Talk:The Pentecostal Mission
|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the The Pentecostal Mission article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
|WikiProject Christianity / India / Charismatic||(Rated C-class)|
|WikiProject India / Tamil Nadu||(Rated C-class, Low-importance)|
- 1 [Untitled]
- 2 False informations
- 3 other details about The Pentecostal Mission
- 4 Comments from the main page
- 5 Can the photo be removed?
- 6 A lot of things left out.
- 7 About International Convention
- 8 Article needs significant clean up
- 9 Correct the article and write it properly.
- 10 To TPM with love
- 11 Edit Warring
- 12 Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 March 2017
- 13 I've added certain details about TPM from unbiased sources
- 14 Unsubstantiated info about muder
- 15 Semi-protected edit request on 5 April 2017
- 16 POV editing
- 17 Semi-protected edit request on 12 April 2017
- 18 Semi-protected edit request on 12 April 2017
- 19 What is the source for claiming this church has 20 million members?
Hi, as I was reading the article I noticed a lot of statements that are not right or either not supported by any link or citiations. Please note that in the History section there are aslo a lot of mistakes. Whoever the user is, if you have something aganist the church or aganist TPM then please not this that this not a place for you to show anger or frustration aganist this church. This just an article page where the informations are found. This is just an encylopedia where you get informations not a debatable place. So if you have any comments or points to make note of please do so in the disscussion page and nto in the main article page. As I already mentioned, there are users who are also faking my name and creating a confusion in this talk page. Some of the comments I viewed and I was schoked to see the way they have done it. I hace also informed Onrem about this. Please other users if you don't have an ID then please do not fake others ID and name. It is not good for you. This is my humble request to all the readers and other who are editing and working on this article. Thanks you. rencin24 06:55, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Pastor's names after that misprinted as all led a life which was against the will of God. It should be as Led a life according to the will of God.13.02.2012 Ernest - sri Lanka — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 15:41, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
other details about The Pentecostal Mission
Hi,this is dinesh from london.i have some more details to add on to u r wikipedia,tpm page.hope u do so. the church has faith homes in Italy as well. they publish english magazines such as; "the voice of pentecost"-from india "pentecostal messenger" -from malaysia "the youth herald" -from singapore "pilgrims journal" -from USA "power divine" -from srilanka and "trumpet of the lord" -from U.K.
And they ve been publishing magazines,books,tracts,cassettes and cds in 41 different languages.u already have some indian languages.i ve given below some other foreign languages; nepali,sinhala,french,spanish,german,italian,africans,& swidish.
they now have 1642 faith homes,5695 full time workers,and nearly 2 million believers world wide.
Comments from the main page
I have moved the comments from the main page to the discussion page. Whoever it is that's wanting to post something that is a comment please do so in this talk page. The main page is for information alone, not for your discrimination and condemnations rencin24 07:41, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Can the photo be removed?
Whoever is that who added the photo of Pas. Don, can you please remove the photo? It is strictly something "anti-TPM" to display photos of pastors anywhere —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnnelson.j (talk • contribs) 16:45, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
Hi this is Dinesh.I can see a brother talking about not to display photoes of TPM pastors.But the pentecostal mission never says that statement.and tpm used to publish pastor`s photoes in their publications,like magazines and books.Brother who wrote this might have seen some photoes of the chief pastors,who were passed away,in the voice of pentecost,pilgrims journal,and some other magazines and books. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 01:22, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
A lot of things left out.
When you did the doctrines section, there are many things left out. Whoever did this section needs to go back and do there research. Being out of the church now and looking at how much they try to control your life, this is not what Jesus did. It is easy to preach what you want from the bible. Going to another church does not mean you are a sinner or back sliding. I have become closer to God since I left and have learned how to be a better Christian. People need to stop looking to man for guidance and look to God. In the end days many shall be misled. For this reason you should never fully trust man, but wait on God. Also, the doctrine about celibacy my be a rule but it is not practiced. I have seen many ministers trying to lure the opposite sex to start a relation. I myself have been abused at a young age by a minister. Non of this will ever be heard from the ministry because this will make them look bad. How can things go on without accountability to anyone? It is all pushed under a rug and the believers will never know. This is wrong and God will judge.
- If there are changes that need to made, and they are verifiable, feel free to fix the article yourself. Please be sure to maintain a neutral point of view. --Onorem♠Dil 16:00, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Dear Friend, No matter what happens things that are to be clearly put should be put in the information article. Other personal problems should not be combined with the main article. Rencin Matthew (talk) 14:49, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
About International Convention
Every Year held International (march month) convention at IBR, Near Tambaram, chennai, Tamilnadu, India. Very big Worship hall, All peoples gathered. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 11:21, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
Article needs significant clean up
While reading this article I noted a blatant disregard for objectivity and neutrality. Furthermore the history section is direct plagiarism of the article source document number , and every instance of the notation “citation needed” is preceded by a factual inaccuracy. The following is a list of items that should definitely be cleared up:
1.History section; plagiarized sentence: “According to historian, somarathna , "The Ceylon Pentecostal Mission owes its origin to the ministry of Walter Clifford."” Is a direct copy of the same sentence on page 11 of source article , the plagiarized portion is without appropriate quotations or citation.
2.History section; plagiarized sentence: “The church also instituted indigenous forms of worship”, cites  as its source, but is a direct copy of the sentence “The CPM also instituted indigenous forms of worship” which is taken from source article  once again without appropriate quotation markings or citation.
3.Ministerial Responsibilities section; factual inaccuracy: the statement “including disposal of private possessions” is simply not true. All ministers, in fact, do have any number of accumulated personal private possessions – such as iPods, smart phones, laptops etc. Disposal of private possessions is not a requirement or an accepted responsibility and is certainly not practiced.
4.Ministerial Responsibilities section; factual inaccuracy: “TPM churches are run by full-time ministers who are celibate”. In the list of chief pastors – Pastor Freddy Paul, was the son of the founder Paul. How could that be possible if the ministers in charge were all celebrate? Furthermore, Pastor Shaji Managalath, listed in the list of current pastors also had a child while in charge of a church, there are numerous other examples.
5.Ministerial Responsibilities section; factual inaccuracy: “Married couples who enter full-time ministry will have to surrender their marital privileges and become celibate, and will be sent to different locations by the TPM leadership” – There are numerous examples of this statement being categorically untrue, the aforementioned Pas. Shaji being one of several.
6.Other activities; service of song: “But unfortunately many of these reels are not available for us to relish them.” – this statement is clearly divergent from the Neutrality principals that govern Wikipedia.
7.Other activities; service of song: “All songs are recorded in the Mission's recording theatre at Adyar and are a great attraction at the Annual International Conventions” – This is factually inaccurate, the bulk of English recording is performed at the facility in Newark, NJ.
8.Other activities, Sunday school ministry; qualified statements: “Each class has its own syllabus containing twenty lessons - ten from the Old Testament and ten from the New Testament (in most of the standards). Each lesson is accompanied by a moral and memory verse (except in some higher grades).” – both of these “facts” are then followed up by a qualifier, why put it in an encyclopedia if you’re not sure and cannot be bothered to check?
