Talk:Pythagoras/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Pythagoras in Miletos?

According to The Histories by the Herodotus, book V, chapter 126:

"126. This was the counsel of Hecataios; but Aristagoras was most inclined to go forth to Myrkinos. He therefore entrusted the government of Miletos to Pythagoras, a man of repute among the citizens, and he himself sailed away to Thrace, taking with him every one who desired to go; and he took possession of the region for which he had set out."

Herodotus mentions Pythagoras in his Book IV, chapter 92 as "Pythagoras the son of Mnesarchos". Therefore it looks like Pythagoras lived in Miletos, too. Do you know some other sources confirming/rejecting this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.127.65.104 (talk) 18:40, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

"Roles" of numbers in decad

I've removed this material, since it was unsourced, and the "roles" assigned to the numbers do not, by and large, agree with the epithets that appear in the Iamblichan Theology of Artithmetic (listed by David R. Fideler in Appendix II of Kenneth Sylvan Guthrie, The Pythagorean Sourcebook and Library, ed. David R. Fideler [Grand Rapids: Phanes, 1987]). If a good source for the removed material exists, it can be readded. Deor (talk) 21:17, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Young man line?

According to the articule Pythagoras was a young man when Polycrates took over Samos yet according to the dates Pythagoras would have been about 30. Not really young.

572 B.C minus 538 B.C

~~Anonymous —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.202.20.158 (talk) 21:46, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Deleted content

He was the first man to call himself a philosopher, or lover of wisdom. Many of the accomplishments of Plato, Aristotle and Copernicus were based on the ideas of Pythagoras. Unfortunately, very little is known about Pythagoras because none of his writings have survived. Many of the accomplishments credited to Pythagoras may actually have been accomplishments of his colleagues and successors.

I have deleted this.

The very first claim is specious at best, useless and confusing at worst: without being backed up by a clear primary source, there is no need to make a mention of it. It is also confusing, as we don't know whether a historical or a modern context is being put upon the term philosopher: 'philosophy' in the 6th Century BC referred to an investigator of natural principles (e.g. Thales, Anaximander, Democritus). Ipso facto, the person who wrote this may not be translating with a view to clarity: it would be far more clear for a reader today to be told that "he was the first man to call himself a scientist" or some other term approaching the idea of an investigator into nature. But even beside the contextual problems, why is this even noteworthy in an introductory paragraph? And is it true? Several other pre-Socratics approach calling themselves philosophers, as Heraclitus hints in writing that "men who are lovers of wisdom must be inquirers into many things." The second statement is a spill-over into the first statements mistake. Pythagoras had a strong influence upon Plato's metaphysics as well as later mathematicians and astronomers. That is not to say he made their achievements possible. The last two statements then contravene what the former two sentences have wagered. It is rather a mess.

I will keep this removed from the article until it is brought up to snuff or there is a robust reason for why it should be kept. across the synapse 19:04, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

See my comment immediately above yours. Primary sources for Pythagoras as introducer of philosophos include: Cicero, Tusculan Disputations, 5.3.8-9, Diog. Laert. 1.12, 8.8, Iamblichus VP 58. I've added the citations to the article & done a modest bit of additional pruning to reflect your concerns about some of what is admittedly crap in what you removed. But be more careful & less confident with "specious at best" etc.—the primary source for philosophos was in fact already included in the article's first footnote! Wareh 19:15, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

He was the first man to call himself a philosopher, or lover of wisdom

I saw this scentence and was wondering if we could authoritatively state that, before Pythagoras, nobody in the world called themselves a philosopher or a lover of wisdom. Instead of such a blanket statement, I felt a scentence that mentions this within the context of the reference material or of the region would be right. Sudarshanhs (talk) 17:35, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

He was the first man to call himself a philosopher, or lover of wisdom

Actually, Pythagoras was the first to use the term 'philosophy.' Perhpas this could be used instead? Winderful1 (talk) 15:13, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Sarmoung Brotherhood

n Studies in Comparative Religion (Winter 1974), it is said that according to the Armenian book Merkhavat, the Sarmoung Brotherhood, also referred to as the 'Inner Circle of Humanity', originated in ancient Babylon circa 2500 BC,[2] at around the time the Egyptians built the Great Pyramid of Giza. The Ouspensky Foundation state that the brotherhood was active in the golden Babylonian time of Hammurabi (1728-1686 BC) and is connected with Zoroaster, the teacher of Pythagoras (born c. 580 BC–572 BC, died c. 500 BC–490 BC). According to the Foundation, Pythagoras stayed for twelve years in Babylon.[3]; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmoung_Brotherhood Wblakesx (talk) 23:29, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

First reference to Pythagoras in 2nd cent. CE?

