Talk:Pendle Hill

Parent Peak

The disinfobox had Kinder Scout as the "parent peak" , which is nonsense, so I have removed it. Johnbod (talk) 22:01, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

• I think it was correct (using the definition of Topographic prominence#Prominence parentage, which was linked in the infobox). If it was incorrect, it should be replaced by the correct parent peak. --Snigbrook ^(talk) 01:53, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

• • It is right. Pendle Hill is separated from the Bowland massif by the River Ribble, so to find the parent we have to look south-east to the South Pennines, and Kinder Scout is the first hill we come to which is both higher and more prominent. Mark J (talk) 09:20, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

As the article says, it is an "isolated" hill. Of the several different definitions at the linked article it meets only the last, rather meaningless one. To include it in the disinfobox seems misleading and unhelpful to the reader to me, but evidently that is how you like it. Johnbod (talk) 13:14, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I'm fairly sure it meets the other definitions as well, but that's of no consequence. You're right, for such an isolated hill the term isn't that helpful, but it makes more sense for most other hills and it's included here on the basis of consistency and so people can follow the hierarchy. Cheers, Mark J (talk) 11:40, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Peakbagger thinks Pendle Hill's immediate prominence parent is Ingleborough: [1]. AlexTiefling (talk) 11:46, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, that sounds reasonable, as it is 723 metres (2,372 ft). But it's still a good 30 miles away (over 31 by road). Martinevans123 (talk) 12:15, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

That's not surprising - prominence parents aren't necessarily close by, and Pendle Hill is indeed isolated. However, I'm not certain Peakbagger is always accurate; I tried its prominence chain for the county top of Greater London, and it followed Snowdon with a location in France, rather than Ben Nevis. It's possible it just thinks the Caledonian Canal is at sea level, though. AlexTiefling (talk) 12:37, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

So, why does it not go for Pen-y-ghent? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:03, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

I don’t know much about it, but I think that there is more than one system for determining the parent peak see:Topographic prominence#Parent peak. This source [2] (p26,141)) seems to be saying Kinder Scout. If we have a RS for it and it is used on other articles about hills then it should be here. If this is somehow problematic then find a source and write about it in the prose.--Trappedinburnley (talk) 18:09, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

It's only 50 miles away, so one could probably bag them both in the same day, with a following wind, couldn't one. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:32, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

um, pages 140-141 of that Mark Jackson source, you say? But, yes, the introduction to that book makes it all sound very complicated indeed. The crux seems to be the last paragraph of the first section of Chapter 2, on page 14? Except that I don't see how that works for Pendle Hill and Kinder Scout. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:48, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Even if I was the worlds most knowledgeable on this subject I should be pointing to a very reliable source rather trying to argue it. My limited understanding says it’s about traveling between the peaks along a ridgeline not as the crow flies. The only ridgeline that stands any chance in this case passes Foulridge and connects Pendle to the Pennines. Maybe the Aire Gap presents an obstacle heading north.--Trappedinburnley (talk) 20:06, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

The source you give to support Kinder Scout is a route (in reverse) from Pendle Hill via "the lump" to Winter Hill. If you can see a "ridge" of any kind there, you've much better eyesight than me! I just don't see how Pendle can be seen as being in "the same geographical area" as Kinder Scout - I mean, Manchester's in the way really. I think Jackson has produced a fine collection of "walks between big hills", but whether that constitutes evidence of parent and child (over a distance of at least 46 miles) I'm really not sure. I have to admit that I tend to see Pendle Hill as a bit of an orphan. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:26, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Trappedinburnley is correct - Debating the 'truth' is moot, the information presented should simply be verifiable using RS, which it seems it is. Topological definitions are odd, for sure, but they have a strict logical consistency. It doesn't really matter if Manchester or the Berlin Wall would get in the way of a good walk between the 2 peaks because contour maps are based on ground levels, right? nagualdesign 21:08, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Pen-y-ghent is 58 m higher and 10 miles nearer than Kinder Scout? But, yes, that's just the silly old geographical truth. I guess there must be some (mathematical) comparison of elevation lost/gained that Mr Jackson has applied, But I'm not sure I can see what it is. And then Peakbagger.com gives Ingleborough. Jackson is a book and looks very authoritative, so guess we'll have to go with Kinder Scout. But I think it may give the reader a misleading view of which larger hills are nearest. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:26, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

