Talk:Stadtbahn

Article Needs Copyediting

While I logged a few hours on cleanup, this article still needs much work. I have only a rudimentary knowledge of German, and I would prefer not to guess at the meaning of what I assume are literally-translated figures of speech for fear of changing the intended content. Examples:

• Under "1980s: 'Renaissance' of the Tramway" -
  • -"As the conventional tramways had been regarded by many decision-makers as overcome systems for several decades,..." (italics mine)
  • -"Since this time, the "Stadtbahn" term faces the - partially even modish - expansion..." (italics mine)

I will continue to clean up this article; please post if similarly disposed. --Mythman87 20:57, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I have gone through the first several sections and made a number of changes to the flow of the text, without attempting any gross restructuring. This article still needs work from the 1990s on, and I do not have time at the moment. I think it could also do with some high-level editing: it seems to be more of a history of the usage of the word "Stadtbahn", and requires a good bit of scanning to find out what the Stadtbahn currently *is*.

Regarding Mythman87's comments: I think that "overcome systems" has a fairly obvious English meaning as well, and I have put the slightly more idiomatic version in place. I am not clear what "partially even moddish" is intended to mean, literally, but it appears to be an indication that it is a term of fashion, rather than a formal definition. Said connation has been edited in.

I intend to do a bit more work on this article when I have more time.

-- Kaosfere 21:35, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the article needs much work - in my view, some heavy copyediting - in particular to make it read far less like an (uncertain) translation. I have applied this to one section (The Tram logo) to indicate the kind of bold editing I think is needed. I will not be so bold, however, as to do any more for the moment before waiting to see if there are any adverse reactions! -- Picapica 13:01, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I strongly suspect that the correct English meaning of "overcome systems" may not be the obvious one. I would like to have the original German text (where is it?) to look at, but I see a potential connection with the Swedish word överspelad, which means "no longer relevant or of interest." I think "outmoded" may be a better translation and would seem to fit the context better. But as I say, I can't be at all sure of this without seeing the original German text and checking a dictionary for confirmation. --Tkynerd 19:50, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

proofread

Made a number of spelling and grammar changes.

Biggest change was with "signet" to "logo". I think this is the best translation. Perhaps I could have used "emblem", but as it is used as an advertising and marketing symbol, I felt logo fit better. In American English, signet does mean about the same thing, but is very rarely used, and would not usually be used in a marketing or advertising context. If you can find a better word, or feel that maintaining the original article translation closely is more important, feel free to change it.

I will check back sometime later for another pass and see what things I have missed. Atom 02:59, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I just did a fair amount of linguistic cleanup myself. Please review and edit as appropriate. (Specifically, Picapica, your work on "The Tram logo" appears to be EngEng, while mine is USEng; you may wish to make changes there, if any are needed. I don't care which variant of English we use in this article.) Another tip: In the third paragraph of "Public perception," I changed the word "by" to "alongside," but I'm not 100% sure that's what was intended. And the following sentence just makes my brain hurt. --Tkynerd 20:14, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

German sources on the term

A very good and illustrative source for this complex history/eveolution of the Stadtbahn term can be find here, written in German:

• Hintzen Matthias. Was ist eine "Stadtbahn"? Der Versuch einer begrifflichen Bestimmung. - published in Straßenbahn Magazin 3/96 (issue 101, 27th year), page 68 to 73. ISSN 0340-7071, EAN 4394091724003.

The magazine's target group are tramway amtauers and it is written in a very precise way, so that the evidence should come out clear, but the reader should be capable oft more than a basic language lavel. The current version of this Wikipedia lemma is derrived from the article, mainly through updates. Scientific descriptive-normativ approaches can be found in:

• Verband Deutscher Verkehrsbetriebe[1]. Das Fachwort im Verkehr. ISBN 978-3870947323
• Forschungsgesellschaft für Straßen- und Verkehrwesen[2]. Begriffsbestimmungen - Teil: Verkehrsplanung, Straßenentwurf und Straßenbetrieb. FGSV-Nr. 220.

Whoever is interested enough might check the lemma against this sources. Me, I haven't enough time, but so far the article is already very correct in ways of approaching to what the Stadtbahn term means, is used to and is (not) percepted and so on. --141.30.207.240 (talk) 16:32, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I would like to add, that this English article goes much more systematically (because alongside the historic evolution of the term) through the spectrum of use and possible definitions of what a Stadtbahn is than the one in the German Wikipedia does ... --141.30.207.240 (talk) 16:36, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Rewriting of 1980s Section Needed

The 1980s section of this article (and possibly the 1990s and 2000s sections, as well) should probably be rewritten - I've added some 'tags' to that section to indicate my concerns.

But if the term "Stadtbahn" is most analogous to the North American term "light rail", then the criteria that most differentiates "Stadtbahn"/"light rail" from "Straßenbahn"/"streetcar"/"tram" is operating in exclusive rights-of-way for the former and street-running (in car traffic) for the latter. This may or may not involve tunnels or elevated sections, but certainly doesn't require either.

The way the 1980s section of the article is written, though, is written from a point-of-view that a lack of tunnels and/or elevated sections means "no Stadtbahn" and "same as streetcar/Straßenbahn". That is clearly not the case - as long as the vast majority of the system is in exclusive rights-of-way, then it qualifies as "light rail", and thus as "Stadtbahn". It almost seems as the author of that section was confusing "Premetro" (as the French use the term) and "Stadtbahn".

I suggest that section be rewritten. If no one does it in the near future, I may give it a shot when I get the chance (which likely won't be soon...). --IJBall (talk) 03:10, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Conflating Stadbahn, Premetro and Light Rail...

