Talk:She: A History of Adventure

1887 character inspired by 20th-century personage?

"'She' is a novel by H. Rider Haggard, first serialized in The Graphic from October 1886 to January 1887. ... This character [Ayesha] was supposedly inspired by the Balobedu Rain Queen Mokope Modjadji."

-- from Mokope Modjadji:

"Mokope Modjadji V was the fifth Rain Queen of the Balobedu Tribe in the Limpopo Province of South Africa from 1981 until her death in 2001."

There's obviously something seriously wrong here. One supposes that either

A) One of the previous Rain Queens was meant (Masalanabo Modjadji? Reigned 1854-1895)

B) The comparison was added to the article as a joke.

Can anybody straighten this out? -- 27 december 2005

I think you must be right in that a previous Rain Queen was meant. Thank you for detecting the error! Zora 20:43, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

“the present”

Since this article might be reproduced as some future time when She is no longer in print, it is perfectly appropriate to parenthetically date “the present”. —Gamahucheur 11:44, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:SHE.jpg

Image:SHE.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 05:01, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Another film

At Valeska Surratt, under "Filmography", a 1917 "She" film is mentioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.173.47.120 (talk) 12:05, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Hmmmm, never heard of it... but would be good to get info. I intend to properly expand this article shortly so an extensive adapttion section will be needed. ✽ Familiae Watt§ ^(TALK) 12:12, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Revamp

Suggested article outline for revamp:

• Conception and Creation

-Publication

• Synopsis (holly, leo, Ayesha, Utuna, Job, high priest)

• Genre

-fantasy

-lost world

-adventure novel

-Gothic/fin-de-sciele

• Themes

-Imperialism

-Racism

-The New Woman

-historicity

• Critical interpretation

-feminist

• Reception

• Legacy (adaptations)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Junipers Liege (talk • contribs) 05:05, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Unsourced material

The following is material that was included in the article but with no source or reference. If a reference can be supplied, the information can be worked back in to a relevant section. ✽ Juniper§ Liege ^(TALK) 09:34, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

• Her true name "Ayesha" is a variant transcription of the Arabic word pronounced Aisha, meaning "she-who-lives" . This was also the name of the wife of Prophet Muhammad.

The name Ayesha is mentioned in the actual book, as is the point about it being the name of the wife of Muhammad. However, I am not familiar with the translation as "she-who-lives". If a source can be found for this it may be good to integrate, but otherwise, given the material is part of the actual text, I don't think it needs to be included. ✽ Juniper§ Liege ^(TALK) 05:37, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

• The character was supposedly inspired by the Balobedu Rain Queen Masalanabo Modjadji. Jung, who admired Haggard's myth-making powers, used She to illustrate his concept of the anima. - references to other encyclopedia's are generally not considered proper sources. Additionally, Haggard offficially denied this as a source of She.... but it may be an interesting point to include somewhere in the article at a later stage.

• This book was translated into Urdu in the early 20th century by Munshi Muhammad Khalilur Rehman, a noted scholar, under the title "Azra" and was published from Lahore. It became a big best-seller and is still being printed from Lahore. The sequel was also translated by the same scholar under the title "Azra ki wapsi". Although the translation was not quite impressive, but later in 1972-73 it was translated by Mazhar-ul-Haq-Alvi, a well-known Author from Ahmedabad, India under the title "Ayesha", "Ayesha ki Wapsi" and "Ayesha-o-Allan" which was a greatly notified work and the translation was highly appreciated. Also he was well known for his translations for Haggard's complete works. - this constitutes the entire section on "Translations" and so I have removed that section for the time being..... but it would be good to include this, if someone can get some sources and flesh it out a bit.

• In addition, the story was lampooned in two issues of Justice League Task Force written by Peter David. In these issues, the Martian Manhunter takes on a female form (“Joan J'onzz”) to join an all-female Justice League — Wonder Woman, Maxima, Vixen, Gypsy and Dolphin — in confronting “Her Who Must Be Served”.

• The Marvel Comics character Kismet, originally known as "Her", was also named Ayesha at one point.

• An episode of the comic Tim Tyler's Luck, translated into an Italian edition album, became the inspiration of Umberto Eco's The Mysterious Flame of Queen Loana.

• In 1887, Window Curtains (1880) by Timothy Shay Arthur, an otherwise unrelated tale of embezzlement, was reissued as “Me” Or the Story of the Window Curtains – A Companion to “She”, and falsely attributed to Haggard.

• In the British series Rumpole of the Bailey, Horace Rumpole refers to his wife Hilda as "She Who Must be Obeyed".

• The character La, of Opar, created by Edgar Rice Burroughs is, clearly, influenced by Haggard's She.

• In Part Two of Angels in America a nurse tells Belize (Jeffrey Wright) that the night before she watched a movie on TV starring a character named "She who must be obeyed." Swearing it's the best movie ever made, she is probably referring to the 1982 adaptation of She given the play's setting in the 1980s.

