Talk:The God Delusion

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Former good article nominee The God Delusion was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
January 8, 2008 Good article nominee Not listed

Table of contents of the book[edit]

Hello everyone. The article contains the table of contents of the book as a hidden table in the article. As someone deleted it, I would like to express here the fact that this is useful information to get a comprehensive idea of the content and structure of the book which the whole article is about. And the fact that is is actually hidden and use only one line of space should make it acceptable for everyone. What do you think? Latheae smitherii (talk) 15:10, 16 January 2015 (UTC).

We don't need a copy paste of the TOC. Plus, please read WP:BRD. This is new content, it has been reverted, there is no consensus for its addition, please do not re add it without consensus. Thank you. Dbrodbeck (talk) 15:37, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
Should I recommend you to read WP:ROWN and ask you to tell me where is the consensus for deletion? I do not understand why this single line of useful content is so hard to accept for you... Latheae smitherii (talk) 15:55, 16 January 2015 (UTC).
Please don't edit war. The content has just been added and has been reverted by more than one editor. There is no consensus to add it. It can be tough to learn how things work around here as you have been here for a bit over an hour I realize it can be a bit intimidating, it was for me too. Don't take people changing stuff personally. Yes aware of the link you have provided. Thanks. Dbrodbeck (talk) 16:13, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
I'm concerned that adding the book's exact TOC, hidden or not, violates WP:NFC: it appears to be an "excessively long copyrighted excerpt" that is better handled as a summary. Which the entry already does. Barte (talk) 15:59, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
Don't you think that the table of contents is something that is typically open-access even when the book is not? It is often freely available on-line even when other parts of the book are not. In this case, it is (see the editor, Google books and this link). Latheae smitherii (talk) 19:27, 16 January 2015 (UTC). Updated at 21:06.

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I don't think there's a copyright issue with the table of contents, but there's a stylistic question. In my experience adding a table of contents in its entirety falls under WP:INDISCRIMINATE. That it is "useful" does not mean it's encyclopedic. Some articles end up talking about each and every chapter just because the book is so notable there exist multiple sources about each part. That said, I cannot seem to find any guideline (from the mos or otherwise) which specifically addresses this. --— Rhododendrites talk \\ 19:48, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

I disagree. The TOC is part of the book's copyrighted content and therefore is subject to Wikipedia's rigorous fair use practices. Note the note on the TOC page linked above: "Pages displayed by permission of Houghton Mifflin Harcourt." Followed by a copyright notice. Barte (talk) 19:57, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
Whether or not it is copyrighted Wikipedia is not a guide. It is not needed and having an entire collapsed section is stylistically unattractive.Charles (talk) 23:19, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
The rules of our encyclopaedia do allow this kind of lists (WP:5P, WP:L, etc.) and I do not think that there is a copyright issue here. The only question is that not everyone think it is very useful. I do think that this is interesting for many people. Some of you do not think that it looks so good; I would agree it it were uncollapsed, however a collapsed list does not use excessive space. If the issue is its colour, we can change it to something lighter. What do you think? Latheae smitherii (talk) 08:22, 17 January 2015 (UTC).
A list of chapters probably isn't copyrightable, since it's a simple list of information; a detailed list like this might well be. It's not obviously not copyrightable. Get consensus at WP:NFCR first, then try to convince people here that it's worth including. Guettarda (talk) 15:26, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
This material has been added [1] very recently. We need consensus to add stuff, not for deleting it. It should be deleted until there is consensus to add it, per WP:BRD, not, as stated in the edit summary for re adding it [2] keep it until there is consensus to remove it. Latheae smitten, I would appreciate it if you self reverted. Thank you. Dbrodbeck (talk) 14:37, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
Why do you say that a consensus is necessary to add this? There is nothing controversial here, no violation of Wikipedia's guidelines, no copyright issue or significant part of the article affected... It is only a little useful information that takes no space but provides a useful summary of the book. Why do you fight this? Latheae smitherii (talk) 19:04, 17 January 2015 (UTC).
Per my comment above, I do suspect that there are copyright issues. Guettarda (talk) 19:08, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
About the use, if you personally need this information, you should simply not expand the hidden table and continue to read the article noramlly, I do not see any issue here. About the copyright, ask advice of experts if you think it is useful. I do think that it is legal. And it is certainly not the first complete table of contents of a book included in our encyclopaedia (e.g. The World Until Yesterday). Latheae smitherii (talk) 19:17, 17 January 2015 (UTC).
The onus is on the person adding the content - i.e., you. I have provided you a link to the correct place for that discussion. Guettarda (talk) 19:26, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
I posted a message on the page you recommended. Latheae smitherii (talk) 19:33, 17 January 2015 (UTC).
'Why do you say that a consensus is necessary to add this?' See WP:CONSENSUS. Also, I did not indent my comments for a reason, please don't do that again, thanks. Dbrodbeck (talk) 21:16, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── There's an administrator reply to the the NFCR query. Based on that, I think the TOC, with subchapters or without, should be omitted. Yes it's additional information. But no, it's not crucial here, given the amount of summary material the article already contains. Barte (talk) 21:49, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Why are you so intolerant? Don't you think that a much shorter table of contents, without subtitles, would be a good compromise in order to take in accounts all opinions expressed here? Latheae smitherii (talk) 10:16, 18 January 2015 (UTC).
I fail to see any intolerance. I do see a case of WP:IDHT though. Dbrodbeck (talk) 15:26, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
It's not intolerance. As above, consensus and playing it safe regarding copyright are two basic Wikipedia principles. Given that 5-6 (depending on whether we count the noticeboard) have objected and only one supports it, there seems to be pretty clear consensus to remove it. --— Rhododendrites talk \\ 15:55, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

