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Saori@destiny is not stylized[edit]

The at symbol in Saori@Destiny's artist name is not stylized and is a legitimate part of the artist name. Without it, this entire page naming her as "Saori Destiny" is incorrect.

There is proof for this as many legitimate sources have kana for her name as "saori atto desutinii" (サオリアットデスティニー) such as this interview with OCN (in Japanese) plus her official Myspace account has this in the Japanese portion of her biography and the artist herself introduces herself as "Saori at Destiny" as seen in this video.

Unfortunately I'm not entirely sure how to move this page back to the Saori@Destiny/Saori@destiny. Any help with this would be appreciated. --Crystalworld (talk) 16:38, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Name her page as "Saori Destiny" is correct per MOS:TM. The page can be named "Saori at Destiny" per the kana you provided but it cannot be "Saori@destiny". MS (Talk|Contributions) 16:45, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm not exactly sure how to move it, but "Saori at Destiny" sounds good, plus it makes writing a lot simpler (being able to write Destiny rather than Saori@destiny). I'll look into it. - Torika (talk) 12:53, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
Done, it was a lot simpler than I'd anticipated (so you know, the Move button is to the right of Talk and you just have to put the new name and reason) - Torika (talk) 12:59, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Those kana transcribe as "saori atto desuteĭnī". Anthony Appleyard (talk) 14:16, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
    It should be サオリアットディスティニー which is "Saori Atto Disutinī" as ティ/ディ is a digraph to approximate a sound not found in Japanese (and for some reason "destiny" is "distinii" in Japan).—Ryulong (琉竜) 21:27, 18 August 2012 (UTC)


The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move. While the typical practice is to avoid special characters in titles, we can't create new names that don't appear in any reliable sources.Cúchullain t/c 20:11, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Saori at DestinySaori@destiny

  • Restore original page name, as it is the proper name of the subject (the at sign is not one of the special characters prohibited by WP:MOSTM as originally claimed). —Ryulong (琉竜) 05:50, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
    Let me also point out @ is used in article titles for businesses. The fact this singer is Japanese in origin shouldn't mean anything, despite the fact that there has been a long standing preference to make anything Japanese special in how page titles are treated on the English Wikipedia.—Ryulong (琉竜) 21:30, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
    It's worth noting near all titles in the stated list are redirects. Not to mention that Wikipedia:Other stuff exists is not really a appropriate argunemt. Have to agree that most on the list should likely be moved.--Labattblueboy (talk) 16:56, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
    "Other stuff exists" is a perfectly fine arguent to put forward when presenting that this page is not in line with other pages on Wikipedia. I find it difficult to believe that the @ is considered a "special character" when it is how this person's name is written in all reliable sources, regardless of the fact that those reliable sources are in the Japanese language. This isn't like the dollar sign in Ke$ha standing for an S or the exclamation point in P!nk standing for an I. This is a standard figure that we know is read as @ and is in use elsewhere on Wikipedia.—Ryulong (琉竜) 00:10, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose per MOS:TM Avoid using special characters that simply substitute for English words And those pages you found should be moved according to MOS:TM -- (talk) 00:12, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
    So all ampersands (&) should be forbidden as well then? @ is a common typographic figure, and it is most certainly not a "special character" like a heart or a star.—Ryulong (琉竜) 02:14, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
    The strudel @ is not an "at", unlike the ampersand, which is an "and". "@" has been around a long time, and has a lot of different meanings. -- (talk) 05:46, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
    So a long historical usage should override its current name and usage?—Ryulong (琉竜) 07:41, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose As noted above, on basis of MOS:TM.--Labattblueboy (talk) 16:56, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
    I don't really see how an @ violates MOS:TM, particularly when this is an individual's (performing) name.—Ryulong (琉竜) 00:52, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
    Rather simple, "avoid using special characters that are not pronounced, are included purely for decoration, or simply substitute for English words". If the name is pronounced Saori Destiny than @ is for decoration; if it's Saori at Destiny than its substituting a character for an English word. In either case its inappropriate.--Labattblueboy (talk) 02:19, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
    Again, how is the @ a "special character"?—Ryulong (琉竜) 02:39, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
    See Special characters for the ASCII special characters list--Labattblueboy (talk) 02:55, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
    We don't forbid all of those characters though.—Ryulong (琉竜) 03:04, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
    We do when they are used as decoration or to substitute for English words.--Labattblueboy (talk) 03:45, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
    I've never been happy with the way MOS:TM is used on Wikipedia. I understand that we shouldn't have Unicode stars or hearts in titles. But when it comes to characters easily accessed on the keyboard I don't see why we forbid their use, particularly when it's the only way the name is written.—Ryulong (琉竜) 05:45, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Support Just because of MOS/TM does not mean that Wikipedia should invent or promote names or terms that the general public does not use. Even MoS/TM itself says that we should use the name used commonly. Look at all the article's sources! The have the proposed title. Hill Crest's WikiLaser (Boom.) (talk) 04:18, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment Let me quote MoS/TM itself:

"When deciding how to format a trademark, editors should choose among styles already in use (not invent new ones) and choose the style that most closely resembles standard English, regardless of the preference of the trademark owner. This practice helps ensure consistency in language and avoids drawing undue attention to some subjects rather than others."

Really, does MOS/TM has to be misquoted all the time? Hill Crest's WikiLaser (Boom.) (talk) 04:25, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Apparently it does whenever the subject is a Japanese individual. I can't think of one instance where "Saori at Destiny" has been used to refer to this person other than on Wikipedia, but that may be because her presence is not known in the English market.—Ryulong (琉竜) 04:54, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Administrator's comment It would be helpful to see how sources write the name. For what it's worth, all of the ones currently included use the @; none use "Satori at Destiny".--Cúchullain t/c 18:18, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Support. MOS/TM does not, as far as I can tell, compel us to make up a new name which is not used by sources. If it did, I'd push hard to change that rule. bobrayner (talk) 16:57, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Support. Per Cuchullain (talk · contribs)... follow usage in sources. No one opposing this proposal has even suggested that usage in sources supports the current title. Per iTunes, too. --Born2cycle (talk) 19:28, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.