Talk:Same-sex marriage in Andorra

Untitled

Is this a machine translation? (Alphaboi867 1 July 2005 05:10 (UTC))

I've come here from the copyediting help page, and tried to make sense of it. My source on the government structure was the CIA Factbook, available on line. However, I've kept it as a stub, because there's still a great deal of information that can be added in - for example, whether local groups or those in other parts of Europe promoted the civil union laws; what Andorra's previous attitude towards same sex couples has been, etc. Noirdame 7 July 2005 20:52 (UTC)

Self-contradiction

This article appears to say that only one of the co-princes signed that new law and that both did. Which is the case? Caveat lector 00:01, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

The current edit seems to be talking about two different laws now. Contradiction is resolved, though the article really needs work to help explain this clearly. Yoshi348 (talk) 17:57, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Real marriage or civil unions?

The text says that the "civil" marriage (civil casament) will have a different name than the "religious" marriage (matriomoni canonic). Does this mean that they are going to be two different legal in instruments? Touyats (talk) 17:39, 6 February 2022 (UTC) It is a real marriage. The law passed by parliament on 21 July 2022. It comes into effect in January 2023. https://www.consellgeneral.ad/ca/activitat-parlamentaria/iniciatives-legislatives/proposicions-de-llei/proposicio-de-llei-qualificada-de-la-persona-i-de-la-familia

--92.76.97.233 (talk) 12:49, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it is real marriage. The law explicitly defines "casamentes" as a form of "matrimoni." Moreover, both terms translate to "marriage" in English. Many countries with same-sex marriage use a different term or different process for same-sex civil marriages and religious marriages. For example, South Africa's civil marriages are under the "Civil Union Act" and the UK's same-sex marriage law explicitly bars same-sex couples from certain religious marriages. We count all of these as equal because they are functionally equal. Robsalerno (talk) 22:43, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Highly debatable I'd say. Same-sex marriage in nothern european countries is marriage - i.e. the same legal instrument that have been existing for millennia. Here it's pretty clear that a new legal instrument is being created "casamiento", which may offer pretty similar rights and obligations than standard marriage, but IS NOT marriage. The news is really that Andorra introduced Civil Unions for all (straight and gay couples), and luckly as it is 2022 no discrimination appears here. Your point that "South Africa's civil marriages are under the "Civil Union Act" and the UK's same-sex marriage law explicitly bars same-sex couples from certain religious marriages" does not prove anything, I'm sorry. That religions are granted concentius objection in some cases is not a proof that a civil union statue, like the Andorrean one, becomes a marriage statue automatically just because religious marriage is expempt from accepting same-sex couples. Touyats (talk) 05:15, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

One of the motivations for creating the bill, as layed down in its introduction (Exposició de motius - ), is eliminating the differences between Civil Unions for same-sex couples and Marriage for different-sex couples."Informe de la Comissió Legislativa d'Afers Socials i Igualtat". Butlletí del Consell General – núm. 95/2022 – 15 de juliol del 2022. p. 318.

The bill contains a definiton of "matrimoni" in Article 76 Section 1.

Two forms of marriage (matrimoni) are recognized: |a) Civil marriage (casament civil); and |b) Religious marriage (matrimoni canònic).

Article 78 states that casament civil and matrimoni canònic have the same legal effects.

"Informe de la Comissió Legislativa d'Afers Socials i Igualtat". Butlletí del Consell General – núm. 95/2022 – 15 de juliol del 2022. p. 346.

This suggests casament civil to be marriage.

Amendment 55 (Esmena 55) proposed to change the wording for civil marriage to "matrimoni civil", as they considered to term casament to be confusing. "Informe de la Ponència de la Comissió Legislativa d'Afers Socials i Igualtat". Butlletí del Consell General – núm. 95/2022 – 15 de juliol del 2022. p. 93.

