human rights activities" section and make the lead less specific. -- (talk) 17:33, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
Let's be clear, the statements were from an article in The Nation - one must state that it is an editorially reviewed magazine, not just someone's random unsupported opinion. The statements were attributed to them. Regardless of what you think of The Nation, this is a valid statement with adequate references. Do you think The Nation would allow potentially libelous statements in a article without vetting them? Your editing of the original statement only clouded the original statement and provided a inaccurate view of individual. As far as adding this to the opening paragraph, this is no more specific than stating, Rosenwald has been "an ardent Zionist all her life".
I would suggest we leave the comment until more opinions can be gathered. reddogsix (talk) 15:36, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
I suggest we try to write a neutral article by not putting Blumenthal's opinions in the lead and by not stating them as facts using Wikipedia's voice. I don't regard the term "Zionist" as an insult—to me it just denotes someone who believes that the Jews have a right to the state of Israel. As I intended, I have removed Blumenthal's opinions from the lead, making it more general. The details have been added below, in the body of the article. -- (talk) 03:10, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Nicely done, a good compromise. reddogsix (talk) 04:08, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, Reddogsix. (Now I am worried—what did I leave on the table? lol.) -- (talk) 04:36, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

"donated over $2.8 million to organizations that are staunchly pro-Israel" when the source says "organizations that fan the flames of Islamophobia.”?[edit]

That's completely inappropriate. No compromise can include misrepresenting a source so completely. No better is claiming she was called the sugar-mama of hate because of her philanthropy, that is not what the source says. If you think my new wording can be improved, please suggest it here, but the earlier version was unacceptable. Dougweller (talk) 11:45, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

The sub-title of the "sugar mama" article is "Philanthropist Nina Rosenwald has used her millions to cement the alliance between the pro-Israel lobby and the Islamophobic fringe". You do know what a sugar mama is, don't you? So, the source was not misrepresented. Anyway, I will make an edit to the lead so it's more general and put the slurs from left field down in the body. (How about in a new section called "Cheap shots from left field"? lol.) -- (talk) 17:24, 30 September 2013 (UTC) Italics added for emphasis. -- (talk) 20:22, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Of course it was misrepresented. The 2.8 million figure explicitly was used to refer to organizations that fan the flames etc. Using the word philanthropy was misleading unless someone read the article, and confusing. Also, 'staunchly pro-Israel' is not in the article, that was your interpretation and clearly not what the article was saying. The lead needs to be a summary of the article, so you can't just cut any criticism out of it. Dougweller (talk) 18:14, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
I think you're overlooking the article sub-title: "Philanthropist Nina Rosenwald has used her millions to cement the alliance between the pro-Israel lobby and the Islamophobic fringe". Just a wild guess on my part, but I would think the "pro-Israel lobby" would be "staunchly pro-Israel" (you know, like water is wet). I haven't cut any criticism out of the article, but specific slurs do not belong in the lead. A case could be made that the opinions of Rosenwald's political enemies don't belong in the article at all—the article isn't about them or their opinions. I refer you to the lead of this featured article about an American politician. I can't seem to find anything critical of the fellow in the lead, and, I'd be willing to bet that somewhere along the line at least one of his political opponents must have said something negative about him during his long political career. My conclusion is that if a featured article BLP doesn't need criticism of its subject in the lead, then neither does this article require it. So yes, I could indeed justify cutting criticism out of the article—the article is about Nina Rosenwald, not about what people think of Nina Rosenwald. -- (talk) 20:22, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
We aren't getting anywhere and you are still misrepresenting the source, so I am taking this to WP:NPOVN. And no, you cannot cut criticism out of the article - criticism or praise are part of any person's biography. And subtitles or titles of news articles aren't sources and are usually written by headline editors to grab attention, not by the author of the piece. Dougweller (talk) 20:51, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Israel Land Fund[edit]

Does anyone know if the Israel Land Fund referred to in Blumenthal's article is the same as the Jewish National Fund? I was going to wikilink it to our JNF article but was not certain they are the same organization. -- (talk) 16:38, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

