Talk:Pastilla/Archive 1

Archive 1

Photo

Here is a free image from Flickr. I haven't included it because, no offense to the photographer, but it is not very good at illustrating the bastilla. http://flickr.com/photos/frank-wouters/37749750/

La pastilla un fleuron de la cuisine impériale marocaine

La pastilla fait partie de la cuisine marocaine des villes impériales dite tyab al makhzani, car à la base elle est faite de pigeons, et autrefois l'art de recevoir à la marocaine exige l'utilisation des pigeons et non le poulet, et elle était servie dans les maisons de notables pour des grandes occasions; ses spécialistes se retrouvent surtout dans les villes impériales, selon le feu Abderrahim Berghach, journaliste marocains qui a fait des recherches sur la cuisine marocaine et a animé durant des années des émissions culinaire sur la première chaine de télévision marocaine, la première fois que la pastilla sera faite au poulets c'était vers la fin des années 70 exactement en 1978 dans l'école hôtelière des Touargas, Personnellement je la vois aussi prendre des airs d' autres plats mekhzanis, comme tajine Lemfennad aux pigeons, el Makfoul ou kamama sont aussi caramélisés ou la cannelle et l'oignon sont fortement utilisés; tout simplement c'est une cuisson sans eau comme les tagines sauf qu'elle est enfournée, et si on compare l'autre technique qui est de farcir à la viande on trouve la medfouna de tafilalte ( cette fois ci un pain farcis), et farcir est une technique qui est originaire de la perce venue probablement au Maroc avec les vagues d'immigrations du moyen orient ou bien du premier manuscrit culinaire originaire de Baghdad introduit vers le 10ème siècle je pense, tandis qu'elle a retenu le principe de la cuisine au beurre ou au smen des plats berbère, cependant le nom est castillan Pastilla ou bestilla comme les pasteletos de ojas dans la cuisine juive marocaine, ou bien les gâteaux au nord du Maroc appelé communément Pasteles qui n'on rien d'espagnole parfois que le nom, la darija marocaine été riche de mots d'origine espagnol comme escuela...même au centre du pays et non seulement au nord ou sur la cote atlantique la langue parlée compte un nombre considérable de vocabulaire espagnol, en fin je trouve que des villes qui ont l’âme andalouse plus que d'autres n'ont pas la pastilla comme recette phare dans leurs cuisine régionale mais c'est plus les villes impériales, les demeures des Caids et des Pachas qui l'ont conservée jalousement, et ce sont les dadas qui étaient les vrai chefs de cuisine de ces palais , qui ne sont pas du tout d'origine andalouse . En fin j'ai remarqué que le livre de l'écrivain andalou Ibn ArrazineAttijaibi Fodalat al khiwane fi tayibat atta3am wal alwane ne parle pas de la pastilla, sachant qu'il date du 13ème siècle et précisément de la période merinide, ni le livre de l'écrivain anonyme datant de l'époque Almohade, et selon une étude du Dr. Sijilmassi le fait d'ajouter les oeufs aux tajines marocains comme Lemcheber et autres...remonte au 16ème siècle, mais pour la pastilla j'ai assisté à de grands débats entre femmes qui discutaient précisément de l'utilisation des œufs : Certaines veulent les omettre car on les utilise pas dans la recette originale ???? la cuisine évolue les Hommes aussi, et la pastilla a due emprunter plusieurs couloirs de cuisine durant des siècles avant d'être rendue au stade de plat de grandes réceptions marocaines. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.65.183.159 (talk) 23:16, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Oui C'EST typiquement marocain. L'algérien n'a rien avoir avec la pastilla ou les autres spécialités marocaines. ZitoutFadadich (talk) 08:34, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 May 2020

An Algerian had edited this page. Bastilla was not eaten in Algeria until recently, it is not a national dish of theirs. Every historian knows pastilla is a Moorish dish that spread to Morocco. The Algerians who immigrated to Tetouan in the 19th century had no impact on Moroccan culture, this dish has been eaten by the royal family for centuries. Batilla is uniquely Moroccan, the same way Gharnati music is Algerian. Leila.andalusi (talk) 17:36, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Please cite reliable sources for this. – Thjarkur (talk) 17:42, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 April 2021

Gurleal (talk) 18:25, 10 April 2021 (UTC) I want to add something

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone will add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. Jalen Folf (talk) 18:32, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 September 2021

The Pastilla dish as it is today was developed by Moroccans, but was inspired by similar Spanish/Andalusian dish. It has nothing to do with Algerians, Algerians have little to no influence to their culture in comparison to Morocco. Algeria was an Ottoman the a French colony. Northern Morocco had a long history with Andalusia of Spain, and most of the expelled Moors settled in Morocco. It is the Algerians who took the dish from Moroccan in recent years.

In this section, where it is stated " The historian Idriss Bouhlila, while acknowledging that Tetuanis consider the dish to be of Andalusi origin, posited that the dish was introduced into Morocco by the Algerians who migrated to Tétouan after the French invasion of Algiers in 1830,[5] corroborating Gaul's theory that its name, which according to Bouhlila is of Turkish origin, and the werqa pastry used to make it spread from Tetuan to the rest of Morocco sometime after 1830."

It is known that Algerians including their "academics" attempt to falsify historical facts or reinterpret historical facts about particularly Morocco that's including essence of Moroccan cultural heritage.