9.Other activities, Sunday school ministry factual inaccuracy: the statement “The Sunday School organization is unique in many ways” is then followed by an number of bias facts that indicate that the Sunday School is not in fact unique. Rebuttal: Fact 1: The majority of church assemblies select their Sunday school teachers from the ‘leaders’ or ‘best examples’ from the general assembly. Fact 2: The majority of church assemblies utilize volunteers to perform non-full time positions such as Sunday school teaching. Fact 3: This philosophy is applied by the majority of churches that operate a Sunday School.
10.Other activities, Sunday school ministry; Generalization: “Examinations are held matching the standards of Government” – The opening paragraph indicates the church operates in at least 41 countries, all of which have a government and all of which perform examinations differently. Furthermore, the implementation of the Sunday School is performed independently from Country to country by the local headquarters, the examination standards vary vastly. I only know how the examinations operate in two countries – neither is to the standard of any government.
11. Other activities, Sunday school ministry; subjective comment: “…are conducted for the encouragement of the children and the performers are rewarded well” – this is highly subjective and not all performers are rewarded at all, let alone well.
I have no doubt this article was written with honorable intensions however it is not even close to achieving Neutrality and is a borderline soapbox self promotion. Most likely the response to this comment will be a dismissal and a comment that I am just “bitter or frustrated with the church” or that I have “personal problems” or “could not maintain the standard”. This is an unfortunate attitude adopted by many members of the organization when any attempt at improvement is suggested, I have tried to provide this critique in good faith, while leaving out my personal opinions, take a good look at the points provided and your own writing.
Adding NPOV tag - the entire article reads like promotional copy from church members. Further, actual information has been taken out iin order to smooth the edges over this particular organisation.
Chapter – I Faith Home Life-Style is Absolutely Unscriptural Nowhere in the New Testament do we read that bunch of men and women ministers (workers) who were unmarried, were made to live under the same roof and carry on their ministry. Thus, the current style of faith-Home life is absolutely man-made, sometime in the beginning of the 20th century. We do not find such a life-style not only in the Bible but also anywhere in the church history.
It should be noted here that Pastor Paul the founder of this church continued to live a good family life of his own for two children were born to him after he founded the CPM church. Pastor Paul lived a good family life but continuously walked with God to the very end of his life. His life was just like that of Enoch of whom the Bible says,” Enoch walked with God -------begat sons and daughters------ and he was not: for God took him.”(He was raptured) (Gen. 5: 22-25) It was only when Pastor Alwin de Alvis joined Pastor Paul’s ministry that he started regularizing this system of unmarried men and women ministers (workers) living together in the same house called ‘Faith Home’.
The Apostolic Style of Living: The twelve apostles who were chosen by our Lord lived with their respective families, though they worked with our Lord all out. The undeclared leader of the twelve Apostles chosen by our Lord himself was Apostle Peter and he was a married man. Also, the other eleven who were chosen by Him were married persons. Not only were they married, the Bible says, they travelled with their wives wherever they went (I.Corin.9:5). Though the twelve disciples ministered with our Lord, they all lived separately.
1. The House Where Jesus Lived: Right at the beginning I would like to point out from the Word of God that Jesus Himself had a separate place to reside. In Mark 2:1, 2 we read, “He (Jesus) entered into Capernaum after some days; and it was raised that HE WAS IN THE HOUSE”. Also in Mt. 13:1, we read “the same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea-side.”
Now I would like to give below a few examples of how the Apostles of the first century Christian church lived.
2. Apostle Peter’s House: Apostle Peter was the first man who received the right revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ. He told Jesus “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. Then Jesus replied “Blessed are thou…..flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven” Matt.16:16, 17.
After the resurrection the Lord spoke to Peter and said ‘feed my sheep’ (John 21:17). Thus, Peter was given the responsibility of the church ministry.
On that important day when the church was inaugurated, it was Peter who preached and on the same day three thousand Jews repented and took baptism.
In the same manner Peter was the one who was chosen to open the doors of the Kingdom of God to the gentiles (Acts 10). Such an important Apostle who was chosen to perform such key ministries by our Lord was a married man.
My beloved TPM Pastors who say that a full-time minister must forsake his family life should ponder and pray over this and come to a right conclusion.
After Peter was chosen as an Apostle, he lived in the house that belonged to him and Andrew his brother. “They entered into the house of Simon and Andrew.” In that house was the mother-in-law of Peter who was sick. This only shows how much Peter loved his wife. He loved his wife so much that he let his mother-in-law to say in his house (Matt.8:4; Lk 4:38).
Not only that, even after Peter and other Apostles received the baptism in the Holy Spirit, they went about travelling with their respective wives to minister (1.Corin. 9:5). “Don’t we have the right to take a BELIEVING WIFE along with us as do the other Apostle” (NIV). This verse tells us that not ony other Apostles were married and travelling with their wives but also Apostle Paul had the same right to get married and continue his apostolic ministry.
This verse clearly indicates the following three irrefutable facts: 1. Cephas (apostle Peter) was a married man. 2. Not only was apostle was a married man, the other apostles were also married. Please note the words,” Don’t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us as do other apostles do? 3. Apostle Paul claims here that he too had the right to get married and travel with his wife and still continue to be an apostle, as other apostle of the early church did. “Don’t we have the right (meaning apostles Paul and Barnabas) to take a believing wife?”
Thus, there is absolutely no evidence at-all in the Bible that an Apostle has to remain unmarried (certainly NOT that those who drive the car for the Apostles and those who wash Apostles cloth need to remain unmarried). TPM does not believe that sisters can be Apostles. Then, why on earth do they ask their sisters to remain unmarried?
KJV translation says, “Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife?” We need to understand here that Peter’s wife who travelled with him was a ( spiritual) sister to Apostle Paul.
3. The House of Apostle John: At the time when Jesus was hanging on the cross of Calvary his mother May was sitting at the foot of the Cross. Then Jesus turned to Apostle John and committed his mother to him and then the Bible says John took her to his own home. “Then He (Jesus) said unto the disciple ‘behold your mother; and from that hour that disciple (John) took her to HIS OWN HOME” (Jn.19:27).
4. The House of Apostle Paul: When Apostle Paul went to Rome, there he stayed in a rented house of his own. “And Paul dwelt two whole years in HIS OWN hired house, and received all that came in unto him preaching the Kingdom of God’ (Acts 28:30,31).
5. The House of Evangelist Philip: According to CPM, the ministry of an Evangelist is one of the five ministries that are needs “For the perfecting of Saints” (Eph. 4:11, 12). What do we read in the Bible about Philip who was involved in such a ministry; the Bible says he had his own house and family. “We entered the house of Philip, the evangelist” (Acts 21:8).
It is very obvious that Evangelist Philip led a very blessed and fruitful married life with his wife for the Bible says, ‘The same man (Philip) had four daughters, virgins, who did prophecy” (Acts 21:9). Not only did Philip have a house and a family but also his children were involved in the ministry.
