Talk:Pythagoras/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Tennant 22

Well, tennant 22 of the Pythagorean Maxims (as listed in the Phanes Press "Pythagorean Sourcebook and Library") is: "Abstain from eatting animals." So, that's pretty clear.

The biography recorded by Diogenes Laertius also makes it clear in section 12 that this follows as part of the Pythagorean beliefs about universal friendship and equality. It is also written there that there is some confusion surrounding a diet book written by Pythagoras encouraging athletes to train while eatting meat instead of the usual athletic diet of dried figs and cheese. This, however, was not

written by Pythagoras of Samos, but by a different Pythagoras.  This might be the source of your confusion.  The Pythagoras of Samos was, indeed a very strict vegetarian, and, in fact, encouraged eatting of any "animal foods" in moderation.  I hope that helps clear up some of the confusion.

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dude, i think he was a [vegetarian]

[calling him a vegetarian was an attempt to make him sound like a nut; avoiding meat was considered to be a taboo; it had something to do with canibalism and equating human/animal life as being equal. This is one of the biggest myths that's ever been perpetuated...]

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I don't get what the hell you are talking about... AllyMcD 04:06, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Moved here so that somebody can figure out how to salvage... Stan 03:31, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)

"Pythagoras proved that music (and everything else) had very much to do with mathematical laws of proportion.

He used his rational knowledge to prove that harmonious melodies are related to mathematical ratios: He discovered that if you pluck two strings which have the same tension, and then divide one of them exactly in half, the pitch of the shorter string is exactly one octave higher than the longer one. "

Pythagoras’s followers discovered that different musical modes have different effects on the person who hears them. They claim that Pythagoras once cured a young man by prescribing a certain melody. Still today there are clinics which use therapy accompanied by music.

But sound waves can have a very negative effect on peoples subconscious as Patrick Flanagan, a modern controversial thinker, states. The human ear can only hear certain frequencies but our subconscious takes in other levels of sound we cannot make out. The same way we can learn while asleep by playing a tape or something.

He claims that this discovery is being used very frequently today to subliminally control peoples mind. He claims that a lot of stores like Wal-Mart use it to persuade people to buy products or not to steal. It is most often played with the background music which itself is calm and relaxing. Patrick states that it is used everywhere, from power poles to cell phone antennas. It can make people tired, lazy or the opposite, angry and excited."

´The first part i utterly confused and hard to follow, and that last part sounds more like a conspiracy theory. I will see if I can write up something serious on musical scales instead... Nixdorf

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there's something wrong with the greek link to Pythagoras ( Πυθαγόρας ) and i can't seem to fix it. =/

Should be fixed...it actually just pointed to a non-existant article, since the article on el: is at Pythagoras of Samos (or Pythagoras the Samian I guess, Πυθαγόρας ο Σάμιος). Adam Bishop 02:00, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

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On anachronistic links: IMHO the =External Links= section should be open to views that wouldn't be appropriate in the article - otherwise they risk spilling over into the text, especially in a subject like "Pythagoras" that tends to attract cranks. I say we do our best to note the perspective they come from and leave them in even if they're beyond the pale of good scholarship. Getting into an edit war over it isn't worth our time. Bacchiad 21:35, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

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Shouldn't there be a disambig article somewhere? There are at least 3 Pythagoras: this one, the crater on the moon, and the Greek sculptor. --Yurik 19:13, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

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I'd heard, a while ago, that it's speculated that Pythagoras stole some of his works from his students or some others. Anyone got a source for this? I'd like to see it added to the article, whether it's true or false. Nathyn 06:47, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

I think it's not so much stole as much as the group attributing all of their discoveries to their leader, Pythagoras. Either way, it's an interesting point for investigation. JYolkowski // talk 18:02, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

It is speculated/believed by sone/many historians that Pythagoras never existed (but was rather a mythical father-figure for the Pythagoreans). Certainly the fact that all the "primary sources" listed wrote more than five centuries after his alleged dates is a bad sign. Shouldn't this be mentioned somewhere? - Algebraist 23:17, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

