Talk:The Fields of Athenry

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Copyright[edit]

If the song was written n the 1980s isn't it copyrighted? -R. fiend 04:44, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The music is copyrighted. The lyrics are from a ballad well over a hundred years old. -Mask 20:54, 22 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The article clearly states twice that the words and the lyrics were written in the 1980s. If this is incorrect, the article needs to change. If this is correct, the lyrics need to go unless we can contact the copyright holder and get permission. Marnanel 12:46, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I left the relevent links on your talk page. The St. John version is based on an 1800's folk song. -Mask? 18:39, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Are not words and lyrics the same thing? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.197.137.77 (talk) 20:35, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Botany Bay[edit]

I removed the mention of Tasmania. The lyrics clearly reference the penal colony in Botany Bay, not Tasmania.

You are right --V7ndotcom elursrebmem 11:41, 18 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ran/cut me down[edit]

I have sung this song/heard this song sung many times, so when I saw "ran me down" it surprised me. Looking on other various sites, the lyrics are usually referred to as "cut me down." However, I cannot find an extremely reputable source for this reference. Here are some sites that write it as "cut me down": The most reputable is DigiTrad, which also includes a MIDI of the song: here are the lyrics and related information. Other sites also reference "cut me down." [1] [2] [3] I'd like to see some sources for "ran me down" before changing it back.

Yizzerin 05:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Original recording[edit]

This article states that the song "was first recorded by Irish ballad singer Paddy Reilly", but Pete St. John's website states "I wrote the Fields of Athenry in the middle 1970's and it was finally recorded and released in 1979 by Danny Doyle and became a top 10 hit and the rest is history!" Mikecron 00:29, 10 December 2005 (UTC) Actually I believe it was recorded by a band called Rakish Paddy first Gerry Crilly sang the song — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.108.181.254 (talk) 05:37, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Popular versions[edit]

"The song has been recorded by many Irish artists such as Paddy Reilly, Frank Patterson, Ronan Tynan, Brush Shiels, James Galway, and The Dropkick Murphys."

The Dropkick Murphys are not an Irish band - edited accordingly. Lwdjaymac 07:33, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Punk" version[edit]

The version of the song being referenced here was sung by the band "Dropkick Murphys" on their "Blackout" album, not No Use For a Name...

There is a song by No Use for a Name called "Fields of Agony". I wonder if that's what is being talked about.

IRA[edit]

Untill a citation is given, I will remove this statementSuperdude99 11:32, 22 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Someone removed the reference the the "IRA" version of the lyrics as of July 21, 2008. As a fan of Irish Rebel Music (though not necessarily the IRA), I think it is of interest, and certainly relevant to anyone who wants to know why this song may be considered "sectarian". I put it back in, and added a citation to a YouTube video showing a live performance with the audience chanting. LunaCity (talk) 18:55, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Pick up a version of The Dubliners 40th anniversary Live DVD, where they sing in Dublin. You can clearly hear the audience chant "Sinn Fein" and "IRA" during the chorus.(Paddy Reilly doesn't really seem to mind)83.109.90.218 (talk) 21:01, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"A Father's Advice"[edit]

I've always wondered what Ranger's fans sing to this tune. I've been unable to find a listing of the words anywhere. There is a category for Rangers songs, it'd be interesting to see the words of "A Father's Advice" added. Camillus (talk) 12:50, 30 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually - hold that result, I just found it here.

404 Not Found...

This link works. [4] Jess Cully 12:57, 4 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Famine[edit]

Do you think it's accurate to say it's "about the Famine"? Although it's the timeframe, I would think it's more of a reflection of Transportation to Australia than anything else. --Mike Searson 01:24, 21 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The lyrics say that "Michael" is being transported because he "stole Trevelyan's corn" that his "son might see the morn". So yes, it's about transportation, but he's being transported for a crime he committed because of the famine, so it's accurate to say the song is about the famine. Fumblebruschi (talk) 21:04, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Fields of Anfield Road[edit]