Someone postulating is not a reference for proof of the claims. Warrior4just (talk) 04:41, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (talk) 06:15, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

@Warrior4just: I may have partially addressed some of your concerns by reworking that section slightly. I agree that the placement of the input from Idriss Bouhila suggesting a 19th century ahead of the other content suggesting a Moroccan origin in the 16th century was anachronistic in terms of order and arguably gave both undue emphasis to the former. I also agree that it is hard to find any details about this historian, who is clearly not particularly prominent. However, if you want to make specific claims about the transmission of the dish to Algeria, find sources. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:31, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

It is known that Algerians including their "academics" attempt to falsify historical facts Your claims are as baseless as your so-called concerns. The historian Idriss Bouhlila (who is mentioned by Anny Gaul) is Moroccan (sadly, he passed way last year). He was Professor of Higher Education at he faculty of Arts and Humanities at the University of Tetouan, Head of the history division, the Coordinator of the History and Civilization course and a Member of the Moroccan Association for Historical Research.[1][2]

Suggesting that he was somehow a second class historian is clearly nonsense. I have restored the paragraph to its original position and the sourced content that was deleted/changed without a valid reason. The fact that one historian corroborated the theory of another cannot be dismissed just because it hurts the feelings of some nationalists. I also removed the misleading disputed/unknown origin from the infobox. M.Bitton (talk) 12:46, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification over Idriss Bouhlila, but the sentence about a Turkish etymological origin theory being corroborated still needs to be preceded by an actual sentence proposing a Turkish etymological origin for one of the names. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:34, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

That's not what was corroborated. Please read the sentence again and don't reorder or delete sourced content as you did without giving a valid reason. M.Bitton (talk) 13:38, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Ok, which name? Pastilla, (رزيمة) or tajik? Iskandar323 (talk) 13:45, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

If you are not going to let other people edit for sense, at least do it yourself. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:46, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Pastilla (Bastilla). The "rzima" and "tajik" is what it's also known as in some areas (mainly the east of the country). If it's confusing, those two can be removed. M.Bitton (talk) 13:49, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Bouhlila book

Hello everybody,

I'm on the book of Driss Bouhlila and I don't find where Bouhlila said that the dish is algerian origin ? According to Bouhlila (I contact him few month ago), he never said that, he don't speak a lot but he supposed that the warqa was brought by ottomans from algiers when they install in Tetouan, but he never speak about the dish. Anne Gaul, based on Bouhlila informations said the same, here [3]. So, can you give me a source where Bouhlila said that please ? Thx. --SegoviaKazar (talk) 21:37, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Every time you get blocked on the French wiki, you turn up here with another story. I have no intention of entertaining this one as the previous discussion speak for themselves. M.Bitton (talk) 22:18, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Personnal attack and no answer for my question. Thanks. --SegoviaKazar (talk) 22:34, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Bastilla

Bastilla Is moroccan food 93.132.138.49 (talk) 08:52, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Pastilla and others

Pastilla is an authentic Moroccan dish, stop stealing other's traditions and History. Wikipedia's changes become really unacceptable. ZitoutFadadich (talk) 08:30, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

OPED and source misrepresentation

@SegoviaKazar: With regard to this edit:

You've already been made aware of the MOS:OPED guideline, so there is no reason for you to ignore it. If any of it is not clear to you, you can always ask for assistance at the Teahouse.

The "New Larousse Gastronomique" is not a scholarly source. Written by Chefs, journalists, restaurateurs, sommeliers, nutritionists, etc., any claim it makes in passing about history is irrelevant.

For the second source: I have no idea who C. Sinclair is, though a quick search reveals that he may well be a chef, but what is certain is that you misrepresented what the source says. M.Bitton (talk) 14:12, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

@SegoviaKazar: This edit is not consistent with what Bouhlila's source say, so I suggest you stop misrepresenting the sources (the is the second source that you misrepresent). The second is, until proven otherwise, a claim by a chef and therefore irrelevant. M.Bitton (talk) 20:03, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: Go read the source instead of pretending that I misrepresented it

It says : "Turkish language and culture infused northern Morocco with new words, sartorial items, and consumption habits––including the custom of drinking coffee and a number of foods, especially sweets like baqlawa. While Bouhlila acknowledges that most Tetouanis consider bastila to be Andalusi, he suggests that the word itself is of Turkish origin and arrived with the Algerians."

... "Bouhlila’s study corroborated the theory that the paper-thin ouarka used to make bastila, as well as the name of the dish itself, were introduced to Morocco by way of Tetouani cuisine sometime after 1830"

So we need to correct what is written in the current text. --SegoviaKazar (talk) 20:21, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

@SegoviaKazar: I have read both sources (Bouhlila's, that you obviously haven't read, and Gaul's) and I stick by the fact that you are misrepresenting what Bouhlila said. M.Bitton (talk) 20:30, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: I don't accept your personal attacks. So be courteous. This source is in Arabic so I refer to Gaul who quotes Bouhlila's work. Everything that is written in the article comes from the source of Gaul so this must be changed. You must respect what is said in the sources. --SegoviaKazar (talk) 20:49, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

@SegoviaKazar: It's not an attack, it's a fact, you are misrepresenting what Bouhlila said. Contrary to what you claim, not everything is written based on Gaul's source alone, Bouhlila's source, that Gaul mentioned, is there to support exactly what he said. M.Bitton (talk) 20:55, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: "Bouhlila's, that you obviously haven't read" is a personnel attack so stop this. And I've already written you what Gaul's source says. And it doesn't match up with what's in the article.

It says : "Turkish language and culture infused northern Morocco with new words, sartorial items, and consumption habits––including the custom of drinking coffee and a number of foods, especially sweets like baqlawa. While Bouhlila acknowledges that most Tetouanis consider bastila to be Andalusi, he suggests that the word itself is of Turkish origin and arrived with the Algerians."

