Talk:Tingatinga (painting)

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[Untitled]

The article should be called "Tinga Tinga Art" or "Tingatinga Art". Tingatinga(painting) is specific, it does not conclude other art forms such as art on calabash, three dimensional art (animals, fish decorations). Further readers tend to look for broader terms than specific ones. --Tuptan (talk) 10:50, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Controversial points

There seem to be some controversial points on this subject. While the Tingatinga art is so widespread in Africa that its notability is, IMO, beyond any discussion, it is true that there are few sources and even less completely reliable ones. So I am moving controversial points here to avoid dialectics going on in the article. Please discuss these points here and provide sources before reintegrating material inte the article. Also note that such controversial issues may arise in Edward Tingatinga; in that case, please refer to this discussion for controversy related to the painting/art style and to Talk:Edward Tingatinga for controversy on the painter himself (e.g., his birth nation).

Relationship between TT and traditional southern tanzanian art

I removed this paragraph:

Example of a traditional hut-wall painting in South Tanzania (picture: Karl Weule, 1906)

Sometimes it is claimed that the origins of the Tingatinga style can be traced back to the African tradition of decorating hut walls. As an argument it is said that some hut wall paintings found in southern Tanzania generally resemble Tingatinga art. This connection is historically wrong. The wall-paintings at African huts are the continuation of paintings at rocks and in caves (Cave painting). One can find such paintings in a lot of regions of Africa (e.g. in Namibia), also in Australia, America and Europe (with illustrations from animals, people and--Tuptan (talk) 00:21, 26 October 2010 (UTC) ornaments in frequently similar representation) and they are surely not the orign of Tingatinga Art. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Moongateclimber (talk • contribs) 08:16, 25 October 2010 (UTC)</small--41.204.142.84 (talk) 19:09, 25 October 2010 (UTC)--41.204.142.84 (talk) 19:09, 25 October 2010 (UTC)>[reply]

I accept this because on this way the wrong claims of the TACS which are published till today [[1]] can delete from the article Makond (talk) 11:18, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Role ot the Tingatinga Arts Cooperative Society

I also removed the following section. Since it casts doubt of an existing organization, and does so without references, I think it is unfair to keep this in the article. Of course, criticism on TACS is no tabu as long as it is referenced properly.

The current discussion about Tingatinga Art as well as Tingatinga handicraft involves different aspects. There are remarkable disagreements already around the name of this artistic trend. Since some time the Tingatinga Arts Cooperative Society (TACS) in Dar es Salaam/Tanzania tried to establish the name "Tinga Tinga“ instead of the term „Tingatinga“. These attempts are to see before the background, to promote the international sales of abundantly produced Tingatinga paintings and other handicraft objects. In this context are used the historically inappropriate claims, that this painting style is the continuation of wall paintings you can find at a few places in South Tanzania (see above) and because of this a „cultural heritage”. The term "Tinga Tinga" actually never has played a serious role in the international art-scene. The only correct name is Tingatinga (art, paintings etc.), which is a tribute to the founder of this East African artistic trend Eduardo Saidi Tingatinga.

The dubious role, that plays the TACS today, is emphasized also by the sale of the usufruct of the term „Tinga Tinga“ to a film production company in United Kingdom (Tiger Aspect Production). That therefore is remarkable because the TACS neither was nor is the owner of the right of this term and also only a few Tingatinga artists are represented by the TACS.