FYI a major participant in this thread, Latheae smitherii, was blocked at SPI. --— Rhododendrites talk \\ 04:06, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Quote[edit]

This article needs a book quote. I say go big, what do you say ?

  • The fact that something is written down is persuasive to people not used to asking questions like: ‘Who wrote it, and when?’ ‘How did they know what to write?’ ‘Did they, in their time, really mean what we, in our time, understand them to be saying?’ ‘Were they unbiased observers, or did they have an agenda that coloured their writing?’ Ever since the nineteenth century, scholarly theologians have made an overwhelming case that the gospels are not reliable accounts of what happened in the history of the real world. All were written long after the death of Jesus, and also after the epistles of Paul, which mention almost none of the alleged facts of Jesus’ life.

or shorter;

  • Ever since the nineteenth century, scholarly theologians have made an overwhelming case that the gospels are not reliable accounts of what happened in the history of the real world. All were written long after the death of Jesus, and also after the epistles of Paul, which mention almost none of the alleged facts of Jesus’ life.

or even shorter;

  • The gospels are not reliable accounts of what happened in the history of the real world. All were written long after the death of Jesus, and also after the epistles of Paul, which mention almost none of the alleged facts of Jesus’ life. (Dawkins 2006, p. 118. The God Delusion)

74.136.159.171 (talk) 06:52, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

That's not really the purpose of an encyclopedic article. A book review or a fan page may well have significant quotes, but more seems unnecessary here. Johnuniq (talk) 10:06, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
Agreed, I don't think we need them. Dbrodbeck (talk) 13:37, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

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External links modified[edit]

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See also[edit]

DVdm, there is no reason for this article to link to Atheism: The Case Against God or The Future of an Illusion. Neither book has anything to do with The God Delusion: Dawkins does not quote them in his text, or list them in his bibliography. The purpose of a see also section is not to provide links to every article about a similar topic - which would be confusing and unmanageable - simply to provide a short list of especially relevant links. If readers happen to be interested in other books arguing for atheism, then the appropriate way to direct them to those articles is through categories. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 08:32, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

I'd agree if there were no articles about the books, but there are. And see also MOS:SEEALSO, which is "A bulleted list, preferably alphabetized, of internal links to related Wikipedia articles." I think these are indeed related Wikipedia articles. - DVdm (talk) 09:44, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
Well, you're wrong, they aren't. As I just explained, Dawkins does not cite or refer to either Smith's book or Freud's. That is why linking the books together through categories is appropriate, rather than placing items in "see also" sections on the grounds that they have some kind of extremely general resemblance to Dawkins' book. Your comment that you would agree with me "if there were no articles about the books" makes no sense whatever. It is only because there are articles about the books that they can be placed within categories. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 04:39, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
Are you saying that a link should not be in see also unless the work described in the article refers to the linked item? That view does not seem to be supported by WP:SEEALSO which includes "might be only indirectly related to the topic" and "should reflect the links that would be present in a comprehensive article on the topic". There is no relevant rule other than what WP:SEEALSO says about editorial judgment and common sense. Johnuniq (talk) 04:52, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
Yes, if Dawkins would have referred to the books, that could be mentioned in the article, and the books referred to by wp:wikilink. As this is not the case, the only place to mention them, is, by design, in the See also section. - DVdm (talk) 08:28, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
Sure, WP:ALSO states that, 'The links in the "See also" section might be only indirectly related to the topic of the article because one purpose of "See also" links is to enable readers to explore tangentially related topics.' So obviously links to loosely connected subjects are permitted. That does not mean that they are obligatory, however. Whether to include them or not is ultimately an editorial decision. Although the issue isn't of crucial importance, I would not myself include either the link to Smith's book or Freud's here. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 00:12, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
Indeed, but it looks like there is no consensus to remove them, "which normally results in the article, page, image, or other content being kept." - DVdm (talk) 07:20, 6 August 2016 (UTC)