6. The TPM Ministers and the Faith-Homes: As I have mentioned before at the time of early Apostles unmarried men ministers and women ministers never lived together in the same houses. Instead they lived with their own families. Anyone who knows about the Faith Home style of living knows that they are not suitable places for a couple to lead a family life. But the Bible says that only such people can do the Pastoral ministry.
“If a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God” (1. Tim. 3:4, 5). Apostle Paul writes “A bishop then MUST BE the husband of one wife…..that ruleth well his own house”.
Observation: According to the TPM practice, a full-time minster cannot live with his own family. If a man with a family joins their ministry, the husband, the wife and the children would be mercilessly separated from each other. Trust me; being separated in this fashion by a Christian ministry is much worse and more cruel than a family getting divorced through a court.
Chapter – II The Table of the Lord and Taking Medicine We believe that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever and that he does heal the sick today as he did while he was on the face of this earth. But no one has the right to tell Him HOW He should heal us. Thus for example, we have no right to tell Him that He should heal us ONLY without medicine. He’s our sovereign God. We should entirely leave it to Him to heal us with or without medicine. “When such is the case our beloved CPM leaders teach their followers that if they take medicine they will not be raptured at the coming of the Lord. In addition to that they also refuse Holy Communion to those who take medicine. Nowhere does the Bible say that the believer should not take medicine. This is another one of the man-made teachings of the TPM church.
In 1.Tim.5:23 Apostle Paul told Timothy, “Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses (NIV). The medical value of wine is not only recognized by present day medical experts but we can also understand it from the parable of Good Samaritan. When the man who was travelling to Jericho was wounded by the thieves, the Samaritan poured in oil and the wine on the wound. It only indicates that these two have medical values.
King Hezekiah and Medicine: When King Hezekiah fell sick unto death he prayed to the Lord that God would extend his life. The Lord answered his prayer and said, “I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears; Behold, I will heal thee.” This message was given to King Hezekiah through the prophet Isaiah.
But the same Lord who told Hezekiah through his prophet that he would heal him said, “Take a lump of figs, and lay it for a plaster upon the boil and he shall recover” (Isa.39:21). Please note that the prescription of medicine for the healing of Hezekiah’s boil was not given by a human doctor but by our good Lord himself.
When such is the case in the Bible is it proper for the TPM leaders to train their followers to say, “Even if I die I will not take medicine?” Please consider this with prayer and then decide for yourself.
What About King Asa? In a good number of CPM Faith Homes and conventions one could find the following worlds written on banners or walls, “Yet in his (King Asa) disease he sought not to the Lord, but to the physicians and Asa slept with his fathers and died” (II.Chron.16:12).
The reason why our beloved TPM ministers do this is to inform their Faithful ones that King Asa died because he sought the help of physicians. But a careful study of that verse will show that the mistake he made was not that he sought the physician but the real mistake was that he did not seek the Lord but the physicians. Thus even though a Christian may take medicine when he falls sick he should seek the Lord for his healing. Though we should be responsible enough to do what all we could to get ourselves healed of our sickness yet we must remember that our Lord is our healer.
The TPM church teaches that taking medicine defiles our body which is the temple of the Lord. If that were so would our Lord ask that a plaster that was made out Fig bears be placed on the boil of Hezekiah for healing? Does the Bible anywhere teach that medicine defiles the body of a believer? Does it say anywhere that those who take medicine will not be raptured at the coming of the Lord? The answer to these questions is a resounding no.
When things are like this in the Word of God why do our beloved TPM leaders say that those who take medicine must not participate in the Table of the Lord. I leave this to your prayerful and Bible based consideration.
Do Not let the World Laugh at Us: When we begin to teach such doctrines that are not found or supported by the Word of God we could 0ften run into self contradictions that would make the world to laugh at us. Thus for example, the very Pastors who refuse communion to those who take medicine, when their eye sight decreases for some reason or the other, they go to a good Eye doctor and get a good prescription for a pair of reading glasses and then wear the glasses in line with the prescription given to them by doctors.
Some other TPM Pastors (this includes some of their chief Pastors also) when they get problems with their teeth go to a good dentist and sometimes wear the dentures (false teeth).
Medicated (corporation) Drinking Water and medicine: The ministers (workers) and other who live in different Faith homes around the world take medicine everyday for they do not take plain water but only water treated with Chlorine, otherwise a mdecine and other Chemicals.
They very well know that the water that comes through their Faith Home taps have medical ingredients in it. The irony is those TPM leaders and others who live in Faith Homes will not drink any water that is treated properly by the city Corporation. They very well know that the water they drink are treated with chemicals by the city corporation and municipalities.
If they sincerely believe that those who take medicine will not be raptured at the coming of the Lord, how dare they keep on drink the medicated water day-after-day? Is it right for such people to take Holy Communion and give Holy Communion? Please consider this prayerfully.
Whose Table it is? - The Lord’s or TPM’s? The TPM believers are also taught not to have any fellowship with any minister or believer from any other Pentecostal church. During their Holy Communion services the TPM pastors announce that those who take communion in other Pentecostal churches should not participate in the TPM communion services. Certainly this is another one of their unscriptural man made teachings. Through this erroneous teaching they are severing themselves and their believers from the rest of the body of Christ.
The Bible declares that we would be able to comprehend the breadth and length, and depth, and height the love of Christ with all saints. (Eph. 3: 18) Thus our love and fellowship should go beyond the borders of any one denomination.
Would TPM dare say that there are saints only in their denomination? Unfortunately that is what is they are trained to believe. That is the reason they refer to their ministers as saints. But the fact is there are blood washed saints who are baptized in the Holy Spirit all over. Since that is the case their fellowship should go beyond the borders of their own denomination. (TPM)
More over the Bible speaks of Holy Communion as the “Lord’s Table”. ( 1 Cor.10: 21) . If it is the Lord’s table no man or denomination has the right to build walls around the table of our Lord.
But TPM does so for its Holy Communion is the table of its own denomination where only those who belong to their own denomination could participate. Because it’s their own table they have made own rules about it. That is why their table is not open to all Blood washed saints but to only all brain washed saints. “He that hath an ear let him hear what the spirit sayeth” (Rev.2:7).
Chapter – III TPM Zion is Not Found in the Bible “The Highest Place in Heaven” According to the teaching of the TPM church the highest place available to man in heaven is Zion with one hundred and forty four thousand persons. They claim that only unmarried persons or those who have consecrated their family life for the sake of the ministry can find a place in Zion. They often quote the verse “These are they which were not defiled by women” (Rev. 14:4) in support of their teaching.
While our Lord was on this earth the mother of John and James came to Him and said, “Lord. Grant that these two may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left in thy Kingdom.” (Mt. 20: 21) But our Lord did not encourage his disciple to think in terms of who shall be greatest in the Kingdom. Such tendencies did not promote love between the disciples but indignation and selfishness. (Mt. 20: 24). The teaching of TPM Zion (not the Bible Zion) has promoted spiritual pride and unnecessary divisions within the body of Christ.