Another present problem lies in the attempt, to occupy the name of the internationally highly respectable and in 2005 deceased Tanzanian artist George Lilanga as alleged Tingatinga artist. Only sale-strategic reasons are the background for this. Lilanga never was an artist of the Tingatinga style and he told in some of his late interwievs that he never felt as a member of Tingatinga group. In fact the artistic roots of Lilanga don't lie in Tingatinga square paintings but in the Makonde woodcarving art and then – starting with his time at House of Art (Nyumba Ya Sanaa) in Dar es Salaam in the 1970s – drawings, batiks and special (with masterworks already from the 1980s) etchings. All these artistic techniques neither were used by E. S. Tingatinga nor by his so called students or followers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Moongateclimber (talk • contribs) 08:19, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't accept the delete of this section. The first part of the text deals with the wrong claims of the TACS around the history [[2]] and the name [[3]]. It is important to clear up this also the economic intent of this. The middle part is a proof of the role of the TACS. More you can find e.g. at this references [[4]] and here [[5]] and here [[6]]. The last part deals not at first with the TACS but under the line "Current situation" with the current claim (e.g. see here [[7]]) that George Lilanga was a Tingatinga artist. In this context there is no reason to delete the text because this problem is a part of the theme around Tingatinga (painting, art or what else you will call the article line). Makond (talk) 11:43, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I hope I have made it clear that it is not my intent to delete anything, as long as it can be properly referenced. Since this section attacks TACS (e.g., calling its intents "dubious" and so on), which is an existing organization, the need for reliable sources for these claims is even stronger. This issue looks quite complex to me since there are opposite positions in web sources, yet it is still unclear to me why should some be considered more reliable than others; for example, what makes Alex Drummer more reliable than TACS sources. Unless this problem can be solved (which does not seem likely to me), the only two options are: a) do not discuss any of these disputes, that after all are not strictly necessary to describe the Tingatinga style; b) discuss them in a as-much-balanced-as-possible way, i.e., faithfully representing the positions of all stakeholders.

So: at the very least, this section needs a thorough reworking before being included in the article. Also, sources should be evaluated closely.

The good news is that if we can eventually make it to have it clear who says what and why out there and represent all positions faithfully, we will have done something that might really be useful to whoever will approach the issue. The bad news is that it is hard work. Moongateclimber (talk) 13:39, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I gave it a try, please check it. It's not inclusive of everything you wrote, but it's a beginning that we can hopefully have consensus on. Moongateclimber (talk) 14:45, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have no problem to find a consensus. But the more I read your statements the more it seems to me that you could personally involved with the TACS, isn't it? However, I worked out new text sequences, special in the history part. Maybe we can find a solution on this way.Makond (talk) 17:23, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just a quick note, as hopefully I will join in the conversation tomorrow (now it's getting late in my timezone): I have no affiliation whatsoever with TACS and honestly I am now learning everything about this controversy, both sides of it. I am just, you might say, specialized in bringing relatively obscure african topics (i.e., topics that are surely notable by not so famous) to Wikipedia. Like, you know, muziki wa dansi bands or soukous just as much as swahili literature. I'm here to learn as much as to share. Moongateclimber (talk) 20:35, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is TACS a school?

A micro-controversy is related to the use of the word "school" to refer to the Tingatinga Cooperative. I used it more in the sense of "school of thought" than school proper (and in this sense it may be wrong to equate it to the TACS; see below). User Makonde has replaced the word school with a so-called "school", implying that, in some sense, it is not a school. I think that it is not reasonable to say what the TACS is not, so I think the thing should be settled in some other way.

There are sources that speak of the "Tingatinga School" (capitalized) obviously referring to all those young painters that directly or indirectly build on Tingatinga's original inspiration ([8]). In this informal sense I think the word "school" can be used. Perhaps it could be rephrased as such:

"When Tingatinga died in 1972, his style was so popular that it had started a generation of imitators and followers, sometimes collectively referred to as the "Tingatinga school". About 100 hundred Tingatinga followers, including some of E.S.Tingatinga relatives, are organized in a society known as the T.A.C.S. [9]."