They're definitely not the same. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 17:57, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
Thank you, Roscelese. Yes, I can see that you're right. Looks like they need their own article now that Blumenthal has made them notable. -- (talk) 22:03, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Scare quotes[edit]

See WP:SCAREQUOTES. They should be removed. Dougweller (talk) 06:30, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

I would have removed them but I'd be at 3RR and try to avoid that - of course, I'd only be at 3RR if I hadn't had to correctly revert twice "adding those organisations misrepresents the source since it doesn't actually say that" - which should have been unnecessary as I was right, but there you are. Dougweller (talk) 06:39, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
Taken to NPOVN. Dougweller (talk) 20:40, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Putting lies in Wikipedia's mouth[edit]

I'd really appreciate it if editors would stop trying to put lies in Wikipedia's mouth. None of the organizations the Rosenwalds donate to is "anti-Muslim", "anti-Islam" or "Islamophobic". They do not self-identify as such. Only their political opponents label them that way. Wikipedia does not describe a person or organization by uncritically using the terminology of that person's or organization's "enemies", because it so obviously violates NPOV. So please stop trying to do that. Repeated attempts to do so only expose the POV you are trying to push here. No one is objecting to opposing voices being heard, even though they're not required to be heard, but we won't be putting their labels in Wikipedia's mouth to describe our subject. -- (talk) 16:56, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Not that I'm commenting on the article, but self-identification, or lack of it, doesn't mean a lot. We can all think of some terrible people in history whose self-identification we would view as not quite accurate. This is true of organisations as well. Self-identifying as a really nice person or organisation doesn't mean that's the truth. So long as we don't state that an organisation is, for instance, anti-Muslim in Wikipedia's voice, we are ok. We are simply saying that they are viewed in that way by their critics. But we can use the terminology their critics use, in fact we should. That's standard all over Wikipedia. And in this article it's sourced. And at the moment your edit has left us with a problem - it is saying The American Muslim is viewed as leftist and progressive - that may be your view, but it isn't reflected in their article so the lead shouldn't say that also. Dougweller (talk) 18:07, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
I've rearranged the sentence in question in the lead as it sounded tautological to me. I also replace "and" with "or" in the list of self-descriptions and changed pro-Muslim to Muslim regarding The American Muslim. -- (talk) 20:34, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
You say "So long as we don't state that an organisation is, for instance, anti-Muslim in Wikipedia's voice, we are ok." Well, we weren't OK with these recent edits, then, [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8], were we? -- (talk) 23:13, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
(edit conflict) It's funny you should mention tautologies, because several times now you've implied that any source that describes Rosenwald's politics as anti-Muslim is therefore her enemy and not to be relied upon. You should read WP:RS so you can prioritize that, rather than your personal views. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 23:14, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
Blumenthal writes an article called "The Sugar Mama of Anti-Muslim Hate" and you can't see that it's a hit piece. Duh! Some people think we should let the enemies of the subject of a BLP describe her politics (in Wikipedia's voice no less!) and some people (like me) have a little better grasp of BLP and NPOV. Please take your POV pushing, wikilawyering and attempted bullying somewhere else (Saudi Arabia would be my suggestion). -- (talk) 04:06, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
Anyone who says "there is no such mental condition as an irrational fear of Islam" (which is as pov as "there is no such mental condition as an irrational fear of Judaism" is not exactly the best editor to be editing articles about Islam. I'm not sure that the rewording of the self-descriptions, although technically better, is ok so have asked about that at NPOV. I've also suggested dropping the label Islamophobic as applied to Rosenwald - I think that was added by the IP[9] - ironic eh? Dougweller (talk) 09:09, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
That's Mr. IP to you, buddy. 1) I was searching the DSM-4-TR (2000) on GoogleBooks as DSM-5 isn't searchable. My search for "phobia" came up with 56 pages where that word appears; "islamophobia" came up zero; "islam" came up zero. I realize this info is not probative (dispositive?), but it is some sort of evidence. In my experience, it's editors who lack an understanding of NPOV and BLP who shouldn't be editing an article like Nina Rosenwald. 2) I believe it was reddogsix who first put "islamophobia" and "anti-Muslim" in the lead [10]. Even if it had been me, it would not be ironic as it only shows that I'm flexible about putting negative information in BLPs provided it's presented from an NPOV and does not overwhelm the rest of the article. There's no "whitewash" or "promotion" going on here, and my edits bear that out. (It may have been me who first added the sentence about Blumenthal's article title to the text body, but don't quote me on that.) -- (talk) 15:07, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

