Talk:Somerset/Archive 2

dead ref link

Autumn newsletter 2007 (PDF). Mendip Hills AONB. http://www.mendiphillsaonb.org.uk/publications/up_081015_autumn07_lo.pdf This has gone dead already, i can't find it in their archives, nor on webarchive.org --Derek Andrews 13:04, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Link is now working again - nice apologetic email from webmaster of Mendip Hills AONB.— Rod ^talk 18:07, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Transport - missing section

I think that transport in Somerset is a missing section. There should be information about the major roads (M5, A303, A38, A37, A39 etc.) and buses/railways as well as Bristol International Airport. Opinions? --Cheesy Mike 10:36, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I would agree & would suggest it needs to include rivers as well as something historical on turnpike roads, canals, closed railways etc. I will add it to the WikiProject Somerset/to do list.— Rod ^talk 10:49, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Its there. Took it out of the Human Occupation and moved it down into its own subsection. Pyrotec (talk) 10:16, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

univs

Following the comment on the FAC page about the univs, I started to work on a bit more info but suspect it's too long/ too much history. I offer it here in case it's useful as source material for anyone else to pick up on.

Bath University and Bath Spa University are higher education establishments in the north-east corner of the county. Bath University gained its Royal Charter in 1966, although its origins go back to Bristol Trade School (founded 1856) and Bath School of Pharmacy (founded 1907). It has a purpose-built campus on the outskirts of Bath, and has 12,000 students). Bath Spa University achieved University status in 2005, and has origins including the Bath Academy of Art (founded 1898), Bath Teacher Training College, and the Bath College of Higher Education. It has several campuses and 5,500 students.

PamD (talk) 10:41, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Proposed addition

Try moving your cursor over this. Interested? I have made Devon and Bristol Channel links go nowhere, but they could go to the article? Victuallers (talk) 19:45, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I like it but will it work with all browsers etc? what about text to speech readers? Is there any precedent for the use of these image maps? This article is currently a FA candidate & I wouldn't want some innovative change which is going to upset any FA reviewers.— Rod ^talk 20:08, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

It works better for text to speech convertors I think (speaking as a sighted person) as you can move your cursor (notice I didnt say mouse) to find out what each area is.. without having to look up "4" in a list below. Does it work on FA articles? The lead FA article on the front page tomorrow is Queluz National Palace and it has an image map at its centre (as of 3 days ago). Does it work with all browsers ... its standard HTML (v. 3.0 I think). But its the consensus that decides Victuallers (talk) 20:26, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

It certainly doesn't work the same way on all browsers. Firefox displays the tooltips as intended so you see "4 Sedgemoor" as you hover over that part of the county. However on Safari you see the URL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedgemoor which is rather ugly. Few people are aware that you can do imagemaps on Wikipedia and are used to the default behaviour that clicking on an image takes you to the original image, so I doubt many people would bother to click on it in the way it is intended. I don't think it adds much value to the article so don't support its use. --Cheesy Mike (talk) 09:48, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Sad news about Safari. It does work with the top two. Arguments are a bit contradictory in that few people will use it and it won't work right for all those who don't use the top two browsers. However ... the general feeling is negative and it may confuse your FA application - so I'll take that with no hard feelings. Victuallers (talk) 12:19, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Review

A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style. If you would find such a review helpful, please click here.SriMesh | talk 03:49, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I hope it takes into account that this is a British English article and doesn't flag spelling.--TimTay (talk) 08:02, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

disambig

The following links need disambig:
 Done-arable
 Done-barry
-festival of lights
- Done-lias
- Done-parliamentarian
- Done-preparatory schools
- Donevale
Randomblue (talk) 23:47, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

As indicated above, some done but I can't find a moreappropriate article for festival of lights or vale.— Rod ^talk 08:37, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I think Valley is OK for vale PamD (talk) 08:45, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Not sure that Festival of lights really is a dab page! In the sentence in the article "festival of lights" is used as a common noun, to say that the Somerset one is one of the biggest - this dab page is more or less an article about such festivals, including a list of them. Is it a dab page, an article, or a list? Seems the appropriate place for this sentence to link to, in any case. PamD (talk) 08:52, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree, now undabbed. The appropriate link is West Country Carnival, which is one line on the Festival of lights page.Pyrotec (talk) 17:29, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I've relinked it - when I read "the largest Festival of Lights in Europe" I want to know what a FoL is, and the article/list/dab page at Festival of Lights explains it. I believe it's a useful link. PamD (talk) 18:11, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