That isn't true at all. Classical scholarship dismisses such speculation. Since the late nineteenth century no serious historian has ever doubted the historicity of Pythagoras. Of course many stories about him are suspect, or obvious fiction, and generations of scholars have made enormous efforts to separate legend and fact, but there is no doubt whatsoever among scholars that he is historical. As for the primary sources, there are explicit statements by Heraclitus, who was a contemporary (and strong critic) of Pythagoras. Those statements are unanimously accepted as authentic by classical scholars, and they are first-class evidence. 85.212.189.181 13:09, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Algebraist, I think you misunderstood the statement that the Pythagorean Theorem wasn't attributed to Pythagoras for five centuries. Even though the Theorem wasn't attributed to him, lots of other things were. As well doubt the existance of Socrates. Rick Norwood 00:37, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

BC vs. BCE

I prefer BC, just because that is what I grew up with. But the official Wiki style sheet requires BCE (B.C.E.???). Comments? Rick Norwood 19:27, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Actually, the MoS doesn't require BCE. According to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers), "Both the BCE/CE era names and the BC/AD era names are acceptable, but be consistent within an article.". Since the article is already written using BC, it probably makes the most sense to leave it as it is. JYolkowski // talk 20:34, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Surname

Hi,

Is his last name (surname) not known?

Thanks, 17:38, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

The concept of a surname had not yet been invented. Two people with the same name were identified by their birthplace, thus Plato of Athens and Plato of Smyrna. Rick Norwood 18:14, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

I know the first surnames were your occupation (such as hunter, etc) but when was that? I thought Pythagoras was his last name, and his first name was just like his birthdate, lost track of?? AllyMcD 03:56, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Hypocrite vs. Hippocratic Oath

I find it odd that the Hippocratic Oath of the Pythagorean Brotherhood states, "First do no harm"; when Pythagoras himself drowned Hippasus after not wanting to believe that Hippasus's discovery of the square root of 2 is irrational. Even though it was common back then to give credit to a famous teacher of the discoveries of his students, In my opinion, I find his action of murder being hypocritical of his hippocratic oath.

Kelly C. Grube 10/20/05

This story is almost certainly a myth. Rick Norwood 19:20, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

That incident happened long after Pythagoras was dead (if he even existed) and the real MYTH (important keyword there) states it was his followers. Professor Patrick Norton, University of West Ireland 11:09, 6 February 2006.

the earth a globe

I'd like to see a reference for the claim that Pythagoras was the first person to discover that the earth is a globe. Rick Norwood 19:20, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Really? I though that Columbus (or is it Columbi?)guy discovered the Earth is a globe? 13:38 4 March 2006

http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/biography/Pythagoras.html It sites three sources, I'll leave it to you to dig through those three to find the exact reference. Also, Eratosthenes is generally credited with being the first to calculate the circumference of the earth (276BC-194BC), so I think its fair to say there were a number of people to believe the Earth was a globe. Columbus neither proved, nor discovered it, and actually believe it to be 1/3 its current size. The first person to circumnavigate the Earth generally goes to Ferdinand Magellan who never did it in a single trip, but did visit the Philippines coming from both directions. I suppose you could say he was the first person to prove that the earth was round.

Scientific contributions

The section on Scientific contributions contains a number of doubtful claims. For example, if the Egyptians were more advanced mathematically than the Greeks of the 6th century BCE, none of that writing survives. There is much more written Mesopotamean mathematics than there is Egyptian. The only Egyptian reference to the Pythagorean theorem is a single mathematical problem the answer to which is a 3, 4, 5 triangle. Also, the references to mathematics in China is controversial -- usually dated from the Han dynasty but claimed by some to be much older. This controversy is interesting, but does not belong here.

With some trepedation, I am going to attempt a rewrite, attempting to focus on what is known about the Pytahgoreans rather than on claims of prior knowledge of the theorem by other cultures, which is discussed extensively in the article Pythagorean theorem. Rick Norwood 01:12, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Vegetarian

The fact he's considered one of the world's first famous vegetarians, should probably get at least a mention in the article Sherurcij 12:33, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually he was anti-vegetarian; he considered the avoidance of meat to be a taboo. The guy probably misunderstood. I don't know why people are still getting this wrong. I've come across this on numerous sources; it's not like it's new info. I remember doing a paper on this about 10 years ago in HS and even my teacher got it wrong until I pointed the wording out to her. The "Pythagoreans" was a reference to people who attended the school Pythagoras had, dealing with philosophy and religion and such. He got a lot of sh*t, because a lot of the leaders didn't have any idea what he was talking about and he was very selective (you had to already "get it," in other words), so there was obviously a lot of propaganda put out to make him into some sort of a cult leader (Rome and Brittain??); there's also significant evidence he knew magi and druids at some point of his life.. -Anonymous

>Anonymous, can you give some references to this? I'm inclined to believe you, I should say. This I do because Milo (the wrestler), one of the most famous first-generation Pythagoreans, was famous for eating enourmous quantities of meat. -August

Playing with the dates.