The person is notable but[edit]

is there enough on her to justify the article.

  • The background is all to do with her parents and relatives
  • The political activism is all a series of names of institutes founded or prestigious people on the board, a naming spree covering for the utter lack of info on the person.
  • All I understand is that she is a wealthy person, of influence, who backs a number of causes. There is zero information on her personally, other than that she got a MA, joined ther dems, then the republs. I think that this needs to be merged into Gatestone, unless more information on the person can be obtained.Nishidani (talk) 10:28, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
I thought merging was for articles that can't stand on their own, which is not the case for either Nina Rosenwald or Gatestone Institute. What exactly do you want to know—the brand of toothpaste she uses? She is clearly not into self-promotion or more details about her would be readily available. But, no merging of the two articles is indicated. And, regarding her self-description in this article, the BLP guideline allows people who are not world famous to self define as long as it's not excessive. As Roscelese noted, Nina does have credentials in human rights with Human Rights in China (organization) and credentials in spreading democracy with Freedom House. I will likely be reverting you on that, perhaps with added citations to those organizations. -- (talk) 15:26, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

As Roscelese noted, Nina does have credentials in human rights with Human Rights in China (organization) and credentials in spreading democracy with Freedom House.

Human rights. The lead, runs:-

Human rights are "commonly understood as inalienable fundamental rights to which a person is inherently entitled simply because she or he is a human being."[1] Human rights are thus conceived as universal (applicable everywhere) and egalitarian (the same for everyone).