The West Country Carnivals are a series of carnival processions that take place in various towns involving illuminated carts, and is linked to the Gunpowder plot. I'm not convinced that Festival of Lights explains it. To be more precise, it total fails to mention it.Pyrotec (talk) 19:47, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Festival of Lights explains what's meant by the statement in the text that the West Country Carnivals are "the largest Festival of Lights in Europe", don't you think? PamD (talk) 23:55, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

The Festival of Lights states this in respect of West Country Carnivals - held in various towns in south west England - which is fairly accurate, but does it add any thing? I'm tempted to borrow the book that is used for the reference "festival of lights"; see what it actually says; and if necessary re-write the sentence in Somerset. The Carnivals are a celebration of Guy Fawkes: even adding held in early November, which is an extra four words, would improve the Festival of Lights article; adding dating back some 400 years to the time of the Gunpowder Plot and held in early November would significantly improve it, and that is only adding 17 words.Pyrotec (talk) 20:30, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Comments

I haven't had time to put a complete review together yet for FAC, but I have a couple of comments so I thought I'd post here on the talk page. I will try to find time to add to these; I hope they're useful.

•  DoneHowever, Somerton is not down on the levels (in the Toponymy section): "levels" is not a term that will mean anything to readers unfamiliar with Somerset, so I suggest that you put a quick explanation in the middle of the sentence, or else use a different term. E.g. "Somerton was not down on the levels—lower ground, where only summer occupation was possible because of flooding—but" etc.
•  Donetaken from the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle: to be exact, it was taken from the entry for 878, which you can see here. Here's a translation of part of that, taken from this Gutenberg text: "Then, in the seventh week after Easter, he rode to Brixton by the eastern side of Selwood; and there came out to meet him all the people of Somersersetshire, and Wiltshire, and that part of Hampshire which is on this side of the sea; and they rejoiced to see him." This sentence is part of the story of Alfred raising his army. This is all definite enough that I think you can drop the "thought to" in "the phrase is thought to refer to".
•  DoneI'd suggest changing "Dark Ages" to "Early Middle Ages"; the former term is not really in use by historians any more; and in fact the Wikipedia article on it as about the term, not the period.
•  DoneOn the authority of the future emperor Vespasian: this sounds odd -- presumably this was part of the ongoing expansion of the Roman presence in Britain? The way it reads now, it's as if the Romans were settled in Britain but received special instructions from Vespasian to invade Somerset. I think a half-sentence giving the Roman context in Britain would help here. Similarly, "until around A.D. 409" might be better with context, e.g. "until around A.D. 409, when the Roman occupation of Britain came to an end".
•  DoneSomerset held back the Saxon invasion for over a century: which century? Maybe start this paragraph with "After the Romans left, Britain was invaded by Anglo-Saxon peoples, who had established control over much of what is now England by A.D. 600. The native British held back Saxon advance in the southwest for some time longer, but by the early eighth century King Ine of Wessex had pushed the boundaries of the West Saxon kingdom far enough west to include Somerset." If you want to use something like that I can give you sources if you need them.

More tomorrow if I have time. Mike Christie (talk) 05:00, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Response Thanks Mike - I've adopted & incorporated all of your suggestions, anything further welcomed.— Rod ^talk 17:08, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the good work on fixing these. I've supported on the FAC page, with a couple of minor additional notes. Good luck with this one. Mike Christie (talk) 04:07, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

The article on Somersetshire seems to be another entry about the same region. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.207.8.4 (talk) 16:13, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Toponymy

I have two quentions:

1. Does the alternative of Seo-mere-saetan refers directly to the origin of "Somerset", or directly to the origin of "Somerton" and indirectly to the origin of "Somerset"?
2. What does the expression "settlers by the sea lakes" mean? Is it that they were inhabitants of lakes that were near the sea? I'm Argentinian and I may have some problems to understand a couple of things, that's why I'm asking these things. Thanks :) Pabletex (talk) 00:40, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I can't really comment on question 1, I think it will need more information from the original source, but my guess is that it refers more to the people living in the area at large. The Somerset Levels are close to sea level, and prone to flooding from both sea and river. Its hard to say whether we are talking lakes surrounded by land, or islands surrounded by water. It probably changed seasonally. The land has since been much altered by peat extraction, and by drainage. See also Glastonbury Lake Village,Meare. Derek Andrews (talk) 01:47, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