This would explain the lack of reference to a man Pythagoras until 150 AD, given that he would have been of interest to contemporary philosophers (Aristotle referred to the so-called Pythagoreans).

What about Livy's (died 12/17 CE) mention of him? Roberts translation from Wikisource:

His master [Numa's] is given as Pythagoras of Samos, as tradition speaks of no other. But this is erroneous, for it is generally agreed that it was more than a century later, in the reign of Servius Tullius, that Pythagoras gathered round him crowds of eager students, in the most distant part of Italy, in the neighbourhood of Metapontum, Heraclea, and Crotona. (1.18)

Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.186.86.199 (talk) 20:52, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

And what about Heraclitus and Xenophanes--both contemporaries of Pythagoras who mentioned him (and apparently as a man--known to them by reputation if not in person):

[This book] (see p. 48 and following) goes into some depth about the references to Pythagoras in Xenophanes and some other contemporaries and near-contemporaries.

This paper talks about the Heraclitus/Pythagoras material:

“Heraclitus' Critique of Pythagoras' Enquiry in Fragment 129,” Oxford Studies in Ancient Philosophy 35 (2008), 19‑47.

The paragraph on sources is undoubtedly correct that later sources invent the "classical Pythagoras" and attribute to him all sorts of improbable things. But it's goes a little overboard when it suggests there are no references at all to Pythagoras as a person early on--even contemporary.

Bhugh (talk) 06:03, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Quite right. Herodotus mentions Pythagoras (Histories, iv. 95), as does Plato (Republic, 600 AB). I've removed the offending passage. Singinglemon (talk) 21:56, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Clean-up attempt

I made a partial attempt to clean-up this article. I added a section on the (un)reliability of the sources to the top of the article. It's been taken from the beginning of the 1870 Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology article on Pythagoras. I rewrote the Life section; again, just pulling bits and bobs from the DGRBM article as I saw fit. I haven't done much to the rest of the article, although I deleted a couple of outlandish paragraphs and sentences, and I rearranged the article extensively. The section on Pythagoreans has no citations, and is a bit too uncritical for my tastes, but for now, I've moved it further down the article. This had the advantage of bringing the only really-well-written bit of the article upwards - the section on the Pythagorean theorem. Singinglemon (talk) 21:53, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, since it had no references, I decided to rewrite the section on Pythagoreans as well, using some of the material which was there before. It's not great, but I hope the page as a whole, looks more reliable now. Singinglemon (talk) 21:13, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Pythaogras -> Pythagoras

And perhaps Pythaogras should be Pythagoras? (I'd have edited this myself, it the page weren't protected from vandalism...) sunadirE (talk) 01:57, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks - done. --Annielogue (talk) 16:55, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 94.173.119.63, 30 March 2010

{{editsemiprotected}}

The yellow animation demonstrating pythagoras theorem ends with a mistake in the final equation. It should be a plus sign, not a minus sign, between the squares of the shorter sides.

94.173.119.63 (talk) 21:48, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Looks like a plus sign to me. Perhaps you need to adjust your monitor display. Deor (talk) 22:26, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Looks right to me. It is a plus sign, though the Vertical line | is much more bold than the Horizontal line ^_ . Unless I am mistaken.

 Not done since it seems there is no need to. ^Avicenna_sis @ 22:36, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Signs of confusion...

Hi folks,

Furthur to my post about the yellow Pythagoras Theorem animation plus sign, which I now realise must have seemed somewhat ridiculous;

OK, sorry to doubt that you hadn't checked the article for simple errors... I do beg your pardon.

After first checking my own sanity, I have checked using another browser on my computer and indeed the sign is now shown as a strong black plus. It is also showing as a somewhat lighter plus sign when the gif is enlarged using the browser ( Safari 1.3.2 ) I originally viewed the article with. However, for some reason when the animation plays through in the small size at the side of the main article page using this browser version it shows as a minus sign - I kid you not. Changing screen resolution does not help. Perhaps it is something to do with the browser version not displaying the particular font characters correctly at small sizes.

Anyway, thanks for a great animation and your time. I'm just tucking into a large plate of humble pie.

Cheers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.173.119.63 (talk) 23:24, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 69.196.66.216, 28 April 2010

{{editsemiprotected}}

69.196.66.216 (talk) 18:55, 28 April 2010 (UTC) he is a very handsome man who is a eqyptian and was a mathematician. Nothing is known about him

Thanks for your thoughts; however, we only add information from reliable sources.  Chzz  ►  19:12, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

 Not done

Edit request from 81.30.240.226, 17 May 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} there are a few spelling mistakes in the article on Pythagoras, so I feel the need to correct them.