Someone who supports human rights in one country (China), but ignores them, or actively works to promote one ethnic or social group over another, is not technically a 'human rights activist' because the principle underlying activism on behalf of people say, in China, is not applied, mutatis mutandis to people in, say, the West Bank. Rosenwald's organization funds illegal settlement expansion in an occupied country (I refer to the judgement handed down by the International Court of Justice in 2004). On the face of it, Ms Rosenwald's activism is restricted to specific political objectives, and fails the test of universalism.
To define her as a 'human rights activist' you need a good independent, neutral authority, a source that has no horse in the race. Most of the descriptions of her activities here are sourced to organizations she directs, has a role in, or is politically close to, and therefore such sources are not acceptable. The page reads as a promo push for her on wikipedia, and to avoid any suspicion that this is the case with Ms Rosenwald (not 'Nina', a slip which suggests you write from a position of personal regard for the subject), the claim she is a human rights activist must be buttressed by a source that is objective.Nishidani (talk) 17:16, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
Agreed. What's sauce for the goose, etc. I don't think she's using this article for self-promotion personally, but we still need to make sure that it doesn't read like a promotional one, stating positive things as fact but negative things as 'described' etc. If there were no dispute there wouldn't be a problem, but there is a dispute. Dougweller (talk) 17:45, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
I might add that her relationship with Freedom House ended in 2007 when she reportedly resigned in protest after the two of its researchers were rapped over the knuckles for charging Amnesty and Human Rights Watch (impeccably universalist HROs) for, putatively, failing to recognize “the character of the [Islamist] enemy against which the civilized world now finds itself arrayed.” (['Nina Rosenwald Profile,'] at Institute for Policy Studies). This fact should be on the page, since the source is already there. Nishidani (talk) 18:14, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
The argument that you're not a human rights activist if you only work for human rights in one country is the epitome of a specious argument, and, absurd on the face of it. And, no, we don't need a third party neutral source to make the human rights activist claim about Nina, Nina can make it for herself: see BLP/SELFPUB and SELFPUB/BLP or whatever it is. -- (talk) 18:40, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
"What's sauce for the goose". Doug, are you finally going to address all that negative, critical, controversial stuff in the Barack Obama article? (crickets chirping. . . .) Oh, maybe not, huh? -- (talk) 18:40, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
Someone describing herself as a 'human rights activist' is definitely incompatible with WP:BLPSPS: it is quite obviously self-serving. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:54, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
The editor is unfamiliar with wiki protocols. Please note that dismissing a series of arguments by a waive of the hand,(brandishing 'specious') is not a reply, but a refusal to listen or engage with one's interlocutors.Nishidani (talk) 18:58, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
Please have a closer look at the policy, Andy. It says if "it is not unduly self-serving;". Since her claim is not unduly self serving and backed by solid evidence (Human Rights in China (organization)), the description is clearly compatible with WP:BLPSPS. -- (talk) 04:19, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
Nope. She may be an activists for 'Chinese human rights'. She is not a 'human rights activist'. It's a self-serving claim that sits oddly with her belief that other, internationally recognized HR groups are simply not up to standard (her level) in the defence of 'civilization'. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence (i.e. neutral sources), as both Carl Sagan and wikipedia have it. Mrs Jellaby on her home page might have described herself as a human rights activist because she looks after the folks at Barrieboola-Gha: her family would have had solid grounds to challenge the claim.Nishidani (talk) 07:44, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
Your argument seems to be that a person who works for human rights for 1.35 billion Chinese but not for the human rights of 2.1 million West Bank Arabs is not entitled to call herself a human rights activist. There may be others who would agree with you on this, on what you yourself describe as a technicality, but I'm not one of them. I don't believe it's up to you to set up such a "you-have-to-save-the-whole-world-or-you're-a-fake" standard, which you call "universality". Secondly, the settlements in Judea and Samaria are not illegal—Israel says so, and Israel is in control. (International organizations are fine, up to the point where they begin to interfere with a nation's sovereignty.) Thirdly, I'm glad to hear that Nina dumped Freedom House on a matter of principle; good for her. Fourthly, Nina, Nina, Nina! If you have evidence of human rights violations committed by Nina Rosenwald, I strongly recommend that you present it to the International Court of Justice at your earliest convenience, LOL. (That video you took of Nina personally bulldozing a whole family of poor, homeless Palestinians ought to do it! ROFL.) Fifthly, WP:BLPSPS applies, as her claim to being a human rights activist is not unduly self-serving. -- (talk) 02:48, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
WP:BLPSPS is clear enough - Rosenwald's claim to be a 'human rights activist' would need to be supported by secondary reliable sources. And as for the rest of your comments, please read WP:NOTFORUM. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:03, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
Clear enough to me, apparently not so clear to you because you're still wrong about it. And, since you missed it, Nishidani complained that I hadn't addressed his arguments, thus my long response (as if that's any concern of yours). Your reading assignment is WP:AGF. -- (talk) 05:54, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
In fact you haven't addressed the arguments.

the settlements in Judea and Samaria are not illegal—Israel says so, and Israel is in control.