The lead section currently cites two references, from the early 1970s, that speak about German systems, say they are called "light rail" or "premetro" -- but do not explicitly use the term "Stadtbahn". Even if we think the authors of those news reports were talking about German Stadtbahn systems, I think this sails close to a lapse from WP:SYNTH, and so I placed a {{failed verification}} tag. Geo Swan (talk) 16:34, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

1. Ian Yearsley (1972-12-21). "Trams are coming back". New Scientist. Retrieved 2014-01-14. But West Germany, like other nations, experienced a phenomenal growth in private car ownership. Traffic congestion led to plans for underground railways. But instead of building the entire expensive systems immediately, the Germans hit on the idea of building only the city centre tunnels at first. Intended in the long run to be extended to full undergrounds, in the short term they could be used by trams which would continue to run on the surface outside city centres. The idea spread to other European countries, notably Belgium, where it became know as pre-metro. Today Brussels, Frankfurt, Stuttgart and many other cities are filling their central business districts with construction sites to move the trains underground.
2. John Hoyle. "Letters to the editor -- The tram is the answer". Sydney Morning Herald. Retrieved 13 January 2014. Cities such as Frankfurt and Cologne in West Germany have further developed their tramway system by introducing a concept known as "premetro." In this system trams or light rail vehicles make extensive use of tunnels, reserve track and by utilizing folding steps these vehicles can operate through high or low stopping places.

That is like saying Wikipedia's page on Joan of Arc is WP:SYNTH because the sources don't mention the woman's actual French name (Jean d'Arc). The word premetro is FRENCH! The term Stadtbahn is GERMAN!! And last time I checked, publications in one language are not obliged to use a foreign language term when referring about something new or foreign. —Loginnigol (talk) 21:33, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Not to weigh too heavily into an on-going discussion here, but just having just looked at the first reference, it seems clear to me that the Germans didn't refer to these systems as "Pre-metros" - just the Belgians did. I think it would be safer to remove any mention of "Premetro" from this article (or, at best, leave a single Wikilink to it, somewhere). --IJBall (talk) 22:34, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

• User:Loginnigol, I don't understand your Joan of Arc metaphor.

The word premetro is FRENCH? Do you have a source for that? It complies with the way English neologisms are created. How do you know the term wasn't first used in an English document?

If premetro and Stadtbahn are synonyms then do we really need two articles for them? Geo Swan (talk) 00:08, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

A couple of things:

1) How about reading sources already provided before rushing to type "do you have a source"?(which in this case explicitly state who named what premetro and when (Belgians in the 70s)

2) As for the Stadtbahn article, well that one is about the German premetro. So a premetro article and a German premetro article can perfectly coexist, just as a metro article and a Paris metro article perfectly can.

3) The English neologisms you were talking about are actually of French origin and still in use in that other language. But more importantly, that other language happens to be the one spoken in the city that first explicitly named its network "premetro". —Loginnigol (talk) 01:13, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

The issue here, as I see it, is that "Stadtbahn" and "Premetro" are not synonymous terms in modern contexts - "Stadtbahn" and "Light rail" are the synonymous terms. Yes, a number of Stadtbahns did start with the idea that they'd be converted to full U-Bahns later on (which is very "Premetro-y", and many Stadtbahns essentially became what I guess were referred to as "Semi-Metros" in the 1970s). But, in modern contexts, as opposed to the original 1970s ones, "Stadtbahn" is basically the German term for "Light rail". --IJBall (talk) 00:57, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

I think this is the main point why this article exists as a standalone, and not just as a part of Premetro or Light rail, most Stadtbahnen started as a Tram, became a kind of Premetro, and now resemble a Light rail system, which brings some unique features and problems not seen in Tram, Light rail or Premetro. Jan Lukas 22 (talk) 16:26, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

One other point: I'm not convinced that the author of the Letter to the Editor in Reference #2 isn't misusing the term "Pre-metro" - I think the author actually meant the term "Semi-metro" in the context used... --IJBall (talk) 01:12, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

What is a Stadtbahn?

I just read the lead section and didn't understand anything about what the Stadtbahn actually is. It says that "A Staddtbahn are[sic] types of rail transport". Then it talks about some history. In fact, I wasn't able to find this information in the entire article, not just the lead. Is it possible to add a summary that describes the concept to the lead section, especially for readers not familiar with German railway terminology? (just some feedback, I'll gladly help but I don't know much about the topic). Thanks, Ynhockey ^(Talk) 10:12, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

In my opinion the sentence

"Most Stadtbahn systems are now a mixture of tramway-like operations in suburban and peripheral areas and a more metro-like mode of operation in city centres, with underground stations." explains it well enough, but should be part of the first paragraph. Jan Lukas 22 (talk) 23:53, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

@Ynhockey I have found this in de.wikipedia.org

"Die Stadtbahn ist ein schienengebundenes und elektrisch angetriebenes Transportsystem des öffentlichen Personennahverkehrs in Metropol- und städtischen Regionen. International wird sie meist als Light rail, Métro léger oder Tren ligero bezeichnet. Der Begriff wird für das Gesamtsystem, eine Linie und umgangssprachlich auch für das einzelne Fahrzeug verwendet."

I conclude, technically you cannot distinguish a german stadtbahn from urban rail transport in surrounding countries.

There is no need for the lemma stadtbahn.

Why not simply say "Stadtbahn is the german expression for a light rail system or a single light rail train"?

Even harder would be the identification of topical german types of urban rail transport systems.

Just my present view - looking forward to more views.--4eMotion (talk) 12:28, 21 October 2022 (UTC)