I don't think it's entirely right to redirect Fields of Anfield Road here to Fields of Athenry. They have the same tune but they are different songs, with different meanings, histories and significances. As a Liverpool fan I can attest that it's one of our most important songs (up there with You'll Never Walk Alone) and I think it deserves a little article of its own. I only post here because I'm not sure how to create an article when the new article's title is a redirect to something else... K. Lásztocska 02:47, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It shouldn't be mentioned on this page at all. Every Irish Person and all the sports teams who sing the original hate the version sang by Liverpool and it's god awful. There should be no mention of it in relation to this song. Liverpool started singing it when they played Celtic in the UEFA Cup and think because they sang You'll Never Walk Alone together in Parkhead that they could rip off this song as well with no thought to what the song meant and why the teams who sing it actually sing it. All have connections with Ireland and the likes of London Irish and Celtic were formed by people who had to leave or forcibly removed Ireland during and after the Famine. Liverpool F.C. (although the city like London, Manchester, Birmingham etc have a strong Irish diaspora) have no background to the events or people who relate to the original.
Just a little background and one of the reasons why I hate the Liverpool version and why it is mentioned on this page! FearSneachta (talk) 14:43, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Your personal feelings do not matter here; only rules and guidelines (see original research, for example). Your hatred of said song is not a good enough reason to have the sentence removed from this page. ~ smb 18:19, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I really must come in to support and ehco the sentiments of FearSneachta. This "Liverpool" version has no right to be included in this article. For staters you will notice it is named "The Fields of Anfield Road" and has it's own article. Secondly, what if I were to go into "When The Saints Go Marching In" article and mention all the teams that sing "When The Reds/Blues/Greens/Whites/Yellows/ etc Go Marching In," what would happen then? You know fine well what would happen - they would be all removed, and rightly so, the same as this Liverpool Football song should be removed from this article. Pat Pending (talk) 19:28, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You have not advanced a sound argument for the removal of sourced material from this page. See When Johnny Comes Marching Home. It is perfectly acceptable to include sections like Other versions or Popular culture. In this case, WJCMH spawns several other versions including The Ants Go Marching One By One (the theme for various footballs songs). The first page links the second and vice versa. The Battle Hymn of the Republic has a section named In sports which includes information on Glory Glory Man United. Again, both pages link each other.
On this page, the The Fields of Anfield Road information fits in well under Sporting anthem. Moreover, if somebody wanted to expand on the IRA version, you will not be able to prevent them, providing their addition is sourced. This is Wikipedia after all, not MySpace. ~ smb 20:11, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In addition, so many editors were adding "When The Reds/Blues/Greens/Whites Go Marching In," they created a new page: When The Saints Go Marching In (sport) ~ smb 20:16, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think the fact that The Fields of Anfield Road already has it's own article, is a sound enough argument in itself, and with all due respect, it is not a "Sporting Anthem" it's a Liverpool F.C. song - ever heard Leeds singing "The Fields Of Elland Road"? Pat Pending (talk) 21:51, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We can easy change the section name to In sports, as per The Battle Hymn of the Republic and Glory Glory Man United. But you can't remove sourced information simply because you don't like it. ~ smb 22:13, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What sourced information? Pat Pending (talk) 22:27, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please see footnote number four: Story of a Song, Irish Independent, 30 September, 2006
I have already, it's an article about the Irish Independent, there is No Source regarding The Fields Of Anfield Road. Pat Pending (talk) 23:18, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You are in error. The Irish Independent is merely the paper in which a story appeared. There is no provision that a source must be made freely available on the Internet. If you want verification, then try a LexisNexi search. ~ smb 23:26, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, I want it linked as per WP:verifiable sources or removed. Thanks. Pat Pending (talk) 23:35, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
WP:VERIFIABILITY does not require that a source be linked directly. WP:PROVEIT states that...
It is not necessary that the source be findable instantly by any reader, merely that it be demonstrably findable (for instance, by library or archive request...)
I was helpful enough to point you directly at the source, and I suggested you might try LexisNexis if you want to read the article yourself. So let me repeat, there is no stipulated condition that I provide you with a free copy of said piece. Understand?
WP:PROVEIT goes on to say...
If a reliable source is not readily available (e.g., freely accessible online), the editor inserting or restoring the challenged material should be able to provide page numbers and/or direct quotes from the original text supporting the material, upon request. (emphasis mine)
This is easy because I have access to the aforementioned article. It would take me less than two minutes to put it in quotes. However, I am not compelled to do this, simply because the subject matter itself is not in dispute, since you implicitly acknowledge that The Fields of Anfield Road is sung by Liverpool supporters after being adapted from The Fields of Athenry. If you are not aware of this fact, then please make it clear in your next reply. ~ smb 00:10, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't reference anything at all. All it does is redirect you to the wikipedia article on the history of the Irish Independent. The mention of it has no place in the article (particularly as you have gone up and set up your own article). I have also checked the unison.ie website which archives all issues of the Irish Independent and there is not said article. Therefore it should be removed. FearSneachta (talk) 12:16, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You are not looking hard enough. This piece is accessable on the web. [5] Do not remove reliably sourced information from this page. Thankyou. — eon, 17:07, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Challenged material[edit]