Or something like that. Moongateclimber (talk) 10:01, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

TACS never was a "school" but always an organization to promote the sale of the paintings and other handicraft things and to support the members. Therefore, already the question is wrong. My text doesn't deal with this question. It is about a term in the art-world.Makond (talk) 11:50, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This seems consistent with what I (now) wrote, anyway. Moongateclimber (talk) 13:40, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Tingatinga Partnership Nonsense

When E.S.Tingatinga died in 1972 his children were still babies. How could could they be part of the formation of Tingatinga Partnership. Also, when Tingatinga died in 1972 he left behind 6 students - Ajaba, Linda, Adeus. Tedo, Amonde and Mpata. There were not more than 6 Tinga Tinga painters in the whole East Africa so where do all 100 "followers" come from? This is just to start. Why is it important to talk about name Tinga Tinga? Who has right to it? Why to write 2 or 1 word? These are matters of opinion and shouldn´t be dealt with on Encyclopedia. Wikipedia is platform for information, not opinions or controversy. Still I will try to balance the story. --41.204.142.84 (talk) 18:14, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Tingatinga Cooperative as School

Tingatinga Cooperative is registered organization. In Fact the whole name is "Tinga Tinga Arts Cooperative Limited". this is exact citation of the name from the memorandum. Other version of the name is used "Tingatinga Arts Co-operative Society". The Cooperative is not school in the legal sense but nevertheless many Tanzanian artists passed the organization despite the unwillingness to accept any students or artists which are not related to Tingatinga family (when I say Tingatinga family I mean also the close related families of Mruta, Chilamboni or Mchisa; the latest quite a distant family from Tingatinga) Many great artists like Mzuguno, Msagula, Aussi passed the Cooperative. Many artists on Zanzibar or Arusha passed the Cooperative. The Coperative is setting trends to Tinga Tinga in Tanzania, at least the conservative and traditional one. The term "School of Tinga Tinga" could be used in some relation.--41.204.142.84 (talk) 18:26, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Critisised? By whome and why?

Dear Makond. The only critical articles were written by Alex Drummer. But if we ignore that detail and look closely for what TACS has been critizised for then we must admit that TACS was critisized for "protecting its own name Tinga Tinga". Little history. For 40 years TACS did not prohibit to any people, inclusive you to use the term Tinga Tinga. But there were people in many countries in the world who tried to register the name Tinga Tinga (or Tingatinga, it is legaly same).In USA the trademark Tinga Tinga was registered for ca 10 years until it expired recently. Today the name Tinga Tinga is registered trademark in at least 3 countries: Holland, Sweden and Japan. A company associated with TACS was prohibited to use the name Tingatinga for its products in Japan under threats of court. A year ago TACS got letter from Tiger Aspect with "recomendation" to delete the words "Tinga Tinga Tales" on its webistes. So why Mr.Alex Drummer critizises TACS while it is not TACS which registers or prohibits others to use the name?

You further criticize that TACS is destroying the good name Tingatinga by using 2 words term. I wonder why you miss to look closely at the effect which Disney will cause to the Tinga Tinga art when they use the term for their tales, T-shirts, toys etc. Or look in UK where Lego is organizing Tinga Tinga workshops. Needless to say, Tinga Tinga artists of Tanzania conducted Tinga Tinga workshops for over 20 years. Many books called "Tingatinga" were published about Tingatinga art but now Penguin publishes books with the same title about something what could be hardly called "Tinga Tinga"? The point is that it is not TACS which is destroying something. And it is not TACS which is prohibiting or registering trademarks, look on the other side, Mr.Makond.

About all of this controversy, there are some points that should be established in order to decide whether it's o it's not reasonable to include it in the article. The main question that I have in mind is, who is Alex Drummer and by what title he should be considered as a notable source on the matter. Maybe Mr. Makond may help us with that? Moongateclimber (talk) 07:09, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Tinga Tinga and hut walls

Before E.S.Tingatinga came to Dar es Salaam ,the comercial capital of Tanzania, he used to paint on the hut walls in his native village. The main source of this information is Omari Amonde, the last living student of E.S.Tingatinga. The paintings on walls in South Tanzania is quite spread until now but little research was done. It is this link between Tingatinga art and the traditional wall decorations which was highlited by TACS. It is puzzling why this shoudl be critizised. On the contrary, more research is needed. TACS has its own interest to portray the Tinga Tinga art with deeper roots than just to 1968. As said before, E.S.Tingatinga painted on walls before painting on square boards. The wall painting is quite a spread in south Tanzania, the homeland of Tinga Tinga painters and was documented already in 1906. As with Makonde, they did not start to carve out of the blue for catering the products to tourists, but the tradition goes back to many years as they were skillful at carving the masks.