... "Bouhlila’s study corroborated the theory that the paper-thin ouarka used to make bastila, as well as the name of the dish itself, were introduced to Morocco by way of Tetouani cuisine sometime after 1830"

So this part needs to be modified in accordance with the source. --SegoviaKazar (talk) 21:12, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

If adding the Turkish origin of the name is all you're after, then it's a not problem, I will add it. M.Bitton (talk) 21:18, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

@SegoviaKazar: What part of what Bouhlila said in his book don't you understand? M.Bitton (talk) 21:55, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

What you're doing is called vandalism. You're deflecting Gaul's source. And you're using Arabic sources on Wikipedia English. --SegoviaKazar (talk) 22:21, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

If you believe that's the case, then I suggest you take your concerns to WP:ANI and tell them exactly what you said here about using Arabic sources on Wikipedia English. In the meantime, I will ping إيان who was also involved in the edit in question that we reached through consensus. M.Bitton (talk) 22:31, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Hello, thanks for the ping M.Bitton. Regarding sources in Arabic, you are surely aware of Wikipedia:RSUE; you could have just informed SegoviaKazar instead of setting this user up for a trap at WP:ANI. Anyway, out of courtesy here is a translation of the relevant Arabic text from the Bouhlila source:

"And if Tetuani society was influenced in its daily life by some of the Ottoman expressions and clothing, then Tetuani cuisine was also influenced, with beautiful varieties and dishes, by Algerian Ottoman foods and sweets. Of these we mention:
Bastila: considered one of the delicacies of Tetuani cuisine, while there are those who say that it is of Andalusi origin.
Baklava: ..."

I interpret this not as an explicit statement that bastila is Algerian, but rather as a brief mention in a list of examples of how Tetuani cuisine was influenced by Ottoman Algeria. It explicitly mentions that Tetuanis consider bastila to be of Andalusi origin.

Anny Gaul, who cited Bouhlila in her research, suggests that merely the name and werqa pastry are Ottoman, citing Andalusi stew recipes resembling the filling and writing: While Bouhlila acknowledges that most Tetouanis consider bastila to be Andalusi, he suggests that the word itself is of Turkish origin and arrived with the Algerians. and Bouhlila’s study corroborated the theory that the paper-thin ouarka used to make bastila, as well as the name of the dish itself, were introduced to Morocco by way of Tetouani cuisine sometime after 1830.. إيان (talk) 00:00, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@إيان: Given the baseless accusations, I didn't feel the need to educate them.

I interpret this not as an explicit statement that bastila is Algerian Nobody is suggesting that it is, just like nobody is suggesting that the Baklava, the Coffee drinking, etc. are. Pastilla is cited as part of the things that were introduced to Morocco by Algerians, nothing more, nothing less. Thanks for the reply. M.Bitton (talk) 00:10, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: Cool. I like the way it is now; I don't think the Ken Abala bit adds much meaningful info. It would be nice to get info on all of those influences of post-invasion Algerian migrants to Tetuan together somewhere. I'm adding the fact to Invasion of Algiers in 1830. Let me know if you have more ideas. إيان (talk) 00:31, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@إيان: The current version of the article doesn't agree with what you said. Gaul, who cited Bouhlila, said that the word came with the Algerians.

Gaul had no theories. However, in the article it is written: "corroborating Gaul's theory that "

"posited that the dish was introduced into Morocco by the Algerians who migrated to Tétouan after the French invasion of Algiers in 1830". That's incorrect. That's not what Bouhlila says.

--SegoviaKazar (talk) 01:06, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@إيان: I would like to propose a new wording in accordance with the sources given. Because it seems clear that what is written in the current article doesn't respect the sources. --SegoviaKazar (talk) 19:58, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

The word "Pastilla" isn't in any shape or form of turkish origin. The etymology of the word is clearly of spanish influence. The word has meaning in spanish "Pastillo", and I don't think you need a reference for what pastillo means. Knowing the history of Morocco, its connection to Andalusia, and the emigration post reconquista is a clear indication of its influence. This isn't speculation....it is a reasonable conclusion especially when we know that there was no influence of Ottomans on Morocco and that Morocco was a revered independent sultanate. In Moroccan arabic, words when simplified they are either made into an end pronoun attachment by adding "a/at". Let's also not forget that Moroccan north was a spanish colony, where as Algerian wasn't spanish colony. Warrior4just (talk) 21:29, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

@SegoviaKazar:

• Gaul, who cited Bouhlila, said that the word came with the Algerians.—the word and the warqa pastry.
• Gaul had no theories.—She literally wrote:

  Bouhlila’s study corroborated the theory that the paper-thin ouarka used to make bastila, as well as the name of the dish itself, were introduced to Morocco by way of Tetouani cuisine sometime after 1830.

• I would like to propose a new wording in accordance with the sources given.What do you propose? إيان (talk) 22:17, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

It is exactly what Bouhlila said in his book (unless you want to add that he refers to it as an Ottoman-Algerian dish). In fact even if we remove Gaul's source and all the content attributed to it, the part that is attributed to Bouhlila would still satisfy WP:VERIFIABILITY all by itself. M.Bitton (talk) 22:27, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: That's what I think too, but let's see what SegoviaKazar has to say. Also, the "Ottoman-Algerian" phrasing seems appropriate to me as filo pastry is typically an eastern Mediterranean thing. إيان (talk) 22:34, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Hello everybody, I'm sorry but I want to participate to the debate, in the book of Bouhlila, it's not read that pastilla came to Morocco by algerian refugee in Tetuan, currently in Morocco pastilla is not from Tetouan but from Fez, and it was a meat for "rich people", Tetouan was a little city in Morocco and have no big importance in Morocco, at the limit it's possible that ottomans refugee (from big city like Tlemcen) enter pastilla in Tetouan, but not in Morocco, this is not in the source. And we can see that today, pastilla is not a regular meat of Algeria and for evidance, I have a source more accurate about pastilla and even if the origin of pastilla is in debate, but for evidance what specialist are sure is that pastilla was from Morocco in North Africa.

As we can read from the specialist culinar Marin Wagda in french:

• "Car marocaine est la pastilla même si on la pratique avec tout autant d'art dans l'ouest de l'Algerie et la gastronomie maghrebinne moderne."

Source

So, we have an evidance here, that pastilla move from Morocco to all of north africa, and even in the world like Europe or America, it's become a part of the mondial gastronomy.