Under Sporting anthem, it reads...

The Fields of Anfield Road is sung by Liverpool supporters to the same tune, but with suitably adapted lyrics referencing their history and stadium.

User:Pat Pending, can you please state clearly so as to avoid any misunderstanding, exactly *what part* of this statement you are challenging. Thankyou. ~ smb 22:38, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Trevalyn's corn[edit]

Isn't this a reference to attacks on food convoys and grain ships during the famine years? (83.13.39.98 (talk) 19:06, 8 June 2008 (UTC))[reply]

Dan White[edit]

Isn't this the song that Dan White, the Moscone/Milk assassin, listened to? Should this be included and if so, where? 24.3.14.157 (talk) 09:44, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sporting anthem - Celtic FC[edit]

I have reverted this section, giving a reference re Celtic fans.

The Herald article refers to the song being sung at a Celtic-Borussia Dortmund match. As far as I can tell, the most recent game between the 2 clubs was in 1992, so the song was already popular with Celtic fans by then.

E0N, if Irish teams were indeed "singing this long before Celtic", please provide a citation before reverting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.235.176.162 (talk) 20:04, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't think the origin of the song, and its adoption at Irish games, was controversial. Nor apparently the editor who originally inserted the text (it wasn't me). I agree this statement needs to be referenced, now that it is challenged. You have supplied a source that confirms Scottish team Celtic adopted this song at an unspecified point in time. As above, this same source does not support the statement that Celtic were the first team to sing this song at a sports venue; only that they were planning to sing it, and that Pete St. John welcomed it. Because Wikipedia doesn't allow original research, I will revert, and add a tag that requires the entire section to be referenced. Please allow time for other editors to respond to the request, providing sources wherever necessary. — eon, 21:35, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

E0N, I agree, the inference that Celtic fans were singing this since 1992 was original research and should be discounted. However, the article cited is clear that the song had been popular with Celtic fans for "a few years" before 1996, therefore the current wording seems correct, given the absence of sources dating the song's adoption by any of the other teams listed.

Your previous edit summary (which, to me, sounds like original research) stated "Irish sports fans were singing this long before Celtic, so we need to find wording that communicates this relaity". If that's the case (and you may well be right) then it should be easy to find sources to confirm this.Hippo43 (talk) 11:24, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We need only find sources that support the wording in the main body, not my edit summary (which is necessary abbreviated). With that in mind, there is a piece in the Irish Independent that associates the song most immediately with Munster Rugby and other Irish rugby union teams, before Celtic FC. [6] The article does not purport to be a definitive history of the song, but it does place the aforementioned sports teams ahead of Celtic. There is also ambiguous references to the song at Hurling games throughout the 1990s, but these do not broach the topic of how it came to be sang, by whom first, and when; nor do I think it likely we will ever find such an article. So at this moment in time, the Irish Independent is the strongest reference we have, without engaging in original research. What do you suggest by way of compromise? — eon, 12:36, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed - your edit summary need not be sourced, but it does reflect the thinking behind the edit. That assertion (that Irish fans sang the song before Celtic fans) still appears unsubstantiated to me.