The point about this is that it seems we have no reliable reference here. TACS and affiliates cannot be considered reliable on this issue; not that I have anything against them, it is simply that they are involved in the issue. Just as much as a company's website it's not a reliable source for information about their own products, so a third party reference would be needed here; a history of art scholar, for example, stating that there actually is a definite relationship between Tingatinga art and hut paintings. Until then, I would simply omit the whole issue. Moongateclimber (talk) 07:11, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lilanga and Tinga Tinga

TACS has never claimed that Lilanga was Tinga Tinga artist. The reference number 7 is pointing not to TACS but AfricanColours.com. As manager and webmaster I am happy to refer to Lilanga´s success on various Tinga Tinga websites but it does not mean that TACS "occupies" the Lilanga. I refer to Makonde successes as well without beeing accussed of "occupying" Makonde. Anyway - there are some links between Lilanga and Tinga Tinga. First - Mchimbi, Kapanda painted for Lilanga - they are Tinga Tinga painters. Second - the Tinga Tinga painter Mchisa build up his name as Lilanga copyist - he paintings are showed now in National Gallery of Firenze together with Lilanga´s paintings. Third - Lilanga used same teqniques and material as in Tinga Tinga school to project his Makonde spirit. He was inspired by E.S.Tingatinga on this point because Tingatinga started to use the material before 1972 and Lilanga after 1972. I agree with you that it is wrong to claim Lilanga was Tinga Tinga painter but it is equally wrong to ignore the link between Lilanga and Tinga Tinga. It is similar with Tinga Tinga and the hut walls. No one says that the hut walls are same as Tinga Tinga. What is highlighted is the fact that Tingatinga painted on hut walls before he started to paint on boards. It is hard to find an argument for ignore such connections in a text published at Wikipedia.

As above: any referenced connection between Tingatinga and Lilanga is welcome. If there isn't any, simply omit the issue. And in this case, by omitting, I mean that it does not make sense for the article to talk about Lilanga "not being" a Tingatinga artist. Just remove all of this. Moongateclimber (talk) 07:13, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have put together referenced connections between Lilanga art and Tinga Tinga art: Tinga Tinga and Lilanga has some similarities and are linked together. Though Lilanga is not Tinga Tinga artist he was surrounded by Tinga Tinga painters and also wa--Tuptan (talk) 19:54, 28 October 2010 (UTC)s inspired by the techniques used by Tinga Tinga - enamel colours and square paintings. This techniques was used already in 1968 by Tinga Tinga painters (Yves Goscinny, Popualar Art of Tanzania) but while Lilanga did not start to paint earlier than in 1974 (Kamphausen, George Lilanga) The Italian curator Cesare Pipi states in his book George Lilanga - Colours of Africa, (2007, ISBN : 978-88-89298-32-9, page 136): "George Lilanga frequented the art circles of the Tingatinga school". But it is not only the Tinga Tinga material and techniques which George Lilanga used. George Lilanga used the same vibrant colors as Tinga Tinga painters. (Catalogue Raisonne, George Lilanga, Enrico Masceloni, page XII: From Tinga Tinga Lilanga has borrowed colour of an extraordinary, dreamlike chromatic potential which increase the already high degree of vitality in these pictures....). Without Tinga Tinga there would be no Lilanga, since Lilanga has used both material, techniques, colors and composition sugessting the horror vacui as Tinga Tinga is known for. In the book Tingatinga, Kitsch or Quality Tine Hanne, the art curator Tine Hane claim (2010, ISBN 978-87-992635-1-6, page 68): When he [George Lilanga] encountered the works of Tingatinga School, it had a profound effect on his work. George Lilanga did not know how to paint in the Tinga Tinga techniques, he could not handle the colour and the brush; he was a Makonde sculptor. The paintings were painted for him by Tinga Tinga painter Noel Kapanda and later by Mchimbi Halfani. (Daniel Augusta:www.lilanga.org and Felix Lorenc:www.makonde-carvings.info). George Lilanga´s art works were exhibited on many occassions together with Tinga Tinga art, one of the last such exhibition was organized in 2009 in Germany in Stadtgalerie Ahlen. The title of exhibition was: "Die Hand ist das Werkzeug der Seele". On the exhibitions were also the art works of Noel Kapanda signed by George Lilanga´s name which was highlighted by the descriptions of the paintings. George Lilanga traveled with Noel Kapanda, the Tinga Tinga painter, on several occassions to Japan and conducted exhibitions there. The organizer was the art curator Kenji Shiraishi. He wrote even a book called "Tingatinga and Lilanga" (the Museum of Art, Kochi, Giappone, 2004). From above examples it is evident that similarities exists between Lilanga and Tinga Tinga art. The two Tanzanian art styles - Lilanga and Tinga Tinga do no live separate lives but interact and enrich each others until today.[reply]