81.30.240.226 (talk) 12:43, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Not done: Welcome and thanks for wanting to improve this article. This template is used to allow a non-autoconfirmed editor to make changes to a semiprotected article using another editor as a proxy. Please specify what you want changed in a 'please change X to Y' degree of detail and someone will make the changes for you, unless there is a problem. Thanks again, Celestra (talk) 13:30, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Pending changes

This article is one of a number (about 100) selected for the early stage of the trial of the Wikipedia:Pending Changes system on the English language Wikipedia. All the articles listed at Wikipedia:Pending changes/Queue are being considered for level 1 pending changes protection.

The following request appears on that page:

Comments on the suitability of theis page for "Penfding changes" would be appreciated.

Please update the Queue page as appropriate.

Note that I am not involved in this project any much more than any other editor, just posting these notes since it is quite a big change, potentially

Regards, Rich Farmbrough, 23:37, 16 June 2010 (UTC).

"strange" results of a Y! search took user to a Wiki archived page, "talk: pythagor......", ad nauseam....

Bold text

...a search for "bogus string theory" offered few results, and too, Wiki ppl might (convivially?) ponder this and related results, etc.

--dave

75.250.7.74 (talk) 06:52, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

In Our Time

The BBC programme In Our Time presented by Melvyn Bragg has an episode which may be about this subject (if not moving this note to the appropriate talk page earns cookies). You can add it to "External links" by pasting * {{In Our Time|Pythagoras|b00p693b}}. Rich Farmbrough, 03:19, 16 September 2010 (UTC).

Edit request from 24.5.240.215, 8 October 2010

{{edit semi-protected}} Please change the Date of Birth and Date of Death from "B.C." (Before Christ) to "B.C.E." (Before Current Era)

That is all.

24.5.240.215 (talk) 01:53, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Declining request per WP:ERA—either abbreviation is acceptable if used consistently throughout an article. Deor (talk) 02:23, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Not done: See above. Thanks, Stickee (talk) 02:35, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Junks, 20 November 2010

{{edit semi-protected}} in the section, Influence on Plato, the link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Western_Philosophy should point here instead: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_History_of_Western_Philosophy

Junks (talk) 15:43, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Done   — Jeff G.  ツ 16:17, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 82.22.255.145, 4 December 2010

{{edit semi-protected}} Hi, I'm female,and if I wanted to read up about a Mathematician, Pythagoras, I don't see why I have to be told women (50% of the population) are common property. You state many women were part of the Pythagoras group, but you imply they were there for non-academic reasons, which you have no right to do. The quotes are unrelated (you state different sources) put together to make (until you come up with evidence) an inaccurate statement.

Please change 'The claim that they put all their property into a common stock is perhaps only a later inference from certain Pythagorean maxims and practices.[55] On the other hand, it seems certain that there were many women among the adherents of Pythagoras.[56]' to 'The claim that they put all their property into a common stock is perhaps only a later inference from certain Pythagorean maxims and practices.[55] It seems certain that there were many women among the adherents of Pythagoras.[56]

82.22.255.145 (talk) 18:58, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for that. I've made an edit which I hope removes any possible confusion. --Annielogue (talk) 22:14, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Weasel Language / Edit Request

"...however some have questioned the scope of his contributions to mathematics and natural philosophy." This is vague, baseless, and obviously weasel language.72.200.108.251 (talk) 01:57, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

True. WP:SOFIXIT. Dicklyon (talk) 04:25, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

(I agree...)

(1) Please improve the 2nd paragraph to the parent article (i.e. the second lead paragraph) For starters, Please make the following changes:(a) Move the key sentence "It was said that he was the first man to call himself a philosopher, or lover of wisdom,[refferance 4] and Pythagorean ideas exercised a marked influence on Plato, and through him, all of Western philosophy." to the beginning (head) of the paragraph - i.e place it 2nd to the indroductory sentence: "Pythagoras made influential contributions..." (b) Improve the lengthy sentence: ("However,..."; currently the 3rd sentence in the paragraph) change to "However, because legend and obfuscation so cloud his work (even more than other pre-Socratic philosophers) many question the authenticity of his ascribed contributions." [the words 'to mathematics and natural philosophy' are redundant and slow the pace of the article]...

(2) Please remove the word 'Allegedly' (under the 'Influence On Plato' section; 1st paragraph) and place the introductory remark "Tradition has it,..." at the beginning of the first sentence.