The TPM church prides itself that no other Pentecostal church has received this deep revelation of the hundred and Forty Four thousand on Mount Zion. We must thank God that no other Christian church in the world has fallen a prey to this man made teaching of TPM Zion. The Bible does not support any teaching that promotes the ‘The holier than thou’ attitude. The disciples always seemed to have had an attitude of who shall be the greatest in Heaven and they even put that question to Jesus Himself. A careful study of the Word of God will show that our Lord was never in favour of such attitudes.
Is New Jerusalem Reserved For Those Are ‘Defiled by Women’? TPM teaches that only those who have consecrated their married life (those who are not defiled by women’ could become qualified to enter Zion. They also teach that those who are married believers will find places their places in New Jerusalem. This erroneous teaching simply means that while Zion is reserved for those saints who have not been defiled by women (those who have consecrated their married life), New Jerusalem is reserved for those believers who are married ( according to TPM , those who are defiled by women).
Dear TPM reader, please consider whether our Holy God would have made the city of New Jerusalem for ‘those who are defiled by women’.
The Highest Place for the ‘Twelve Apostles of the Lamb’? In Jn. 14: 3, our Lord said,” In my father’s house there are many mansions--------I go to prepare a place for you.” My beloved TPM leaders teach and believe that the (special) place mentioned here is for those ‘consecrated saints’ who lead life of celibacy and serve the Lord. Let us search the Scriptures and find out what does the Bible says about this special or highest place. In Mt.20:27 Apostle Peter asked our Lord the question, “We have forsaken all and followed thee: what shall we have therefore?”
Please note our Lord did not answer them saying that there is the highest place in heaven called Zion and then gave an assurance to each one of them that they all could be absolutely sure of their places there.
Instead He answered them answered them saying,” In the regeneration when the Son of Man shall sit upon in the throne of His glory , YE SHALL ALSO SIT UPON TWELEVE THRONES, JUDGING TWELVE TRIBES OF ISRAEL .” Thus , while the Bible talks about the highest rewards it speaks of just twelve thrones and the twelve apostles sitting on those twelve throne judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Obviously this seems to be the highest place in heaven and is available only to the twelve apostles. This Bible confirms this once again in Rev. 21: 14, where it talks of New Jerusalem saying,” The wall of the city had TWELVE foundations and in them the NAMES OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES of the Lamb.” Thus the names of ‘The --- Twelve apostles of the Lamb’ seemed to have far better position waiting for them than the Zion with one hundred and forty four thousand who are just going to stand in Mount Zion along with the Lamb. I wonder why the TPM church which claims to have had some great revelations about the highest positions in heaven do not say a word about this highest position that is solely reserved for those “Twelve apostles of the Lamb.”!! Will they be kind enough to explain this?
The TPM Zion that Has No Bible Base At All The Bible commands,” If a man speaks, let him speak as the oracle of God.”(1 Pet. 4:11) Again we are advised to “rightly divide the Word of Truth” (2 Tim. 2: 15) Like the Bereans of Old. We cannot just take one or two verses from the Bible and build a teaching on that. Thus for example, some churches insist that their believers, after taking water baptism, must handle snakes. They base their teaching on Mark 16:18 where it says that those who believe and take baptism would be able to take up serpents in their hands without being harmed.
In the same fashion the so called church of the Latter Day Saints (Mormons) take Baptism for their dead ancestors basing their teachings on 1. Cor. 15:29.
The same is the position of TPM regarding their erroneous teaching on Zion. They have taken up a couple of verses from the 14th chapter of Revelation and built up this teaching. We will show to you that their teaching on Zion is absolutely unscriptural.
Chapter – IV Three Key Qualifications of A Foundational Doctrine Pentecostal scholars all around the world agree that a foundational teaching of the Christian church is required to have the following three qualifications.
1. Any fundamental doctrine must be one that has been taught by our Lord Himself, for He is the head of the Church. That means, we must find the evidence of that doctrine in the Gospels of the Bible.
2. Secondly, we must find evidence of that fundamental doctrine in the Book of Acts, for it is in that book we read the history of the 1st century Christian church.
3. Also, support for any fundamental doctrine must be found in the Epistles of the Bible because only in the Epistles the doctrines of the Church are fully ratified.
I give below a few examples how the fundamental doctrines of the church meet all these three requirements. 1. The Doctrine of Repentance a. Our Lord Himself taught this doctrine. “Repent ye, and believe the gospel” (Mk. 1:16). Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish” (Lk. 13:3). b. “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ” (Acts 2:38). “Repent ye, therefore, and be converted” (Acts 3:19). c. “For Godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation” (2.Cor. 7:10).
2. The Doctrine of Water Baptism a. Jesus said, “He that beliveth and is baptized shall be saved” (Mk. 16;16). b. “And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized” (Acts 22:16). c. “The like figure where unto even Baptism doth also now save us” (1. Peter 3:21).
3. The Doctrine of Baptism in the Holy Spirit a. “And behold I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with the power from on high” (Lk. 24:49). b. “And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost and began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance” (Acts 2:4). c. “And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption” (Eph. 4:30).
4. The Doctrine of Separation a. “They are not of the world even as I am not of the world” (Jn. 17:16). b. “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation” (Acts 2:40 NIV) c. “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers” (2. Cor. 6:14).
5. The Doctrine of the Second Coming a. “I go an prepare a place for you, I will come again” (Jn. 14:3) b. “This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven” (Acts 1:11). c. “For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel, and with a trump of God” (1. Thes. 4:16)
Now Apply these Three Essential Requirements On the TPM Doctrine on Zion of 1, 44,000!
This unscriptural TPM teaching on Zion does not meet any one of the requirements to become a foundational teaching of the Christian church. My beloved TPM leaders, please ponder over this with prayer. The TPM church says this is their most important teaching and that God has not revealed this deep doctrine to any other Pentecostal church. I thank God that no other church in the world has fallen a prey to this absolutely unscriptural teaching. Now please follow me carefully.
1. Our Lord Jesus Christ, the head of the Christian Church who has taught about all the other fundamental doctrines of the Church (as shown above) did not mention even one sentence about the CPM type style Zion with 1,44,000. If the teaching on Zion with 1, 44,000 is so very important as our TPM friends claim, how come we don’t read even one verse about it (TPM Zion) in all the four Gospels?
2. Secondly, if the doctrine on Zion with 1,44,000 is of such importance why is it we don’t read anything at all about it even once in the Acts of the Apostles which contains the history of the early Christian Church.
3. Thirdly, great Apostles like Peter, John and Paul have written beautifully and clearly about all the foundational teachings of the Church in their Epistles but have not mentioned even once about the Zion with 1,44,000.
Do you think they might have forgotten to write about this deep doctrine which TPM claims in reserved for saints like them with deeper consecration. The Apostles in all their Epistles did not care to write about this Zion with 1, 44,000 even once? Should you spend all your life time for this erroneous teaching on Zion which the Apostles never bothered to mention even once in all their Epistles? Should you waste all your life-time for this TPM teaching on Zion about which we don’t read anything at all in the book of Acts which contains the history of the 1st century church?