If no-one is sure of Pythagoras's (?) birthdate & deathdate, isn't there a grave stone some one can go and check somewhere? On another subject though, it sounds like Pythagoras was a bit of a madman to me. All those things this website says about those people who lived at his school... That really doesn't sound at all normal if you ask me. Does anyone know if he had mental issues? -- 4 March 2006

People are having some fun playing with the dates. The fact is that very little is known with any certainty about Pythagoras, and his dates are a matter of which source you read. Also, there are people who amuse themselves by changing BCE to BC and other people who amuse themselves changing BC back to BCE. Like Earth itself, this is mostly harmless. Rick Norwood 13:13, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't know (or, frankly, care) exactly when Pythagoras was born and when he died, or which dates the article should give. I do think it's important that if the dates given in the first line are changed, the categories should also be changed to reflect this.

If we can't state dates with any certainty, this should also be reflected in the first line. TheMadBaron 13:33, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Rick Norwood 13:37, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm confused as to what BC is, and what BCE is? What's the difference? I heard somewhere it was the same timezone, they were just changing it because now it's even longer ago than it was afew years ago....? - 13:43, 4 March 2006220.239.2.137 03:44, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

B.C.E. is the secular-humanist way of referring to B.C. The usage of Before Christ and Anno Domine is Christian, and so B.C.E. and C.E. are used as substitutes. B.C.E. means "Before Common Era" and C.E. means "Common Era". La Pizza11 02:54, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Pythagoreanims

I've fixed some of the mistakes in the recent large addition on Pythagoreanism. I found it interesting reading, but wonder whether a lot of it does not belong in the article Pythagoreanism rather than here. Rick Norwood 21:26, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Dates

I know that Pythagoras lived from 582 BC to 507 BC.It said so in Webster's dictionary.

I trust you are being facetious but just in case you are not -- Pythagoras lived so long ago that the exact dates of his birth and death are uncertain, as are many facts about his life. Rick Norwood 00:13, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

It's confusing when you say he practiced pythagoreanism when he invented it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.25.49.67 (talk) 01:29, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Places

Does anyone here know WHERE Pythagoras died? - AllyMcD 04:04, 4 March 2006 (UTC) Does anyone know when he was born?

doubtful claims

I've removed some doubtful claims from the article. I followed the link that was given in support of these claims, and found material that is not NPOV, of which the following sentence is an example, "The great and compassionate heart of Pythagoras ached with helpless pity for those weak souls who had strayed from the Path." Rick Norwood 19:46, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Image

What about an image of Pythagoras?-User:Agoodperson

Of course, nobody knows what Pythagoras looked like, but we already have two images. I've moved one higher up in the article. I wouldn't mind seeing another image in the "scientific" section -- maybe something illustrating the Music of the Spheres. Rick Norwood 13:42, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Can't blow bubbles in a pond?

I'm going to delete this unless someone can confirm it. Rick Norwood 22:11, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Croton Crotona

Greek names are inflected, that is, the spelling changes depending on where the name appears in a sentence. The most famous example of this is the Greek god Deus, whose name becomes Zeus in the (I think) objective case. When transliterated into English, various endings have become standard, for example, Mark rather than Marcus. Other names, such as Hero/Heron, have never been standardized. Rick Norwood 14:04, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Some questions

hi , I have some questions and need your help !

1.Actually , what was Pythagoras interested in ? Is it philosophy , music , religious or mathematics ? as the article said " Pythagoras and his students believed that everything was related to mathematics and thought that everything could be predicted and measured in rhythmic patterns or cycles.", he was likely not interested in religious , but he is a great philosopher and founder of the mysterious religious

2. Did people in Pythagoras’s time notice the special relationship between the sides of a right- angled triangle?

3.Why was Pythagoras recognized for the theorem though it had been used before him?

