Talk:Sukavich Rangsitpol/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

LGBT Rights

Sukavich was also criticised for keeping in force a ban on "gender/sex deviant" and "wrong-gendered" (i.e. homosexual and transsexual) students at the Rajabhat teacher training institutes, saying that "homosexuals are no different to drug addicts who need treatment. ... I do not want these people to be role models for children." He retired from the ministerial post in August 1997, being replaced by his intra-party rival Chingchai Mongcoltam, who lifted the anti-gay ban.[11]

Peter A. Jackson (2002). Russell H. K. Heng (ed.). Offending Images: Gender Sexual Minorities, and State Control of the Media in Thailand. Media Fortunes, Changing Times: ASEAN States in Transition. Institute of Southeast Asian Studies. pp. 216–217.

The Contributor who asked Sukavich Rangsitpol to be locked and is the one who created the article with the unreliable information.

I don’t know why ,he thinks the book that used newspapers as sources is more reliable than UNECO recorded about Sukavich Rangsitpol.

We have never had any LGBT ban in anything.Please asked anyone who is Thai if they have heard what is written here. 171.97.195.199 (talk) 11:53, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

History of Page

The history of the can read at special contributionYosakrai (talk) 14:35, 13 June 2019 (UTC) 12:49, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

LGBT Rights Issues

Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard

UNESCO Sources

"Asia-Pacific Regional Consultation on Adult Education, Jomtien, Thailand, 16-18 September 1996: His Excellency Sukavich Rangsitpol Speech page53-56". Unesdoc.unesco.org. Retrieved 6June 2019. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)

* I strongly believe that, as a citizen of the world, any person has the right to learn

• and should be entitled to have access to education according to their competency and needs.
• It is essential that the government provide educational services that respond to the people’s needs.
• Education, therefore, has to be organized in such a way that people from all walks of life can participate in educational activities at levels and times of their preference.
• With regard to the learning society, as I mentioned earlier, optimistically, people from all walks of life should be able to have equal access to education according to their needs and potentials.
• All sort of boundaries, be their gender, age, socio-economic status, physical or mental disabilities have to be eliminated.

The original story

On 26 December 1996, in a report in the Bangkok Post, the Rajabat Institute Council, the collective governing body of all of Thailand's colleges, declared that it would bar homosexuals from enrolling in any of its teacher training schools, the idea of Deputy Education Minister Suraporn Danaitangtrakul.[41] The announcement was strongly criticised by human rights groups and many others, who urged the repeal of the policy. On 25 January 1997, Danaitangtrakul proposed that the Institute set new criteria to bar people with "improper personalities", but not specific groups such as homosexuals.

https://www.outrightinternational.org/content/thailand-gays-and-lesbians-banned-enrolling-teacher-training-schools

Please Remove The Setence that base on the following sources

The deputy minister idea has never been approved because it was against minister speech from UNESCO recorded. Wikipedia:Potentially unreliable sources

Peter A. Jackson (2002). Russell H. K. Heng (ed.). Offending Images: Gender Sexual Minorities, and State Control of the Media in Thailand. Media Fortunes, Changing Times: ASEAN States in Transition. Institute of Southeast Asian Studies. pp. 216–217.2405:9800:BC11:BD0D:C18A:CBE2:68F1:EB67 (talk) 06:58, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

LGBT Rights Again

Looking at the material, it seems to be well-sourced (relevant book pages here), and got coverage in the Bangkok Post (the leading Thai English-language newspaper) at the time. The link provided above to a UNESCO speech has several problems. First, it's a primary source. Second, we can't say "because he said gender shouldn't be a boundary, he wouldn't support a policy deemed homophobic." That's OR. Finally, looking at the substance of the issue, the statement from the speech isn't actually entirely incompatible, since the speech was talking about gender being a barrier, while the ban was regarding homosexual and transgender students.

So, I don't see any BLP issue with including the material. The question I have is a WP:UNDUE issue. Honestly, I'm not nearly familiar enough with Thai politics over the past thirty years to have a good read on whether this is a significant part of his notability, or just a footnote. BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 23:12, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE in a WP:BLP

This here (comment here from talk page):Yosakrai (talk) 13:54, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Education Reform

In 1995, ,H.E.Sukavich Rangsitpol,Minister of Education of Thailand, launched the current education reform. The main aim of education reform is to enhance the quality of education from 1995 until educational excellence is achieved by the 2007.

The goal of the education reform is to realize the potential of Thai people to develop themselves for a better quality of life and to develop the nation for a peaceful co-existence in the global community.

The objective of education reform is to create learning individual ,organizations and society. An educated person or the authentic learning outcome should possess the following ability and characteristics which are based on Thai cultural heritage and appropriate level of education:good physical and mental health,critical thinking, intellectual inquisitiveness ,professionalism, sense of responsibility, honesty,self-sacrifice,perseverance,team spirit,adherence to democracy,and love for King,country and religion.Yosakrai (talk) 14:35, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

References

Sukavich Rangsitpol 2018 by Teacher information

Archive Document02:35, 15 June 2019 (UTC)Yosakrai (talk) 02:35, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

Sukavich Rangsitpol Biography document Teacher's day past 5 Oct 2018

The Minister of Education launched a series of education reforms in 1995. The aim was to enhance the quality of education from 1995 to achieve educational excellence by 2007. On September 16, 1996, Education Minister Sukavich Rangsitpol gave his views on the issue:

“I strongly believe that, as a citizen of the world, any person has the right to learn and should be entitled to have access to education according to their competency and needs. It is essential that the government provide educational services that respond to the people’s needs. Education, therefore, has to be organized in such a way that people from all walks of life can participate in educational activities at levels and times of their preference.

“All sort of boundaries, be their gender, age, socio-economic status, physical or mental disabilities have to be eliminated. To achieve this, we have to distinctively promote continuing and lifelong education, the form of education which is responsive to individual needs and preferences. With educational facilities and a variety of educational programs available, people can make use of the learning center as a place to acquire technical skills or knowledge adaptive to their work and daily life activities.”