So the expression "settlers by the sea lakes" refers to the people that lived near lakes that were near the sea level, isn't it? --Pabletex (talk) 15:47, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Something like that:) You have to remember that this is a translation of an archaic language. It is probably a very literal translation, word-by-word, that may have made more sense then than it does now. Derek Andrews (talk) 16:39, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

One author [F.M. Stenton (1970). Anglo-Saxon England (Oxford History of England) (3rd Ed.)] makes a comparison between what we now know as Somerset and Dorset. He said that neither Somerset nor Dorset existed as counties in Anglo-Saxon England, but (Somerset) people looked to leadership from Somerton; whereas (Dorset) people looked to Dorchester for leadership. So it appears to be a statement about the origin of the county name "Somerset" (and "Dorset").Pyrotec (talk) 16:47, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Cheddar man

This article says that a "complete skeleton, known as Cheddar man, dates from 9000 BC", while the article about it says that "the remains date to approximately 7150 BC". Does anyone know which is right? Pabletex (talk) 18:23, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I changed it to 7150BC. All the references I could find online talk about 9000 years ago, which I suspect got converted to 9000BC. There is a distinct lack of reliable, original references for this though, so if anyone can find any, please add them.Derek Andrews (talk) 19:54, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I seem to remember the work was done as part of a TV programme - Meet the Ancestors - by Julian Richards so the only references may be the web and newspaper articles.Pyrotec (talk) 20:23, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I think that was the DNA research. Quite a bit about that, but I was looking for the radio carbon dating. That first paragraph in Human occupation is totally unreferenced.Derek Andrews (talk) 22:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Somersæte's meaning

The French article about Somerset says that the word Somersæte means "country of all summer people" (« pays de tous des gens d'été »); The Spanish article says that it means "the land of summer people" (« la tierra de la gente del verano »). However, the English article says that « Sumorsæte, which is short for Sumortūnsæte, » means « "the people living at or dependent upon Sumortūn", » whereas Sumortūn « may mean "summer settlement", a farmstead occupied during the summer but abandoned in the winter. » Should I think the information I found at French ans Spanish Wikipedias are somewhat wrong? --Pabletex (talk) 01:56, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

In short NO! The concept of a land used in the summer, in the Anglo-Saxon period, is common to all three languages. The English article has more detail.Pyrotec (talk) 17:37, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Battle of Sedgemoor

This article says that the Battle of Sedgemoor was the last one to be fought on English soil. However, I've found different information in the article about that conflict:

The battle of Sedgemoor is often referred to as the last battle fought on English soil, but this is incorrect: the Battle of Preston in Lancashire was fought on 14 November 1715, during the First Jacobite Rebellion, and the Second Jacobite Rebellion saw a minor engagement at Clifton Moor near Penrith in Cumbria on 18 December 1745. A more accurate statement would be that Sedgemoor is the last pitched battle fought on English soil. Pabletex (talk) 19:17, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Be boldDerek Andrews (talk) 22:25, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

It may still be the last battle fought on English soil, when England is regarded as a separate country. The Union of the Crowns hand already taken place, but not the Act of Union 1707. The 1715 and 1745 battles took place, in England, on British soil. In Somerset, The Battle of Sedgemoor is regarded as last one to be fought on English soil.Pyrotec (talk) 10:40, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Pabletex - you can't use ambiguous language like 'one of the last', which we term a Weasel word. Pyrotec - if I understand your argument correctly, it is that there was no longer a legal a entity England, therefore it couldn't lay claim to the soil? I have changed it to 'in England' to define the geographic area. I have added the 'pitched battle' link because I consider this more relevant. If my edit is reverted, I believe it should read something like 'the last battle fought in England before union with Scotland' so that there can be no misunderstanding of the reason for the claim.Derek Andrews (talk) 15:31, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Celtic toponymy

Who are we in the following sentence?

A few hill names include Celtic elements, for example a charter of 682 concerning Creechborough Hill defines it as "the hill the British call Cructan and we call Crychbeorh". Pabletex (talk) 22:42, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

The charter is probably S 237 which was granted by Centwine who claimed to be king of the Saxons - probably just the West Saxons. There are conflicting views on the authenticity of this charter, but if accurate, "we" would be the West Saxons in particular and the Anglo-Saxons in general. The "British" were probably what we now call Welsh. Rjm at sleepers (talk) 09:26, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Bombs and incendiaries

The Chew Magna decoy town was hit by half-a-dozen bombs on 2 December 1940, and over a thousand incendiaries on 3 January 1941.