There's a lot of (relatively) low land between Pendle and Pen-y-Ghent. I'm guessing that that affects the calculation. I agree that it's confusing, but I don't think it's misleading. Isolated hills can have unexpected parents. A better view of which larger hills are nearest, regardless of topological definitions, should be written in prose. Boulsworth, Pen-y-Ghent and Ingleborough all deserve a mention, I think. nagualdesign 21:38, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

It's well worth going and re-reading the article on prominence. Prominence parentage is not the same as 'nearest higher summit'. The prominence parent of any given summit is the higher summit you'd have to go down the least distance towards sea level to reach. The key fact about Ingleborough appears to be that it's on the same side of Ribblesdale as Pendle; to get to Pen-y-Ghent, you'd have to descend to Ribblehead. AlexTiefling (talk) 21:41, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining that in a very clear way. But I think a bit of descriptive prose, as Nagual suggests, might be a lot clearer and more informative. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:43, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

...aaand I've just worked out why Peakbagger's lists don't make sense. It's looking for the next nearest peak with higher cumulative prominence, which is not the correct definition. Ingleborough is higher than Kinder Scout, but it's not as prominent. That means they can't both really be in the prominence ladder for Pendle Hill - every successive entry should be both higher and more prominent. AlexTiefling (talk) 21:47, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Got it: the key col for Kinder Scout, as described at the top of page 140 of the book, passes through Thornton-in-Craven - at the first grid reference listed on that page. That's the low point of the watershed between the North Sea and the Irish Sea, and it's also very close to Pendle Hill. But the line R1, listed next on the same page, which isolates the Kinder Scout main family from the Shining Tor family, passes up the Mersey and through Stockport, not terribly far south of Pendle Hill, before heading off south and eventually following the entire curve of the Trent as it wraps around the Peak. Presumably the highest point of R1 is higher than Thornton-in-Craven. (I'm guessing that this point lies at the top of Doveholes Dale.) It's the shape of the Trent which gives this unusual distribution for children of Kinder Scout. AlexTiefling (talk) 22:15, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

(It turns out that Pen-y-Ghent's prominence parent is Whernside, and that Kinder Scout, Whernside and Ingleborough all have Cross Fell for their parent.) AlexTiefling (talk) 22:19, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

I think Lancashire Social Services might have their work cut out here. I never realised Thornton in Craven was so significant geographically! But is the Pennine Way just a distraction here? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:24, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

It's not a coincidence at all! The Pennine Way sticks pretty close to the watershed all the way - hence passing over Kinder Scout and Cross Fell as well. It makes sense to cross from one peak's domain to another at the col, which is inevitably where the watershed crosses the domain boundary. I should say that although I'm an occasional hiker, and my family is from South Lancashire, including relatives in the Barnoldswick area to this day, I'm tackling this as a mathematician. It turns out real-life saddle-shaped surfaces aren't that different to theoretical ones. (In serious answer to the jesting question in your edit summary - Pendle Hill is so isolated that it has no prominence children of its own worth mentioning.) AlexTiefling (talk) 22:33, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, a bit of an old witch, you might say. Of course, Fair Snape Fell is only 37 m lower, and is less than 20 miles away. You get a very good view of Pendle's best side from Parlick! Martinevans123 (talk) 22:52, 13 June 2014 (UTC) ... that's Parlick, not Barlick, of course...!