'According to UNESCO, Thailand education reform has led to the following results:'

The educational budget increased from 133 billion baht in 1996 to 163 billion baht in 1997 (22.5 percent increase). Since 1996, first grade students have learned English and computer literacy. The professional advance from teacher leve1 6 to teacher leve1 7 without having to submit academic work for consideration was approved by the Thai government. There has been drawn up education policy to raise the standards of education from pre-primary to tertiary education. Free 12 years education for all children provided by the government. The free 12 year education was in the 1997 Constitution of Thailand and was the first time the nation had given access to education for all citizens. The Education Reform Project involved about 20,000 schools. Yosakrai (talk) 02:34, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

References

Teacher Reform

Extended content

Teachers' Learning in a Changing World H.E. Mr Sukavich Rangsitpol Minister of Education, Thailand The old saying, "Teachers will teach the way they have been taught" is very much in evidence in the Thai educational system. Hence, introducing change to educational practices has to start with teachers' learning. When the learning process of teachers and teacher training has been changed, it is assured that the new learning process will be replicated in classrooms. If teacher education is loaded with lecturing, it is very difficult to introduce other kinds of teaching to school learning. If teachers' learning emphasizes memorization or rote learning, it is unlikely that school learning will include high-order thinking. Therefore, every educational reform has to begin with teachers' learning, otherwise classroom learning will not be changed and new learning outcomes will not be achieved. Problems and Needs When "The New Math" was introduced to Thai education in the 1970s, it was presented as a new content. It was intended that the new math would make the subject more understandable, and more fun to learn. A good understanding would encourage further learning rather than create a dislike for the subject matter. It was anticipated that if the whole programme succeeded, students should be more competent in numerical operation and more inclined to study science and engineering. With an adequate manpower in science and engineering, the nation's industrial development would prosper. Teachers were introduced to the programme in a training session. Their role was to carry out the actual teaching of the new subject. They learned about the new subject through traditional practices, starting with theory, rules and example problems. They learned how to find answers to the problem according to some specific paradigm and then used the paradigm to solve similar problems in exercises. Many teachers felt uncertain about the concepts. They were uncommitted and proceeded to present the material as a deliverer without any in-depth understanding. Eventually, nothing was changed except that there was more content to be covered. The modern math is only one example of many unsuccessful reforms in teaching-learning. In most educational reforms, methods of teaching have not been included in the discussion. More often than not, the topic of learning methods is not only ignored, it is explicitly ridiculed by most reformers who are aiming at a more modern knowledge. It is often said too that to reform learning methods is time-wasting. Tea hers also say that teaching for learning how-to-learn-learn will consume a lot of time. It will be difficult to cover all the content specified by the curriculum if learning uses up too much time on hands-on activities. The less-is-more alternative has not been considered as a possible solution at all in educational reforms where only expanding will bring about progress and development is more. Now is an appropriate time for educators to come down to the heart of educational matters or the learning methods to achieve the less-is-more alternative in all educational reforms. Teachers need to be trained on how children leran, not only how to solve mathematical problems. They must know how to make learners well understand the New Math and enable them to solve mathematical problems. Moreover, they should be able to help learners to efficiently communicate to other numerical ideas and to make connection with real-life problems in the areas chosen for their eventual career. Training only on subject matter is definitely not going to bring about this expertise. There must be more emphasis on coaching and facilitating techniques. In their normal practices, teachers must see very clearly where each individual learner stands on the learning continuum of that particular development, what problems and difficulties he or she is going to face and what lies ahead on that learning continuum to be walked by the learner. Teachers should be trained to be a master of how to help each and every learn to walk through the learning task. Going through the learning task is a necessary and essential aspect of teacher training but it is not sufficient to make them good and effective teachers. In a world that changes at an exponential rate, members of such world community have to be very proficient in finding reasonable solutions to the problems that they face by themselves. Furthermore, a solution to one problem can not be totally applicable to other problems, however similar. It is said that there are no two problems that are exactly alike. There are many variables intertwined in every problem and components of all the variable involved have to be carefully studied. Forming solutions by studying and synthesizing the relationship among key variables seems to be very much in need. The ability to identify a meaning from observable and obtained data is the core of human characteristics in such changing society. Hence, inductive thinking has to be instilled in every learner for a productive citizenship in the changing world of tomorrow. Teachers as a Model In order to instil inductive thinking in every child, it is imperative to have teachers practising inductive thinking themselves. It is vital that learners have a good model to begin with. It is unfair and unthinkable that teachers should require learners to do what the teachers themselves cannot, let alone to demonstrate. Teacher should teach what they can do and while teaching, they should not simply give out solutions to the learners. Good teaching that nurtures inductive thinking makes the learners walk through the whole process by themselves. At the end, the learners have to access their own thinking to evaluate whether the solution is a rational one. The best way to train teachers in inductive thinking is to make them learners. In a typical training session, the teachers must go through or walk through the following learning tasks. 1. Collecting data; 2. Classifying data; 3. Establishment relationship; 4. Conceptualizing relationship; 5. Creating alternatives; 6. Accessing alternatives; 7. Testing the selected alternative; 8. Restoring the workable alternative as knowledge. The teachers have to do and redo this process of learning until it becomes automatic to them. It should be pointed out that, in order to achieve these learning tasks, various specific and basic skills have to be in evidence. Good data are the product of good observation and listening skills. Creating alternatives requires creative thinking skills. These basic skills have to be applied to real-life problems in order to make a meaningful learning. It is necessary that teachers be training as learners in order to treat students as learners. Once the teacher is the learner, he can be a good model for students as a learner. This practice will undoubtedly lead to a learning individual which is an important ingredient in a learning society, in the ever changing world. Professional Practices The teaching profession has not been too highly regarded of late. One of the reasons is that professional practices were found wanting in the majority of teachers during the past two decades. There has rarely been any extensive attempt to improve teaching methods. Teaching is viewed as doing the same thing over and over again. The teachers see teaching approaches as private preferences or personality traits, rather than strategies to be compared, analysed and then adapted to suit their own styles. Teachers do not seek improvement for they feel that teacher education has already covered every aspect of teaching. It has not occurred to them that there is always something more to learn and learning keeps them fresh, exciting and energized for the learners. In order to make the teaching profession more respectable, teachers have to be learners. They have to treat each new group of students as a different group, fresh and unknown. Teachers often perceive new students as being the same as those in the previous group and apply the same practice to them. If teachers are learners, they will study the new group of students in order to identify their strengths and weaknesses, then teach them accordingly. They will increase their teaching knowledge by collecting proven teaching methods for the new group of students and for each individual student. They will exchange knowledge with their colleagues for the benefit of their students and work collaboratively with their peers and the administration. In assessing learning for professional practices where teachers are learners, one should look for the following evidence. 1. more experiential, inductive, hands-on learning; 2. more active learning; 3. more responsibility transferred to students; 4. more emphasis on high-order thinking; 5. more choices for students; 6. more cooperative, collaborative activities; 7. more responsive teaching in heterogeneously grouped classrooms; 8. more reflective sessions; 9. more varied and cooperative roles for teachers, parents and administrators; 10. more qualitative-anecdotal observation in students' assessment; 11. more enacting and modelling of democratic practices; 12. more inter-disciplinary learning; 13. more challenging goals of learning. It is anticipated that a classroom with these main features will bring about learning how to learn and learning individuals. Teachers who are capable of these practices have to act as learners practising learning rather then coming to class with what they have already known. They have to construct their own knowledge in class in order to model learning how-to-learn and then pass the process on to the learners rather than solutions, facts and theories. These main features also indicate that learning is more child-centred, more experiential, more reflective, more authentic, more holistic, more constructive, more cognitive, more democratic, and, definitely, more challenging. With all of these characteristics, education becomes more developmental. If this is the kind of education we are looking for, it is necessary that teachers have to walk through this learning process and then practise them later on in their teaching. Professionalism can be achieved by teachers if they practise learning in their teaching. Reflective Teachers One of the most important learning outcomes in education is learners' self-esteem. It is most desirable that every learner, at various stages of education, should be able to realize his or her capacity, potentiality and optimum capability in physical, intellectual, social and emotional (moral) developments. An individual who has reached the stage of self-esteem almost always makes a sound and rational decision. He or she always sets a reachable yet challenging goal in his or her endeavour. When the endeavour results in a success, his or her self-concept will increase or widen. Self-confidence will be reinforced and good disciplines will be further developed. On the contrary, if a person always sets an unreachable goal, and ending up in a failure, he or she will be heading toward the stage of despair which is the negative side of personality or spiritual development, and the undesirable outcomes in education. A sense of success is vital to the development of self-concept, self-esteem and personality. It should be pointed out very clearly that the level of success does not always bring about good feelings about learning nor a true self-esteem. A sense of success begins with a sense of belonging. The learner has to realize that he or she is the one who sets the objective, the learning tasks and the stage for success. The learning must belong to the learners and not to the teachers. The "scaffolding" practice that forces every learner to go along a very definite path of learning will create negative feelings about learning. At the end, the learners will be submissive to the teachers. Good disciplinary practices cannot then be achieved. In fostering a sense of success, teachers have to be responsive to the learners and create several self-assessment activities in learning. A reflective teacher always fosters a sense of success. He or she begins his or her teaching by learning about each and every learner. He or she encourages and negotiates with the learners to set a challenging learning objective, and to select an appropriate learning task, through his or her knowledge about the learners' capability and constraints. The reflective teacher makes the learners decide for themselves and ensures that the decision is sound and reasonable. He or she asks a lot of questions for the learners to carry out self-assessment. And at the very end of learning, he or she asks for the learners' feeling and makes them feel proud of their achievement. In intellectual development, the reflective teacher asks how the learners think rather than for the correct answer of the problems. The learners' formation of thought is more important than the solution itself. The reflective teacher ends his or her teaching by asking how the learners can make it better. The reflective teacher is also a learner. He or she always reflects on his or her behaviour by looking at what happens to the learners. Learning about the learners' responses will help the reflective teacher select more effective behaviour for some particular purposes that suits particular learners. The reflective teacher constructs his or her knowledge through the process of observation for data collection and classification, creating a relationship among data and making a generalization on the obtained relationship with new situations for validation. To make teachers more reflective, a series of self-assessment sessions have to be conducted, beginning with an analysis of the learners, or the students. Teachers have to be trained or retrained on how to make their teaching more effective and successful. At the end, a sense of success in teaching has to be reinforced to make the teachers proud of their achievement. It should be seen that reflective teachers are necessary and essential in an education which is geared towards human development. Education in the form of passing on information, facts and specific knowledge does not need reflective teachers. Reflective teachers are very important in a democratic education because the learners' liberty is always respected. In learning it is defined that the learners have to construct knowledge and the learners are growing individuals. Constructive process is a process of development and learning is a process of reconstruction of nature. It will be fair and just to require all teachers to be reflective, only if educational practices specify the empowering of human resources or emphasize that learning is a reconstruction of nature. Otherwise, retraining of teachers to be more reflective will not be cost-effective. Advanced Proposition In presenting this paper, it is anticipated that more views and discussions will be expressed on the following premises: 1. Should we make students' learning and teaching the heart or core of all educational reforms? It is undeniable that management should be reformed. However, the direction of management reform should be toward the above-mentioned features of teaching/learning in order to attain sustainable human resource development. 2. Should we reform our educational system through teachers' learning?Should we use construction of knowledge by the learner as our model for teachers' learning? Is there any other form of teachers' learning that will bring about a learning society in the ever changing world? 3. Should we request SEAMES to coordinate with all Centres/Coordinators to find ways and means to increase teachers' learning in their programmes? Yosakrai (talk) 15:38, 15 June 2019 (UTC) References