You may be right, but the Irish Independent article does not make any reference to how long each team's fans have used the song. Although it mentions these Irish teams first (in the same sentence as Celtic) it states only that the song is associated with all 4 teams. We probably shouldn't read anything (ie no original research) into the order of the teams given by the Irish Independent article - it might be, for example, that the Irish teams are mentioned first because it's an Irish paper!

Its sentence "The song is associated with the Munster, London Irish and Irish rugby union teams, and Celtic FC." gives no information on what kind of association they are talking about. The Herald article is clear that the song is very popular among Celtic's fans.

It also makes no reference to the Irish football team or Galway, or Gaelic games at all, though, again, it may be the case that the song is indeed popular there.

I don't agree that the Irish Independent article is a stronger source than the Herald's. There are two sources about the link between Celtic and the song. Both are newspaper articles, so of similar value or strength, and the Herald is the only one which goes into any detail about the link between the song and the club. It is also considerably older, placing the link with Celtic in the early 1990's (ie "a few years" before its publication in 1996), while the Irish independent (in 2006) makes no reference to when the song was adopted by anyone.

If we are to be meticulous about only using sourced infornation, and preserving the order written in the Irish Independent, I suggest the article should read -

"The song has long been an anthem of fans of Celtic F.C.[4,5]. It is also associated with the Irish rugby union team Munster, English rugby union team London Irish and the Ireland national rugby union team.[5]

"The Fields of Anfield Road" is sung by Liverpool supporters to the same tune, but with suitably adapted lyrics referencing their history and stadium.[5]

At the Beijing Olympics boxing final featuring Irish boxer Kenny Egan, Tom Humphries of the Irish Times noted, 

   "By the time Egan and Zhang emerged the great rhythmic roars of "Zhang! Zhang! Zhang!" competed to drown out the lusty warblings of a large Irish contingent who returned to singing of the problems of social isolation in rural Athenry.[2]"

"

If you prefer to be more specific about using dates from sources, I would change the first paragraph to read "The song has been an anthem of fans of Celtic F.C.[4,5] since the early 1990's. Since 2006 it has also been associated with the Irish rugby union team Munster, English rugby union team London Irish and the Ireland national rugby union team." I think this sounds daft and the first suggestion would be better.

Having said all this, I realise there may be other sources out there which change the picture and am happy to support changing the article if they are cited.Hippo43 (talk) 13:45, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One more source, though I'm not sure how best to cite this - track listing for CD of Celtic songs published in 1994 - http://www.tagtuner.com/music/albums/Various/The-Celtic-Songs-EP/album-v21a331. Hippo43 (talk) 14:05, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A track listing is not a reliable third-party source -- if it were, this debate would be over, because I simply would adduce a number of pieces like this. [7] We must follow guidelines. So here instead is a published source that observes Republic of Ireland national football team fans singing this song before and/or during the 1990 World Cup:
"When she was elected President of Ireland in November 1990, Mary Robinson made a big fuss of our great 'diaspora', as she called them, placing a perpetual light in a window of her official residence in order to welcome such people 'home'. At international matches, Irish football fans sang poignant verses of 'The Fields of Athenry', a lament about loss and forced migration that became the team's unofficial anthem. It alternated with the more boisterous if unlikely chant, 'Ole, ole, ole', with its accompanying Mexican wave. The euphoria that gripped Ireland as Jack's army advanced is linked in many people's minds with a growing sense of national self-confidence..." (Kenny, Colum. Moments that Changed Us, Gill & Macmillan, 2005)
This source places the Irish national football team ahead of the Scottish club team, do you agree? Remember also that the The Glasgow Herald article says that the song had "grown in popularity" with Celtic fans from around 1993 to the time of publication, in 1996.
I will endeavour to find a source for other Irish teams, but it is not easy because I don't think anyone could have envisioned Celtic fans laying claim to something that self-evidentially emerged elsewhere. I'm going to revert on this basis, because I think it is only fair that you give other editors time to respond to the dispute, providing sources wherever necessary. — eon, 19:15, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not looking for an edit war, or an endlessly pedantic article, but I can't see how removing sourced material is better than adding sources as they are found by editors. To give others time to find sources that they haven't been diligent enough to find in the past?