Have a nice day . Ifni95 (talk) 14:36, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

For what Bouhlila said, I suggest you read the above discussion.

You WP:OR about Tetuan is in direct contradiction to what Gaul and Bouhlila said.

Magda Warin's article is about the origin of the word "Pastilla", not the history of the dish. Who is Magda Warin, what are their credentials and what section of their article are you interested in? M.Bitton (talk) 23:30, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

But Gaul never said what you said: "Pastilla is cited as part of the things that were introduced to Morocco by Algerians, nothing more, nothing less." . In the article it speak only about the warqa and the name. So how we can interpret with what is wrote in the wikipedia page: "Pastilla is cited as part of the things that were introduced to Morocco by Algerians" this is not in the source.

The source said: "While Bouhlila acknowledges that most Tetouanis consider bastila to be Andalusi, he suggests that the word itself is of Turkish origin and arrived with the Algerians." . Look like a problem.

After, for my source this is an article special for pastilla and this is not only about the origin of the word as you can see

• "Car marocaine est la pastilla même si on la pratique avec tout autant d'art dans l'ouest de l'Algerie et la gastronomie maghrebinne moderne."

This is an important specifical source for the subject. Ifni95 (talk) 00:18, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

It's Bouhlila who said what's attributed to him in his book. Read the above discussion and you'll understand.

You haven't answered any of my questions. M.Bitton (talk) 00:41, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

This sentence "Pastilla is cited as part of the things that were introduced to Morocco by Algerians" is not in the source neither Gaul neither Bouhlila.

I don't understand your question ? Ifni95 (talk) 02:07, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Nor should it be. That's my comment in response to another editor that you're quoting.

You're just making me repeat myself unnecessarily: Magda Warin's article is about the origin of the word "Pastilla", not the history of the dish. This is clearly stated in her article.

As for the questions, here they are (again): Who is Magda Warin, what are their credentials and what section of their article are you interested in? M.Bitton (talk) 02:36, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm bad in english, I think you can speak french, are you ready to mix the debate with french ? We cannot choose the type of source to validate them. This is a study about pastilla, so this is a good source and this study give us an important information, so we have to use it, we can use the others source too.

• "Car marocaine est la pastilla même si on la pratique avec tout autant d'art dans l'ouest de l'Algerie et la gastronomie maghrebinne moderne."

This source is totally available.

And an other thing what it's write in this article is not true, I went to p128-129 of Bouhlila book in arabic, like it's write in the source of this article, this is absoluty not write what is quoting in this article.

So, it's look very strange to put information not written in the source

And sorry but my english is not good to explain. Ifni95 (talk) 18:46, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

References

Pastilla origins

There's a mistake in Pastilla's origin. It's Moroccan and nothing else. نوفل بنسعيد (talk) 23:50, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Cite your sources, نوفل بنسعيد. إيان (talk) 03:24, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

there is a lot of books that showes that pastilla s moroccan in fact most of algerians never tasted bastilla they don´t even know how to make it i guess the person who added algeria next to morocco must be reffering to the dough but just because one ingredient is used in another country it does not mean that the whole plate is from that country

Moroccan Mystery: The Passport Series - Nancy V. Riley - Google Livres

Celebration: Proceedings of the Oxford Symposium on Food and Cookery 2011 - Google Livres

Moroccan Cookbook - Moroc Tagine - James Newton - Google Livres

Guide de l'Orient à Paris - Sophie Noguès - Google Livres

مصرية في بلاد بره - Sakīnah Sādāt - Google Livres

Encyclopedia of Jewish Food - Gil Marks - Google Livres

ابن بطوطة الرياضي لنجيب المستكاوي - IslamKotob - Google Livres

Marrakech, una huida - José Carlos García Fajardo - Google Livres

L’interculturel à travers le multimédia dans l’enseignement du français ... - RIVERO VILA, Isabel - Google Livres

TECHNO CULINAIRE - MAINCENT MOREL MICHEL - Google Livres

Maroc - Sophie Loizillon - Google Livres

انبعاث الإسلام في الأندلس - علي المنتصر الكتاني ،الأستاذ الدكتور - Google Livres

أكتب إليكِ من بلدٍ بعيد - علاء خالد, دار الشروق - Google Livres 196.127.94.53 (talk) 16:49, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Pastilla is not the speciality of algeria

Their is no record of algerians making pastilla even today no algerian knows how to make it, moroccans on the other hand have passed the recipe from generation to another 196.127.14.214 (talk) 13:57, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

Dubious claim attributed to a source

@Mr bott1: How can this historian "debunk" a study that was published decades after his death? Also, since your cited ref leads to a bunch of PDFs, we have no idea which one or what page to read. Can you please supply both, and ideally the relevant quote from it. Thanks. M.Bitton (talk) 12:06, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi, I m sorry but you can’t delete the entire paragraph because you didn’t like one word, btw the book i used is referenced by idriss bouhlila in the book YOU provided and in the same page you used, go to part 3 page 93 of the book and read it yourself. If you want to edit it just let me know and we can figure something out . Mr bott1 (talk) 16:42, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

@M.Bitton i deleted the entire sentence and mentioned the page and everything you would need, again i found this book mentioned by the writer bouhlila in his book, also if there is anything you would like to change please let me know in the talk section to avoid an editing war that is based on false accusations Mr bott1 (talk) 16:57, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

@Mr bott1: Unless you address the raised concerns and provide a quotation as asked (to prove that you didn't misrepresent it again), it will be deleted again. Can you also provide the year of the first publication of this book (as age matters when it comes to the reliability of sources) and if the book was used by a recent scholar, it means that they took what they thought was appropriate from it and left the rest (usually for a reason). M.Bitton (talk) 17:07, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

