Talk:Passion (music)

Handel

Just an FYI...

I eliminated the mention of Handel in the "Protestant music" section because Handel only wrote one true Oratorio (the Brockes-Passion). His so-called "Oratorios" did not follow the Schűtz/Carasimi model, but rather fit a new mold. Even during his lifetime, he never (and no one ever really did either) referred to these works as Oratorios, but rather "Entertainments" or "Sacred dramas" or the like. In fact, the majority (with the exception of Messiah) of Handels "Oratorio"s do not use Scripture at all, but rather contemporary or earlier poetry (such as Paradise Lost and Paradise Regained for Samson, etc.). --Dgljr5121973 (talk) 05:08, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Merge proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Merge to Passion (music) Klbrain (talk) 15:33, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

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I just proposed to merge Passion cantata into this article. A main problem with the current split is that when wanting to refer to the broader context when writing something about a Passion Oratorio (like Bach's Passions or the Brockes Passion, or the St Mark Passion pastiche) neither article satisfies as a link: this article doesn't explain Passion cantata, while the other article equates it with Passion Oratorio – as for treatment of the Oratorio, the bulk of the articles overlap... I don't see a separate Passion cantata article as impossible (and the same for a separate Passion Oratorio article) but for the time being there is no "length" issue or whatever to merge the content of both articles into one until there's enough content to split off a separate article on the cantata variant (which for Bach's would only include the early versions of his Pasticcios, and should not have Passion oratorio redirecting to it) and/or on the Oratorio variant (which should contain no examples before the early 18th century except to explain the connection with prior Passion music). --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:30, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

I think, rather, that it should be outlined and linked to this page (just like other articles where the main articles are elsewhere).--Dgljr5121973 (talk) 22:14, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose merge per above. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 19:10, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Closing, given no support for the proposal, and opposition, over 2 years. Klbrain (talk) 21:46, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Reboot

I didn't understand what was meant by "...it should be outlined and linked to this page..." (@Dgljr5121973 and Finnusertop: could you please explain?), but it surely hasn't happened yet: both articles have a different POV, thus are WP:POV FORKs of one another. Unless that policy breach is remedied, the best option continues to be to merge both articles, so I'm rebooting the merge discussion until issues are settled one way or another. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:26, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

@Francis Schonken: Finnusertop's intended meaning was not doubt that the existing structure of 'summary' at Passion (music)#Examples, linked by a Template:Main to Passion cantata, is a common and reasonable structure that works here. Could you explain why you think that there is a POV fork? I can't see it. They consider or categorize them differently (via musical period or denomination in one case; via language in the other), but that doesn't seem to fall under the scope of WP:POV FORK because the views expressed on the page are not in conflict. Overall, I'm currently neutral on the merge; I close the initial discussion because is was stale and the last 2 comments were opposed, accounting also for WP:SILENCE. Klbrain (talk) 15:17, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Bach's Passion settings (etc.) are not cantatas, so what are they doing at the Passion cantata article? --Francis Schonken (talk) 15:35, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

@Francis Schonken: Bach's passion settings are probably on the Passion cantata article because at least one definition of an oratoria is that it is a large cantata - that is, that it is difficult to distinguish between them on the basic of form. It is also because Passion oratorio redirects to Passion cantata. Klbrain (talk) 16:10, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

"one definition of an oratoria is that it is a large cantata"

"it is difficult to distinguish between them"

Passion oratorio now redirects here, and many other issues have been addressed. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:24, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Following on from this, it might be best to do a page name change (move) from Passion cantata to Passion cantatas and oratorios? Alternatively, do the merge to Passion (music) rather than losing the important oratorio content. Klbrain (talk) 16:16, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Which would be just another content fork of Passion (music)... so, no, not a good idea. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:24, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

"the existing structure of 'summary' at Passion (music)#Examples, linked by a Template:Main to Passion cantata, is a common and reasonable structure that works here" is not the same as "...it should be outlined and linked to this page...", so I reject Klbrain's explanation of that phrase. I'd prefer Dgljr5121973 and/or Finnusertop could explain what was meant. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:57, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

I note that Francis Schonken has deleted most of the Passion cantata content without waiting for a consensus discussion here; a matter of minutes or hours isn't sufficient to establish consensus. I've already reverse this change once; perhaps someone else could have a look. Gerda Arendt or others perhasp? Klbrain (talk) 16:34, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

The content I removed is by that removal now WP:CHALLENGEd for not conforming to WP:V (the refimprove tag was up for three years!), so bringing it back without referencing would be a policy breach (not even speaking about the WP:CONTENT FORK while the material is other article(s) too...) --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:39, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Noted, but I will try not get involved, and certainly not edit war. "Consensus" is often demanded, but less often respected. Perhaps take it to Classical music? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:45, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

This was in fact a WP:SUPERVOTE as is clear by now. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:52, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

I did close a merge proposal Francis Schonken proposed made in July 2015. Since the proposal was made, there were 2 arguments against (in January 2017 and 17 October 2017) with no one arguing in favor. So, with no support, and opposition, in seemed reasonable to me to close it (and consistent with WP:MERGE). Having said that, Francis Schonken is quite entitled to open a new proposal, even with the same argument. Can I suggest that we therefore get back discussing the new merge proposal? I was neutral on the merge, but have read some more would be happy to weakly support a merge of Passion cantata to Passion (music), which would then allow a place where both the Passion cantata and oratorio can be discussed. Klbrain (talk) 21:56, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Tx. To be honest, a bit my bad too: I should have asked what was meant by "...it should be outlined and linked to this page..." months ago. --Francis Schonken (talk) 05:18, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Other option

Passion cantata could also be turned into a redirect to List of church cantatas by liturgical occasion#Good Friday — any objections to that? --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:51, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Oppose merge to List of church cantatas by liturgical occasion#Good Friday, on the grounds that that page is exclusively about cantatas within Lutheranism. Klbrain (talk) 15:06, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Well, err, no: the article is about all church cantatas: there isn't a single church cantata that wouldn't fit there as much as we have Protestant Masses mentioned at Mass-related articles: in those articles there is obviously a large share of non-Protestant Masses, but that is no reason for exclusion of Protestant Masses. Similar for non-Protestant church cantatas: when they are notable they can be mentioned at the Church cantata article, even if that article is currently (obviously) mostly about Protestant cantatas. --Francis Schonken (talk) 15:15, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

The Church cantata seems to be structured around the Lutheran Liturgical calendar, even to the point of including the relevant readings for each week. So, I don't understand the claim that it a natural fit for non-Lutheran cantatas. My feeling is that the Passions are sufficiently notable that a separate page for them is warranted, distinct from their presence of a part of a church year. So, I'd prefer your 'reboot' option to the 'other option', if any change was needed. Klbrain (talk) 15:36, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

FYI: most of these readings are compatible with readings of other denominations (even in Catholicism) and can be indicated otherwise (e.g. at least for one of the occasions different readings are mentioned for those Telemann referred to and those Bach referred to). --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:04, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

 Done

@Francis Schonken: I think that we had reached a sufficient agreement for a merge, but, given your interest and expertise, please review. Klbrain (talk) 15:33, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Passion Music redirect to Passion Conferences#Music

Passion Conferences has a music branch called Passion Music. It has many famous contemporary Christian singers like Chris Tomlin, Kristian Stanfill, etc. on it so I think that it would do good to move the redirect to there. If anyone is opposed to this feel free to undo and let me know why. Awsomaw (talk) 14:06, 26 December 2018 (UTC)