Of course a track listing of a CD is not a reliable source, that's why I didn't add it to the article. However it does, along with the numerous other albums of Celtic football songs which feature TFOA, have value in this discussion page, as does the link you provided re hurling. This isn't about 'claiming' this song for anyone, but I've had a quick look, and I haven't found any Munster or Irish rugby albums out there so far, which suggests to me that it may be more important to Celtic fans.

I don't think your opinion that "it is not easy [to find sources] because I don't think anyone could have envisioned Celtic fans laying claim to something that self-evidentially emerged elsewhere" is consistent with policy - or with your view that "We must follow guidelines."

As I've repeatedly said, I may be wrong, and have added the source you cited about the Irish football team, before the mention of Celtic. If you have others, add them, but please stop removing material with verifiable sources in favour of unverified things you believe are "self-evidential".Hippo43 (talk) 22:19, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is a collaboration, and in every non-living person dispute like this, it is good practice to tag the section thereby allowing other editors time to find references. The original wording is neither harmful nor absurd on its face (i.e. that an Irish folk song about an Irish famine written by an Irishman should be sung at various Irish venues first). The fact template is provided exactly for situations like this: To alert editors that a statement is challenged and now requires a citation. The tag is not for decoration; it was created for this specific purpose. I do not have access to a library or a comprehensive online database like LexisNexis, but it is not unreasonable to assume that another editor might have access. You are not acting within the spirit of this guide. Indeed, your unwillingness to cooperate leads me to believe you are more interested in disproving my previous edit summary, promoting one sports team in particular, lending greater historical significance than might be accurate. — eon, 14:09, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have never tried to say anyone adopted this song 'first' or 'before anyone else'. However, it is verifiably the case that the song has "long been an anthem of Celtic fans". That remains true whether hurling/Munster/Ireland fans sang it first in 1979 or 1995.

It seems clear that you are keen to remove this fact, as shown by your earlier edit summary and your repeated removal of my sourced material. Poor quality sources like this [1] should help make it clear that Celtic fans long ago adopted this song, and that there may be better quality sources which help confirm this. Given that many of Celtic's estimated 9m fans are Irish or of Irish descent, this shouldn't be surprising.

Other editors, including myself, have not yet found sources confirming when the song was adopted by others. As I've already shown, by inserting your reference re the Irish football team, I'm more than happy to support changes to the article when they're supported by research. By my "unwillingness to cooperate" do you mean inserting sources found by you and objecting to you removing my referenced material?

In the discussion above (17:07, 30 July 2008), someone called eon (are you perhaps related?) said "Do not remove reliably sourced information from this page. Thankyou." Sounds like good advice.Hippo43 (talk) 15:58, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My argument for reverting and tagging the disputed section is spelt out clearly on this talk page. I am not proposing that we remove reliably sourced information from this or any other page; rather, it was simply requested that you provide editors with clear notice that citations are requested for material they may not previously have considered to be controversial. Final wording could then be agreed upon if/when additional references are forthcoming after a reasonable period of time. If no references are produced, or if nobody cares to look for them, then we rework the section according to what we have. That is standard practice where there is some disagreement. The template pointed at above often defuses edit wars. For some reason you have chosen not to address directly this very point. — eon, 17:11, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"I am not proposing that we remove reliably sourced information from this or any other page" You have removed correctly sourced material twice.

To reiterate - I don't agree that we should remove material that is sourced while we wait for others to maybe find more. As I've stated above, "it is verifiably the case that the song has "long been an anthem of Celtic fans"." This will still be true no matter what any of us find re Gaelic games etc. If you disagree, please explain why. I see no need to tag the whole section as disputed, only specifics which aren't currently addressed by sources.

The current wording on Munster etc is supported by the source (Irish Independent) which you defended in the 'Anfield Road' discussion above. I don't see why we should rely on that source for one part of this section and go beyond it for another.