Thanks

1) Pythagoras thought of himself as a philosopher and was interested in demonstrable truth. In terms of religion, what he is known for are things that would be associated with the god Apollo, that is, music, healing, wisdom and opposition to political corruption. His studies included geometry and astronomy but he also devoted his time to politics and assisting in the conduct of wars in his time. 2) Pythagoras supposedly celebrated his discovery of the theorem. He probably came up with an argument proving it from simpler facts and is likely to have shared this information with other mathematicians at this time in a gathering of some sort. Pythagoras existed at a time when there was no publishing industry and knowledge was passed on orally from one generation to the next. He was primarily concerned with the pursuit and spread of knowledge and education in the Greek world and in the process exposing them to ideas from the eastern Mediterranean. 3) The reason that he might have gotten credit for the theorem is that he was seen as a source of wisdom beyond that normally encountered and of a higher realm. He is supposed to have advised the people of his time to build institutions devoted to the Muses and his interest in increasing respect for knowledge may have led him to imitate the organization of the priesthood in Egypt and borrow from other religions. --Jbergquist 10:56, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

influence on Plato

just added paragraph on pythagoras influence on plato- feel free to change/adapt/remove according to your opinion--Greece666 20:20, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

The name Pythagoras

According to Iamblichus, because of his "moral teachings, Pythagoras deserved no longer to be called by his patronymic..." which leads one to wonder if "Pythagoras" was a nick name or an honorific of some sort. The oracle of Apollo at Delphi was named Pythia and the greek word for "market place" was "agora", so would the moniker "Pythagoras" refer to an "oracle of the market place"? The reference in Iamblichus ends "...but that all men should call him divine." --Jbergquist 07:47, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Cylon

There is more that one version of the death of Pythagoras and one also wonders about whether or not there was a Cylon. There is a Greek word χυλοσ which translates as pap or chyle and which suggests something not worth keeping. But with Pythagoras' strict discipline there may be some truth to the story.--Jbergquist 07:56, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Acousmatikoi and Mathematikoi

Hello, The article on Pythagorans, in the part about the Pythagoreans states that: "The akousmatikoi recognized the mathematikoi as real Pythagoreans, but not vice versa." It is actually the other way around. Here is the relevant qoute from Iamblichus (translated by Kirk, Raven and Schofield)

"There are two varieties of the Italian philosophy which is called Pythagorean. For those who practised it were also of two sorts, the acusmatici and the mathematici. Of these the acusmatici were accepted as Pythagoreans by the other patry but they did not allow that the mathematici were Pythagoreans, holding that their intellectual pursuits derived not from Pythagorans but from Hippasus."

G.S. Kirk, J.E. Raven, M. Schofield, 'The Presocratic Philosophers', Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 1983 (2nd edition, p. 234.

Cheers.

this seems interesting- maybe the phrase in the article should be reformulated.--Greece666 11:56, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Inconsistencies

The birth and death dates in the article text don't match the corresponding categories. AnonMoos 17:49, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Cultural depictions of Pythagoras

I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 16:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Pythagorians

I was tempted to mark the whole article as lacking references while I was reading the pythagorians section. It seems to be written in from a personal perspective (see NPOV), e.g. it is interspersed with "seems like". Furthermore it lacks references. --Ben ^T/_C 23:51, 18 October 2006 (UTC) Could you be more specific about what you do not like about the Pythagoreans section. FDR | MyTalk 21:09:51 October 30, 2006 (UTC)

Bean Field Story

This article doesn't seem to have anything about the awesome bean-field story! Salad Days 06:05, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Did he exist?

Well, did he? Was the guy who wrote his biography a good source? Didn't he live a long time after the death of P.?

- A man named Pythagoras probably did found the Pythagoreans. But other than that, yes we know nothing about him. No documents have survived. Maybe he wasn't that interesting :p Everything here and in other histories come from biographies written 700 years after he supposedly lived. Most of it is very likely contrived. Yes, the Pythagoreans existed, but the dude Pythagoras discussed here was a invention in 200AD by historians to provide a figurehead for the Pythagoreans, tell a good story and be fashionable. The problem is that people think that this Pythagoras is real, when he's about as real as King Arthur pulling swords out of stones. matt me 18:04, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Boxing career & Birth date

Who can confirm that Pythagoras was a boxer on 588 BC Olympic games? This information denies his birthdate, but it very much a common belief! Sidik iz PTU 17:20, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

pythagorean's death

on the last paragraph on the 'biography' section, it says:

'According to myth, he died at the hands of a soldier, because he refused to trample a bean-field while fleeing.'

but on the end of the first paragraph on the 'pythagoreans' section it says:

'After the murder of Pythagoras and a number of the mathematikoi by the cohorts of Cylon, a resentful disciple, the two groups split from each other entirely, with Pythagoras's wife Theano and their two daughters leading the mathematikoi.'

so the right one is the second one???