Are bombs and incendiaries the same? If not, could someone explain me which is the difference between them? --Pabletex (talk) 23:34, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Incendiary device is defined earlier in the section. Derek Andrews (talk) 09:24, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Incendiary is to cause damage by fire; bombs generally cause damage as a result of explosion.Pyrotec (talk) 18:54, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Somerset Levels

The Levels are divided into two by the Polden Hills, with the catchment areas of the River Parrett and Axe-Brue on either side.

Does that sentence mean that the catchment area of the River Parrett includes lands to both sides of the hills and the same with the Axe-Brue, or does it mean that lands in one side are part of Parrett's catchment area and lands in the other side belongs to the Axe-Brue's one? --Pabletex (talk) 17:40, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Is it clearer now? Derek Andrews (talk) 18:02, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, thanks :) --Pabletex (talk) 23:02, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Climate

What does this sentence mean?:

The south-west of England has a favoured location with respect to the Azores high pressure when it extends its influence north-eastwards towards the UK, particularly in summer.

I don't know very much about high pressure and climate, so try to use an easy vocabulary. Thanks :) --Pabletex (talk) 19:42, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I added a more relevant link. Derek Andrews (talk) 12:30, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

ROF Bridgwater

The article says, in the economy section, that it closed in July 2008. At least the year must be wrong. --Pabletex (talk) 00:59, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

It does not say that. It says that the site is due to close in July 2008.Pyrotec (talk) 07:24, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Thales Optics

What is Thales Optics? The economy section mentions it a couple of times but it doesn't say what kind of company it is or any other relevant information about its activities, and there isn't any specific article about it. --Pabletex (talk) 01:22, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

The article mentions a company called Avimo which later became Thales Optics, but no Wikipedia articles appear to exist about these two companies, and it mentions a separate company called Thales Underwater Systems, which does have an article. Thales Optics and Thales Underwater Systems are separate companies, but are both part of the Thales Group. When (if) a Wikipedia article appears about Avimo, or Thales Optics, then the appropriate links can be added. There is a article about Thales Optronics, which does mention Thales Optics, but it does not seem appropriate to link Avimo / Thales Optics to Thales Optronics.Pyrotec (talk) 11:35, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Which derelict?

Until the 1960s, Puriton had Blue Lias stone quarries, as did several other Polden Villages. Its quarries also supplied a cement factory at Dunball, adjacent to the King's Sedgemoor Drain. Its derelict, early 20th-century remains were removed when the M5 motorway was constructed in the mid-1970s.

Did this derelict belong to the quarry at Puriton or to cement factory at Dunball? --Pabletex (talk) 20:15, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Mendip Rail

Foster Yeoman is Europe's large supplier of limestone aggregates, with quarries at Merehead Quarry. It has a dedicated railway operation, Mendip Rail, which is used to transport aggregates by rail from a group of Mendip quarries.

Does it mean that Mendip Rail is a railway company belonging to Foster Yeoman? --Pabletex (talk) 20:43, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Why not look at Mendip Rail?Pyrotec (talk) 23:26, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Black minority

There is a contradiction about the percentage that the black minority ethnic group represents:

Somerset Compared
UK Census 2001	Somerset C.C.	North Somerset UA	BANES UA	South West England	England
Black	0.2%	0.9%	0.5%	0.4%	2.3%

The black minority ethnic proportion of the total population is 2.9% in Somerset. --Pabletex (talk) 22:43, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

The reference cited Devon & Somerset Fire & Rescue Service states "The Black Minority Ethnic population of the total population is 1.2% in Devon and 2.9% in Somerset." I suspect this is referring to not just black but including other ethnic minorities.— Rod ^talk 07:47, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Transport

I need some help with this sentence:

A planned 7.25-mile (12 km) branch to Midford was never built, but in 1815 a tramway was laid along its towing path.