"االبسطيلة كلمة افرنجية و هي نوع من الاطعمة الفاخرة، يصنع من اوراق رقيقة جدا تعمل من رقيق الدقيق الخالص خمير يسمى الديون فتطبخ الدجاج او افراخ الحمام او الكفتة مع البيض و البصل و التوابل و زعفران و الليمون الحامض و يغلف الجميع في تلك الاوراق ثم توجه الى الفرن و تطبخ به على الجهتين فتكون من الذ الماكل و ارفعها و كثيرا ما يصدر بها الوان الطعام في المحافل الكبيرة. وهذا العمل فيما يظهر تركي جلبه اهل الجزائر منها الى تطوان و غيرها عام 1246 ، او اهل الاندلس ثم تبث عندي ان المصنوعة من اوراق القنوطة كانت موجودة هنا قبل هجرة الجزائريين فتكون بذلك من عمل الاندلسيين"

"this work (referring to patela) seems to be Turkish brought by the Algerians to Tetouan and other cities in 1246 (islamic year) , or the moors. later, it has been proved to me that the ones made with cunuta dough existed here ( tetouan ) before the migration of the algerians therefore it's the work of the moor"

the book was originally published in 1953 in both arabic and spanish [4][5] but the one i refrenced was republished in 2003 by the Association Tetouan Asmir and with the help of the Dr Jaafar Ben El Haj Soulami who worked with the association reviewing many books and manuscripts to help the readers understand the words. here you can find some of the works of Dr Jaafar Ben El Haj Soulami [6] or if you want to you can google his name or that of the association to learn more about them. thanks

p Mr bott1 (talk) 22:08, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. The first thing I notice is that it's different from what you added to the article. With regard to the publication date, unless I'm mistaken, the sources that you cited mention his death date and not the publication date of the book and describe him as an Islamic scholar. M.Bitton (talk) 22:16, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

the book i referenced says in page 171 "احمد بن محمد الرهوني التطواني، ابو عباس: مؤرخ ، اديب كان شيخ الجامعة في مدينة تطوان" which translates to Aḥmad bin Muḥammad al‑Rahūnī Tiṭwān abu abas: historian, writer and the sheikh of the university in Tetouan. the same book says that عمدة الراوين في تاريخ تطاوين was written by his own hands and the year he passed away a summary of the book was published in spanish.[7] [8] [9] i added other sources if you wanna check it out but if you wanna learn more about him [10] this article written by Dr Idriss khalifa and the references he used should be helpful. @M.Bitton Mr bott1 (talk) 00:15, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

All of them repeat more or less the same thing, but without mentioning when the book was published. Anyway, for the sake of moving forward, let's just say that it must have been written before or in 1953 at the latest (the year of the author's death), which would mean that it's his claim that has been superseded and not the other way round (as you wrote in the article). Please read WP:AGEMATTERS for more info.

It's also worth mentioning (in case he's used for some other claims) that the last source that you cited (the only one that goes into some details about his life) portrays him as a typical Madrasa-educated Faqīh. M.Bitton (talk) 19:35, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

he obviously wrote the book by himself that's why it's been used by so many historians, if you would just google its name you would be able to see how many books used Aḥmad bin Muḥammad al‑Rahūnī Tiṭwān's work. he started writing right after he came back from Fes as it is stated in the first volume of the book page 26 "ما ان عاد العلامة الرهوني من فاس عام 1315هجرية،1898/7، حتى اشتغل بالتدريس و التاليف . وما ان شرع في كتابه "عمدة الراوين" حتى كانت مؤلفاته قد طالت لائحتها" I don´t understand why would you think that all these scholar have used a book that is not authentic. not to mention that the original manuscript is still in the library of Tetuan "الرهوني سيدي احمد بن محمد : عمدة الراوين في تاريخ تطاويين الجزء الاول. نسخة من المخطوطة، موجودة في المكتبة العامة و المحفوظات بتطوان"page 139

"ولقد تحرينا في عملنا استغلال المعلومات المتوفرة في أهم مصادر البحث ، مثل عمدة الراوين في تاريخ تطاوين للفقيه أبي العباس أحمد الرهوني ، وهو مخطوط في عشرة أجزاء بالمكتبة العامة والمحفوظات بتطوان" page 4 [11]

it´s also worth mentioning that the source you say portrays him as Faqih is actually titled المؤرخ العلامة أحمد الرهوني meaning the historian

finally if historians from all over the world, including those referenced by wikipedia's users, find this book reliable why shouldn't we? unless you find a source that says that the book is fake, i don´t see why i can´t use it. if it´s good enough for Idriss bouhlila and other historians it´s good enough for wikipedia. if you don't like my interpretation of the source feel free to make some suggestions. Mr bott1 (talk) 01:48, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

he obviously wrote the book by himself Did I say otherwise? No!

why would you think... a book that is not authentic Did I say anything about it not being authentic (whatever that means)? No!

The source that you provided portrays him as a typical Faqīh (the title is irrelevant when the content tells a different story). The Madrasa that he attended, the jobs that he held, the Friday sermons that he delivered, the Islamic order that he joined, etc., everything about his journey makes him a typical Islamic jurist.

Since you're mentioning other historians: unlike us, they are free to use whatever source they think is relevant, either as a primary or secondary source, and ignore or contradict what they disagree with (that's their prerogative). If as you said, Bouhlila used this old book and decided to contradict a claim made in it, then it's all the more reason for us to ignore it since its analysis has been carried out by a proper historian.

if you don't like my interpretation The fundamental issue here is that your source turned up to be the exact opposite of what you stated, i.e, it's the claim in it that was debunked and not the other war round.