Finally, should you spend all your life-time for this teaching of Zion with 1, 44,000 about which our Lord, the head of the Church, did not care to speak even once?
My dear TPM parents, I appeal to you in the name of the Lord to prayerfully consider whether it is proper on your part to send your young children to the TPM ministry the doctrine of which is a bundle of contradictions.
My dear TPM workers, should you spend your whole life time for this doctrine of your Zion which came out of the late pastor Alwin’s (Whom you yourselves got excommunicated) fertile imagination and continue to mislead young lives with this man made teaching?
Chapter – V “These are They That Were Not Defiled by Women” (Rev.14:4) TPM teaches that those who are involved in married life are defiled and therefore they will not be able to enter the Zion of 144 thousand. In support of this erroneous teaching they quote Rev. 14:4 which says, “These are they which were not defiled with women.” But the married life mentioned in the Bible can never be defilement for the following reasons.
1. The Bible declares “Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled” (Heb.13:14). When the Bible categorically states the marriage bed is undefiled, How can our beloved TPM leaders teach their faithful followers (which I once was!) that married life defiles those who are engaged in it and therefore such people cannot enter into Zion? (My question is , how could those ‘difiled’ persons become worthy to enter the Holy city of New Jerusalem? Think about it.)
2. I would appeal to my beloved TPM workers and believers to remember this regarding Christian married life. Matt.19:6 says that it is God himself who joins a man and woman in matrimony. It says “Whom God joins together”. Remember our God is a holy God and there is absolutely no impurity in Him. Such a pure God will never unite two of His children as husband and wife in order to lead a life of defilement. Thus the defilement mentioned in Rev. 14:4 could not be a ‘defilement’ produced by a Christian married couple. Obviously if talks of defilement that comes from an illicit relationship that come from outside the boundaries of marriage.
3. Our Holy bible compares the love between husband and wife to the love that exists between Christ and the Church. “Husband, love your wives, EVEN AS Christ also loved the Church” (Eph. 5:25). When the Word of God compares the love between husband and wife to that of our heavenly bridegroom and bride, how dare any one could call it a relationship of defilement? The Bible does warn us saying “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean” (Acts 10:15, NIV).
4. It is our holy God who declared right at the beginning “It is not good that man should be alone” (Gen 1:8). It is to be noted here that our God did not make this statement AFTER the fall of man but before his fall. Therefore, it would be an awful blunder to think of married life as a second class life. It is before the fall of man that God said, “I will make a help meet for him”. Not only our Lord said it, he also make Eve and took her and gave her as his wife. (Gen. 2:22). Then the Lord said that the man shall leave his father and mother and cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh (v.24).
Thus our Holy God Himself instituted marriage BEFORE the fall of man and therefore there cannot be anything unholy, impure or defile about married life.
To the Prayerful Consideration of My (C)TPM Friends: Till now we considered the TPM teaching on Zion from the point of view of the Word of God. Now we will spend some time considering Zion from the point of view of TPM’s history that started in the year 1925. They have not even yet completed one century of survival specially their survival of the teaching of Zion.
The late great Saint Pastor Paul, who was the founder of the TPM church, led a good Christian married life with his wife even after the starting of the CPM church. His wife was a great woman of God and two children were born to them after the founding of the CPM church.
Thus according to the teaching of TPM that those who are involved in married life cannot go to Zion because of the defilement involved in it, Pastor Paul could not have gone to Zion.
In the same manner Pastor Alwin who succeeded Pastor Paul as the chief Pastor and who successfully held that position for over 20 years also could not have gone to Zion for the following reason.
In the year 1964, he was excommunicated by the TPM church for they found out that he was leading an immoral life in different Faith Homes for several years. It is not proper for the present day TPM church to hide this fact from its followers. At that point of time, it was uphill task for the CPM church to excommunicate its own chief Pastor. At that time, according to the request made by their leading Pastors of the church, I (Editor David Paul) played an important key role in getting him excommunicated. Some of the Senior Pastors and believer of the church are aware of this fact.
I have a question to ask by dear TPM brothers and sisters. This question comes from my heart. Are you going to following the teachings and practices of the late great saint who was the founder and chief Pastor of the CPM church or are you going to follow the teachings on Zion which were later on invented by Pastor Alwin who was caught in acts of adultery in different Faith Homes and was excommunicated by your church.
I see no reason why the present day TPM church still keeps teaching the erroneous doctrines of Zion brought about by Pastor Alwin specially after excommunicating him for his alleged immoral life. How great it would be for you to stop following the rules and teachings established by men and start hearkening to the voice of God as shown in the Word of God .
The Lord Shall Build Up Zion and Come In His Glory We read about the glory of Zion (Not the CPM style Zion) in many places in the Old Testament as well as in the New Testament. Hence, I would like to briefly refer to what the Bible says about Zion. In Ps.132:13, we read at Zion is the dwelling place of our Lord. 1. Corin.3:16 tells us that we, the New Testament believers are the dwelling place of the Lord, “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God DWELLETH in you?” In Heb. 12:21, 23, the apostle says, “Ye are come unto mount Zion and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem…..to the general assembly and church of the first born.” Here the apostle talks of the general assembly of saints, which is the church of God as mount Zion. This Zion which is the true church of God is swiftly being built around the world today. The gospel of our Lord is preached all over the globe in the power and demonstration of the Holy Spirit. Millions get saved and receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Thus Zion, the church of God is being built day by day. When this work is complete, the Lord shall appear in His glory to take away his church, the true Zion.
Chapter – VI TPM’s Unscriptural Teaching on Holy Communion The Bible Calls Holy communion as the table of the Lord (1. Cor. 10:21), as such, any born-again and baptized member is eligible to participate in his or her father’s table. If the Holy Communion is the table of the Lord, then we must follow the rules and regulations of the Bible to participate in that table of the Lord. But the TPM church seems to believe and act as if it is the table of its own denomination. Therefore, it has formed its own rules and regulations in this regard.
Thus for example they say that those who take medicine should not take Holy Communion for they teach medicine defiles the body which is the temple of God. But there is not one single verse in the whole Bible that states medicine defiles the body of the man. This is another wrong teaching that comes out of the fertile imagination of the TPM leaders. Thank God they don’t have a rule that those who take medical treatment should not serve Holy Communion. If that was so, all those TPM Pastors and elders who go to the doctors to fix their teeth and prescription for their eyes will not be is a position to serve at the table of the Lord.
Moreover, almost all their workers and believers take medicated water (Chlorinated water) on a daily basis. If they really believe that taking medicine defiles one’s body and that those who take medicine will not be raptured at the coming of the Lord then they would immediately stop taking the Corporation water which they very well know is medicated. Thus the whole teaching in this regard is self contradictory and hypocritical.
