Talk:Panzerotti

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 11 January 2019 and 17 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): MassimoCup.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 06:05, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

singular vs plural spelling

The article claims that, in North America, unlike Italy, the singular for this food is spelled panzarotti and the plural is spelled panzarotties. The question of the correct vowel (-a- versus -e- in the second syllable) is tackled in a section below. Here, I am tackling only the question of plural vs singular spelling. The two spelling errors may be linked; I am choosing to tackle them separately to facilitate reaching a consensus.

I do not doubt that the aberrant spelling exists. I question whether its adoption is wide enough to justify enshrining it in our encyclopedia. Google proves that the spelling is indeed used by *some* people and *some* companies. It may even be common in some towns of English-speaking North America. I doubt that it is common all over.

Alert: my next few paragraphs are original research:

- begin original research -

Evidence set #1: here are two examples of established businesses in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, that advertise with the Italian spelling: www.panzerottopizza.com/panzerotto/ www.frankspizzahouse.com/dine-in-menu/calzoni-panzerotti/ . The first, Panzerotto Pizza, is a franchise with several locations in the greater Toronto area (I counted 33 locations listed at the bottom of that page). The second, Frank's Pizza House, is a family-owned restaurant within Toronto's city limits. Their page uses both the singular and the plural (Italian spelling), no doubt to maximize search rankings. They do not use "panzerotties".

Evidence set #2: a google search today for panzerotties yields 606 results. For panzerottis (another variant on the aberrant spelling), 23'800 results. For panzerotto, 237'000. For Panzerotti, 577'000. So the aberrant spellings are one to two orders of magnitude less common.

Repeating these searches for the -a- spelling, I find: Panzarotti 99'800 (including our own article as the very first entry). Panzarottis 6'060. Panzarotties 6'060 (yes, same count). Panzarotto 23'200. Again, much lower counts than for the Italian spelling. I think also that linkage between the -a- versus -e- and -i vs -ies spellings can be discerned.

Note a: Google customizes results based on the searcher's geographic location, which can be estimated from their IP address. The above searches were made from a Toronto IP address.

Note b: google attempts to correct misspellings. In each search, when google offered an alternate spelling, I did request a search for the specific spelling which I had provided. But I doubt google's database is able to comply fully. So the above numbers are not necessarily accurate. Still, I think the counts are useful approximations.

Note c: unless one combines the above searches with the names of North American cities, the results are skewed by matches from Italy. So perhaps data set #2 proves nothing.

- end original research -

I have no secondary sources to present. It is such a small matter, that none may exist. But I have not attempted to seek out such sources.

The fact that google's results match on the aberrant spelling in our article concerns me: (a) we are skewing google's results. (b) our article, especially when google matches and displays our paragraph, is advising North Americans on correct usage. It is probably feeding back, altering the language.

I am changing the spelling, throughout the article, to the Italian spelling (-e- with plural -i). I am preserving a reference to the aberrant spelling but annotating as questionable the claim that this is established usage throughout North America.

Black Walnut (talk) 20:21, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

"Panzarotti" are not panzarotti

Panzarotti as known in Southern New Jersey to describe a cheese and sauce filled dough pocket, is a disambiguation of its origins which is generally a *small* potato croquette type food, stuffed with cheese and prosciutto or sopresatta, and fried (see link below) Anyone who has been to Naples, Italy and has seen/eaten panzarotti, knows what true panzarotti is. A "panzarotti" as South Jerseyans know it, is more like a calzone or "pizza turnover".

Authentic Napolitano Snack Foods

Panzarotti is not Italian, if anything it's an Italian-American word for the correct spelling, which is panzErotto/i(plural). They are most popular in the south of Italy and they are definitely not calzone. They are traditionally filled with tomatoes and mozzarella and fried. Rosso99 09:02, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Not sure whether anyone cares to look into it or not, but the comment further above about how panzarotti are the exact same thing as pizza pockets is spot on. In Canada the Great Canadian Superstore sells generic versions of pillsbury's pizza pops, named - appropriate enough - panzarotti. It might actually be panzerotti as well...

204.191.239.171 19:29, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

As the Pizza Pockets article makes clear, pizza pockets aren't fried, which makes them distinct from panzarottis: "In an effort to differentiate form other brands the Pockets are round and the advertising phrase "baked - not fried" was coined." --Jere7my 19:08, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Interestingly, the article for "Pizza Pockets" made by (Canadian) McCain Foods has been disappeared...but the one for (American) Pillsbury's Pizza Pops one lives on. Way to shill for some corporations, Yankeepedia! Ugh. 2607:FEA8:BFA0:47F:B1A3:9953:ED4:E0FF (talk) 02:48, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

NPOV?