--Chika 11/29/2006

Well, he could have been murdered by the soldier (which would now be called a war crime) or the term "murdered" might be a deliberately emotive word use. axs to the two paragraphs quoted, i can't see any conflict between them. Totnesmartin 19:15, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

SOMEONE VANDALIZED THIS SITE. THEY HAD IT SAY "THE POOP HE ATE WHICH TOOK HIS NAME" INSTEAD OF PYTHAGOREAN THEOREM.

Two fathers

In Bertrand Russell's 'History of Western Philosophy', two possible fathers are listed, the first being Mnesarchus and the second being the god Apollo (presumably their relationship is similar to the Christian God and Christ). This may sound ridiculous, but some people must hold (or have held) this belief and perhaps it should be included? Luke 31/12/06

Depends. What is Bertrand Russell's source for Apollonic heritage? If Bertrand Russell was speculating a couple of millennia after the fact, then no. If Russell had a source and did not identify it, then we should hold off until we could identify who the source was and determine his/her reliability. Brendan 11 Jan 2007

The exact wording is as follows: "Some say he was the son of a substantial citizen named Mnesarchos, others that he was the son of the god Apollo; I leave the reader to take his choice between these alternatives." Presumably, then, it was something he had read and not his own view, but he doesn't cite a source. I don't know what the Wikipedia opinion is on second-hand information. Luke 20/01/07

I don't think it's comparable to Christ. Unless I'm mistaken, Greek God's actually had sex to produce offspring and there was no 'virgin' birth involved or anything 203.109.240.93 13:39, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

External links

The external links list seems to be growing out of control. Can it be reduced or cleaned up? Does this article really need links to a variety of New Age/occult Web sites about Pythagoras? --69.229.201.111 00:30, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

MUCH OF THIS ARTICLE IS WRONG

The article seems to take the classical view of Pythagoras and the Pythagoreans. This has been thoroughly refuted by Walter Burkert in the 1960s.

The seminal work on the life of Pythagoras is: (1962) Walter Burkert: Weisheit und Wissenschaft: Studien zu Pythagoras, Philolaus und Platon (translated into English in 1972 under the title Lore and Science in Ancient Pythagoreanism)

Some of the glaring mistakes in the article: - There is absolutely no proof that pythagoras was a mathematician. There are very few pythagoreans who were mathematicians of note. - The attribution of mathematical theories to pythagoras was an invention by the platonic Academy centuries later. Such attributions to famous sages was very common in ancient greece. - The pythagorean cult was very heavily political.

For recent scholarship on Pythagoras see: Pythagoras: His Life, Teaching and Influence by Christoph Riedweg trans. Steven Rendall · Cornell, 216 pp Pythagoras and the Pythagoreans: A Brief History by Charles Kahn · Hackett, 193 pp.

For a review of the above two books, and the above controversies see: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n04/burn02_.html

Sorry, I can't rewrite the article. First, I am not an expert. Second, I don't have time to research. Someone who can research the above books or others can rewrite the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 196.0.7.1 (talk) 16:04, 17 March 2007 (UTC).