The amendment was rejected. "Informe de la Comissió Legislativa d'Afers Socials i Igualtat". Butlletí del Consell General – núm. 95/2022 – 15 de juliol del 2022. p. 331.

This shows that the terminolocial difference mattered to the majority of the legislators.

It tend to agree with Robsalerno given his examples and the definition of marriage in Art. 76 Sec. 1 Personal and Family Law. Nonetheless, I have to admit that @Touyats has a point that it is suspicious that two different terms are used.

Leobadboy (talk) Leobadboy (talk) 09:58, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Amazing answer, Leobadboy. I would suggest it's a good idea to integrate it in the article's text, at least provisionally, given that it is fully sourced. Touyats (talk) 12:02, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

@Leobadboy I took the liberty to integrate sources you found to better explain the Social Democrats' amendment. Touyats (talk) 09:44, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 21 July 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Vpab15 (talk) 20:02, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

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Recognition of same-sex unions in Andorra → Same-sex marriage in Andorra – Place here your rationale for the proposed page name change, ideally referring to applicable naming convention policies and guidelines, and providing evidence in support where appropriate. If your reasoning includes search engine results, please prioritize searches limited to reliable sources (e.g. books, news, scholarly papers) over other web results. You don't need to add your signature at the end, as this template will do so automatically. Robsalerno (talk) 22:40, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Oppose see below. I think we need a bit of legal guidance here, as both the casament and matrimoni wording is suspicious AND Andorra is not managed as a "regular" country. Touyats (talk) 16:10, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Should it be done already? Isn’t convention to change the title only when a law actually comes into force? If this is the case, we should wait for the 6 months after Macron signs the law to pass. Even though I wouldn’t mind changing it after the proclamation of the law. Cabaret Voltaire 1916 (talk) 11:15, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

I disagree with the title change. Or at least, we need legal guidance. What it looks like is that Andorra never had civil marriage but only Catholic Canonical marriage and the state recognized Canonical marriage for allk intent and purposes as its own. Now they decicided to implement a civil "marriage", open to all couples (and to non-Catholic couples too) except it's not even called "marriage" but "casamiento". So, sorry, this is not marriage for all. This is a form of equalitarian civil union law. At a minimum, let's wait the 6 months to wait for opinions on the law. Touyats (talk) 05:23, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

The law literally says "casamentes" are "matrimoni" -- they're the same thing, just with a slightly different word for religious marriages. No country in the world mandates same-sex religious marriages. Most countries maintain some recognition of religious marriages that are not open to same-sex couples.

"Casamente" literally translates to marriage in English. The distinction is completely unimportant. Similar distinctions in law have not generally been used to deny that marriage equality exists in other countries (eg, South Africa, Taiwan, UK...). Robsalerno (talk) 17:52, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

"slightly different" is still different IMHO. "No country in the world mandates same-sex religious marriages." -> neither no one requires States to force religions to accept same-sex couples... let's not mix things up. The UK has got equal marriage, and its now called marriage both in case of same-sex marriages and opposite-sex marriages. UK's civil union law was a different beast, and it was never considered marriage even if for all intent and purposes it was practically equivalent to a (common-law) marriage. Taiwan and South Africa I dunno, but if you say so then I'm prone to say that even in that case it's not true marriage equality. Touyats (talk) 08:59, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Support the differences are to the religious leaders, but I don't see anything that indicates that any civil authority can make a difference. The most likely question is whether a religiously run institution (like a Hospital can make a difference between the Civil and Religious marriages and between Same Sex and Opposite Sex civil Marriages. Also in some ways it feels like the Religious Marriage was what was created anew or were Jews not allowed to marry each other (or marry Christians) in Andorra?Naraht (talk) 17:35, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Support, once the bill receives the signature of either co-prince. Panda2018 0 (talk) 14:47, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

If a country only recognixe Canonical Marriage, usually non-Catholic can marry by asking permission to the Church. So probably this law change also give a fairer path to non-catholics by was of using the civil 'casament'. Touyats (talk) 16:03, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