I already explained to you why we don't use sources that have been superseded and even gave a you link to WP:AGEMATTERS, which says: [in] academic fields, older sources may be inaccurate because new information has been brought to light, new theories proposed, or vocabulary changed. Be sure to check that older sources have not been superseded, especially if it is likely that new discoveries or developments have occurred in the last few years. M.Bitton (talk) 16:43, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

so according to you, a well educated man who has a numerous publications (which based on Wikipedia is enough to be a historian) about the history of Tetouan is not a historian because he studied religion (which was the most common thing back then and allowed him to become a judge ). Also all the books and historians calling him a historian are wrong.

there is a reason why all of them are calling him a historian. Try reading some of his books and you will find out why. Mr bott1 (talk) 08:36, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Actually, it's your source that describes him as a [Madrasa] educated Faqīh, while emphasising his position of Faqīh, not once or twice, but 16 times in a single article. In any case, even if he was a historian, it still wouldn't change a thing to what I said above. M.Bitton (talk) 19:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

You just didn’t like what he said so you’re coming up with excuses, first you said that he is not a historian as if all the books i gave you were coming up with it and then you say that the book has been suppressed. As far as i can tell you’re the only one suppressing it. The book was literally republished in 2003 and every word has been explained so there is no issue with vocabulary, what he said about the pastilla being made with canuta dough was never ever debunked by any historian, none of them explicitly say it. even bouhlila admitted some some consider it to be of andalusi origin just like rahuni did. Mr bott1 (talk) 23:12, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 January 2023

"The Bastila is specifically a Moroccan dish. Algeria has nothing to do with this and you'll find this country tries its best to take credit for many Moroccan dishes." 196.74.205.20 (talk) 12:32, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. Melmann 13:35, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 March 2023

41.251.197.1 (talk) 03:33, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Hello, there is a misunderstanding about the pastilla origin country, it is stated morocco and algeria while it's only morocco because I know many algerian tries to label moroccan food as maghrebian, meaning that it's algerian and Moroccan at the same time, wich is a false aspect about our culture, furthermore there is no chef in algeria that can make the same pastilla as morocco o a professional in it, while in Morocco every single woman knows the exact recipe and Ingredients to make it. That is why I'm submitting my edit request hoping for a soon reply. Thank you.

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Lightoil (talk) 08:02, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Pastilla is a traditional Moroccan dish that has its roots only in Moroccan cuisine

Pastilla, also known as bastilla, is generally considered to be a traditional Moroccan dish that has its roots in Moroccan cuisine.

This book supports the idea that pastilla is a traditional Moroccan dish The Food of Morocco by Paula Wolfert. In the book, Wolfert describes pastilla as a "famous Moroccan pie" that is often served as an appetizer or main course.

Similarly, in the book Couscous and Other Good Food from Morocco, also by Paula Wolfert, pastilla is described as a "rich, sweet-savory, and spicy Moroccan dish."

The Food of Morocco by Tess Mallos is a cookbook that includes recipes for traditional dishes such as couscous, tagines, and pastilla. Mourad: New Moroccan by Mourad Lahlou features modern takes on traditional Moroccan dishes and includes a recipe for duck pastilla. The Moroccan Cookbook by Hilaire Walden provides an overview of Moroccan cuisine and includes recipes for a variety of dishes, including pastilla. Authentic Recipes from Morocco by Fatima Mernissi includes recipes for traditional Moroccan dishes, including pastilla. The Complete Middle Eastern Cookbook by Tess Mallos provides an overview of Middle Eastern cuisine, including Moroccan dishes such as pastilla. Overall, these sources indicate that pastilla is a traditional Moroccan dish and is not commonly shared with other cultures or countries.

In the article, some sources link confirming, that Pastilla is not exclusive traditional Moroccan, are no longer working and are not a book or solid source. Prospeak (talk) 07:35, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Specialty

"It is a specialty of Morocco and Algeria." Isn't that an obvious WP:OR, misrepresentation of sources and misleading? Pastilla is absolutely not a specialty of Algeria!

Fist of all this PDF is not available anymore.. Secondly, it is true that Gaul's source suggested that the pastilla was introduced to Tetuan by the Algerian immigrants in the 19th century, however it doesn't suggest that the dish is a specialty of Algeria in 21st century! The mention of Algeria should be removed from the lead! Thanks.

Simoooix.haddi (talk) 02:26, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

 Note: this nationalist crap has been discussed ad-nauseam with plenty of single purpose accounts and their socks. The result is always the same: they move on once they realize that they're wasting their time. M.Bitton (talk) 02:51, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Again! You didn't answer any of the points i raised above, but instead you have made baseless accusations. Simoooix.haddi (talk) 03:08, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton firstly, the comment that you left here is an obvious personal attack.

Secondly, the reference that you have moved to the lead doesn't suggest that the pastilla is a "specialty" of Algeria while it already suggest that for Morocco. You didn't fix anything the problem is still the same. Simoooix.haddi (talk) 05:15, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Take your complaint to WP:ANI. The origin and were it's consumed is sourced (whether some like it or not). M.Bitton (talk) 13:05, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton. The only reliable source (so far) that gives a clear indication of the origin is the encyclopedia of Jewish food (actually i agree with إيان's last edit).

"Where it's conumed is sourced", Well thank you for using the word "consumed", Yes indeed the source suggest that Pastilla is consumed in Algeria just like Paella and French fries, however it doesn't suggest that the dish is a specialty of Algeria and thus this is a misrepresentation of sources. Otherwise Paella, Kebab and french fries are specialties of Algeria as well. Simoooix.haddi (talk) 13:50, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

The origin has been discussed to death (see above), When two historians agree with each other, there is nothing that either you or anyone else can do about it. As for the speciality, that's determined by where it's consumed and for how long (that's sourced too). Unfortunately, some people tend to confuse the belly dancing crap that is sold to tourists with the history of a country they know diddly squat about. M.Bitton (talk) 14:01, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton, your addition of Malsouka (which the encyclopedia of jewish food describes it as the Tunisian version of Moroccan Pastilla) seems fine to me, i wish if you just bring some such RS that suggest the same for Algeria. Regarding your comments, i suggest you refrain falsely accusing editors of "nationalist editing" or "pleasing nationalit crap" as that could be considered as personal attack. Also this revert doesn't make anysense at all,moreover what the Encyclopedia of Jewish Food has to say deserves to be mentioned above as it is one of the most reliable sources in the field. Simoooix.haddi (talk) 14:29, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't need to bring any more RS than what's already in the article (more than enough). Why would a historian of Jewish food deserve more attention than two historians agreeing with each other? Is it because the Moroccan historian is less worthy? M.Bitton (talk) 14:33, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton Here i'm going to repeat my self, neither of the two cited sources suggests that the pastilla is a specialty of Algeria, i have already exlpained why.