Jvbishop: About your deletion of my two lines

Dear Jvbishop, Your deletion of my two lines that i added for Pythagorus' travel to India (which he might have enjoyed), is fine for the time being. But I may add it soon, once i feel more comfortable with whatever arguments i have. Still, if you find it ok, do give me a reply (reasons) as to whether it will or it won't be ok for you to have that idea added to the article (I will refine those lines, though), in case i provide the two evidences that I am about to talk in next few lines. So far I have found only two evidences for that: one http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/jwh/16.2/mohan.html (same is available on muse.jhu.edu/journals/journal_of_world_history/v016/16.2mohan.html and another indirect one through Seidenberg, A. 1983. "The Geometry of the Vedic Rituals." In The Vedic Ritual of the Fire Altar. Ed. Frits Staal. Berkeley: Asian Humanities Press. The first one is actually based on voltaire's book La civilisation la plus antique. So let me know your arguments, you already know the line of reasoning I may adopt to justify my re-addition (I want to read the Voltaire's book first). My intent is not so sincere though:-), it is to impres upon the reader of the article, on the lines of Voltaire and Seidenberg, that there is sufficient and arguable evidence to suggest that Pythagorus was influenced by Hindu philosophy. And for some reason (obvious or not) I want it to be more direct than a line that just hints that his thoughts were similar to that of hinduism by some coincidence. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.7.175.2 (talk) 19:26, 5 April 2007 (UTC).Skant 19:29, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not Jvbishop, but I'll answer, since this is a question of the historical record rather than a personal matter! The way to proceed is to produce reliable sources, and then to be sure that we don't make the article say more than they warrant. For example, "according to (ancient source X, credible scholar Y)" is always a nice addition. Modern studies by people expert in the sources relating to Pythagoras will in general be much more reliable than Voltaire, etc.! For allegations of Indian sources, see Philostratus. Some of what you've added sounds more applicable to what we hear about Apollonius of Tyana. In any case, I'd suggest you bring your most interesting ancient primary sources, once you find them, to this talk page. Meanwhile, as long as there was no attribution, Jvbishop has only done the neutral and natural thing to keep this out of the article. Wareh 20:20, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I removed the line because you provided no evidence for your assertion that Pythagoras visited India and I had not heard of such a thing. I gave a quick glance at the link you provided above (I'll have more time later) and am not opposed to the readdition of your edit. I apologize if I was a little too quick on the revert button. I would suggest that you add the reference with your edit and explain your addition in the comments of your edit. When I see that someone has made an edit that seems wrong and does not source it or explain in the comments I usually revert it. This article is often prey to heavy vandalism (mostly schools) so I tend to patrol it a little heavy. I do apologize though. Jvbishop 20:23, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I think you did the right thing and that is why I asked you to let me know if my idea of adding it back on the basis of what i say is good or bad. Though i presumed that you may be quick to say no and so i wrote it sarcastically. But I am certainly impressed the way you replied, the addition or re-addition part is secondary, more important thing is how we deal with facts and i liked you straightforwardness and sincerity. Thanks Skant 02:17, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't want to be harsh, but I do want to make it clear to Skant that other editors (myself included) will be opposed to the readdition of such an edit. An edit that misspells both Pythagoras and acharya does not inspire one to believe that it's based on good information about Greece or India; my advice to Skant is to begin by reading some of the books discussed in this review; they are reliable sources for what the historical record says (trustworthy and not) in a way that Voltaire is not. And the academic article that Skant cites contains no references to ancient sources, only discussion of writings of Voltaire in which he was credulous enough to speak of Indians "whom Pythagoras visited for improvement" without further criticism. As far as I can tell, the statement that "there is sufficient and arguable evidence to suggest that Pythagorus was influenced by Hindu philosophy" is not based on an acquaintance with any evidence. Wareh 20:59, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Dear Mr Wareh, Don't worry about being harsh. Because normally If I do not feel the intentions are right, I myself will not care too much about whether i am harsh or not. Now on your spelling related thing, your seem to be too quick to infer a lot from those spelling mistakes. When we talk about an idea or concept, spelling matters only to the extent to which it affects its context or meaning. So I am ignoring the whole spelling related statement of yours. I forgot to add the references that i talked about earlier (irrespective of how much they weigh on your subjective quality scale) and when i saw that my edit got deleted i didn't add it back (along with references), because I am still thinking on it. I don't consider my edits to be final. In fact, the very first attempt is to see how people feel about it and how they react. As per the first message i received from wikipedia, I assume that such simple things as spelling mistakes will be taken care of by someone sooner or later. I mentioned about the book by Voltaire "La civilisation la plus antique", I still do not have access to it, If i will find that Voltaire had specifically said that thing about Pythagorus, I will re-add it in a slightly better way (spelling and sentence wise) and then I will see from there how to defend and what to defend. Till I do that, it is too early to talk on credentials of Voltaire or M.F. Burnyeat or anybody else commenting on Pythagoras.Skant 02:17, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Well I'm sorry for confusing things with the admittedly irrelevant matter of spelling. The main point with Voltaire is that he doesn't seem to have investigated this as a historical question, so his credentials would be irrelevant. I'd be surprised if, after reading Voltaire, you'll find justification for saying more than the (perhaps fairly pointless), "Voltaire made an offhand reference to the tale that..." More important is to keep track of the ancient sources on which secondary sources base their accounts. Any secondary source that doesn't provide verifiable references to the ancient sources is pretty useless as evidence, no matter what the author's name. My reference to Philostratus may be in error; a quick search doesn't produce what I was thinking of. But to add some really interesting evidence for your case, you'll have to find the ancient source, and for that Voltaire will just waste your time, whereas the modern books I pointed you to at least have footnotes! (Meanwhile, may I invite you to explain here the justification for listing a work on "The Geometry of the Vedic Rituals" a secondary source for Pythagoras? On the face of it it looks pretty dubious alongside the other titles.) Wareh 13:21, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Having had time to look into this further I agree with Wareh. All that I can find is scattered assertations that maybe he went to India once. I think some of this may be the misreading of Philostratus. I did some quick scanning of the "Life of Apollonius" and this reading seems to me to suggest that Philostratus (who may not be the most reliable source himself) suggests that parts of Brahman thought were incorporated into Pythagoras. Most other sources I looked at find this a possibility but find it unlikely that Pythagoras traveled to India himself and more likely that he picked up any Indian influences in Persia. So maybe a comment about how it has been suggested that he was influenced by Indian though but this is uncertain? Jvbishop 13:32, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