Professor Dr.Peter Jackson

In his book that was use as the source he wrote.

It is not clear whether the ban was ever enforced or whether any student was denied enter to Rajabhat institutes. Yosakrai (talk) 14:40, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

The Subject was clear of any wrong doing

If he was clear of any wrong doing,and was replaced as Minister of Education by his political rivals.That means it was political lies.

By the way I accidentally deleted the link from Wikisource and wiki quote,I put it back. Yosakrai (talk) 14:40, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Criticism section

I think the criticism section added by User:Yosakrai with this edit should be removed. To be perfectly candid, it is so badly phrased and formatted that I have a hard time trying to understand what the user wants to tell us. The only paragraph that is in intelligible English sentences was copy-pasted from LGBT rights in Thailand#Education, which in turn is an almost verbatim copy of this source. Moreover, Yosakrai seems to have added his/her own comments without a reference, e.g. "Professor Dr.Rosalind C. MorrisDuke University criticized only the minister .Even though it was the idea of Deputy Education Minister Suraporn Danaitangtrakul." referencing to the article by Morris which does not say that it was the idea of Deputy Education Minister Suraporn Danaitangtrakul. Also, in the above thread we have discussed whether or not it was WP:DUE to mention the whole LGBT ban at all. Now it really takes an excessive part of the article. --RJFF (talk) 16:35, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

The at present last three edits should be removed [[1]]. Too much text is removed (the inclusion of the text is discussed above) and the added section is not phrased or formatted in an acceptable way. The user seems to have read Jackson and "It is not clear whether the ban was ever enforced or whether any student was denied enter to Rajabhat institutes." is correct, but only the first part of the whole sentence. Including this would make the section even longer than is discussed above. The rest of the added section seems to be about the speech Rangsitpool held at an Unesco event. regards ^ツDyveldi ^{☯ prat} _{✉ post} 19:11, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Mentioned on the BLP

The main contributor did not know the original story Yosakrai had written the reason in the BLP

Yosakrai cites the same UNESCO speech by Sukavich again and again (see talk archives), which is a primary source and has nothing to do with the issues mentioned above, in my view. The other source cited by Yosakrai ([2]) does not mention Sukavich at all, so it neither confirms nor refutes the contentious statement.