This article reads like a promotion for Franco's. Is panzarotti served elsewhere? If not - is this article notable? - AKeen 18:03, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

The name "Panzarotti" is used by some pizza joints here in Toronto, while others use "Calzone". As far as I've seen, the main difference is that panzarotti are usually fried, but sometimes baked, while calzones are always baked. Personally, I think the entries for Calzone and Panzarotti should be merged, and I've posted a suggestion to do so. - GregClow 19:13, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Merge with Calzone

Someone (not me) has marked the article for merging with Calzone.

"Baked panzarotti's also exist, although they are considerably less popular and more akin to the stromboli."

Isn't a Panzarotti by nature a fried dish? Wouldn't a baked panzarotti more similar to a Calzone? -aufs klo 22:40, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Panzarottis are literally the same exact thing as pizza pockets. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.43.212.221 (talk • contribs)

So the way I see it you either get one or the other. Is it like a stromboli/calzone, or is it origonal enough that it constitutes its own food item? Aufs klo 03:17, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Oppose: I've had both Panzarotti and Calzone in Italy and they are distinct dishes. As noted in various places, one is fried the other is typically baked. Also, the panzerotti I had was considerably smaller - I'd class them as being suitable for a lunch, where a calzone would be for a main meal. What is needed for this article though is more info on the original dish, rather than the advertising blurb for one USA company that happens to make them. Jamse 12:53, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Oppose: Now perhaps I'm biased (no wait, I am!), but panzarottis and calzones are most certainly not the same thing. Calzones are generally baked, have solid cheese, and do not contain a huge pocket of air, while panzarottis are fried, have melted cheese and do have that pocket of air. They're definitely in the same family, but they are like mamaliga and polenta in that they aren't the same thing.

i don't know in other

In response to Jamse, I do believe that there is a bit too much Franco's influence, but the Tarantini family was instrumental in getting the product here. There was an article about them in the Inquirer that I'm going to be getting some stuff from - the family, mind you, not Franco's. eszett^talk 01:07, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Oppose: in salento (a place of south italy) thew term panzarotto (pl panzarotti) indicates a very small dish (about 10 cm diameter) that's fried or in general something that's filled with.. with calzone (pl. calzoni) we indicate a pizza that's closed and tired or a dish smaller (about 20cm diameter) that can be fried or tired (in my place now it costs 1€).

ps. in every pizzeria in my region i haven't never seen the term panzarotto, only calzone (maybe in other place of italy it exits). --83.190.64.202 02:02, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Oppose: Calzone means Sock, I'm not sure of the origin of the word Panzarotti. They are different, especially in New York where a real Panz is rare. 173.52.142.198 (talk) 01:31, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

""Oppose"" Calzone is baked, and Panzarotti is deep fried, It is a different thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.188.235 (talk) 05:20, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

this is the true [1]--109.54.25.111 (talk) 18:17, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

ADVs

i think there is a lot of unmotived advertises in this article --83.190.64.202 02:17, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Picture

The picture on this page is the same as the one on the calzone page. Is there no available picture of something that is distinctly panzarotti? --Anthrcer (click to talk to me) 22:05, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

I know, right? Correctron (talk) 04:59, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

How about this? — Mudwater ^(Talk) 08:58, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Not a fan but, hey, at least they aren't the same anymore.Correctron (talk) 23:00, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Boiled Panzerotti?

Aren't the "boiled panzerotti" in the picture actually the pansoti mentioned in the etymology section? 212.59.34.21 (talk) 12:10, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Yes, you seem to be right. I’ve never heard of a boiled panzerotti before; they probably meant the ravioli pansoti. Fixed. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 12:40, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

"Panzerotti di patate"

This phrase is nonsense. In Naples, these are the only kind of panzarotti (spelled with the second "a"), thus no need to differentiate. Also, these potato croquettes most certainly do NOT come from Apulia! They are a well-known Neapolitan specialty, and frankly, more should be done in this article to not only articulate this, but to differentiate the Neapolitan panzarotti from the "pouch" variety that are actually found in Apulia (and elsewhere). Alternatively, it needs its own article. What a mess! 174.115.79.25 (talk) 08:48, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

That's going to need a source, as the source we have there now states origin from an Apulian town. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 14:30, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Version of English to use in the article

@JackkBrown: Hello! Use British English in this article, you say? Why is that? I don't see anything particularly British here. If anything, the article should use American English, because it has a section about panzerotti in North America. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 22:19, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

@Mudwater: absolutely not. For example, the pizza article has a section dedicated to North America (United States), but this is certainly not a good reason to include the template. However, the "Use British English" template will probably be removed (not by me), as you requested. JacktheBrown (talk) 23:41, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

@JackkBrown: I'm fine with not adding the "use American English" tag to this article, but I'm curious to know why you added the "use British English" tag. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 02:52, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

@JackkBrown: I see, there's a whole big thing going on, as discussed at User talk:JackkBrown/Archives/ 2#Use British English and other places. Since you've not given a reason why this article should use British English, and there are no strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation, I'm going to take the tag back out. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 22:13, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