A useful comparison might be my edit to the "Plotinus" article. Note that I quote an ancient source (Porphyry) for Plotinus' philosophically motivated travels to Persia and India, whereas I cite Frits Staal (same editor Skant is bringing in here) more appropriately for what his book can serve as evidence for: that modern writers have explored similarities between Advaita Vedanta and Neoplatonism. So you see I have myself worked to add content, with appropriate footnotes, making the Greek philosophy-Eastern thought connection, which I hope will help Skant trust that my only motivation here is to make sure any new article text here on that point will be backed up by appropriate citations that really support what the article says! I'd love to see specific references to what ancient sources say, even if they're unreliable crackpot ancient sources! Wareh 13:39, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

The best part of Philostratus concerning Pythagoras and Indian though is in book 6 chapter 11. As far as reliability and such I like to take Philostratus with a grain of salt, especially in this case as he is writing some 600 years post Pythagoras and is telling of Pythagoras only incidentally as he relates to Apollonius. Sort of a separating of ancient and contemporary(to Pythagoras not us). Philostratus is ancient but not contemporary (though with Pythagoras little is). I do like what you did with that edit on Plotinus though. Jvbishop 13:55, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. I liked arguments presented by both of you. As stated by Jvbishop, if i want to write a statement suggesting that greek scholars believed Pythagoras visited India, then i can refer just Philostratus' book and that should be sufficient. If you check http://www.apollonius.net/bernard5e.html link or http://www.livius.org/gs-gz/gymnosophists/gymnosophists.html, you will see both of them say the same thing. The second point about how reliable Philostratus' writings are(we are not talking about whether it is sufficient or not), will become more and more controversial in days to come and is already not a one way deal. If you refer to http://www.apollonius.net/bernard5e.html, he alleges (with lot of reasoning) that Christian did all they could to kill the identity and importance of Philostratus. And he further alleges that they also tried to destroy all the books that could have created conflict for Christian beliefs. Even Pythagoras is not famous for what he really was, but his importance was too good to be denied so he is more famous for Pythagorean theorem than probably his own ideas. Check this link http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pythagoras/, this is what they "The early evidence shows, however, that, while Pythagoras was famous in his own day and even 150 years later in the time of Plato and Aristotle, it was not mathematics or science upon which his fame rested. Pythagoras was famous (1) as an expert on the fate of the soul after death, who thought that the soul was immortal and went through a series of reincarnations; (2) as an expert on religious ritual; (3) as a wonder-worker who had a thigh of gold and who could be two places at the same time; (4) as the founder of a strict way of life that emphasized dietary restrictions, religious ritual and rigorous self discipline." Philostratus' account of things is much more reliable and should be taken with less grain of salt, than the accounts of Christian-biased, Semi-Christian-biased or quarter-Christian-biased philosophers. There are tons of them and in my idiotic opinion, the German philosophy wouldn't have been there if such second or third rated phisolophers were able to discount everything said by anyone who disagreed with Christianity. And without German philosophy, which owes a lot to Greek and Indian philosophy, you wouldn't have had the current philosophy. The plethora of philosophical clerks (commentators who add nothing or sometimes makes thing controversial and lessen importance) of this century will probably add nothing to philosophy. Philosophy may perhaps change its meaning depending upon the kind of philosophers we will produce, but the area that philosophy is supposed to address, "seeking and understanding truth" is our destiny till we survive. That is the essence of "experience" and experience is the basic instinct of why you live. We can suppress it for any reason, but we can not kill the process. For the time being I am more convinced with Voltaire's belief that the indians, the people who wrote commentories on Vedas, started the art and science of philosophy in a comprehensive way and they influenced most of the philosophy we have today, directly and indirectly both; and that is why I want to add that Pythagoras visited India, ofcourse these are not just my opinions24.6.237.22 21:21, 7 April 2007 (UTC).Forgot to add username earlier, Skant 03:12, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

