Talk:Soltan Hoseyn

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On 13 June 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Sultan Husayn to Soltan Hoseyn. The result of the discussion was Page moved.

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved per discussion. The issues raised in opposition to the move seem to be adequately addressed below. - GTBacchus^(talk) 13:55, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Soltan Hosein → Sultan Husayn – per WP:COMMONNAME

It's very clear that "Soltan Hosein" is not common name in English-language historiography.

-- Takabeg (talk) 23:32, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose I see no burning reason for this move. As far as I am aware the current version is the one used by Michael Axworthy in his biography of Nader Shah, Sword of Persia, the main source for this article. As that was published in 2006, it's a lot more up to date than most of the other books listed. What T.E. Lawrence said about Arabic also applies to Persian: "There are some 'scientific systems' of transliteration, helpful to people who know enough Arabic not to need helping, but a washout for the world. I spell my names anyhow, to show what rot the systems are." Since we list the alternative names in the first line and have redirects here anyway, I don't see the point in going through the disruption a page move would entail. --Folantin (talk) 13:08, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support The Google books results above do not make the commonness disparity as clear as it could be stated. To use a search limited to target this topic, 1722 being a prominent date for the topic: <"Soltan Hosein" 1722 -"books LLC" -wikipedia> returns 17 unique results, while <"Sultan Husayn" 1722 -"books LLC" -wikipedia> returns 212 unique results, showing a little over a 12:1 disparity. If we limit our search to 2000 - 2011 to address the recentness concern in the oppose above, 7 verses 85 unique results are returned. There is no disruption I can think of for a page move placing an automatic redirect. By contrast, the concerns of commonness, of recognizability, of matching what people will type as a first guess and expect to be taken to, to not violate the principle of least astonishment, are all fulfilled by a move here.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 19:19, 16 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Mother

What was the name of Sultan Hussein's mother? Why wasn't this person named??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.124.22.107 (talk) 08:18, 15 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 13 June 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Page moved. While there are arguably multiple possible names that could work, consensus is that the proposed name fits COMMONNAME more than the current one. (non-admin closure) Garnarblarnar (talk) 05:46, 20 June 2022 (UTC) Garnarblarnar (talk) 05:46, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The request to rename this article to Soltan Hoseyn has been carried out.

Sultan Husayn → Soltan Hoseyn

When writing "1722 Sultan Husayn" on Google search, it gives 163.000 results, whereas "1722 Soltan Hosayn" gives 379.000 results. Variants resembling the latter spelling gives 104.000 results ("1722 Soltan Hossein") and 311.000 results ("1722 Soltan Hosein") and 306.000 results ("1722 Soltan Hoseyn"). (Ehh.. for some reason the numbers keep heavily changing on my Google search, just in case the Google numbers may seem off).

The reason I included the 1722 date is to specifically distinguish him from other figures, as he is the only relevant figure with that name in regard to this event, as it marked the (temporary) downfall of his kingdom. Otherwise it would be problematic to get a better result, as tons of Muslim figures have that name and its variants.

The foremost Iranologists/historians of Iran use the spellings of Soltan Hosein/Hossein/Hosayn/Hosain/Hoseyn. Willem Floor and Rudi Matthee, arguably the most prominent scholars in Safavid studies, both use "Soltan Hoseyn" in some of their latest works, such as Safavid Iran and the “Turkish Question” or How to Avoid a War on Multiple Fronts (2022, Matthee) and The Monetary History of Iran: From the Safavids to the Qajars (2013, Floor).

Other notable sources include;

"Soltan-Hoseyn" - Safavid Persia in the Age of Empires: The Idea of Iran Vol. 10 (2021). I. B. Tauris. Written by multiple scholars, including Andrew J. Newman and Sussan Babaie.

"Soltan Hoseyn" - The Safavid World (2021). Routledge. Written by multiple scholars, including Floor. Edited by Matthee.

"Soltan Hosein" - The Sword of Persia: Nader Shah, from Tribal Warrior to Conquering Tyrant (2006). I. B. Tauris. Michael Axworthy

"Soltan Hossein" - Iran in World History (2016). Oxford University Press. Richard Foltz

"Soltan Hosain" - Iran: A Modern History (2017). Yale University Press. Abbas Amanat

"Soltan Hosayn" - Encyclopædia Iranica

Moreover, it is important to note that "Sultan" (Soltan) was used as a name in Safavid Iran, and should not be confused with the kingly title of Sultan. Examples include "Khalil Soltan", "Shahqoli Soltan", "Soltan Ma'sum Soltan Torkman", etc (from Floor, Willem (2008). Titles and Emoluments in Safavid Iran: A Third Manual of Safavid Administration).

--HistoryofIran (talk) 00:02, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I wonder why the english have a fancy for bizarre spellings such as "Suleiman" either, when it should be Soleyman in Persian or Süleyman in Turkish... but english sources (worst of all is the britannica encyclopedia) are unreliable when it comes to West Asian history. 2A01:CB00:4C3:D500:9136:B706:2CCC:BD1F (talk) 09:08, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: Overwhelmingly the current article title is the WP:COMMONNAME in English language sources per NGRAM. Mike Cline (talk) 12:48, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That ngram is not accurate, as it includes other figures as well, such as the Timurid ruler Sultan Husayn Bayqara. Which is why I included 1722. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:27, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Per aforementioned reasons. Amir Ghandi (talk) 18:22, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support, however I prefer "Soltan-Hoseyn" because "Soltan" was not a honorific prefix for his name. The binomial naming convention is common in Iran, such as "Mohammad-Ali", "Hoseyn-Ali" "Soltan-Ali", etc. Benyamin (talk) 21:03, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Kabul 1712?

@HistoryofIran I'm bringing this up because I'm not sure about it entirely. From what I have seen, the source linked there is the only one that seems to mention the Hotaks even conquered Kabul. I checked for other sources and there doesn't seem to be anything regarding this.

I've checked "Kabul Under The Mughal Rule (1504-1738 AD)" for example, and it has no mention of the Hotaks ever conquering Kabul, it remained under Mughal rule until Nader Shah.

Axworthy, and Ali's The National Awakening. has no mention of it. Is there any other source that can relay that the Afghans ever conquered Kabul in this period? Noorullah (talk) 05:16, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I'll check my sources later today. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:13, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@HistoryofIran Find anything? Noorullah (talk) 15:56, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ops sorry, I forgot about this. I removed it for now. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:57, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, sounds good. I was just confused because I didn't find anything other then that source specifically that relayed anything about the Hotaks conquering Kabul. It reminded me of the old Hotak dynasty map. Noorullah (talk) 16:03, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]