I did do a double-take, I admit. It turns out that Parlick's parent is Fair Snape Fell, which in turn is the child of Ward's Stone (which makes sense, as Parlick is a shoulder of FSF, which is the southernmost extremity of the Forest of Bowland, and Ward's Stone is the top of it), which in turn has Ingleborough for a parent - hence the significance of the territory boundary being so close to Pendle Hill. AlexTiefling (talk) 23:28, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

.. if you've never yet been there, take my word for it - Ward's Stone can be a bit of a let down! (don't get confused). Martinevans123 (talk) 23:38, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Witch's cottage discovered

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-16066680

There is a discussion at Talk:Pendle witches. I think this link is certainly relevant to the Barley, Lancashire article. But I don't know the exact location of the homes of the Demdyke and Chattox families, or the supposed location of the Malkin Tower. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:01, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Nobody knows where Malkin Tower was! --Trappedinburnley (talk) 18:11, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, you can't say that here. You have to say "The location of Malkin Tower is uncertain." and refer to p. 39 of Froome (2010). Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:29, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Cites

While we’ve got a bit of attention on this article, how about we find a few more sources so we can lose the annoying banner? I’ve already had a dig about on pastscape for the Bronze Age burial but no luck. I suspect it is confused with the nearby site known as Jeppe Knave’s grave which isn’t actually on Pendle. I have a couple of ideas with history books, and I presume that there must be stuff relating to the AONB. Maybe walking or paragliding sources?--Trappedinburnley (talk) 12:53, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

What's this? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:58, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

We’re getting closer to the summit of Pendle but issues abound. I find it difficult to believe that this chap in 2006 was the first to discover a large Bronze Age site right next to a popular footpath. I’d want a better source, I’ve double checked pastscape but I can’t find anything. I had heard the legend before, or a slightly different version where the devil collected the stones at deerstones and carried them in his apron to Apronful hill. If Apronful hill is named for the pile of stones it says to me that they’ve been there a long time, so there might be something in it. Also this site is about 3km away from and about 150M below the summit of Pendle. Another issue is how you describe Apronful in relation to Pendle. I was already pondering this issue in relation in Spence moor and the other bumps nearby.--Trappedinburnley (talk) 10:29, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Pendleian

Geopersona, does the ref you supplied cover the prose you added or some of the pre-existing prose also?--Trappedinburnley (talk) 12:40, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Just the material I added really. In fact your query has led me to discover a better reference - this one at http://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/386668.pdf (Waters, C.N.. 2011 Definitions of chronostratigraphic subdivisions : geochronology and event stratigraphy. In: Waters, Colin, (ed.) A revised correlation of Carboniferous rocks in the British Isles. Geological Society of London, 3-10. - see http://nora.nerc.ac.uk/16655/) which gives greater detail about many of the European stage/British sub-stage names and localities (and I'd incorrectly put p43 when it should have been 44) cheers Geopersona (talk) 14:43, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Geopersona, assuming you know about this stuff could a blag a little more from you. As you may have noticed, none of that section was referenced, and I'm hoping to make a bit more sense of it. A quick search has yielded the following, but I know so little about geology. BGS Pendleton Formation BGS Pendle Grit Member Pendleside Limestone Formation BGS Chatburn Limestone Formation Pendleside Sandstone Formation (There are more, is the area geologically significant?) also Light Clough SSSI Little Mearley Clough SSSI, [Walking in the South Pennines PP.11-12 Pendle Grit Sabden Shale--Trappedinburnley (talk) 16:35, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

The BGS links are useful but they do not necessarily mean that the geology of he area is any more significant than anywhere else - though I personally think that it is a geologically interesting area. The derivation for example of a stage/age name from a locality may just mean that important stratigraphic work was carried out there at one time but often these localities are improved upon elsewhere ie replaced as geological survey and knowledge improves over the years. The SSSI citations do however suggest that there is particular importance for some of these sites, certainly Light Clough is. I discover that I myself introduced the geology section back in 2010 - I'll add a ref for the initial material. cheers Geopersona (talk) 18:56, 15 September 2015 (UTC)