RJFF (talk) 18:04, 20 June 2019 (UTC) 2405:9800:BC11:BD0D:F581:888B:9EFF:5201 (talk) 15:43, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Criticism

LGBTs Rights Incendent

On 26 December 1996, in a report in the Bangkok Post, the Rajabat Institute Council, the collective governing body of all of Thailand's colleges, declared that it would bar homosexuals from enrolling in any of its teacher training schools, the idea of Deputy Education Minister Suraporn Danaitangtrakul. THAILAND: GAYS AND LESBIANS BANNED FROM ENROLLING IN TEACHER TRAINING SCHOOLS The announcement was strongly criticised by human rights groups and many others, who urged the repeal of the policy. On 25 January 1997, Danaitangtrakul proposed that the Institute set new criteria to bar people with improper personalities, but not specific groups such as homosexuals.

It is not clear whether the ban was ever enforced or whether any student was denied enter to Rajabhat institutes.

• Professor Peter Jackson (academic) Australian National University edit by Russell.Hiang.Khng.Heng [3]

• Professor Dr.Rosalind C. Morris Duke University using Professor Peter Jackson (academic) book for reference

The tapestry of language and theory: Reading Rosalind Morris on post-structuralism and Thai modernity PA Jackson - South East Asia Research, 2004 - journals.sagepub.com Page 1. South East Asia Research, 12, 3, pp. 337–377. The tapestry of language and theory Reading Rosalind Morris on post-structuralism and Thai modernity Peter A. Jackson Abstract: Since the collapse of Marxism as the … Rosalind C. Morris (1997). Phillip Brian Harper (ed.). Educating Desire: Thailand, Transnationalism, Transgression. Duke University Press. pp. 53–79, at p. 54. {{cite book}}: |work= ignored (help)Yosakrai (talk) 14:50, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:Sukavich Rangsitpol

Please tell me why the article was deleted There were only two votes. One keep and one delete Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:Sukavich Rangsitpol

The other coincidences This article was created a week after the other one was deleted .I believe that article has the information that the subject political rivals want it deleted.

By the way The other main contributor of the new article is the one who put the other article for the deletion.

user:Legacypac who said the old article should be kept has very good reputation than the other who said it should be deleted but his vote did not heard.Yosakrai (talk) 14:50, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

@Yosakrai: The article was deleted under our criteria for speedy deletion policy as it was a composite of copyrighted sources. Sasquatch t|c 19:36, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

The Scandal

The case should be call Political Scandal not Computer Scandal

https://www.isranews.org/isranews-short-news/61774-law-61774.html

After the Subject ‘s Education Reform Team won against all accusations .

The above Links was talking about what compensation they should get.

I think the way it is written about the Scandal is completely wrong.This is not the case about corruption.It was about politic.สามเสน (talk) 13:41, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

The Verdict

https://mgronline.com/politics/detail/9600000122074

The court cleared the subject name in 2002 .

After the Verdict that the subject Education Reform team won against ministry of education 2017 ( they were accused by the subject political rivals )

The 1995 education reform team sue the ministry of education for 100 millions bath . Should this information included สามเสน (talk) 13:41, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

• Comment.

Both editors want his daughter page deleted back in November

ツDyveldi ☯ prat ✉ post 21:41, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Paul_012 (talk) 22:35, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

The creator of this article with negative views and false information for example his first political position was senator in 1987

Rangsitpol was Senator in 1987 "Senator" (PDF). Royal Thai Government Gazette. 104 (74): 4. 19 April 1987.,

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:RJFF/Thita_Manitkul

This is where his daughter biography is to day.

Could this be call conspiracy theory?

Should his daughter article be deleted ? She was member of parliament.

Should these two issues that was a political lies be in his biography?

Should there be an explanation why his biography said he ban LGBTS but it had never been approved in Thailand ? Yosakrai (talk) 04:09, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Comment. I agree with @ yosakrai จังหวัดอุบล1 (talk) 04:53, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

• Comment.

After I share on line if there are Thai people who agree with me that the political lies in our politician biography should be deleted.

They are two provinces that agree with me and wrote down at the same time from different parts of the country.

It was not duplicated.

• Comment. I agree with @ yosakrai จังหวัดอุบล1 (talk) 05:02, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

• Comment. I agree with @ yosakrai จังหวัดระยอง1 (talk) 05:02, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

I am deleting the sentencesYosakrai (talk) 03:30, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Hmm when I removed some, my impression was that this was all added by the same person or that it was more of the usual spam we tend to see at this page. Now what I see here is either socks or off-wiki canvassed editors. Not only are they not adequate policy-based WP:!VOTEs, also from single-purpose editor(s) (WP:SPA). The proper RFC is above. —PaleoNeonate – 04:46, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Hmm English is not our language, but there are a lots of Thai people who concern about this politician. For the reason,he founded schools for 3 millions poor Thai children between 1995-1997 Alinda47 (talk) 11:15, 6 July 2019 (UTC)Alinda47 (talk) 11:24, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

 ::http://wiki.kpi.ac.th/images/5/5f/Pln378.pdf Alinda47 (talk) 11:26, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Comment.

The Political Scandal shouldn’t be in the biography of the subject because he didn’t do anything wrong.And the court cleared his name.จังหวัดอุบล1 (talk) 02:52, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

• Comment.

The source for the subject article quote "It is not clear whether the ban was ever enforced or whether any student was denied enter to Rajabhat institutes." There are no source confirm the ban that have been approved in Thailand จังหวัดระยอง1 (talk) 01:58, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

There is no doubt that the ban was approved and in force i Thailand. The ban did exist.

- "In January 1997, a major public policy debate emerged in Bangkok, marking a highly unusual but somewhat predictable social treatment of Thai gay men by the gov- ernment. The Rajabhat Institute, which is the nation’s most comprehensive teacher’s college responsible for producing the majority of Thailand’s teachers, pursued a policy that has been in the legislature for 3 years. The policy was to ban all homosexuals from attending any of the institute’s 36 campuses throughout the country (Tansubhapol, 1997)." ... "The education minister openly supported the ban. When pressed about how the Rajabhat Institute might identify who was gay among the applicants, the administrators insisted that they could detect “signs of homosexuality” from interviews, enabling them to screen out gays and lesbians at an early stage. Less than a week after the con- troversy surfaced, the education minister finally admitted that the ban was mainly directed at “overt gays,” whom he explicitly referred to as the kathoeys, the effeminate male transvestites and transsexuals (“Sukhavich Unwavering,” 1997)." Quoted from pages 436-437 in Erni, John Nguyet (4 November 2006). "Epidemic Imaginary: Performing Global Figurations of "Third World AIDS"". Space and Culture. 9 (4). SAGE publications: 429–452. doi:10.1177/1206331206292448. ISSN 1206-3312.