The Denial of Communion to Those Who Take Communion in other Pentecostal Churches! There is another cultish practice of the TPM church which announces during their communion services that their communicant members should not take communion in any other Pentecostal church. This is another proof to show that the TPM church does not treat the Holy Communion as the table of the Lord, but as the table of their own denomination. If they really believe that it is the table of the Lord, then they do not have the right to stop any blood-washed water baptized child of God from participating in his Father’s table. They need to realize that nobody has the right to build walls around the table of the Lord.
If the TPM church truly realizes it is part of the general assembly of the Body of Christ it will never say if you take communion in the table of our denomination then you cannot participate in the Lord’s Table at any other denomination. We need to pray that the Lord will enlighten the spiritual understanding of our TPM brethren that they will get a right vision of the whole body of Christ.
Note: Of course every time the Holy Communion is served the participants need to be told that it is the table of our Holy God and that no one should participate unworthily in the table, and that a man should examine himself and get cleansed by the blood of the Lamb before he takes the Holy Communion. It must be emphasized that the worthiness or otherwise of a person participating in the table of the Lord cannot be based on the denomination he belongs to. It is the table of the Lord and not that of any denomination.
Chapter – VII What Does the Bible Say? – Question & Answers Question – 1 Does the Bible say that all full-time ministers must remain unmarried as the TPM teaches and practices? The Bible does not teach at all that a full-time minister of the Lord Jesus Christ must practice Celibacy. As far as I know apart from TPM only the Roman-catholic church insists that all its full-time ministers (R.C. Fathers, brothers and nuns) remain unmarried. Of course, Buddhism and Jainism demands that its monks practice celibacy.
The TPM church selects only unmarried people for its full-time ministers. If they choose a family for the full-time ministry, they will separate the husband and wife. By that I mean they will send the husband and the wife to two different Faith-Homes that are located in two different places. If they have children, they will be sent to different Faith-homes.
Thus for example when my father-in-law joined the TPM ministry in Sri-Lanka, he and his wife were sent to two different Faith-Homes and the same happened to the two children. Also, I personally know that the same kind of treatment is given to so many other families when they joined the TPM ministry.
The Holy Bible emphatically declares that a Christian husband and wife should never be separated because it is God Himself who joins them together. It also talks about the responsibility of the parents to their own children but the teaching and practice of TPM with regard to their full-time ministers blatantly ignores and violates what the Bible says. The Bible says, “If any provide not for his own, and especially for those of his own, he has denied the faith and is worse than an infidel” (1. Tim. 5:8).
My dear TPM leaders, is it proper for you to separate husbands and wives in the name of ministry when God’s Word commands “Do not separate whom God has joined together?” I myself have witnessed and heard of good Christian families destroyed because of this erroneous teaching.
All who are Involved in Pastoral Ministry Must be Married: The Bible speaks of five kinds of ministries and Pastoral ministry is one of them. It is repeatedly emphasized that those who are engaged in pastoral ministry be not only be married but also take good care of their families. It never says that they should leave (forsake) their wives in order to serve the Lord instead it says, “A Bishop MUST BE blameless, the husband of one wife…… One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; for if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) (1. Tim. 3:2, 4, 5).
Writing about the qualifications of an Elder of the Church, the Bible categorically states that he must be, “The husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly” (Titus 1:6). Talking of the qualification of Deacons of the Church Apostle Paul emphasizes again that they too must be married persons leading a good family life (1. Tim.3:12).
I & II Timothy along with the book of Titus are known as Pastoral epistles. When the Word of God repeatedly demands that those who are involved in Pastoral ministry must be married, how dare the TPM leadership chooses only unmarried persons to join ministry who have made a ‘consecration’ for celibacy. This is in direct contradiction to the manner in which our Lord chose His twelve Apostles. He prayed the whole night and chose them and their undeclared leader was Apostle Peter who was a married man. He (Caphas) along with the other Apostles were not only married but they took their respective wives along with them wherever they went to minister (I. Cor 9:5).
Why does Paul say that Pastoral minister must be a husband of one wife? Apostle Paul is very particular that those who are involved in Pastoral ministry must be absolutely faithful to their spouses and that they should not have any intimate relationship outside the boundaries of their marriage. Even in the early church, the sins of adultery and fornication were prevalent. Paul writes in I. Cor. 5:1, “It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you. It is in this context Paul wants the ministers of the church that their intimacy must be confined just to their ‘one wife’”.
Question – 2 Out Lord Jesus Christ never got married; don’t you think that His full-time ministers must follow the example of our Lord? 1. Our Lord Jesus Christ as God must have been fully aware that he would die around His thirty third year and arise from grave and then ascend into heaven. After definitely knowing that He would not be on this earth after His thirty third years, it would have been a cruel act to get married and leave His young wife as a widow and children fatherless. We cannot even imagine that our Lord who is the emblem of love would do such a cruel act. But such is not your case.
2. Jesus Christ is our Lord and Saviour. He came down in the form of a man to save us and no Christian can ever imagine that our God would get married like the so called gods of our country. Jesus is our God and there is absolutely no question of our God getting married. But you are not so.
3. The Bible says that our Lord Jesus Christ was conceived in the womb of a virgin in a supernatural way. But none of us was born that way.
4. Our Lord Jesus Christ never said that those who become his full-time ministers must remain unmarried. That kind of a teaching is man-made. As I had mentioned earlier the undeclared leader of the twelve Apostles (Peter) whom our Lord Himself chose was a married man and so were the other Apostles chosen by our Lord (I. Cor. 9:5).
Question – 3 What do you think of people like Sadhu Sundar Singh, Amy Carmichael and Ida Scudder who never got married and served the Lord? This is a good question. All those great people whom you have mentioned and many other saints like them are still serving the Lord in a very effective manner. But please note the following very carefully.
1. None of these saints about whom you have mentioned never served as Bishops, Pastors or Elders of a Church. The Bible clearly states that those who are involved in Pastoral ministry must be married and lead a good family life. It does not say so about other kinds of ministry.
2. None of these saints about whom you have mentioned ever preached the erroneous doctrine that a full-time ministers of God must be unmarried. They never accepted that as their doctrine. I can authentically say so because I have read a good number of books written about them and by them.
3. In the Christian world, there are only two groups of people who teach that the full-time ministers of the church must remain unmarried and they are: a) The Roman Catholic Church b) The TPM Church The Buddhist and the Jain religious teach that their monks must consecrate their married life and practice celibacy. But Christianity says marriage is honorable in all (that includes full-time ministers and believers) (Eph. 13:4).
Question – 4 (C)TPM teaches that only those who have become sinlessly perfect like Christ shall be raptured at the coming of the Lord. What is your view on this? My view on this is not important. What really matters is what does the Bible say about it? The Bible does say that a believer must receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues and lead a holy life waiting for the coming of the Lord. Millions of Pentecostal people and other Christians in India and around the world keep believing this teaching.
But a very small fraction of this huge population believes that it is possible to become sinlessly perfect like Jesus and that only such people will be raptured when the Lord comes. But there is not a single verse in the whole Bible which supports this erroneous teaching.