@Mudwater: I agree. JacktheBrown (talk) 22:15, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Probably errors

According to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/2.37.165.95, "sono di mola di bari, le frittelle sono vuote, usano lo stesso impasto del panzerotto ma sono più vicine alle crescentine modenesi che al panzerotto. non so a Molfetta ma secondo me queste americanate sono tutte sbagliate" (English: "I'm from Mola di Bari, the frittelle are empty, they use the same dough as the panzerotto but they are closer to the crescentine modenesi than the panzerotto. I don't know about Molfetta but I think these americanate are all wrong"), this page should be correct. JacktheBrown (talk) 14:06, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

The term "panzerotti" doesn't exist in English dictionaries

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved (non-admin closure) microbiologyMarcus ^{[petri dish·growths]} 14:44, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

---

Panzerotti → Panzerotto – "panzerotto" is correct; see: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/panzerotto; https://www.dictionary.com/browse/panzerotto; https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/panzerotto (Wiktionary); https://www.wordsense.eu/panzerotto/; https://www.definitions.net/definition/panzerotto; etc. The term "panzerotti" (as opposed to "salami" and "panini") doesn't exist in English dictionaries. JacktheBrown (talk) 11:53, 26 June 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 13:58, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose This is English not Italian. Dictionaries frequently use affectations to transfer the non-normal foreign usage into their texts. Looking at Google Books, it is clearly "panzerotti" and not "panzerotti". Just as how pseudo-intellectualism has imported spaghetto into supposedly authorative sources, when no one ever uses it. Google Books "Panzerotti" 2,890 ghits / "Panzerotto" 704 ghits -- 64.229.90.32 (talk) 05:32, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
  • I don't agree at all; dictionaries are much much more authoritative than a percentage of Google searches. JacktheBrown (talk) 15:25, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose, Ngrams shows a clear common name for Panzerotti, and significantly minimal use of Panzerotto. Wikipedia follows WP:COMMONNAMES as used by all sources and readers, and usually not follow only one specific type of source such as dictionaries, nor do we follow the argument of correct over common use. DankJae 20:28, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
  • @DankJae: it doesn't make sense, because, according to this logic, we should also change "tramezzino" to "tramezzini"; what a bad thing. JacktheBrown (talk) 01:38, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

    Ngrams are an important tool (not the only one!) and since this isn't a RM for tramezzino I'll be brief, but we find that it's usage is closer than for panzerotti and since 2011 tramezzino has more hits, and has have more other than 1995 to 2010 (probably because of the panini craze in the English-speaking world) Tramezzino,Tramezzini. So, unless there's other evidence that tramezzini is actually enough more common other places, staying at tramezzino is probably correct. Skynxnex (talk) 16:22, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

  • @DankJae: fortunately, "peperoncino" has saved itself from this strange habit of changing the names of other languages. JacktheBrown (talk) 01:47, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
    • There is no requirement for consistency with Italian spelling rules, or the titles of other articles. None. See WP:COMMONNAME and WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. 162 etc. (talk) 02:23, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
      • @162 etc.: and @DankJae: I agree with "salami", "panini" and "cannoli", but in the case of "panzerotti" the English dictionaries (which write "salami", "panini" and "cannoli") clearly indicate "panzerotto". JacktheBrown (talk) 04:55, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose (unless new evidence is shown) In addition to gbooks hits above, Archive's book search finds this number of sources: 1,904 panzerotti and 654 panzarotti but 434 panzerotto and 104 panzarotto (for the latter two it also appears that a greater percentage of the sources are Italian language).
  Since above the dictionary entries seem to be a core of the RM, I figured I'd look into them a bit. dictionary.com seems to just be mirroring Collins (the definition is word-for-word identical) so isn't an additional source. Wiktionary is kind of like citing Wikipedia and also has a https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/panzerotti entry. The wordsense.eu source above also has panzerotti where it lists it as "panzerotti (English) panzerotti (pl. panzerotties)" and for panzerotto it has "panzerotto (Italian) (chiefly, in the plural) A large form of ravioli", which would support no move. The definitions.net entry seems to be scraped from Wikipedia when our text and location happened to use the -o variant. So, of the dictionaries cited only Collins is in any sort of support really and they redirect panzerotti to their entry. Looking at other major dictionaries, Merriam-Webster seems to have no entry. I don't have full OED access it seems like they have panzerotto as their primary spelling but also has panzerotti, including a usage supporting that spelling: [2]. So dictionaries, which don't dictate enwiki page titles, are mostly silent but really a mix. Skynxnex (talk) 16:10, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I request an explanation

If "panzerotti" and "panzarotti" are so common in the English language, why are these two terms not found in English dictionaries? In English dictionaries I only found "panzerotto". JacktheBrown (talk) 05:29, 7 September 2024 (UTC)