Regarding your question, maybe because "Wikipedia over-focuses on publisher instead of author reputability" or probably because Gil Marks is an expert food Historian (you can choose whatever you want). Simoooix.haddi (talk) 15:03, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Unlike you, I won't repeat myself because clearly, you're just splitting hairs now. M.Bitton (talk) 15:06, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton Here is a a quotation from the book "Street food is very popular in Algeria. [...]In the evening entire town squares are turned into street-food bazaars serving more extravagant dishes such as paella and bastila (...description of bastila...)". Could you please explain how that is suggesting that Pastilla is an Algerian specialty? And if it does what about paella (the spanish dish)? Simoooix.haddi (talk) 15:33, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

It's a speciality of the Maghreb. I know this is hard for you to comprehend, but Algeria is massive and has more dishes than you can imagine. Bastilla is just one of them, no more no less (people don't light a fire and dance around it, nor do they feel the need to bang on about it to the local tourists). What you're on about here could be said about every single dish that they consume occasionally (unlike tajines and couscous for instance). M.Bitton (talk) 15:43, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton

1)-Well, you didn't answer my question and you didn't even discuss the content of the book.

2)-"but Algeria is massive and has more dishes than you can imagine. Bastilla is just one of them, no more no less (people don't light a fire and dance around it, nor do they feel the need to bang on about it to the local tourists)." Is that our subject right now? Did i say anything about the food or the culture of Algeria?

The issue now is about to which country (or region) we have to attribute the specialty of the dish (and its versions). Pizza, Sushi, Burgers ,Paella ... i think all of these must be consumed in Algeria (occasionally or whatsoever) but does that makes them a specialty of the country?

Moreover, the origin of the dish doesn't really matter here (even if nothing is confirmed yet) and there is a lot of examples for that. The majority of sources when they mention Pastilla they describes it (directly or indirectly) as Moroccan. But to be fair i won't object mentioning that "the dish is consumed in Algeria". Simoooix.haddi (talk) 16:15, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

You don't have to be fair, you just have to respect the wp policies. This is a speciality of the Maghreb (whose origin is disputed). M.Bitton (talk) 16:22, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton Anyway, what matters now is that you haven't answered my questions above about the source that you have moved to the lead! I'm really waiting for your answer Simoooix.haddi (talk) 16:36, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

The fact that you don't like the answers doesn't mean that the questions haven't been answered.. Luckily, now we have a third editor involved. I'm done here. M.Bitton (talk) 16:41, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton "What you're on about here could be said about every single dish that they consume occasionally (unlike tajines and couscous for instance)" I'm unsure if I understood your meaning correctly, but would you accept including Algeria (as a specialty) in the Paella article based on the source you moved to the lead? Simoooix.haddi (talk) 17:59, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

That's an asinine comparison. Is anyone suggesting that Paella has been introduced to Spain through Algeria? No! We're not talking about Paella are we? We are talking about Bastila (which is consumed in the Maghreb and whose origin is disputed). Now, do me a favour and stop pinging me. M.Bitton (talk) 18:53, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Neither of the two available sources (as the PDF is not available anymore) suggest that the dish is a specialty of Algeria (that's a fact). The first one could probably suggests that it was it was a specialty of Algeria in the 19th century and not the 21st century (which contradicts other sources). As for the one that you moved to the lead i have already explained that. What you suggest is called OR. Simoooix.haddi (talk) 20:31, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the note about the PDF link being broken, I added an archive URL. MrOllie (talk) 20:51, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

@MrOllie I'm sorry but have you read the whole discussion (seriously)? as i have mentioned that already above. Simoooix.haddi (talk) 21:53, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes. I have read and understood your points, I just disagree. MrOllie (talk) 22:04, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

@Roxy the dog: since Simoooix.haddi keeps tagging the lead, could you please look into this? How on earth can a dish that is consumed in Algeria and potentially introduced from there to Morocco, as per the sources, not be a speciality of the country? I did my best to explain this to them, but for some unknown reason, they kept comparing it to Paella. M.Bitton (talk) 20:20, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Well when you bring an RS that confirms what you are claiming you're welcome to remove the tag.(i would remove it by myself) otherwise your suggestion is nothing but OR and misrepresentation of sources. Simoooix.haddi (talk) 20:35, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

The existing RS support the statement, so I removed the tag. MrOllie (talk) 20:47, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi @MrOllie could you please take a look at the points raised in this discussion, and explain why did you remove the tag? Simoooix.haddi (talk) 20:48, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

I removed the tag because the existing RS support the statement, as I just said. I did review the points raised in this discussion - I am convinced by the ones raised by M.Bitton. MrOllie (talk) 20:52, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

@MrOllie thank you for adding the archived URL, i really appreciate that. Upon reviewing the PDF, I noticed that Pastilla is referred to as "Marocaine" (Moroccan) and that it could be prepared in western Algeria (l'Ouest de l'Algérie). Therefore, I recommend specifying "western Algeria" instead of simply "Algeria" in the lead. Thanks. Simoooix.haddi (talk) 21:09, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

That article was there to support the statement that it's used in Morocco. This has been discussed before (search for Magda Warin, an opinion of a nobody discussing the origin of the word). Frankly, your relentless attempts at changing the lead despite what the article says feels more and more desperate. M.Bitton (talk) 21:12, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Other than that PDF there are infinite sources confiriming that the dish is a specialty of Morocco!