(Thanks; that's all; Keep up the good work.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Seipjere (talk • contribs) 17:22, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 12 January 2012

i want to write the origination of phytagoras theorem that how dd it come into existence and how did he found that This is the origination:- One day phythagoras was drawing the same with some stick,he found that if a square is drawn on each side of 3-4-5 triangle,the area of the 2 small squares added together equals to the area of larger square He examined it with other right angle triangle and it true with them too.6²+8²=10² the set of 3 numbers viz (3,4,5) (6,8,10)(9,12,15)came to be know as phytagoras triplets

Vaibhavmav (talk) 17:50, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Tetrachtys -> Tetractys

Perhaps Tetrachtys should be Tetractys? Bayle Shanks (talk) 09:05, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Nice catch. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.49.8.244 (talk) 18:24, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

I noticed that there is no image of the Tetractys on this page, and I think it would help if there were an illustration, since it's described but it's difficult to visualize. I can't add one myself because I don't have a registered account and the page is semi-protected, but here is the link to the one in the commons, so someone else could add it: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/Tetractys.svg/200px-Tetractys.svg.png — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.81.159.202 (talk) 21:30, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

....

The Right Angle Triangle Theorem is not his fuckin fathers property.

It is a classic geometrical relationship known to many cultures.

Which is why that fact is mentioned right there in the article. Please sign your contributions to talk pages, and try not to use them as a forum. Nczempin (talk) 15:14, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

According to legend, the way Pythagoras discovered that musical notes could be translated into mathematical equations

I heard on a radio 4 program, or something on the BBC I think, that he noticed it in grass / reeds, as they were waving in the wind like slowed down strings on instruments - and believed the patterns (of intervals, nodes, harmonics and so on) to be universal, music essentially.

I would be interested to chat with someone who understands superstring theory to a higher level than myself to know if the theory also allows for that in the model. If it does, he may have been laughably close to what's on the way, over two millenia ago (oldest scientific prediction that was correct?). :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.166.134.7 (talk) 08:27, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

I have read that the musical discoveries

Error in external link

about fragments, from the university of hanover. Corrected link must be: http://history.hanover.edu/texts/presoc/pythagor.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.134.244.241 (talk) 20:26, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

 Done. Deor (talk) 22:41, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

King Arthur

Read the article on King Arthur. Nowhere is the Arthurian legend presented as fact. The legend was created in romances over half a millenium after he was said to have lived. Those writing it knew it so, even if they prefaced it with "the following is based on real events from real history", Dan Brown stylee. Of course, there may have been a dude called Arthur, and he may have been a King, but if so, the Arthurian legend is no more likely to contain correct biographical facts about historical Arthur than a treatise on the tomato. If there are any, it is coincidence, not good history.

And yet the biographical facts in this article on Pythagoras are presented with authority. 'Pythagoras lived at 34 Greek Street' , 'Pythagoras liked to cut his sandwiches into triangles', 'Pythagoras invented playing cards'. Nobody knows! The legend of the dude Pythagoras was created by romantics 500 years later. These guys knew they were doing so. The story of the bean eating hippy Pythagoras is certainly a popular one to repeat, but not a real history. If there was a dude Pythagoras in the Pythagoreans , you are about as likely to find correct biographical facts about him in the article King Arthur than in this one.

Most of this article should be moved to the Pythagoreans, which also needs some scepticism. The bean-eating hippy legend can be repeated, but not presented as truth. Wikipedia, writing something down does not make it true. —Preceding unsigned comment addedby Matt me (talk • contribs) 10:08, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Wrong. First, Pythagoras, his students, and the Pythagorans were very secretive because they believed their knowledge was not meant for the uninitiated and profane. Unlocking his and their history is very different than the development of the Arthurian legend. Second, "Philolaus, a not-so-secretive Pythagorean, wrote a book 50-75 years after Pythagoras death" - p.4, The Music of Pythagoras by Kitty Ferguson (Walker 2008). Third, There Are No Coincidences. Fourth, if you or anyone is going to criticize certain facts presented in this or any Wikipedia article, then refer to the exact statements, not your silly made-up ones, i.e. "Pythagoras lived at 34 Greek Street". And to refer to Pythagoras as a "hippy" is like referring to Jesus as a hippy; it's ignorant and very disrespectful of one of history's greatest and most influencial minds. - Brad Watson, Miami (talk) 13:52, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

'Pythagorean motto': "God is ever a geometer"

In researching the history of Greek gematria - the alphanumeric quality of a language - we are pointed to Pythagoras and the Pythagoreans. There is an ancient Greek motto: "God is ever a geometer" (ἀεὶ ὁ Θεὸς ὁ μέγας γεωμετρεῖ), whereas, counting the letters of the words (3,1,4,1,5,9) reveals the first six digits of pi (3.14159). This confirms that 'Step 1' of Greek gematria is simply counting the number of letters in a word/name and that 'Step 2' is the gematric sum of a word/name. There's a question of whether "God is ever a geometer" is rightfully accredited to Pythagoras, the Pythagoreans, or to Plato? - Brad Watson, Miami, FL 65.34.180.54 (talk) 12:20, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Anyone? - Brad Watson, Miami (talk) 13:57, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