• In the Elizabeth Peters novel The Last Camel Died at Noon, a tongue-in-cheek hommage to H. Rider Haggard, an English-born orphan (Nefret Forth) has been raised in the Sudanese desert and is worshiped as the virgin priestess of a lost city of ancient Egypt. Smitten with her at first sight, a preteen Ramses Emerson repeatedly refers to her as "SHE", complete with italics.

Popular culture

The following list is that of unsourced material taken from the popular culture section prior to its re-writing.

• Andrew Lang also used She in his 1890 collection Old Friends: Essays in Epistolary Parody, the gimmick of which was it consisted of correspondence between disparate literary characters (for example, Lecoq asks Inspector Bucket to arrest Count Fosco, but instead Mr Pickwick finds himself extradited). In the case of She, Herodotus provides Sophocles with an early description of Ayesha, and Flinders Petrie reports an associated discovery to Holly.

• W. H. Auden poked fun at She with one of his Literary Graffiti (a collections of clerihews):

Sir Rider Haggard
Was completely staggered
When his bride-to-be

Announced "I AM SHE!"

• The original tiara used by Storm is, quite probably, a reference to the ankh that symbolizes Ayesha's cult in Return of She. Her elemental powers are very similar with the special faculties that were used by Ayesha in the same novel.

The first I do not feel warrants inclusion and is too incidental, but if the others can be sourced they may be worked into the relevant sections and beside relevant material. ✽ Juniper§ Liege ^(TALK) 05:56, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Popular culture

There are at least four other alternate tales of Ayesha: King of Kor or She's Promise Kept, a Continuation of the Great Story of She (1903) by Sidney J. Marshall; Peter Tremayne's contemporary sequel The Vengeance of She (published 1978 and unrelated to the film of the same name; Journey to the Flame (1985:11/01)) by Richard Monaco; and Sherlock Holmes: On the Roof of the World; or The Adventure of the Wayfaring God by Thomas Kent Miller (1987) which not only attempts to fit within the canon of Haggard's four novels but also within the adventures of Sherlock Holmes established by Arthur Conan Doyle. Further, She was rewritten as H. Rider Haggard's She [Retold] (1949) by Don Ward for Dell.

Haggard's She was lampooned by four works in 1887:

• He by Andrew Lang and Walter Herries Pollock
• He, A Companion to She, Being a History of the Adventures of J. Theodosius Aristophano on the Island of Rapa Nui in Search of His Immortal Ancestor by John de Morgan
• He (“by the Author of It, King Solomon's Wives, Bess, Much Darker Days, Mr. Mortons Subtler and Other Romances”) by an unknown author
• It, A Wild, Weird History of Marvelous, Miraculous, Phantasmagorial Adventures in Search of He, She, and Jess, and Leading to the Finding of It; A Haggard Conclusion by an unknown author

(These were collected as They (1978) by Robert Reginald and Douglas Menville.)

It was stated in Marvel Comics' X-Men that Ayesha was the name of an ancestor of Ororo Munroe, also known as Storm. Ayesha was the Supreme Sorcerer of her times.

Adaptations

The following are unsourced statements from the adaptations section:

• A television series titled She was produced by the South African Broadcasting Corporation in the late 1970s or early 1980s.

• There have been several audio adaptations, including at least two from the BBC, the most recent being a Radio 4 broadcast starring Tim McInnerny on 2 and 9 July 2006.

• In 2008 it has been reworked as a rock opera by Clive Nolan, in a project with Agnieszka Swita as Ayesha.

It would be good to reincorporate this material back into the adaptation sections, so please do once the information can be properly sourced. ✽ Juniper§ Liege ^(TALK) 03:55, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

References

Comments

(Note, I was brought here by a post at WP:NOVELS.) I'm not familiar with the work, unfortunately, but I must say that this article is certainly impressive; it's definitely on its way to becoming Featured-material. Although FAC is definitely an attainable goal here, you may want to consider nominating it at WP:GAC first, or if you want more varied input from other editors, you can always open a peer review. A few things to consider:

• I like leaving the lead until last, as well, so that's quite all right.
• Although it's currently being debated by the FA-masterminds, images now require alt text for the visually impaired. The images currently included seem to be correctly tagged and such, although I'm not an expert on copyright. You may also want to consider adding an additional image or two to the latter part of the article, to liven things up.
• The "Background" section is quite long, which tends to intimidate readers (me being one of them :). Is there a way to split them into subsections, perhaps by time periods?
• The citations and their formatting look great to me, although because there are two seemingly different versions of She in the "References" section, it's not clear which edition is being referred to in citations 60, 66, 77, etc. You may want to clarify these usages by adding the publication date, such as with: "She (2006), p. 143".
• Bullet lists, such as in the "Adaptations" section, are often depreciated at FAC. While it's far easier to list such things, a simple paragraph detailing the information is thought to be more professional.
• The weakest link, IMO, is the "Popular culture" section. These areas tend to be hotspots for well-meaning newbies who think any Simpsons or Dr. Who reference to a work of art or fiction is worth being mentioned in a Wikipedia article. Some of the information may be worth keeping, such as the historical parodies, but in a much truncated version, I think.
• If the adaptations are going to be listed in their own section, they do not need to be listed again under "See also".