Both Of you didn't even tried to discuss the content of the cited sources. But instead you just wanted to impose your POV. I've seen no valid answer to my points yet. All what i see is just OR and misrepresentation of sources. Simoooix.haddi (talk) 21:39, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

None of which can change the fact that the exact origin of the dish is unknown and disputed. The only editor who's trying to impose their POV (through appropriation of a common heritage) is you. Anyway, you now have all the answers you need, so I suggest you drop the stick. M.Bitton (talk) 21:50, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

"the exact origin of the dish is unknown and disputed". I didn't say otherwise. But since when origin means specialty? Simoooix.haddi (talk) 22:04, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton there is no such RS that suggests that the dish is of Algerian origin (including Bouhila and Gaul) (i think this guy agrees with me). However there are ones suggesting that it is of Moroccan origin (e.g Encyclopedia of Jewish food). Simoooix.haddi (talk) 23:37, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Changing the title of this discussion section to POV push is very unhelpful. Stop doing that. If you want to change the article you'll need to get agreement from other editors, and antics like that are not going to help in doing so. MrOllie (talk) 01:32, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

April 2023

@إيان: please explain what has changed between the time that we discussed the issue and agreed on it and now? M.Bitton (talk) 14:06, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Hello M.Bitton,

I believe you are now in violation of WP:3RR on this article. I won't report you, but just a heads-up.

As I explained in the edit summary, there is a difference between agreement and simply not having the patience at a given moment. The contribution in question:

According to Ken Albala, the basic concept of pastilla was likely brought to Morocco by Moorish Muslims who left Spain in the 16th century, or perhaps earlier, because there had been considerable traffic between Morocco and Spain since the Moors conquered the latter in the seventh century.

The historian Idriss Bouhlila—while acknowledging that most of the people of Tetuan consider the dish to be of Andalusi origin—lists baṣṭīla (بصطيلة) among the Ottoman Algerian terms and dishes brought to the city with the Algerian migration to Tetuan in the aftermath of the French invasion of Algiers in 1830. Citing Bouhlila, Gaul deduces that pastilla's thin, crispy werqa pastry, like the phyllo of baklava and other desserts originating in the Eastern Mediterranean, arrived with the Algerian migrants to Tetuan, and spread from there to the rest of Morocco sometime after 1830. Gaul also notes the important role of dadas, women of West African descent employed as domestic servants in wealthy households, in the diffusion of the dish in Morocco.

Reflist
References

A: fixes chronology of history section (Albala discusses 16th c. while Gaul and Bouhlila discuss 19th c.)

B: clarifies what exactly is in Gaul and Bouhlila

C: introduces the important role of the dadas in the dish's diffusion in Morocco.

Please substantiate your POV, that this is to please the nationalist crap. إيان (talk) 14:36, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

1) You haven't answered the question (what is now "exact" that wasn't when you agreed with it?). 2) Could you also please explain why you removed the sourced statement "Bouhlila's study corroborated Gaul's theory"? 3) there is a difference between adding content and reshuffling it to suit one's pov (while removing content without a valid reason). 4) Do you have a reason to believe that WP:AGEMATTERS should be ignored? M.Bitton (talk) 14:39, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

If you read the source, the "Algerian exodus" theory appeared in Zette Guinaudeau's 1956 cookbook. Bouhlila in 2012 did not retroactively corroborate Gaul in 2019.

You haven't answered the question. —as I have already explained, this a red herring.

You have not yet substantiated your claim my contribution is to please the nationalist crap. إيان (talk) 14:51, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

If you read the source of the two historians who agreed with each other, you'll notice that it's from 2019. I see that you ignored the other questions (I wonder why). M.Bitton (talk) 14:53, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

This is nonsense and WP:casting aspersions. Age does matter. Gaul (2019) cited and contextualized Bouhlila (2012). That's the relationship between the two texts. Your objections are unfounded. إيان (talk) 15:14, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

The only nonsense here is the fact that you're turning agematters on its head and rewording the content that you previously agreed with to suit your POV. Pathetic! M.Bitton (talk) 15:21, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi Roxy the dog, would you kindly provide diffs and quotes for personal attacks you claim that I made? Also, which of my claims are unfounded? إيان (talk) 16:33, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

You made a baseless claim of personal attacks to justify your POV pushing and sourced content removal. M.Bitton (talk) 16:37, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

M.Bitton, the question was directed to Roxy the dog. Is it your account? إيان (talk) 16:39, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Are you accusing me of sockpuppetry? M.Bitton (talk) 16:41, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

I haven't accused you of anything. I was wondering why you presumed it was your place to interject with your POV and on a question clearly addressed to someone else. إيان (talk) 00:04, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Roxy the dog? إيان (talk) 21:14, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes you have and I can provide the diff to prove it. You clearly asked me in no uncertain terms if "Roxy the dog" is my account. That's a serious accusation of sockpuppetry directed at myself and "Roxy the dog". M.Bitton (talk) 21:17, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Look who's talking! Unlike إيان you've been directly accusing me of sockpuppetry since i joined wikipedia 2 months ago! Simoooix.haddi (talk) 00:44, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Also i don't think إيان is accusing you of sockpuppetry. What they said is clear and understandable. Simoooix.haddi (talk) 00:47, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm not a pocksuppet, but am feeling rather unwell at the moment, I can click Twinkle buttons, but dont ask me to think hard. - Roxy the dog 19:49, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Ngrams

Even Ngrams disagree with this whole nonsense in food articles. Pastilla:[12], Harira:[13] and Tajine: [14] . Simoooix.haddi (talk) 15:46, 6 April 2023 (UTC)