"Everything is number" - Pythagoras

"Everything is number" is attributed to Phythagoras <ref]citation needed</ref]. Anybody got a good source for that? I'm working on it. - Brad Watson, Miami (talk) 14:04, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

{{Citation needed}} is what you need, not a reference saying citation needed. Make sure the source meets WP:RS. Ian.thomson (talk) 14:29, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Pythagorean Hammers

I was having a difficult time finding anywhere on the internet the truth about the Pythagorean hammers; the story is clearly mythical, but everyone treats it as scientific truth (probably because the truth of the perfect proportions can be so easily demonstrated with strings that most people do not question whether the same would be true for hammers, or not). Anyway, fixed now, and I gave two sources. Terez27 (talk) 16:53, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

"This legend has since proven to be false by virtue of the fact that these ratios are only relevant to string length (such as the string of a monochord), and not to hammer weight.[48][49] However, it may be that Pythagoras was indeed responsible for discovering these properties of string length."

The ratios are not "only relevant to string length", but to vibrating air columns, such as in wind and brass instruments, and vibrating lengths of wood or metal, such as in xylophones, marimbas, vibraphones, accordions and harmonicas. Wind instruments have holes with or without keys to shorten and lengthen the air column to produce different pitches. Brass instruments often use valves to control the length of tube used to create an air column, and hence the basic pitch produced. Trombones vary the air column length with a telescopic slide - the more the slide is pulled out, the longer the column and thus the lower-pitched the basic note. By blowing into different holes in a harmonica, different lengths of metal (reeds) are vibrated to create different pitches. Accordions use bellows to vibrate the reeds, which are selected by keys or buttons. The longer the key on a xylophone, the lower-pitched the note it will produce when struck.

A common way to demonstrate the principle is to strike identical bottles containing different amounts of water; those with more water - and hence shorter air columns - will produce higher-pitched notes. The principle can also be readily seen in acoustic church organs, where the shorter the pipe, the higher the pitch it produces. JRalphS (talk) 15:03, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Pythagoras was phoenician, not greek!

he was not a greek. hes father is from tyre , a phoenician mercant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.80.10.252 (talk) 14:31, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Your source? BlackPearl14^{[talkies!•contribs!]} 01:17, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

HIS FATHER MNESARHUS IS A CLASSICAL GREEK NAME —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.103.222.135 (talk) 20:15, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

no historic record writes his father was a phoenician.he was a agreek merchant in phoenicia.his name shows that —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.103.222.135 (talk) 20:23, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Very amusing notion, but Tyre was a Greek city on more than one occasion through time and was even shared by both "Greek" (actually several Hellenic peoples {plural}) and the Phoenicians who no longer viewed themselves as "upper Canaanites" (Tyre is not in upper Canaan). In fact the Phoenician queen hated Tyre so much (due to neighboring tribes) that they left and spread to new colonies. The Hellenic civilizations that traded with the Phoenicians were closely related, they were friendly over a long period of time and then it is well documented that they heavily intermarried. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.252.4.166 (talk) 04:02, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

There is of course no primary source for anything concerning Pythagoras but according to neo-Platonist Iamblichus of Chalcis not only was Pythagoras's father Phoenician but he was born in Sidon, not Samos. His father was, according to legend, made an honorary Samian when he brought a shipload of wheat to the island during a famine. Pythagoras traveled widely with his father, became interested in mathematics after meeting Thales of Miletos (a short hop away) and his pupil Anaximander, who advised him to further his learning in Egypt, of which the tyrant of Samos was an ally, where he managed to join a priesthood. When Cambyses II, successor of Cyrus, invaded Egypt, Pythagoras was taken prisoner to Babylon, where he continued his education. The Babylonians had discovered Phythagoras' theorem 1000 years before him but he apparently was able to prove it. Pythagoras probably enjoyed the good favors of his captors thanks to his fathers' being a Phoenician, since Phoenicia was an ally of Persia. When Darius captured Samos, Pythagoras returned there. However his elitist views, appreciated by former tyrant Polycrates, were rejected by the Samians and he was forced into exile. In conclusion, it was the wealth and connections of his Phoenician father, as well as the alliance of the local tyrant with Egypt, that made it possible for Pythagoras to accumulate and process all the mathematical knowledge of Egypt and Babylon. Just as up-and-coming young men in England would go on the "grand tour" of Europe to compensate for the deficiency in culture and learning in their own country, Pythagoras went on a grand tour of the centers of culture an civilization of the Iron Age and brought some of it back home. To pretend that it was the famine-racked backwater that was Samos in the 6th c. BC that miraculously produced this Da Vinci-like genius is simply ridiculous, unfortunately it is also conventional wisdom. Agitpapa (talk) 08:50, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Just a postscriptum: The name of Samos is Phoenician, meaning "rise by the sea." It stands to reason that the island was colonized by the Phoenicians after the Greek dark ages, when Greeks even forgot how to read and write (and learned it all over again from the Phoenicians). Agitpapa (talk) 10:32, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 19 July 2013

well, since I can't edit it, please somebody fix it.

