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St Lawrence Junction station

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Copied from WT:UKT 04:59, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
I came across this. As railway stations are notable, is there any UKT member in a position to pitch in and rescue the article? Mjroots (talk) 18:59, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Where am I supposed to leave comments? It's not in Wikipedia: space, it's in Wikipedia talk: space, so it doesn't have a separate talk page. Anyway. It's misnamed, for a start. Apart from the use of "Station", not "railway station", Butt doesn't list any station named St. Lawrence Junction; the best candidate is St Lawrence (Pegwell Bay), a.k.a. St Lawrence for Pegwell Bay, the latter of which matches the photo in the article draft. This station was opened by the South Eastern Railway in October 1864, and closed on 3 April 1916 (Butt 1995, p. 204). It's shown on Template:Ramsgate and Margate RDT. --Redrose64 (talk) 19:58, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Should that template be redrawn to show the alterations made in 1926, with the new Ramsgate station added in? Mjroots (talk) 07:00, 26 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've been bold and redrawn the template. There is a question over whether or not the was a link from Margate East to the Margate West branch, see the talk page of the template for details. Mjroots (talk) 16:27, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Redrose, just edit the article and make the necessary corrections with refs. The better shape it is in, the more likely it is to go live. Mjroots (talk) 20:29, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The article is now awaiting a review. As far as I can tell, any editor in good standing can move the article to mainspace. Is St Lawrence railway station a good title? Mjroots (talk) 09:33, 27 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (UK stations)#Official names, we go with last official name suffixed "railway station", and "if there is any doubt about what the official name is, the name given on the station platforms should be used". The sources are at variance; Butt gives two names (see above); Mitchell & Smith apparently give a third, so there is doubt. Careful examination of the photo in the infobox shows St Lawrence for Pegwell Bay, so St Lawrence for Pegwell Bay railway station is my preference. --Redrose64 (talk) 14:42, 27 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Worth noting that there's already a St. Lawrence railway station. I would prefer Redrose's suggestion if this accords with the photos in Mitchell & Smith. Lamberhurst (talk) 15:03, 27 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy with Redrose64's suggestion too. A hatnote can be used on the IoW station to avoid confusion once the article is live. Mjroots (talk) 15:26, 27 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Just one question, where does Tivoli, Margate come from? If "Margate" has to be in the title, should it not be Tivoli (Margate)? Lamberhurst (talk) 18:24, 27 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Routebox on Ramsgate Town railway station confirmed by Butt p.231 --Redrose64 (talk) 19:08, 27 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oops, I had just changed the routebox to show the next station as Margate Sands (reverted having seen this). Does that mean that there was a station between Margate Sands and St Lawrence for Pegwell Bay? If so, then the routemap needs correcting. Mjroots (talk) 07:03, 28 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Butt says "Tivoli, Margate SE / OP 1 December 1846; CL c.1872 [Also known as Hall by the Sea]". Butt's use of "SE", not "LCD", plus the word "Margate" puts the station firmly on the Margate Sands branch, that being the only SER route to Margate. I shall check my other books when off hols (yes! I take Butt on holiday with me!) - I've added a possible list at Talk:St Lawrence for Pegwell Bay railway station#Sources for construction of route. I ought also to get that Mitchell & Smith book - a trip to Ian Allan at Waterloo seems my best bet. --Redrose64 (talk) 10:33, 28 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sources for construction of route

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I have some potential sources for the construction of the main line to Ramsgate; the Margate branch; and the next station towards Margate, i.e. Tivoli, Margate.

  • Butt, R.V.J. (1995). The Directory of Railway Stations. Yeovil: Patrick Stephens Ltd. pp. 155, 231. ISBN 1 85260 508 1. R508.
  • Knight, Andrew (1986). The Railways of South East England. Shepperton: Ian Allan. ISBN 0 7110 1556 2.
  • McCarthy, Colin; McCarthy, David (2007). Waller, Peter (ed.). Railways of Britain: Kent and Sussex. Hersham: Ian Allan. ISBN 978 0 7110 3222 4. 0710/C1. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
  • White, H.P. (1992) [1961]. Thomas, David St John; Patmore, J. Allan (eds.). Volume 2: Southern England. A Regional History of the Railways of Great Britain (5th ed.). Nairn: David St John Thomas. ISBN 0 946537 77 1.

--Redrose64 (talk) 10:30, 28 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Tivoli, Margate

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I think this might be another mistake by Butt. White (1987) states that "a temporary wooden station was used until the permanent station was ready in 1858 [Margate Sands?]. Platforms were provided to serve the Tivoli Pleasure Gardens where the Southern's goods station later stood" (p. 112). Mitchell & Smith (1991) explain that "Hall by the Sea" (which Butt gives as Tivoli's alternative name) was the LCDR station built as the terminus for local trains from Ramsgate; it never officially opened as parliamentary permission was not given. Lamberhurst (talk) 23:01, 29 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And Knight (1986) doesn't mention a station at Tivoli at all, although apparently there was a station betweeen St Lawrence and Minster, Ebbsfleet and Cliffend Halt, which isn't mentioned on the present routebox. Alzarian16 (talk) 18:48, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
McCarthy & McCarthy (previous section) show "Tivoli Margate" on map 8, section B2, between the St Lawrence triangle and the junction of the link to the LCDR at Margate. On p. 128 it's listed as opened 1 December 1946, closed to passengers circa 1872. The station btwn St Lawrence and Minster is Ebbsfleet and Cliffsend Halt (op May 1908; cl 1 April 1933). --Redrose64 (talk) 21:14, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Croughton, Kidner & Young (1982) also refer to "Tivoli" (p. 134) at TR353699 and give the closure date as 1876 (the opening date is unknown). However, I think it's clear that this was an intermediate station on the Margate line and the routebox should therefore show all three possibilities, i.e. Margate Sands, Ramsgate Town and Tivoli. Lamberhurst (talk) 21:24, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If Tivoli was an intermediate station, the the routebox merely needs Margate Sands changing to Tivoli. Question is, if there was a link from between Margate East and Margate West to the Margate Sands line, where did it come in, before or after Tivoli? Mjroots (talk) 21:36, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
See my post of 21:14, 30 August 2011 above: north of Tivoli. --Redrose64 (talk) 21:41, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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