Remember, If Christ like sinless perfection is a possibility then the Bible need not speak about “the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.” ( 1 Pet. 1:13)
To become Like Christ is Our Ultimate Goal: The Bible does say that every Spirit baptized child must keep growing in Holiness until he becomes like Christ. It is our goal to become people without spot and blameless (II. Peter 3:4). But this goal cannot be achieved here on this earth. Still we must keep on pressing towards this goal. Apostle Paul had such an experience and he writes about himself saying, “Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already being made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me” (Phil: 3:12 NIV).
Thus even Apostle Paul who wrote most of the Epistles in the Bible says that he had not yet become perfect like Christ but is pressing on toward that goal. Apostle John further explains their saying “Beloved, now we are the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be; but we know that WHEN HE SHALL APPEAR, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is” (I. John 3:2).
What Must We Doing until Then? The following verse states that every one that has this hope must purify himself even as he is pure (I. Jn. 3:3). This verse clearly tells us the following:
1. That he (the Lord) is pure and there is no sin in Him. 2. There are still some impurities in us (that does not mean we are living in sin for we are saved from sin and not in sin). Therefore, we need to purify ourselves. That shows we are not yet sinlessly perfect like Christ. 3. Verse 2 tells us when we shall become like Him and that will be when we see Him.
Note: They also claim that this ‘doctrine of perfection’ has not been revealed to any other Pentecostal church. We must thank God that no other Pentecostal church teaches this erroneous teaching of sinless perfection. I would dare say that it makes them hypocritical to teach this doctrine when they know that is impossible to become perfect like Christ until we meet Christ face to face.
Thus this teaching of the TPM church, 1. Contradicts the Word of God which says, “if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves” (I. Jn. 1:8). 2. They full well know that they themselves do not and cannot practice this teaching of sinless perfection. 3. If, only those who have become sinlessly perfect will be raptured at the coming of the Lord, then no one could be raptured when He comes.
Question – 5 “It is good for a man not to touch a woman” (I Cor. 7:1). “I would that at all men were even as myself” (I Cor. 7:7). “I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I” (I. Cor. 7:8). “Art thou loosed from a wife? Seek not a wife” (I. Cor. 7:27). “They that have wives be as though they had none” (I. Cor. 7:29). All the verses given above show that Paul supported the view that it is good for a man not to marry. What is your response to this? 1. Apostle Paul expresses that kind of a view only in this chapter( 1 Cor:7) of the Bible. 2. Apostle Paul who wrote such things in the chapter also makes it clear that these were his personal views and not of the Lord, “I say this as a concession, not as a command” (I. Cor. 7:6). He conveys the same thought once again, “But to the rest speak I, not the Lord” (I. Cor. 7:12). He confirms this once again saying “Now concerning virgins, I have no commandment of the Lord. Yet I give my judgment.”
Thus the views expressed on married life or otherwise are not of the Lord as Paul says but of himself. Thus for example when Paul says, “I would that all men were (single) even as myself”, he seems to contradict what our Lord said right at the beginning, “It is not good that man should be alone” (Gen 2:18). One is God’s view and the other seems to be Paul’s view! Well you may pick your choice!!
Why Should Paul Give His personal View Regarding Married Life in This manner? Apostle Paul himself explains why he gives a little different view from the general view in the whole Bible regarding marriage. He says “Because of the present crisis I think that it is good for you to remain as you are” (I. Cor. 7:25).
At the time when Paul was writing this the church was undergoing a terrible period of persecution. “And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad” (Acts 8:1). When Apostle Peter writes to such kind of scattered believers he refers to them as strangers scattered throughout Pontus Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia” (I. Peter 1:1).
The notorious Roman Emperor Nero was bent upon destroying the church through untold torturous persecution. That was the time when the believers had to leave all that they had and run for their lives. Christian communities lived an ‘underground’ life in places like Catacombs in an around Rome, one of which I happen to visit with my family a few years back.
Because of that untold suffering they were not able to run their regular family lives it is because of that time of aweful distress that St. Paul made those kinds of suggestions. But he repeatedly says that those were not commands of God but his own opinions. Remember that Apostle Paul always had such a high regard for Christian married life that he compared the love between the husband and wife to that between Christ and the Church. (Eph. 4:25)
My question to my beloved CPM leaders is this, do you really believe that married life defiles a person to such a degree that he cannot find a place in Zion? If you believe so:
1. Why don’t you stop calling your wedding services as ‘Holy matrimony service’ and start calling it ‘Defilement Services’?
2. Do you feel it is right to lay your hands on a young couple and bless (curse?) them in order to get them defiled? Is New Jerusalem A Defiled City?
The TPM teaches that only unmarried persons could get qualified to go t their style of Zion. They quote Rev. 12:4 which states, “These are they who are not defiled by women” in support of their erroneous teaching. To them those who lead a married life are defiled by women.
They also teach the New Jerusalem is place for married believers. In other words it is for those believers who are defiled by women!! Thus to them, Zion is a place for saints who are not defiled by women, New Jerusalem is a place for those believers who lead a married life, of course with some other qualification.
This should make the city of New Jerusalem a defiled city filled with defiled believers. But the Bible calls it a Holy City. WHAT OF ENOCK? (Gen. 5:22 & 24). The Bible says the following about Enoch.
1. He begot sons and daughters. 2. But he walked with God. 3. And God took him (just like it will happen in the rapture)
Correct the article and write it properly.
As you all may know that the wikipedia has a set of rules and regulations in the article that has been written. I believe that who ever has written has not written the latest posts in their personal way to show about church but too let others know the information of the church. Hence kindly do the needful and write it in neutral form. rencin24
- Much of this article is not referenced, and there is no way to correct it. There are virtually no sources that can support anything in the whole article. The church itself has no website, so any information about the church's doctrine is basically unreferenced. The whole article was written on original research, which is not permitted by Wikipedia. There is no way that anything in this article can be proven. That being said, I believe that the best thing to do is have this article removed. In no way am I against this church, in fact I am a member of it. NewByzantine (talk) 20:21, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
To TPM with love
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 March 2017
|This edit request has been answered. Set the
18.104.22.168 (talk) 09:08, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
This matters are not genuine. Criticism are not Genuine. Please avoide that.
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 11:00, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
I've added certain details about TPM from unbiased sources
Hi, To all who keeps undoing the edits, I've added details about Alwin de Alwis and used citations from independent sources. Just because you don't like the history of TPM, doesn't mean you get to censor it.