"... that he was seen in different places at once and the same time "

Maybe I find others, but I can't keep doing this every time. Cheers... Jorge (Engineer - PhD - CSM 1996) Jsampaio (talk) 01:06, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Fixed. A few more edits and you can do it yourself. Rivertorch (talk) 04:31, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Pythagoras' travels to India, Babylon, etc.

The old version of the page alleged that Diogenes mentions Pythagoras' travel to India, among other places. I have removed this, as such a mention (unless I have missed something!) does not appear in Diogenes, nor does it appear in Porphyry, nor does it appear in any other historian of antiquity. This entire idea seems to be based on the notion that Pythagoras must have gotten the idea for transmigration from somewhere, presumably India, but as far as I know no evidence directly supports this. Skadefryd (talk) 17:43, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Diogenes Laërtius does say "he also journeyed among the Chaldaeans and Magi" -- so I'll add that quote to the page, since it at least implies journeys to places other than Egypt. As for the India claim, the only ancient source I can find is Apuleius, Florida, 15 [1], who talks about Pythagoras' visits to "the Brahmins, a race of wise men who live in India." Apuleius states that "it was from the Brahmins that he derived the greater part of his philosophy," and then goes on to give a list of doctrines, including of course the transmigration of souls. This is all pretty unlikely of course, but I guess there were some people in later antiquity ready to make the claim. Pasicles (talk) 22:57, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 December 2013

Please add a reference; Strohmeier, John & Peter Westbrook "Divine Harmony: The Life and Teachings of Pythagoras" (Harmonia Books, 2012)

Please add link to website: www.pythagoras-divineharmony.com

Ganved (talk) 11:39, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Not done: Thanks, but the "References" section is only for the references that have actually been used in creating the article; we don't add them post-hoc to an already well referenced article, except as inline citations to support particular points. I'm afraid the link you've provided is inappropriate per WP:LINKSTOAVOID point 5, web pages that exist mainly to sell a product. Adrian J. Hunter^{(talk•contribs)} 12:34, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Shape of the earth

Earth revolves around SUN, not SON (as in Jan 10, 2014 web page). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.1.62.206 (talk) 21:38, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Done   — --Chewings72 (talk) 03:58, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

I though Pythagoras was one of the most prominent early proponents of the Spherical Earth concept. If so, maybe we should mention that in the article about him. --Uncle Ed (talk) 19:05, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

There are almost no reliable facts known about what Pythagoras thought, and that's especially the case for the mathematical and scientific doctrines which were later fostered upon him. I see the Wikipedia page on the Spherical Earth does credit him with this. The idea apparently comes from Diogenes Laertius, viii. 48:

He [Pythagoras] was the first to call the heaven the universe and the earth spherical, though Theophrastus says it was Parmenides, and Zeno that it was Hesiod.

James Evans (The History and Practice of Ancient Astronomy, page 47) says about this passage: "the statements by later Greek writers merely reflect the propensity for attributing every discovery to one or another of their ancient wise men." Charles H. Kahn, (Pythagoras and the Pythagoreans: a brief history, page 53) just says that "the spherical earth is a distinctive innnovation of the Western [i.e. Magna Graecia ] cosmological tradition in Parmenides and Empedocles, whereas the Ionian tradition preserves the flat earth." Both Evans and Kahn agree that the idea may have originated in the Pythagorean school, but nothing more. We can add this to the page if you like, but with the health-warnings too. Singinglemon (talk) 15:48, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Well I've not updated this page, but I've updated the page on the Spherical Earth to indicate the doubts about ascribing the idea to Pythagoras. Singinglemon (talk) 19:45, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, if Pythagoras is taking undue credit, let's go back to what the sources say. It sounds like his 'school' adopted someone else's good idea. --Uncle Ed (talk) 02:24, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

I edited the following... Many attribute Pythagoras with discovering the Spherical Earth theory <ref]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44846249/</ref]. Others believe that the accomplishments credited to Pythagoras may actually have been accomplishments of his colleagues and successors. - Brad Watson, Miami (talk) 14:01, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 May 2014

Please add under "Sources"/"Modern secondary sources":

• Christoph Riedweg: *Pythagoras. His Life, Teaching, and Influence, Ithaca 2008 (revised Paperback of the first edition 2005, which contained a series of flaws, s. Corrigenda (PDF-Datei; 204 kB); german original Pythagoras: Leben – Lehre – Nachwirkung. Eine Einführung, München 2007 (second revised edition; first edition 2002); ital. Pitagora. Vita, dottrina e influenza. Presentazione, traduzione e apparati a cura di Maria Luisa Gatti, Milano 2007)

EurytosE (talk) 17:48, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Not done: It isn't clear that adding this improves the article. You should generate a consensus here on the talk page around whether that is the case before adding this. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 21:27, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Source correction

In Section 6 Pythagoreans it reads "Both Plato and Isocrates affirm that, above all else, Pythagoras was famous for leaving behind him a way of life.[59]" Footnote 59 reads: "Plato, Republic, 600a, Isocrates, Busiris, 28" However I am studying Plato's Republic and decided to skip ahead to read 600a. Pythagorus is not mentioned until 600b. This is according the G.M.A. Grube translation.