I hope this helps! Let me know if you have any questions. María (habla conmigo) 15:01, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks so much for your comments, Maria - really appreciate them! Agree, the Adaptations and Popular culture sections are the weakest; currently, they stand as the only parts of the article that I have not reworked in some way.... I will get round to it, but it is a bit difficult because so much of these sections are unsourced, so I may end up haivng to cut most of them out. But I hope to properly put the information in paragraphs and remove the "listing" feel to these sections.

Thanks for your comment regading the "Background" section - I was worried about that too - your idea for creating subsections is a good one, and I think the best way to go so will get onto it. Thanks for the suggestion!

Good to know about not having to list the adaptations in the See also section also - didn't know that, thanks. I'll also fix the references to the actual edition of She I've used, so it is more obvious.

Again, thanks for taking the time to review the article. Really appreciate it. :) ✽ Juniper§ Liege ^(TALK) 05:29, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

You're welcome, and if you need more specific suggestions re: the prose and such, just let me know. I didn't get a chance to read the article in its entirety the other day, but seeing as how you have such a good grasp on it, I'd be more than happy to take a look once you're satisfied with the revamping. (And thanks for the reciprocation for "The Open Boat"! Very kind of you.) María (habla conmigo) 16:41, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:She: A History of Adventure/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: –– Jezhotwells (talk) 13:50, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I shall be reviewing this article against the Good Article criteria, following its nomination for Good Article status.

Checking against GA criteria

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

   She is part of the adventure subgenre of literature which was especially popular around the turn of the 19th century, but which remains an important form of fiction to the present day. This should be turn of the 20th century as the work was published in 1886. I reworded this.

   I made a number of minor fixes.[1]

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   I assume good faith for all print sources. All online sources are live and support the assertions,

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   Thorough and focussed

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   All OK

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   An interesting and well researched article. I am happy to award GA status.

From the lead

I'm puzzled by this sentence: "It has received praise and criticism alike for its gendered representation of womanhood." What exactly does it mean for a representation of something to be "gendered"? Because womanhood specifically refers to the female gender, can any representation of womanhood not be "gendered"? It just sounds like some sort of LitCrit jargon to me. Can someone translate it into ordinary English, or would it be better just to delete it? — CWesling (talk) 21:22, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Number of copies sold

It says that 83 million copies of the novel have been sold. But these numbers are from 1965, which is soon 50 years ago. Is there really no updated info about how many copies that have been sold? 84.210.17.201 (talk) 12:21, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Great Zimbabwe

It is long time since I read the book, but I understand since that it is part of the myth of ancient Zimbabwe. At the time the white colonists believed that the stone ruins of Great Zimbabwe were the remains of some ancient civilisation (Greek or Arabic, non-African). All this stuff about the degeneration of the original inhabitants is part of the myths of Ancient Zimbabwe. The ruins include the hill top cave which is believed to be the site of an oracle, and also the mysterious fire in the story. Also the story refers to the characters communicating with the Africans in "bastard Arabic" which became even more "bastardised" as they went further inland. This is a reference to the Swahili language, which was a form of pidgin Arabic used on the coast, which becomes more Bantu further away from the coast. In Zimbabwe they do not use Swahili, but some of the Bantu words in Ci-shona are similar to Swahili.

09:22, 16 July 2016 (UTC)~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Noel Ellis (talk • contribs)

Kôr

In the #Synopsis, paragraph 3, 1st sentence, "the lost city of Kôr". Kôr redirects to Tolkein's fictional ancient ruin Tirion. Tolkein had borrowed the name in early editions of one of his more obscure titles, and then, it seems, he thought better of it and renamed his town Tirion (maybe he only intended Kôr as a placeholder). My point being, Kôr would more usefully be redirected to this article. Tolkein is arguably more popular today, but Hagger was earlier by several decades, and a best seller of his era. She the novel was certainly well known to Tolkein; this was no coincidence.

I am not good with redirects and disambig. I seem to create them by accident, but in trying intentionally, I do more harm than good. If some kind editor could correct this case of well-intended misdirection, I would be grateful. ragity (talk) 19:09, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

King of Kor spin-off

What is the status of the 1903 novel The King of Kor by Sidney Marshall? It was reprinted in 1978 by Arno Press as a continuation of "She" (that's how the original subtitle identifies it). It was initially self-published by Marshall and is not listed under sequels here. Was it unauthorized? Published fan fiction? 23skidoo (talk) 19:55, 1 November 2023 (UTC)