- What is not clear is if the ban was enforced, which means it is not clear if the ban was ever used to ban one ore more persons from being admitted to The Rajabhat Institute. In the context of this article this does not matter. The ban existed for several years. It is clear that the discussion about the ban was a noteworthy debate. The important thing in this biography is that Sukavich publicly supported the ban and that he refused to lift it. regards ^ツDyveldi ^{☯ prat} _{✉ post} 18:44, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

• Comment. The new source that you mention begins with misspelling name was using the following sources

Peter A. Jackson |title=Offending Images: Gender Sexual Minorities, and State Control of the Media in Thailand |editor=Russell H. K. Heng |work=Media Fortunes, Changing Times: ASEAN States in Transition |publisher=Institute of Southeast Asian Studies |year=2002 |pages=216–217

the sources that the writer didn’t know if the ban has ever enforced.

Do you notice that every Thai in Thailand agree with me? Yosakrai (talk) 04:43, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

• Comment.

The ban has never been enforced at all

In a recent positive development, the Commission on Justice and Human Rights of the Thai Parliament has discussed the matter and decided that the ban goes against human rights principles.

March 1/ 1997

https://www.outrightinternational.org/content/thailand-gays-and-lesbians-banned-enrolling-teacher-training-schools Yosakrai (talk) 06:23, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

• Comment.

The ban has never been enforced in Thailand at all

In a recent positive development, the Commission on Justice and Human Rights of the Thai Parliament has discussed the matter and decided that the ban goes against human rights principles.

http://www.qrd.org/qrd/education/1997/misc.news-09.09.97 Yosakrai (talk) 06:23, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Should the article be protected?

There seems to be a lot of interest from ip-adresses in Thailand and the Far East. Their main interest seems to be removing critisim discussed above. In addition there seems to be an interest in adding quotations. I have removed todays addition/removal of text. This means that I also removed [[4]] which is a scientific article. The interesting thing about the article is that it does not mention Rangsitpol and in the list of educational ministers on page 62 it skips the period 1995-1997 whan Rangsitpol was minister. Is it about time to semi-protect the page so that ip-adresses and inexperienced users have to use the talk page to suggest changes and show references they think is of value to the article? regards ^ツDyveldi ^{☯ prat} _{✉ post} 08:58, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

I agree, the article should be semi-protected for a while. It seems that several notes and warnings to the IP who last added problematic content (promotional quotes, citation that consist of broken links or are offtopic, etc.) have been without effect. Regards, HaeB (talk) 09:19, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

RfC

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

This RfC dealt with two largely unrelated questions, the latter of which had two components:

1. No consensus to remove mention of the subject's involvement in computer-purchasing scandals. A raw vote count had 3 editors arguing that it was unnecessary, (plus an additional editor who did not cast a formal vote) one of them specifically objecting on the grounds of BLP policy, and two editors (plus two additional editors who did not cast a formal vote) arguing that it was worth including. 2 of the no-inclusion editors qualified that it is unnecessary to mention unless the scandal was monumental; one of the include editors said that it should be included in the context of other Ministry of Education scandals. There was insufficient discussion to resolve these qualifying statements one way or the other, leaving me with a no-consensus verdict here.
2. Consensus to include mention of his stance on LGBT issues (2a), and to include the related quote in the body of the article (2b). A raw vote count on issue 2a was 3 for inclusion (plus two editors who made arguments in favor of inclusion but did not vote), 1 editor who argued that it would be UNDUE unless the article was significantly longer, Additionally, one editor who made comments in a previous discussion which led to the RfC supported removal, but did not make substantive arguments in the RfC. All together, I believe that this comprises a consensus for inclusion. As for issue 2b, 1 editor supported including the quote without qualification, two supported including it so long as it is not in the lead (status quo has the quote only in the body), and 1 or 2 implicit opposes due to opposing 2a. This comes down to essentially the same split as 2a, and thus I find that we have a consensus to keep the quote as well.

(non-admin closure) _signed, Rosguill ^talk 15:59, 2 October 2019 (UTC) modified 19:39, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

---

1: Should the article mention his involvement in a scandal over the purchase of overpriced computers, and that he was later cleared by a court?

2a: Should the article mention his position on a ban of homosexual and transgender students from teacher training institutes?

2b: Should the article, in the context of 2a, contain the quote: "homosexuals are no different to drug addicts who need treatment. ... I do not want these people to be role models for children"? RfC relisted by Cunard (talk) at 00:19, 28 July 2019 (UTC). --RJFF (talk) 07:57, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

• Comment. It seems this is a routine content dispute between you and Yosakrai. You're not prohibited from doing an RfC, but it seems to me the dispute is likely to be resolved more efficiently with a better result if the two of you hash things out on this talk page one-on-one before you engage in dispute resolution. How about you withdraw the RfC, and the two of you explain your positions and arguments on this page and then look for common ground? If you reach an impasse, then it's time for an RfC. R2 (bleep) 16:23, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

  I'm a recent third party observer of this article. I'm not sure how realistic this would be. RJFF only appears to be recently involved as well, perhaps as a result of a WP:BLPN thread where I requested more input. The history of the article (and especially of this talk page) are witness to the strange constant disruption, including by various socks who were blocked over this... I'm not sure that an RFC will solve that, however, maybe. —PaleoNeonate – 17:41, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

PaleoNeonate, RJFF is the main contributor to the article, creating most of its content in November 2018. Almost all the later changes have been disruptive edits. --Paul_012 (talk) 15:58, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, I had missed that, I admit that I've only looked at the most recent history pages before commenting. —PaleoNeonate – 17:52, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

I am afraid we have already reached that impasse. There has been a discussion at the WP:BLP noticeboard, without result. Yosakrai insists on deleting these statements, while I do not want to accept this. Yosakrai cites the same UNESCO speech by Sukavich again and again (see talk archives), which is a primary source and has nothing to do with the issues mentioned above, in my view. The other source cited by Yosakrai ([5]) does not mention Sukavich at all, so it neither confirms nor refutes the contentious statement. I must admit that I fail to understand Yosakrai's argument for deletion (perhaps because, to be honest, his/her English is not too good). This is why I would like to see other users have a say. --RJFF (talk) 18:04, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

I see. It's going to be difficult for newcomers to participate in the RfC in an informed manner without understanding the positions of the disputants and/or some familiarity with Thai politics and/or sources. Why don't you cast your !votes and promote the RfC on related, more trafficked pages? R2 (bleep) 21:49, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

The bit on the LGBT ban is based on an article by Peter A. Jackson, professor of Thai history at the Australian National University, who specialises in the field of culture, gender and sexuality. It was published in a collective volume, published by the Institute of Southeast Asian Studies, which is one of the leading publishers of academic books on Southeast Asia. The incident, and Sukavich's position, is also backed by a second academic source: an article by Rosalind C. Morris, professor of anthropology at the Columbia University, with a focus on mainland Southeast Asia, especially Thailand. Her article was published in a volume edited by Phillip Brian Harper, professor at New York University researching gender and sexuality studies, and published by Duke University Press. These are pretty much "gold standard" reliable sources.