As far as I can see, the template does not support reverting thus removing material that is properly sourced. I've added and tagged a reference to Galway & Gaelic games. This keeps the currently sourced material and gives others a chance to find material supporting this info.Hippo43 (talk) 17:49, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"You have removed correctly sourced material twice." It is hard to assume good faith when you so brazenly distort my position. Please read my last response in its entirety. I proposed that all reliably sourced information be retained. It was hoped that you would respond to reason and collaborate by first allowing editors time to support the original wording. And if after a short period of time no additional sources are forthcoming, then we rework the section according to what we have (i.e. keep everything that has a source). This is clearly a waste of time. — eon, 00:00, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I stopped assuming good faith on your part some time ago, and your actions have made your position clear enough. You have reverted my sourced edits several times - an action not supported by the template you have used in justification.

You wrote (15 September) “I didn't think the origin of the song, and its adoption at Irish games, was controversial.” I’m sure you did, because you had already reverted this same point numerous times over the past few months.

You also wrote “Nor apparently the editor who originally inserted the text (it wasn't me).” As far as I can see, it was you who inserted this text. On 19 May you changed my edit, stating that “Irish teams were singing this years before Celtic”, without citing anything to support your claim. You have since asked me to allow “editors time to support the original wording”, yet the original wording was mine, and was changed by you.

On 24 May you removed Barryrob’s edit on the grounds that “Irish sports fans were singing this long before Celtic, so we need to find wording that communicates this relaity”. You didn’t provide a source.

On 6 June & 25 June you again inserted the word “later”. Still no source. The Irish Independent article, already used as a source within this section, makes no such distinction.

You have had 4 months to find sources supporting your opinion, and haven’t been able to back it up. Hippo43 (talk) 20:14, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You are all over the place.
(1) I have reverted not one single edit that links this song with Irish sports teams. Your accusation is unsupported. Please produce diffs.
(2) The statement that "The Fields of Athenry" is sung at London Irish rugby club was added by editor Skaffman. [8] The connection with Irish rugby union teams was made by editor Stubacca. [9] The association with Munster rugby was observed and noted by an unknown contributor. [10] The link with Galway and Gaelic games supporters was made by an anonymous editor posting from the University of Limerick. [11] These observations were made before I edited the page for the very first time in November 2007.
(2b) I don't follow this at all. Are you saying you are the editor previously known as Barryrob?
(3) I did produce a reference when the issue of sourcing was raised on the talk page for the very first time. [12] It was to be hoped that you would collaborate and flag the section, providing a small amount of time for other editors to find sources for their not unreasonable edits.
So based on a misreading of the situation you stopped assuming good faith some time ago. That sounds about right. — eon, 21:58, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1. To my comment above “if Irish teams were indeed "singing this long before Celtic", please provide a citation before reverting” you replied “I didn't think the origin of the song, and its adoption at Irish games, was controversial.”

Yet you had 4 times changed the article regarding when the song was adopted by Celtic and various Irish teams, so you were obviously aware that other editors disagreed with you.[13] [14] [15] [16]

2. You’re right. My mistake

2b. No, I didn't say I was the same user. This is when you inserted “in more recent years”, without giving a source. [17] (based on the claim that “Irish sports fans were singing this long before Celtic, so we need to find wording that communicates this relaity”)

3. You produced a source in your third reply to this section, not when it was raised for the very first time, and only after removing sourced material. Again, you cited the Template:Fact, which doesn’t support removing referenced material in favour of waiting for others to find sources.

When you disagreed with other editors’ contributions in the examples I mentioned above, you didn’t tag their edits and allow them time to find sources - you removed them, using a justification that you haven’t yet been able to confirm with sources of your own. Hippo43 (talk) 23:15, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Citation[edit]

The title of The Glasgow Herald piece is required. Has anyone access to LexisNexis? — eon, 00:19, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This article appeared in The Herald - the newspaper changed its title in 1992. Hippo43 (talk) 07:24, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We still need the title and author of the piece, as per WP:V. — eon, 19:26, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, and it will be easier to find if editors are looking in the right place. Hippo43 (talk) 19:55, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Citation (2)[edit]

Can anyone provide page numbers for this source? Kenny, Colum. Moments that Changed Us, Gill & Macmillan, 2005 Hippo43 (talk) 19:58, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have a page number, but an advanced Google Books search will verify the source. [18] — eon, 21:58, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tommy Sheridan[edit]