String theory

Additional comment not related to above and by different author - Please remove the bogus String Theory from this article. Placing String Theory next to Buddhism as the most important philosophies in the world almost made me spit my coffee out in laughter. -RWS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.80.244.204 (talk)

Done—let's see if anyone objects. Deor 01:45, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Favism

Hi, I just wrote a paragraph stating that some people beleive that Pythagoras and his followers had favism i realized that i don't have the reference in front of me, but i PROMISE i will post it within the week. -Jordan Fink

Now, why was my post deleted? the "talk" section associated with the deletion said that my contribution was "unhelpful." why? I studied this stuff in college. I want to get the reference right. -jordan fink

Hi Jordan Fink. Reference is the key. If you can provide reliable sources from your collegiate studies on Pythagoras's hereditary disorder involving an allergic-like reaction to the broad, or fava, bean, you could add your information to the article. By the way, this is not a reliable rource. Argos'Dad 03:35, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Hey, I agree about that source. No, it comes from a ethnobotany text at my undergraduate college. But I can't find the title. I'll be up there next week and I'll find the source for ya.

-jf —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.236.157.219 (talk) 07:14, 21 April 2007 (UTC).

golden thigh, writing on the moon, etc

I'm thinking about adding some info taken from the Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable (1898, in the public domain), namely a revised version of this:

The golden thigh of Pythagoras. This thigh he showed to Ab’aris, the Hyperborean priest, and exhibited it in the Olympic games. Abaris, priest of the Hyperbo’reans, gave him a dart, by which he was carried through the air, over inaccessible rivers, lakes and mountains; expelled pestilence; lulled storms; and performed other wonderful exploits. Pythagoras maintained that the soul has three vehicles: (1) the ethereal, which is luminous and celestial, in which the soul resides in a state of bliss in the stars; (2) the luminous, which suffers the punishment of sin after death; and (3) the terrestrial, which is the vehicle it occupies on this earth. Pythagoras asserted he could write on the moon. His plan of operation was to write on a looking-glass in blood, and place it opposite the moon, when the inscription would appear photographed or reflected on the moon’s disc.

Provided, of course, these facts haven't been disproved in some way since that time. Any thoughts? Dr spork 04:20, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Since there were no objections, I've added the above in a section called "lore". Dr spork 03:55, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

"akousmata means "rules""!

So it says in the Pythagoreans section: this is surely false, it comes from akouein, to listen, and, as the article correctly says earlier, they are the listeners. Beyond this, I don't know Pythagoras enough to make the changes. Dast 10:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Music?

I heard Pythagoras was the first to find that strings divided into simple ratios gave pleasing sounds. Obviously we now know it's frequency not the length directly that affects this. But still. Any mention? Henryc4 00:51, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

The article does have this:

According to legend, the way Pythagoras discovered that musical notes could be translated into mathematical equations was one day as he passed blacksmiths at work, and thought that the sounds emanating from their anvils being hit were beautiful and harmonious and decided that whatever scientific law caused this to happen must be mathematical and could be applied to music. He went to the blacksmiths to learn how this had happened by looking at their tools. He discovered that it was because the anvils were "simple ratios of each other, one was half the size of the first, another was 2/3 the size, and so on."

But this is overly-detailed apocryphal biographical stuff. The "Other accomplishments" section is even worse on this subject. At the very least, there should be a link to Pythagorean tuning in the body of the article, which I'll try to provide. Wareh 14:10, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

i think

i think you should make his info a bit more easier to understand case its to difficult to understand.

Ancient tradition that Pythagoras was first to use the term philosophos

Reference to this was removed today, with an edit summary referring to a talk page commentary that doesn't seem to have materialized yet. Anyway, this is a notable ancient tradition, and it should be included in the article (along with scholarly doubts about it). As a starting point, from a hasty Google search, here's a footnote from an article by Tom Habinek: "Against the ancient view that Pythagoras was the first to call himself philosophos, see Burkert 1961 and 1972, endorsed by Skutsch 1985. Against Burkert's critique, see de Vogel 1966.96–102, Gottschalk 1980, and, most recently, Riedweg 2004." Wareh 18:27, 18 September 2007 (UTC)