Talk:Sarayburnu

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Palace Nose

Opening line is incorrect, and I have made changes to reflect this. Here is what I changed, and why:

Sarayburnu (Turkish: Sarayburnu, meaning Cape of the Seraglio), known in English as the Seraglio Point

Changed to:

Sarayburnu (Turkish: Sarayburnu, meaning Palace Nose; also known, Italianized, as Seraglio Point[1] )

Saray is Turkish for 'palace' and Burun, 'nose'. When paired in possession becoming 'Sarayburnu'. Just as one might refer to a 'finger of land' or 'finge lake', the Turks refer to this spur of land as a 'nose'. Likewise, the İstanbul Boğazı, the straight connecting the Black and Marmara Seas, means 'Neck of Istanbul', because of it's shape.

I included a dictionary reference to support the Italian origin of 'Seraglio'. Here is another:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/seraglio

Mavigogun (talk) 07:02, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are plenty of Google hits for Sarayburnu meaning "Seraglio Point". There are no sources that support the claim that Sarayburnu means "Palace Nose". Putting that in the article amounts to original research.

The meaning of a compound word can in general not be obtained by a literal word-by-word translation of the components without taking account of the context. In translating from one language to another, one should always pick the most appropriate translation of each word, and not just the first one in a dictionary. The Turkish word burun has several meanings, including 'headland', 'cape', 'point', 'promontory'.[1]. 'Palace Cape', 'Palace Point', or 'Palace Promontory' are reasonable literal translations of Sarayburnu. 'Palace Nose' is not.

In Sarayburnu the component Saray is short for, and means, Topkapı Sarayı, that is, in present-day English, "the Topkapi Palace". In 'Seraglio Point' the component 'Seraglio' is short for, and means, "the Topkapi Seraglio", that is, in present-day English, "the Topkapi Palace". In other words, the component Saray in Sarayburnu means the same as the component 'Seraglio' in 'Seraglio Point'. Therefore it is fair to say, in this context, that Saray means "the Seraglio", and in fact "Seraglio Point" is a perfectly adequate translation of Sarayburnu into English. --Lambiam 20:11, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Having investigated further, I have to say I concur with Lambiam's translation wording and would like to reinstate it. Kafka Liz (talk) 13:07, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually that is not quite correct if I may interject. The book by Fanny Davis. Palace of Topkapi in Istanbul. 1970. ASIN B000NP64Z2 clearly refers to "Palace Point" on at least 11 pages (pgs. 7, 17, 40, 179, 209, 261, etc.) the term "Seraglio Point" however she does not mention once. Since saray means "palace", which used to be also called "seraglio" from Italian but the harem was also called that, I would actually tend to call it "Palace Point" as well, instead of an antiquated Italian (mis)translation. Gryffindor 12:07, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Er... what exactly is it that is not quite correct? I see no contradiction between what you wrote and what Kafka Liz or I wrote. Further, you may prefer "Palace Point" (a designation about which I have only said that it is a reasonable literal translation of Sarayburnu), but the Google hit counts suggest that "Seraglio Point" is used far more commonly, by a factor of 200 or so. --Lambiam 23:30, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can get on board with a wording that represents the translation of the Turkish as "Palace Point", independent of any statements regarding the use of "Seraglio"; Thankfully, our standard of quality is not ruled by the most number of hits generated by Google (otherwise, we will need to redefine nauseated and nauseas as well as 'irregardless'). By such a measure of fact and accuracey, you could establish that the child George Washington chopped down a cherry tree, proclaiming, 'I can not tell a lie' -a modern fabrication that has been so broadly propagated that (I hazard to assert) the balance of Americans accept it as fact. Mavigogun (talk) 06:45, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Google hit count was mentioned with one purpose only: to corroborate the statement that "Seraglio Point" is a more common name in English for this neighbourhood of Istanbul than "Palace Point". The Wikipedia naming conventions require that article names prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, which is not a standard of truth or of quality, but nevertheless a reasonable convention. If the Google hit count is as decisive as it is in this case (200 to 1, unlike the 1 to 186 defeat of "irregardless" against "regardless", so you are equating ratios that are off by four orders of magnitude) it is fair to use it as evidence. --Lambiam 09:54, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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