The point I'm making is that Casament is not matrimoni. Both translate "marriage",@Robsalerno says, but "matrimoni" is clearly the cognate of "marriage", while "casament" it's not. (It's similar to italian "accasarsi" - "to create a family/a household"). In many law systems, tecnically marriage is a socio-economic union of a men and a woman (or two people in case of equal marriage). It is so in Italy, and Andorra being part of southern Europe, may interpret marriage/matrimoni in the same way, and in a slightly different way of "casament"s. I feel these are just glorified civil unions. Touyats (talk) 16:24, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Support - But what the law says is that there are two types of "matrimoni" -- civil casament and canonical matrimoni. It clearly defines casament as matrimoni. It says it is the same thing. Not just different and equal, but part of the same category called "matrimoni"/marriage. Robsalerno (talk) 18:20, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Support, Once the bill receives one of the two necessary signatures. Whether or not a religion recognizes a marriage performed under secular law is irrelevant. An English-speaking point of comparison would be the distinction people make between "marriage" and "Holy matrimony". It's exactly the same thing but one is "blessed" by that religions' God and the other isn't. It is the choice of the couple whether they want to add the religious element to it. Chase1493 (talk) 02:41, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Support per Robsalerno and Chase1493. I think we may be overthinking this. Jdcooper (talk) 22:56, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

• Support per WP:CONCISE.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  09:32, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Support It is almost the same thing that happened in South Africa. The law that regulates same-sex marriages there is the Civil Union Act. Raniee09 (talk) 10:48, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Section on controversy on casament wording

I wrote a section detailing the controversy about 'casament' and 'matrimoni'. @Panda2018 0 you removed it. Care to explain why? If you think it's original research or non-NPOV, please mark it with the appropriate template. Or let's discuss here first if it should stay or go. Touyats (talk) 16:06, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

It was not removed, but merged with the previous section and reformulated. No need to have a separate section for it. Panda2018 0 (talk) 16:40, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

32nd country.

1. Netherlands 2. Belgium 3. Spain 4. Canada 5. South Africa 6. Norway 7. Sweden 8. Portugal 9. Iceland 10. Argentina 11. Denmark 12. Brazil 13. France 14. Uruguay 15. New Zealand 16. Luxembourg 17. United States 18. Ireland 19. Colombia 20. Finland 21. Malta 22. Germany 23. Australia 24. Austria 25. Taiwan 26. Ecuador 27. United Kingdom (complete with Northern Ireland) 28. Costa Rica 29. Chile 30. Switzerland 31. Slovenia 32. ? Andorra

Andorra is currently set to be the 32nd country to legalise same-sex marriage, though eventually may be the 33rd (Cuba), or maybe even the 34th or 35th. We cannot know, and this sort of language should only be added once we know for certain. Panda2018 0 (talk) 23:00, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

You forgot Mexico, in which it's legally recognized throughout the country since 2015 per a Court ruling. Anyways, Andorra legalised when the law got signed. Other countries legalising before the law come into effect doesn't mean Andorra will somehow have legalised later than it did.--Aréat (talk) 23:10, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

It's recognized in Mexico, but not performed throughout the nation. It's only then that we call it 'legalized.' Bkatcher (talk) 00:25, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

AFAIA, If Cuba's referendum passes it will come into effect straight away, or at least might. In that case, they would be higher on the list, ie. the 32nd country. I don't see the problem with leaving that information out until it's certain, per WP:CRYSTAL. Jdcooper (talk) 01:37, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

It's not legal nationwide in Mexico, hence why it shouldn’t be counted. Media count it; they shouldn’t. Anyway, this is getting kinda silly. The sentence is now quite wordy. I think we should just wait until 17 February 2023 to know for certain. In the meantime, the sentence should be left out. Panda2018 0 (talk) 08:56, 26 August 2022 (UTC)