I do not know if this is a small oversight of this page's editors or a difference in the numbering system of different translations but thought I'd bring it up since I saw it.

Michael Gardner 06/15/2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.247.93.178 (talk) 02:40, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Pythagoras ?

What's the English pronunciation of Pythagoras? (for those that haven't grown up in English) Any kind of IPA key seems to be missing. --Zom-B (talk) 05:09, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

More than one is used, anyway. This is common with spelling pronunciations of ancient or foreign words. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DoricIonic (talk • contribs) 13:14, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Sumerian's Discovery of a^2+b^2=c^2?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/23/science/23babylon.html?_r=1&src=me&ref=homepage —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.21.108.30 (talk) 00:54, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

The Babylonians' familiarity with the concept of Pythagorean triples (and speculation about whether they had a proof of the theorem) is already mentioned and sourced in the Pythagorean theorem section of this article and in the "History" section of the Pythagorean theorem article, where an image of the same cuneiform tablet pictured in the NYT article appears. What is your question or suggestion? Deor (talk) 01:22, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

97.21.108.30 seems to have confused Sumerian and Babylonian, anyway. The two are completely different. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DoricIonic (talk • contribs) 13:17, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Some thoughts

The belief in metempsychosis, the various taboos like to smooth out the impression of your body upon your bedsheets (for fear of others casting spells), and a kind of mathematical reverence are the usual three speculative matters of Pythagoras, rather than just the Pythagoreans, stated with confidence. The article mentions Pythagoras could have possibility had no particular mathematical ability at all, but only gives whole books as sources and does not elaborate on this. It should. A neat idea if I can assume the reasoning is plausible. Cushman says the Pythagoreans thought the universe made of limited numbers (in extension, I believe, such as the limited extension in space of the pebbles in one's pebble arithmetic) and unlimited space, and associate this dualism with the odd/even numbers, male/female natures, etc which one finds in Philolaus and other Pythagoreans. Along with the union of opposites - harmony - in Pythagoras's philosophy this makes it have an affinity with Anaximander. The argument for the roundness of the Earth was supposedly hilariously bad: "Perfect things are round. The Earth is perfect. Ergo, the Earth is round." Cake (talk) 12:54, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

When He Died

I'm pretty sure it is well known that Pythagoras died on Wednesday. Does anyone want to add this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.215.250.208 (talk) 02:39, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Pythagorean Theorem

It is obvious that the Babylonians knew the theorem a2+b2=c2, but it is very doubtful if they gave a proof of it. They used tables of square roots. In equations x+y=a , xy=P, they use the type x=1/2a+ sqroot((a/2)2-P), y=1/2a-sqroot((a/2)2-P), but the type is not written. It seems that for them the problem was algebraic and not geometric. Greek mathematics began with geometry and remained faithful to it. It seems that Thales marked the special character of Greek studies, when he proved that a circle is bisected by its diameter. The construction of the first temples (7th-6th century BC), required some simple mathematical formulas in order to keep the original forms, therefore they sought in mathematics permanent principles. The assertion "Things are numbers" is attributed to Pythagoras. We don't know if there was a far-East influence, but it was the basis of modern physics.Jestmoon(talk) 21:37, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 January 2015

p789. Lissy16 (talk) 03:55, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format.  ^B E _C K ^Y _S A ^{Y L} E _S  04:24, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

The "Pythagorean Life"

I think a new section ought to be added outlining the main tenets of the life Pythagoras taught. Beyond his philosophic/mathematic teachings, the way of life he prescribed stands as his most singularly important offering. It would be good to outline these tenets and then link to examples of those who followed them, like, for instance, Apollonius of Tyana and some of the later Platonists (neoplatonists). Most modern people are unaware that Pythagoras taught such a specific way of life. For instance, there is this gem from Iamblichus's "Life of Pythagoras":