As the reliability of the information should be out of question, the only issue remaining is if it is WP:DUE to mention this incident and Sukavich's position on the ban (and his general attitude on gays being teachers, and homosexuality being a disorder, that speaks from the quote). User:Paul 012 has called into question if it may be undue to mention this controversy in a BLP. However, I find it completely adequate, as (1) this issue is treated briefly, not taking a prominent place in the article, and (2) two established academics have published on it, which is a lot, given that otherwise Sukavich is barely ever mentioned in English-language academic sources. If we omit this, the article will be a mere CV, listing which position he had at which period, but not what he did or what distinguished him.

Regarding question 1, the information is based on an article by Tom Wingfield, former lecturer of East Asian studies, University of Leeds, published in a Routledge volume. The issue is mostly if it is WP:DUE to mention his involvement in a corruption scandal even though he was, at last, judicially cleared from the accusations. He was involved in a long-running scandal over the purchase of overpriced computers for schools, but was cleared of any wrongdoing during a subsequent defamation suit. – I do not think this implies in any way that he was guilty of corruption or other wrongdoing. It only mentions that he was involved in the scandal (i.e. accused of wrongdoing, even if it could not be proven). --RJFF (talk) 14:29, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

This looks like a good summary to me. In particular, it is not compatible with NPOV to delete the parts of the article sourced to the highest quality references while keeping the "CV" parts. Regards, HaeB (talk) 06:38, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

• Comment.

-It could not be proven because it was political lies and the ministry of education has to paid compensation

https://www.isranews.org/isranews-short-news/61774-law-61774.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yosakrai (talk • contribs) 06:34, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

• 1: Since he was cleared, unless the scandal was monumental, perhaps that it's unnecessary to mention.

2a: I think so, considering that the sources are reliable and that the article currently includes no criticism whatsoever, where a mention of this would not be undue. I've seen arguments in edit summaries that it was unreliable and false but this does not seem to be the case.

2b: I'm ambivalent about this. If it's mentioned, it should not be in the lead, I think. —PaleoNeonate – 14:58, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

• Pretty much echoing PaleoNeonate. (1) If he was cleared on the computer stuff, this only needs mentioning if it was a particularly notable scandal; (2a) Yes, he's a politician so his views on issues like this are clearly relevant, (2b) I don't feel strongly about it, but if the quote isn't contested I don't see why it shouldn't be included in a short section on his views on LGBT issues. GirthSummit _(blether) 15:14, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
• Having looked through a brief Google search for Thai sources, I must say the LGBT issue appears very minor compared to what else is still missing from the article. His ministership appears to be most notably marked by the process of attempted education reform, a large part of which entailed decentralised hiring and high-value procurement projects (related to said corruption scandal). That the LGBT issue has been covered by academic sources is probably due more to the fact that it's a topic of interest to international scholars, while the day-to-day education administration is not, than it actually being a prominent issue. So my response would be (1) yes, the corruption scandal should be mentioned, but it should also be placed within the wider context of relevant Ministry of Education policies during Sukavich's term, and (2) no, the Rajabhat student ban would not warrant being mentioned if such mention would constitute over 10% of the article's coverage of his role as minister (which, as mentioned, needs expanding to include more pertinent stuff first). --Paul_012 (talk) 17:44, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

@Paul 012: Would you like to add this "more pertinent stuff" to the article? If the article had more "meat", we would not have to argue whether it is due to include a brief mention of the LGBT ban (which I still think is noteworthy without doubt). Unfortunately, my language skills are not good enough to reliably analyse Thai sources. --RJFF (talk) 16:52, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Do you have access to the articles I have mentioned below? They do not contain much information, but they do contain a bit more than Jackson and Morris and they describe a bit of the context of both the LGBT ban and the computer-issue. regards ^ツDyveldi ^{☯ prat} _{✉ post} 19:01, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

• Yes, to 1, 2a and 2b. The information is reliably sourced and relevant. I have consulted both Jackson's and Wingfield's articles and they are correctly quoted and both sources are reliable (goes for both the author and the publisher). The computer scandal is well published and well known so that he later was cleared is correct to include. That he refused to lift the ban is an important fact in the role he had at the time. The fact that his successor lifted the ban is also important. What you actually do as a minister is more important than what the minister claims his opinion is (re the UNESCO speech). The quote should also stay. regards ^ツDyveldi ^{☯ prat} _{✉ post} 18:44, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

  Please also note that he and the importance of the episodes is mentioned in further peer reviewed articles.

  - p 169 note 30 (he is spelled Sukhavich) Nerida M. Cook (1997) Democratisation in Thailand revisited, Asian Studies Review, 21:2-3, 157-173, https://doi.org/10.1080/03147539708713170

  - pp 281, 284, 285 (spelled both Sukhavit and Sukhavich) Constitutional Reform Amidst Economic Crisis Author(s): Prudhisan Jumbala Southeast Asian Affairs, (1998), pp. 265-291 Published by: ISEAS - Yusof Ishak Institute Stable URL: https://www.jstor.org/stable/27912208

  - pp 510-511 in Evolving Toward What? Parties, Factions, and Coalition Behavior in Thailand Today Author(s): Paul Chambers Journal of East Asian Studies, Vol. 5, No. 3 (SEPTEMBER–DECEMBER 2005), pp. 495-520Published by: Cambridge University Press Stable URL: https://www.jstor.org/stable/23417876

  Both episodes are well known and notable parts of his political career. --regards ^ツDyveldi ^{☯ prat} _{✉ post} 19:57, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

I have been watching this problem for quite some time and it is possibly the time to speak out.

• With regard to 1, as per WP:BLP, I think it should not be mentioned at this point otherwise the article is giving undue attention to criticism of the person.
• With regard to 2, the ultimate source of the information is Bangkok Post only. I have consulted all the relevant articles/books. All of them points to Bangkok Post articles. I have informed the daughter of the former Minister of Education to contact the newspaper as she denies that the Minister was misquoted. I said that if the newspaper retract them or issue an apology, this matter may be cleared.

--Taweetham (talk) 09:52, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

The article should be expanded. This will give the criticism a perspective and the correct setting. But it should be expanded with reliable sources who write about Rangsitpol and what he did. Most of his life is missing and the two years as a minister of education should not fill the whole article as at times it has done.

- At present the article is filled with quotations that basically have no place in the article. The article should focus on later evaluations of the work that was done and not on speeches given at the time or his own evaluations. The sources given are also frequently not relevant and does not cover what is written in the article.