"Sheridan in row over song on Big Brother". --Mais oui! (talk) 15:51, 7 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Fields of Ballynafeigh[edit]

I suggest that 'The Fields of Ballnafeigh' deserves it's own page. Any takers? RicoRichmond (talk) 17:55, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

no 89.101.226.42 (talk) 21:17, 25 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

republican lyrics in the verses[edit]

(Not sure if I should bring this up as it does conflict with my personal views but in order to help wikipedia...) There is also an extra republican lyric I've noticed is sometimes sung during the 2nd verse after the Crown line (which I won't mention the republican addition by name) that you can hear for yourselves here. Does anyone think that this should be included? The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 17:36, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Fuck the crown" should definitely be included if it can be reliably sourced. Does anyone know any reliable sources that include "Fuck the crown", if the reliable source is to do with Celtic fans singing "Fuck the crown" that would be even better. If "Fuck the crown" can be reliably sourced, I assume you would have no objection to the inclusion of "Fuck the crown" The C of E? O Fenian (talk) 20:50, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't have brought it up if I didn't feel it wouldn't help Wikipedia. Of Course as you well know, I don't like it as it really does go against my views but if it is included I will not take responsibility for it but I have included a source in my first paragraph but there is another here (Again I don't approve but if it helps Wikipedia...). On another note there is the Loyalist song Fathers Advice that is set to this tune (like Fields of Anfield Road) which I think would make a good inclusion (which themselves also have added lyrics that cause offense to some like the above one. the line is "F*** Bobby Sands, He's Dead") here for the lyrics and here for the additional line. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 08:00, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have removed the current version of the Republican chorus section. While I know it is true, it was not reliably sourced to begin with. O Fenian (talk) 15:44, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And I have put them back in, with a new source (no 13). The section is now more than adequately sourced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.166.160.136 (talk) 16:59, 5 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Considering the one new (primary) source did not even source the sentence you added it to, it is not "adequately sourced". If this alternate version is worthy of inclusion, it should have been dealt with by reliable secondary sources. O Fenian (talk) 17:31, 5 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
These are the lyrics from Gary Og:

Low lie the Fields of Athenry Where once we watched the small free birds fly (ooh baby let the free birds fly) Our love was on the wing (Sinn Féin) We had dreams and songs to sing (The I.R.A.) It's so lonely 'round the Fields of Athenry

These are the lyrics in this article:

Low lie the fields of Athenry Where once we watched the small free birds fly [Hey baby let the free birds fly!] Our love was on the wing [Sinn Féin!] We had dreams and songs to sing [I.R.A.!] It's so lonely 'round the fields of Athenry

The wording is pretty much EXACTLY the same, with the exception for ""Hey baby" instead of "ooh baby", which can easily be edited. So there is no discrepancy between the source and the text in the article.

The section we are discussing claims that this is frequently sung by the audience when REBEL bands are performing the song - Gary Og is a fairly prominent rebel artist, so the lyrics on his site is reliable enough to back up the claim that this is done in performances by REBEL bands. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.166.160.136 (talk) 14:44, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The sources provided are not close to adequate. YouTube links and pages that reproduce possibly copyrighted lyrics are not reliable sources. And lyrics should not be reproduced, in toto, on the article page. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 15:04, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The reference was added to the sentence "When performed by rebel bands, a republican version of the chorus is frequently sung, with the audience chanting back at the performer". It does not source that sentence. Triskelle is no use as a source, even ignoring that they should not be linked to due to their infringement of copyright by the mass re-posting of lyrics. According to this page "Furthermore we emphasise that this website is a hobby. Of course we do our utmost to provide correct information to the visitors of our website, but we are no scientists. Hence, we do not guarantee the correctness of the information provided". It is not a reliable source. I repeat my comment that if the republican chorus is so important to include it will have been covered in reliable secondary sources, not primary sources such as an artist's website or Youtube videos. O Fenian (talk) 18:52, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4156/is_20060108/ai_n15989436/ <- The Sunday herald http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-9460103/Celtic-stars-caught-up-in.html <- Goliath http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=354350&cc=5739 <- Soccernet http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/33626/Celtic-players-IRA-blast.html <- The Sun http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2007/11/21/celtic-disown-rebel-fans-chief-in-ira-row-86908-20137880/ The Daily Record "Campbell insisted he wasn't referring to songs such as the Fields Of Athenry - about the 1840s Irish famine - but instead to people "actually chanting in support of the IRA"."