Derogatory language

Mr. Makond, you say that TACS was critizised and then you refer to an article by Alex Drummer. The article is full of deragotary expressions like: stupid and greedy people of TACS; TACS arranged a bad contract, to claim that Tinga Tinga is part of national heritage is garbage; TACS´s members are unscrupulous businessmen. The article is unclear about the subject. It seems that the problem is that TACS uses the term Tinga Tinga, instead of Tingatinga . The other point of critisism is that TACS protects its own trademark as any other organisation would do. The point of critisism is not clear.

As I mentioned above, we should first know who Alex Drummer is and why his opinions should be taken into account. Next, if it came up that he is in fact a notable source, simply quoting his writings does not mean that Wikipedia endorses his criticism (much less his derogatory language) on TACS. Moongateclimber (talk) 07:14, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What is exactly the critisism about?

You claim that: TACS does use 2 words Tinga Tinga due to commercial interests. TACS connects Tinga Tinga to wall paintings due to commercial interest. And finally TACS connects Tinga Tinga to Lilanga art for commercial interests. Dear Makond, I miss a point of critisism again. Is the problem that TACS has commercial--Tuptan (talk) 02:11, 26 October 2010 (UTC) interests? Or is the problem that TACS wrongly connects Tinga Tinga to Lilanga, wall paintings and uses Tinga Tinga term? Or is it the combination of all? Please specify the critisism of TACS.[reply]

I join Tuptan in asking these questions. Moongateclimber (talk) 07:14, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Section on the origin of Tingatinga art, hut walls, etc.

I tried to clean-up the section and wikified it. I maintained references as per Tuptan's original edit, although such references are not very clearly spelled out (I find it hard to distinguish individual titles of books and articles). Some cleanup in there would still be needed, although this is now mainly limited to footnotes. Moongateclimber (talk) 12:43, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Moongateclimber, I will proceed with the cleanup. I am aware that the quality of the article shoudl be better. I was busy with the German Wikipedia.

--41.204.134.193 (talk) 13:34, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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Maybe interesting to add that beginning of the eighties the artists at Oysterbay did not use bicycle paint but paint they got from the train depot. Funny thing is many believe the name "TingaTinga" came from this origin as it means bulldozer or locomotive. Early works are always in these basic primitive colors you find on trains of those days : Gray, dark blue, red, black, yellow, dark green and white. There were no gradients used, just pure colours. Other colours appeared 10 years later such as pink, orange, light blue, etc... There were also just a few subjects and always painted in the same manner. The big five, a few birds, antilope, very basic trees and plants... The beauty was in the simplicity and the curves of the tinga tinga... being able to create a beautiful piece of art with limited means. Subjects like humans, fish, etc... appeared later. Gradients in the body and more detail in the subjects were added over the years. On the nearby "TingaTinga market" the Belgian ambassador and his wife introduced a new phenomena by asking the artists to decorate metal boxes for cookies. Artists saw the potential and started decorating objects and selling them apart from just doing the regular paintings. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TimMichiels001 (talk • contribs) 14:27, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]