- The critisim is published in several peer-reviewed articles. It is based on a debate containing a series of articles and was obviously an important debate at the time. regards ^ツDyveldi ^{☯ prat} _{✉ post} 16:26, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

@Taweetham:

• "otherwise the article is giving undue attention to criticism of the person" - what makes you think that this would be a case of WP:UNDUE? On the face of it, coverage in a RS such as an academic book seems more weighty than many or most other statements in the article.
• "the ultimate source of the information is Bangkok Post only" - I fail to see how this is a problem. This is the standard situation for most facts reported in the news media, as journalists routinely rely on other publications. To the contrary, if many other publications quoted the Bangkok Post on this (thus each making a decision to regard it as a suitable source), that lends it more credibility and weight. (I would be more likely agree that we have a problem if only one newspaper had ever reported the information.)

Regards, HaeB (talk) 06:38, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I am late to response but I wish to make my points clear here without making new arguments.

@HaeB: For issue #1, my main reason is the 10% comment from @Paul 012: above and WP:BLP. If this is not WP:BLP, green sentence written by @RJFF: above is more or less acceptable.

@HaeB and Rosguill: For issue #2, I do not have any problems with the Bangkok Post at all. Please do not interpret my intention otherwise. (I do read the Bangkok Post everyday for more than a decade!) For the record, I did not vote for issue #2 but pointed out that a new evidence may emerge to clear this issue. I do believe that the discriminatory practice as mentioned in the article did occur in Thailand and it should be written on Wikipedia. However, as it was two decades ago, we mainly rely on written evidence not our memories.

--Taweetham (talk) 06:23, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Taweetham, ok, in light of these comments, I don't think that this changes the discussion's outcome. If you want, I can change the summary to represent these positions more accurately. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 15:41, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

@Rosguill: Please kindly change the summary. --Taweetham (talk) 19:23, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

For the record. The quote in question stems from Bankok Post quoted by Peter Jackson ISBN 9812301933. Jackson shows that the debate was not restricted to the Bankok Post. He also quotes Matichon 23 Jan 1997, Daily News 24 Jan 1997, Thai Rath, 25 Jan 1997 and The Nation 24 Jan 1997. He uses 3 pages to describe the debate and what it was about and it is clear that this was an important debate at the time. Rewriting this will make the passage longer. regards ^ツDyveldi ^{☯ prat} _{✉ post} 15:58, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

@Dyveldi: As I mentioned earlier, the discriminatory practice undoubtedly occurred during the period. The important point for this article is with regard to 2b: what did the minister say? I just briefly re-read the materials again. The three pages from Jackson are pp 216-218. I previously mentioned that the Bangkok Post is the only source of the quote because I looked at the reference list from Jackson. However, this could be wrong as there is an additional mention of "Matichon, 23 Jan 1997, pp. 1, 23. ...ตุ๊ดทอมเรียนครู ระบุชัดคนป่วย" (on the top of p.218) which is not in the reference list. If anyone has an access to it, please confirm if the content is relevant to 2b above. --Taweetham (talk) 19:35, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Please also consult the first paragraph in Kathoey#Recent_developments. It refers to pages xiii-xiv in a book edited by Jackson [[6]]. This is the foreword written by Rakkit Rattachumpoth and discusses the ban.
- Rattachumpoth writes: "Anti-homosexual discrimination had long been practised in Thailand but was not formalized until the recent Rajabhat Institutes case. This involved a ban against homosexual students enrolling in courses leading to degrees in kindergarden and primary school teaching. This ban had apparently been in force, albeit on a limited basis, since 1993. But the Rajabhat Institutes, the governing body of the 36 teachers colleges nationwide, opened a veritable Pandora's box in January 1997 when it announced that the ban would be formalized and extended to all campuses from the beginning of the 1997 academic year. Widespread public criticism of the ban ensued, especially after the then Education Minister, Sukhavich Rangsitphol, attempted to justify the Rajabhat Institute's ban by equating people with a wrong sexual orientation" to drug addicts and denied that the anti-homosexual ban was a human rights issue. Minister Sukhavich was also quoted saying that "sexually aberrant people" needed rehabilitation and should be kept in a camp for the efficient administration of "treatment." " and goes on "However, the controversy ended later in 1997 without anyone losing face, by a traditional Thai method of dealing with problems that are likely to tarnish the reputation of the parties involved. The ban was simply quietly removed from the Rajabhat Institutes' ordinances when a new Education Minister was appointed after a cabinet reshuffle." (The underscore is mine)
- Jackson 2002 quotes from "Sukhavich Unwavering in Stance Against Gays", The Nation (Internet edition), 24 Jan 1997: "Education Minister Sukhavich Rangsitphol stood his ground yesterday in defending his ban on homosexuals .... saying that the move is directed agains overt gays. 'I prefer calling them kathoey, but there is no offence meant. And those who don't make their preferences public should not have problems with the ban' ... he said."
- It will not look any better if the quotes Rattachumpoth offers are added to the article or if the longer quote from Jackson is added. Rattachumpoth does however show why no retraction ever came. The problem was "reshuffled" quietly with the "Thai method" (probably a quite common method in a lot of places in the world). Somehow trying to "modify" the quotes will just make things longer and they will become a larger part of the article. regards ^ツDyveldi ^{☯ prat} _{✉ post} 18:54, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

To make it clear to all, I came to this article with no intention to make it better or worse for the subject of this article. This public talk page is the only place I give my opinion simply as a registered user and my intention is to help end the dispute if possible. An opinion quoted elsewhere (whether with a username or a real name) is done without my permission and may be out of context.

The Nation (Internet edition) may be difficult to trace as it is no longer online and it is probably not archived. It would be nice to have an access to major Thai newspapers (both in Thai and English) for the month of January 1997 to see what was actually said. I guess that all major newspaper should have this news as a headline during the month. I beg those who have an access to check this out. It is extremely difficult for editors to volunteer under a legal pressure and without proper access to the relevant reference materials.

Quotes are hard facts and hence usually considered objective. On the other hand, incorrect reports and misprints are not uncommon too. My primary concern is WP:BLP. Getting access to these sources is therefore very important to end the dispute.

--Taweetham (talk) 15:57, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

Recent edit warring by IP

Hi - to the IP editor who has recently been edit warring to implement changes to the page - I wonder whether there is perhaps a language barrier here, but to say that someone was involved in a scandal does not mean that they were guilty of any wrongdoing, it can just mean that their name was associated with the scandal. I've added a couple of words about 'accused of being involved', even though I don't think they're strictly necessary - what this really needs is someone with access to the relevant sources to expand on it a bit to make it clear who accused whom of what, and exactly what the court said, since I don't understand really how a defamation case brought by the subject could have 'cleared' him of anything - I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think that's what a court like that would do. Without access to the sourcing however, I'm not able to do anything about that.