The legality or non-legality of a foreign occupation is determined by the internal judgement of the controlling power. Human rights are repressed in Tibet, as they are in Palestine, but the former is an abuse since China is the occupying power, whereas the latter is not an abuse because Israel is the occupying power, and what 'Israel' says of its activities determines the legality of any measure taken. Don't reply. You are blogging, and the blogging is incoherent.Nishidani (talk) 13:51, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
We've been discussing technicalities. The bottom line is: Israel cannot "occupy" Israel. That part of the world was given to the Chosen People by You Know Who a long time ago and forever. I believe it's in the Book. -- (talk) 15:00, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
No. The bottom line is that Wikipedia has policies and guidelines governing article content. Which include ones regarding reliable sources. In particular, Rosenwald is not a reliabler source regarding claims that Rosenwald is a 'human rights activist, and 'The Book' is not a reliable source for anything whatsoever. If you have trouble accepting that, tough cookies... AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:21, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
Come on, 72 is obviously trolling. Let's ignore him and continue to improve the article according to Wikipedia policy. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 15:39, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
Agreed. This is just sucking the life out of editorial energies, and the person is just trolling. There's quite a lot of work to be done on the article, and that is what we are here for.Nishidani (talk) 18:55, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
It won't be the first time policy is overridden by local consensus, will it? Yes, Roscelese and Nishidani, let's continue to "improve" this BLP by letting Nina Rosenwald's enemies tell our readers who she is. I'm sure there's a lot more negative opinions you can add if you really work on it. The result will be what liberals and progressives call "NPOV". -- (talk) 19:14, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
Nishidani, on the Freedom House issue, it looks like you overreached a bit. The "researchers" (they turn out to be the president and vice president for research) were admonished shortly after 9/11/2001. Nina resigned in 2007. Thanks for finding that, though. Every little bit helps. -- (talk) 23:03, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, sincerely. That's the kind of close control on source reliability we desperately need in articles. I however didn't 'overreach' (I prefer Shakespeare to Marlowe). I just use the sources available. I've worked out now what happened.
  • 'Nina Rosenwald,' March 05, 2013 made the (quite improper) connection between the censure handed out to Adrian Karatnycky and Arch Puddington after they published their criticism of the organization they worked for in ‘The Human-Rights Lobby Meets Terrorism,’ in March 2002 (p.8) and Ms Rosenwald's resignation from Freedom House in 2007.
  • This particularly egregious misrepresentation drew on John J. Miller's Freedom House, Rocked,' National Interest article, 2 April 2007, which however does not make the connection: it simply mentions the two researchs at the outset, and then much later down the page mentions Nina Rosenwald's criticism of Freedom House.
I did take the trouble to fish out the original paper by Miller, which several sources alluded to. I certainly should have noted the discrepancy between the two reports. Someone should email the IRC and get them to correct their 'profile'. It is a deontological matter, not to knowingly mispresent the facts. Of course, even the New York Times refuses to expunge obvious errors which get past their fact checkers, as when they recently placed per Jodi Rudoren, sites in the Golan Heights as being in 'Israel'. This is not a 'left' or 'right' problem, at least on wikipedia. Folks here really are under an editorial obligation to do what mainstream papers often ignore, i.e. get the necessary facts straight, and the reportage neutral, and most editors pride themselves on spotting POV overemphasis, or source errors. Nishidani (talk) 10:47, 9 October 2013 (UTC)


To let Nina's enemies describe her but not let Nina describe herself is irrational. WP:SELFPUB applies here. She is not that well-known and seems to keep a low profile (we can't even find out, easily, what year she was born). Her self-description on the Gatestone website is not unduly self-serving nor does it include any extraordinary claims. We already know she is involved with human rights in China. So, what exactly is your problem, Roscelese? Why the edit-warring? Why the POV pushing? Have you gotten away with it so long that now you think your entitled to act this way? Please stop. -- (talk) 01:07, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

You have been told by multiple contributors that WP:SELFPUB will not permit Rosenwald's self-description as a "human rights activist" to be used in the article. Your continuing refusal to accept this clear consensus is becoming disruptive. If you persist in this behaviour, I shall call for you to be topic banned - and I suspect that this will be a formality. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:14, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

The Nation, CAP[edit]

Following the new user's removal of this information, I searched to find out if other sources commonly repeat this statement or similar about Rosenwald and her organization, and found that other sources also state that she is anti-Muslim. In some cases they are explicitly using the "exposé" as a source but in others they are not. Is it time to remove the specific identification in the lede, since it's evidently not just those two? –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 02:08, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Given the crapstorm being raised about the statements when sourced, I'd say better to leave them there. --Orange Mike | Talk 02:25, 21 August 2015 (UTC)