I've also mentioned about the murder of Kanagaraj with citations from "The Hindu" and "dtnext", both well known news sources. Patricksrichard (talk) 09:50, 1 April 2017 (UTC) However, I strongly doubt the public good behind including these selected controversies and excluding numerous other relevant matters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Albin Anto (talk • contribs) 09:55, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
- You've also added or restored material from primary sources, blogs from websites devoted to criticizing the church, and your own YouTube videos so any material you add must be closely scrutinized. Also, please read WP:COI. --NeilN talk to me 09:54, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
- That's cool. I was talking about those who keep blanking out sections. I'm actually a longterm member of this church who is tired of the one sided presentation of selective history this church presents everywhere. I only meant to bring a balance to this page. Moreover, I never reverted an edit by any of the wiki admins. For example, whenever you removed citations from "fromtpm" and "totpmwithlove" and you gave your reason, I never put them back in. I only reverted edits from autoconfirmed users who kept blanking sections even though the citations were reliable. Patricksrichard (talk) 10:08, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
Unsubstantiated info about muder
Semi-protected edit request on 5 April 2017
|This edit request has been answered. Set the
- It's an opinion....which you obviously do not share. Funny how a new user knows its way around here...which is another opinion of mine. And I have asked you a clear question at WP:RFP, btw. Depending on your answer, I might retract here when you have replied there fully. Lectonar (talk) 14:50, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
- This is from page 42 and 43 of the source. 
"Alwin even went to the extent of falsely accusing, humiliating and excommunicating Freddy Paul, who in fact had always been loyal to him. This altercation then spread throughout the Indian Mainland. After the events reached a peak in Ceylon, the Malayali A.C. Thomas, who was stationed in France and was responsible for the work in Europe, came from Europe to Madras. He presented the letter of a famous and much respected sister from a Faith home in London, in which she accused Alwin of a sexual attack on her. Simultaneously a rumor was spread that Alwin went around preaching a new doctrine called Edenic Perfection that supported unchaste practices (Alwin had introduced a sort of "holiness test" in the Faith Homes to see whether the men had really overcome their worldly desires. In order to test it, men were exposed to the sight of naked sisters. However it is difficult to decide whether such Adamite practices really existed), undermining Alwin's moral integrity and adding the credibility to the letter. Though many details remain vague, it seems certain that Thomas tried to overthrow Alwin on the basis of these accusations and to win the support of the Malayalo pastors with the hope of succeeding Alwin. This plan failed, however, because of the opposition of Tamil pastors and of those who suspected the ambitions of Thomas. It was thus agreed to have Freddy Paul as Alwin's successor. At the time of the conflict any reconciliation with Alwin was no longer possible. The conflict had taken on a life of its own, and Alwin had lost any sense of reality. From his side, nothing was done to placate the pasties and he uttered only hate-ridden tirades against those of his opponents. Alwin was officially excommunicated by Freddy Paul in 1962." Patricksrichard (talk) 15:27, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
- @Patricksrichard: Thank you. Excommunicated is sourced, "excommunicated for sexual immorality" is not. And how are you deriving, "Alwin was probably responsible for the Ceylon Pentecostal Mission's formulation of special teachings that caused its split from other Pentecostal churches"? --NeilN talk to me 15:39, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
- "Alwin was probably responsible for the Ceylon Pentecostal Mission's formulation of special teachings that caused its split from other Pentecostal churches" is a direct quote from page 64 of the same source. Please find the full quote below.
"under the leadership of Alwin, celibacy was made an obligation for newly appointed pastors. Likewise the common living of pastors and sisters in Faith Homes was institutionalized. In addition, the radical doctrinal statements were explained to be binding for members of the church, a policy that separated the Ceylon Pentecostal Mission from the rest of the south Indian Pentecostal movement. Alwin was probably responsible for the Ceylon Pentecostal Mission's formulation of special teachings that caused its split from other Pentecostal churches. Those teachings were propagated in a series of publications." Patricksrichard (talk) 15:50, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
- @Patricksrichard: Then that needs to be reworded to avoid a copyright violation. Is there anything else in the article copied straight from the source? --NeilN talk to me 15:53, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
- Just that according to my knowledge. Also I need a clarification. The earlier quote explains the circumstances surrounding Alwin's excommunication. One is a sister accusing him of sexual assault and the other is his new teachings where sisters were to walk naked in churches. How could the reason for his excommunication be worded if not "sexual immorality"? Patricksrichard (talk) 15:58, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
- You can describe (in your own words, please) the circumstances that led to his excommunication and let the readers draw their own conclusions. --NeilN talk to me 16:38, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
- Okay, I'm going ahead with writing that in my own words. Feel free to correct if you find anything wrong with it. Patricksrichard (talk) 18:31, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
- Note: Marking the request as answered. Also the page is no longer protected. DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 12:18, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
Jeril842002, I suggest you realize that we are an encyclopedia, not church teachings, rather quickly. Editing based on your personal experiences and adding phrases like "Purest of the pure saints of Christ" and "separated for Christ" is unacceptable. --NeilN talk to me 15:13, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
@NeilN Accepted. Will keep in mind going further. But having said that I still dont agree to controversial sections added regarding Pastor Alwin. It needs to be backed up else needs to be removed. Jeril842002 (talk) 15:18, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
@NeilN I went through both the references  and  and they are pretty vague for the allegation made in the Criticism section. Kindly review from your standpoint.
- Only TPM ministers belong to the 144,000 that will stand on Mount Zion near Christ in eternity.
- Church ministers often called "workers" who are unmarried men and women, stay together under the same roof.
- TPM bans members from attending other denominations and the church itself refuses contact with all other pentecostal churches and has a whole range of extremely radical and church dividing exclusive doctrines — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeril842002 (talk • contribs) 18:13, 5 April 2017 (UTC) Jeril842002 (talk) 18:28, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
- Jeril, I don't think it is vague at all. Both 5 and 6 can clearly be sourced from the same quote.
- 1. "The special teachings of the Ceylon Pentecostal Mission are concentrated on a very sacramental understanding of ecclesiastical offices. The office holders are not allowed to marry and are obligated to keep celibacy. They must live in faith homes, and are not allowed to have any personal possessions and must be attired in white. Only these ministers belong to the 144,000 that will stand on Mount Zion near Christ in eternity."
Semi-protected edit request on 12 April 2017
|This edit request has been answered. Set the
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 08:20, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 12 April 2017
|This edit request has been answered. Set the
Pastor Alwin De Alwis In the 1960s, a sister in the United Kingdom accused Pastor Alwin of sexually attacking her. Around the same time it was rumored that Alwin had introduced a new teaching called "Edenic Perfection" where sisters had to walk naked in Faith Homes to test if the men had overcome their worldly desires. Alwin was eventually excommunicated by Pastor Freddy Paul in 1962. After his excommunication, the property rights of Faith Homes were settled legally.  Pastor Alwin introduced a teaching that made it mandatory for pastors to remain celibates. Communal living of unmarried pastors and sisters was institutionalized. Alwin introduced a lot of doctrinal statements that made it binding on the members of the church. These teachings introduced by Alwin was probably the reason for the split of CPM from other south Indian Pentecostal movements.  Murder of Pastor Kanagaraj In 2016, a pastor in Tuticorin was suspected to have murdered another pastor."
- Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. — IVORK Discuss 13:08, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
What is the source for claiming this church has 20 million members?
This church has around 800 branches. Even with a ridiculously high estimate of 1000 members per church, the number would hardly reach 800000, a far cry from the claimed 20 million number. Patricksrichard (talk) 08:57, 30 May 2017 (UTC)