The other stuff didn't seem relevant to me - this is a biographical article about the person, that stuff seems potentially more relevant to an article about the history of education in Thailand. Please don't keep adding the same stuff back in, discuss changes here. GirthSummit _(blether) 14:06, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Clarification provided, with quote from the source. The source explicitly says embroiled in. This is not the same as accused. This means there was a scandal and he became embroiled in it. How the source does not say. Worries a bit more about the source "All Quiet on Western Front". Bangkok Post. 28 February 2002 which I cannot find. As there is no url it is not possible to look for a possibly archived copy in the Internet Archive. From memory of previous discussions this possibly was a much later defamation suit from someone else who was accused, but the source I looked at at the time was very unclear. It did not seem to have anything to do with criminal accusations though. It seemed that someone at the time got fired from their jobs and had sued to get the job back. Memory is inaccurate though and I would have to look at all the sources provided on this discussion page to possibly relocate it. --regards ^ツDyveldi ^{☯ prat} _{✉ post} 12:53, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

This I think is the urls I was thinking of [[7]][[8]]. You need to be able to read Thai to make full use of them. Machine-translation can give some idea but nowhere near enough to use them as sources. You'll also need to be able to understand Thai law to figure out what this was about. What they have to do with Rangsitpol I was never able to figure out. It seems there was a diciplinary action and that due to reasons of not having followed correct procedure someone got it annulled. Someone seemed last year to think these articles was important for this biography and that it somehow cleared Rangsitpol, se discussion sections above. --regards ^ツDyveldi ^{☯ prat} _{✉ post} 13:15, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

Please also see three reliable sources added above 19:57, 23 June 2019. I have revisited them and there is no doubt that this was a big scandal and furthermore he lost his position as Minister of Education fairly shortly after being appointed. The scandal was so important it contributed to him losing his position although he was later made a minister again he did not seem to regain the posistion as Minister of Education. I have not expanded the stuff about the computer scandal partly because his time as Minister of Education is a very short period in a long life. The article sorely needs to expand with sourced material from the rest of his life and the criticism even if it is important, it should not be the dominant part of the biography.

- The latest edits are adding a lot of stuff about the results of an educational reform a very long time after Rangsitpol lost his position. The editors seem to think that Rangsitpol should be credited. They are quite possibly overestimating quite a lot the importance of the roundabout a year he held the position as Minister of Education. The sources provided with the edits does not mention Rangsitpol. To credit Rangsitpol many years afterwards needs very good sources which explicitly gives him the credit for the results achieved in the educational system after he lost his position. --regards ^ツDyveldi ^{☯ prat} _{✉ post} 14:05, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

@Dyveldi: Just to note that Thai references can be used. You wrote "You need to be able to read Thai to make full use of them." Did you add "them" as citations? Just note that they are in Thai language when you cite them in the article (language=Thai). --Stainless Steel Rat (talk) 01:53, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Sorry I was unclear. From what I can figure out from the machine translations of the two Thai sources i mentioned 13:15, 10 October 2020 they do not look relevant to this article and I have not been able to figure out why they were added to the discussions above. You have to be able to read Thai to be certain though.

- The three sources I added to this thread 19:57, 23 June 2019 are in English and are relevant. regards ^ツDyveldi ^{☯ prat} _{✉ post} 05:03, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 November 2023

2403:6200:89A7:D762:8D10:E399:F008:FADB (talk) 07:37, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

I will be writing the information I want to add about his contribution to 4.35 million poor children in remote area in his talk page.

In case someone want to return his contribution to our community.

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 08:04, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

I want to add

I strongly believe that, as a citizen of the world, any person has the right to learn and should be entitled to have access to education according to their competency and needs.

It is essential that the government provide educational services that respond to the people’s needs

Education, therefore, has to be organized in such a way that people from all walks of life can participate in educational activities at levels and times of their preference.

With regard to the learning society, as I mentioned earlier, optimistically, people from all walks of life should be able to have equal access to education according to their needs and potentials.

All sort of boundaries, be their gender, age, socio-economic status, physical or mental disabilities have to be eliminated.

To achieve this, we have to distinctively promote continuing and lifelong education, the form of education which is responsive to individual needs and preferences.

With educational facilities and a variety of educational programs available, people can make use of the learning centre as a place to acquire technical skills or knowledge adaptive to their work and daily life activities.

2403:6200:89A7:D762:8D10:E399:F008:FADB (talk) 09:09, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

20 Most Famous Bridges In The

https://www.discoverwalks.com/blog/world/20-most-famous-bridges-in-the-world/?fbclid=IwAR0mjui-k0Nx75eznel6iTOOyWKae_aivZl2vfG3_UVT7wwf7GYGG4I1Edk_aem_AXVCWQg_nCCzKJkvzSFpF-orOCoW3EuT27FP3Or1ywsxCF3RnS8-mLQuWeUWhUpZSWM 49.228.64.97 (talk) 17:37, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

English is not my language.I found reference about Sukavich Rangsitpol who help poor rural people in Thailand reduces poverty by established schools for poor children from agricultural families in remote areas. What was Thaksin Shinawatra policies that help the poor rural people. When someone wrote on these page it was deleted by what ever reason.As well as Author:Sukavich Rangsitpol page in wikisources was deleted because someone only want it deleted with conflict of Interest. And only corrupted politician who had money and evil is Thaksin.

It his talkpage ,many people try to argue that he is in jail.The person who deleted information on Sukavich Rangsitpol talk page argued that he is not in jail.

The Supreme Court sentenced him 8 years.His is prisoner by Thailand’s Supreme Court order.

Lastly,I want to know if I am allowed to post link on talk page or not.In case someone come and see so they can wrote more information about the person who got us out of poverty because of His Education reform. 49.228.64.97 (talk) 18:00, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

help

https://www.academia.edu/43054905/EDUCATION_FOR_LIFE_THAILANDS_MOST_IMPORTANT_CHALLENGE_His_Excellency_SUKAVICH_RANGSITPOL_Deputy_Prime_Minister_and_Minister_of_Education_Royal_Thai_Government_to_the_FOREIGN_CORRESPONDENTS_CLUB_OF_THAILAND

I want to know why my edit was deleted and this page was lock. 2403:6200:89A7:D762:8D10:E399:F008:FADB (talk) 06:40, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

The page was protected("locked") due to your persistent disruptive editing. You seemed to be posting a speech or quote from this individual, without it being clear as to why. Please first gain a consensus for your edit here. 331dot (talk) 08:23, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

https://www.academia.edu/43054905/EDUCATION_FOR_LIFE_THAILANDS_MOST_IMPORTANT_CHALLENGE_His_Excellency_SUKAVICH_RANGSITPOL_Deputy_Prime_Minister_and_Minister_of_Education_Royal_Thai_Government_to_the_FOREIGN_CORRESPONDENTS_CLUB_OF_THAILAND 49.228.64.97 (talk) 18:39, 20 November 2023 (UTC) 49.228.64.97 (talk) 18:03, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

References