"he [Pythagoras] forbade the most contemplative of philosophers, and who have arrived at the summit of philosophic attainments, the use of superfluous and unjust food, and ordered them never to eat any thing animated, nor in short, to drink wine, nor to sacrifice animals to the Gods, nor by any means to injure animals, but to preserve most solicitously justice towards them. And he himself lived after this manner, abstaining from animal food, and adoring altars undefiled with blood. He was likewise careful in preventing others from destroying animals that are of a kindred nature with us, and rather corrected and instructed savage animals through words and deeds, than injured them through punishment. And farther still, he also enjoined those politicians that were legislators to abstain from animals. For as they wished to act in the highest degree justly, it is certainly necessary that they should not injure any kindred animal. Since, how could they persuade others to act justly, if they themselves were detected in indulging an insatiable avidity by partaking of animals that are allied to us? For through the communion of life and the same elements, and the mixture subsisting from these, they are as it were conjoined to us by a fraternal alliance."—Iamblichus, on the Life of Pythagoras (trans. Thomas Taylor)

This same approach is outlined in the "Life of Apollonius" (perhaps the most ardent later Pythagorean), and then later in Porphry's "Abstinence from Animal Foods", demonstrating that this (among other) aspects of the "Pythagorean Life" were considered centrally important by his followers.

Other aspects of the life he taught are outlined in Iamblichus's biography, and in other sources, as well (the vow of silence being another important one), and these can likewise be noted to have continued to influence the followers of Pythagoras down through the centuries. At present, this wiki entry remains quite incomplete without fully addressing this topic.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.85.208.12 (talk) 20:45, 1 April 2015 (UTC) 

The section "Pythagoreans" in the article covers a good deal of this material. (You may also want to take a look at the article Neopythagoreanism.) If there's a specific change or addition you want to be made, please post a new edit request below. These edit requests work best when they're requests for limited and clearly defined changes in the article (with sources). Deor (talk) 22:24, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

School details

Below a part moved from article, looks like OR/SYN, at least in parts. prokaryotes (talk) 02:23, 31 May 2015 (UTC) Candidates had to pass through a period of probation, in which their powers of maintaining silence (echemythia, Porphyry stated that this silence was "of no ordinary kind") were especially tested, as well as their general temper, disposition, and mental capacity. There were also gradations among the members themselves. It was an old Pythagorean maxim, that every thing was not to be told to every body. Thus the Pythagoreans were divided into an inner circle called the mathematikoi ("learners") and an outer circle called the akousmatikoi ("listeners"). Iamblichus describes them in terms of esoterikoi and exoterikoi (or alternatively Pythagoreioi and Pythagoristai), according to the degree of intimacy which they enjoyed with Pythagoras. Porphyry wrote "the mathematikoi learned the more detailed and exactly elaborated version of this knowledge, the akousmatikoi (were) those who had heard only the summary headings of his (Pythagoras's) writings, without the more exact exposition".

Semi-protected edit request on 1 July 2015

In the first paragraph, shouldn't the phrase "520 AD returned to Samos" read instead "520 BCE returned to Samos" . . . otherwise, it implies Pythagoras lived an incredibly long time. Scarabrae (talk) 02:24, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Done https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pythagoras&type=revision&diff=669426087&oldid=668881303 Cannolis (talk) 09:24, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 September 2015

Born in Tyre, not the other place 173.74.122.9 (talk) 03:31, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

 Not done as you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request - as stated in the section #Pythagoras was phoenician, not greek! above "There is of course no primary source for anything concerning Pythagoras" - so you can't cite any such sources. However, "Pythagoras of Samos" or "Pythagoras the Samian" probably came from Samos - Arjayay (talk) 09:08, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 November 2015

Pythagoras was the first person known to have taught the earth was spherical, with antipodes and that it revolved around the sun. Pythagoras was also said to have spread the seeds of political liberty to Crotona, Sybaris, Meapontum, Rhegium, Sicily, Tauromenium, Catana, Agrigentum and Himera.[93]

Change the content to: Pythagoras was also said to have spread the seeds of political liberty to Crotona, Sybaris, Meapontum, Rhegium, Sicily, Tauromenium, Catana, Agrigentum and Himera.[93]

Check references

Oct77 (talk) 22:15, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Not done: The content you are asking to remove is in the provided source on page 49. -- ferret (talk) 19:59, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 January 2016

Please add to "Modern secondary sources" the following book: "Riedweg, Christoph, Pythagoras. His Life, Teaching, and Influence. Translated by Steven Rendall, Ithaca: Cornell University Press, revised Paperback-Edition: 2008" Source: http://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/?GCOI=80140100204060 Eurytos~dewiki (talk) 15:31, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

Not sure what the inclusion criteria is, are there any extensive reviews maybe? Anyway i checked the page, there are 5 references to Riedweg, including above book, thus adding yet another reference seems unnecessary. prokaryotes (talk) 19:37, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

Not done: as explained by prokaryotes --allthefoxes ^(Talk) 17:04, 14 January 2016 (UTC)