...and plenty more secondary sources, including the BBC, are available to confirm this incident. So the claim that there exists a republican version that includes pro-IRA-chants is obviously well-documented. If the songs appearance in films is deemed significant enough to be included in the article, then this incident DEFINITELY is significant enough. You just let me know which one of these sources you prefer, and I'll update. Also: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Celtic+stars+deny+IRA+chant%3B+SINGING+HOOPS+PLAYERS+CAUGHT+IN...-a0140602914 http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-140602914.html "Both players join in a rendition of the Fields Of Athenry. The song, a favourite of the Glasgow club's fans, is punctuated by shouts of "IRA" and …" 

 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.166.160.136 (talk) 18:02, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the text beginning "When performed by rebel bands..." should not be included, not only for the reasons given above, but simply because this is trivia. There are probably hundreds (thousands?) of songs whose lyrics have been modified or added to for all kinds of reasons, and it would be ridiculous to include this information in an encyclopedia. Hohenloh + 04:32, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The article already has information regarding a Liverpool version, a reggea version, a punk version, and a special version by the Dropkick Murphys (sourced only by their own website, so there is obviously not a problem with an artist website as a source!) so this isn't the only version mentioned by the article. More importantly, the republican version is significantly more controversial than the others, and singing the republican chants is a punishable offence in some areas. Obviously, this is significant enough to merit the inclusion.

Can I just say the following to whoever is objecting to the inclusion of the *fact* that audiences sometimes chant "IRA" back when bands play of Fields of Athenrye: your objection is not only unfounded as shown by the articles above, but it is suppressing important and useful information. My band recently performed this song in a very normal Irish pub in England on St Patrick's Day; we learned the song because we knew it was a popular Irish song - we are not a rebel band!! I was taken aback by literally half the pub or so, shouting back "IRA" at us. I repeat, the audience were everyday Irish young people in an Irish pub in England. I had observed people do this once in the past but assumed it was just a tiny handful of people that would do that. I can only assume that the *real* objection to mentioning this behaviour in the Wikipedia article, is on the basis of some kind of skewed ethical argument which isn't being spelt out in so many words - but if so, you are wrong. For example, to someone like me it would have been very helpful to have this fact included and discussed (e.g. history and reasons), because then I could have been forearmed and forewarned, and we might have even chosen not to play the song (although it isn't a sectarian song in itself) or at least we could have been prepared for the reaction. And by the way, our experience goes to show the complete nonsense in the attempt to marginalise this phenomenon by claiming that audiences only sing it back to "rebel" performers. Suppressing the facts is generally not a good way to encourage good ethics. Can someone please sort it out on the main page, it's very disappointing as Wikipedia is usually an excellent resource. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.253.77.45 (talk) 12:58, 18 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

My fellow-musicians and I have performed this song hundreds of times around Ireland and I have heard "IRA" being sung only on a small minority of occasions, though "baby let the free birds fly" is more often sung. There are other local variations (as I mentioned above). Hohenloh + 17:34, 18 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Real-life Tipperary couple: John and Mary Walsh, Mary got sent to penal colony 175 yrs ago[edit]

Pete St John wrote a preface to his song to publicize a real-life occurrence, which apparently happened in 1843. Mary Walsh was sent to a penal colony in Tasmania in 1843, separating her from John Walsh and her sons in Clonmel. It is unknown whether a recently found (in 2006) letter from John to Mary reached her.[2] Pete St John is asking that his preface about John and Mary Walsh be read before his song gets sung, and that any corroborating information be spread about their fates. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 22:40, 17 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ http://www.kerrydalestreet.com/page/Fields+of+Athenry+-+Song?t=anon
  2. ^ [https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/penal-colony-wife-gets-fresh-fields-of-athenry-verse-26413302.html Penal colony wife gets fresh Fields of Athenry verse June 18 2006 12:11 AM]
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