Does it mean that the planned branch and the tramway had the same route? --Pabletex (talk) 04:41, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes see Somerset Coal Canal for more detail.— Rod ^talk 07:48, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Coat of arms

Could anyone upload the image of the coat of arms to Commons? Thanks. Pabletex (talk) 14:34, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Cultivation of willow for basketry

In the third paragraph of the introduction, it is mentioned the cultivation of willow for basketry. However, this is not specified in the section about economy or in Economy of Somerset. I have not found any other article that talks about the cultivation of willow, and I think it would be useful to provide a reference at the end of the sentece I have been talking about, in the introduction. Even if there are no references, I would apreciate that someone indicates me any article --maybe one about a town or a region in Somerset-- in which this topic is also mentioned. --201.252.214.1 (talk) 00:08, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Woops; thanks we will have to correct that omission. Try this link for coffins [1]; and these links for baskets [2] [3] [4] [5] . There are a lot more on Google - but you can do that search yourself.Pyrotec (talk) 17:04, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I've added a sentence with a link to Willows and Wetlands visitor centre but haven't supported it with a ref.— Rod ^talk 20:56, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

You were very quick of the mark Rod, I noticed that you had partially fixed the problem even before I replied above. However, having just checked, the topic is covered in Somerset Levels.Pyrotec (talk) 09:07, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for reminding me about that. I've now added a paragraph based on that & hope that meets the request.— Rod ^talk 09:53, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Joseph of Arimathea

Is Joseph of Arimathea's visit just a legend or is it proved? 200.117.30.134 (talk) 00:20, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
It's my recollection that at Glastonbury Abbey, they cite deeds to Somerset tin (or other minerals?) mines in support of this. I don't think there is any proof of his travel per se, just middle eastern interests in the area dating to the era -- possibly even listings of a Joseph of Arimathea as holding these interests. I will ask a friend of mine who works at the abbey museum to get the precise quotes.Celia Kozlowski (talk) 06:18, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Population in 1901

There is a contradiction between the first sentence of the section about demography and the chart:

The population in 1901 was 508,256.

Population since 1801
Year	1801	1851	1901	1911	1921	1931	1941	1951	1961	1971	1981	1991	2001
Somerset CC area	187,266	276,684	277,563	280,215	282,411	284,740	305,244	327,505	355,292	385,698	417,450	468,395	498,093
BANES	57,188	96,992	107,637	113,732	113,351	112,972	123,185	134,346	144,950	156,421	154,083	164,737	169,045
North Somerset	16,670	33,774	60,066	68,410	75,276	82,833	91,967	102,119	119,509	139,924	160,353	179,865	188,556
Total	261,124	407,450	445,266	462,357	471,038	479,758	520,396	563,970	619,751	682,043	731,886	812,997	855,694

200.117.30.134 (talk) 02:18, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Well spotted - this shows the difficulties of using a variety of sources. The 508,256 figure comes from the Encyclopedia Britanica 1911 edition & the table from Vision of Britain. This could lead to a discussion of Reliable sources however I suspect that this is due to boundary changes as discussed in the lede paragraph (and the EB figure probably includes some of the areas WP defines as being in Bristol). I have removed the first figure as the Vision of Britain figure is aggregated from census data at parish level using the boundaries defined as the "traditional county".— Rod ^talk 08:03, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Population in 2001

The information about the number of inhabitants in 2001 also defers slightly between the text and the chart. 200.117.30.134 (talk) 17:59, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

This is a discrepancy between 2 (normally reliable) sources which should be working from the same raw data - it may be a difference in "rounding". If you compare ref 75 (ONS) & ref 80 (Vision of Britain) for BANES you will see the difference - the same applies to ref 76 (ONS) & ref 81 (Vision of Britain) for North Somerset. I would welcome comments on how to resolve this one?— Rod ^talk 07:54, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I've not done any extensive checking myself, but is the difference always in the direction the text suggests it might sometimes be on the Vision of Britain site (the stuff above the tables)? If so, the errors (perhaps better described as discrepancies) they say may have arisen might explain them. If not, then obviously something else. If this does explain it, then a judicious use of footnotes may avoid any criticisms or editing problems about the figures in the future, though which ones to use as the primary figures in the table might need some thought.  DDStretch  (talk) 09:40, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, the ONS is the primary source for UK census statistics, whereas Vision of Britain is a secondary source. I'd go with the ONS data every time. Fingerpuppet (talk) 09:53, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Exactly my preference too, but I imagine some might say that wikipedia states that secondary sources should be used, which is why I was a bit vague at that point in my previous comment.  DDStretch  (talk) 10:11, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Thomas Hardy's Wessex

In Thomas Hardy's Wessex, Somerset is known as Outer/Nether Wessex. This seems like a notable piece of information to include on this article, but I am unsure as to where to place it. Any suggestions? Neelix (talk) 12:24, 24 June 2008 (UTC)