Talk:Tirant lo Blanch

Sources

Most of the information contained on this page can be found in the Rosenthal translation's "Introduction"; since Rosenthal was the translator of the most recent English edition, I would assume that his words have the necessary authority. A simple statement to that effect should take care of the citation needs. I was also dismayed to find the discussion page infested with linguistic nationalism. Perhaps Rosenthal's treatment of the language question might help to shed some light. Considering those passages in the book's dedicatory preface which relate to it's language, Rosenthal says: All this information [in the previous paragraphs] may shed some light on Martorell's statement … that Tirant is translated from English into Portugese and then into 'Valencian vernacular' (that is, Catalan) (Rosenthal xiv). In other words, the translator, who may be presumed to be familiar with the Catalan language, doesn't see any difference between Valencian and Catalan at this date; indeed, Rosenthal's endnote on that passage in the book (626) reads: 'Valencian vernacular' here refers to what modern linguists would call the Valencian dialect of Catalan. Since the linguistic nationalist (further down this page), boldly signing himself with the same name as the author of Tirant, has declined to show his proofs, perhaps we may let Rosenthal have the last word here. Theonemacduff (talk) 16:33, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Roger de Flor

Why does it say http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_Company "De Flor was inspired to form the company by the mediaeval tale of Tirant lo Blanc," if your article says it was inspired by him? Where does the tale originate?

Publication

• What is the source of the exact publication date? I own a copy of the book, the Rosenthal translation, and it only says that the book was published in 1490. Can someone please check this out?
• The second author of the book, Martí Joan De Galba, was previously not mentioned in this article, and does not appear on any pages linked to this article (I know because I corrected all the redirects just now.) Can someone please make the necessary edits where they see fit?
• I added the category that says Spanish literature; I know it's not in Spanish, but since the work is from the area that is modern-day Spain, perhaps the category ought to stay, unless someone has notable objections to it. -- Simonides 08:38, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It should be under Catalan literature. Doesn't that category exist? If it doesn't, then Spanish literature will do for now. — Chameleon My page/My talk 08:46, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

There is a category for Catalan language, but not literature. Anyway, I have changed the year of pub. because several sites confirm it is 1490; 1468 was only the year in which Martorell passed away. -- Simonides 08:51, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Catalan or Valencian?

I think some mistakes must be corrected. "Tirant lo blanch" was never written in catalan language, but in valentian language. You can verify this in the firsts pages of the book, in the dedication to the Prince Ferdinand of Portugal, where it says: "... e pus verdaderament ignorancia me atrevire expondre no solament de lengua anglesa en portoguesa, mas encara de porqoguesa en vulgar valenciana, per ço que la nacio d'on yo so natural se puxa alegrar e molt ajudar ...". Please follow this link: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagen:Tirant.jpg --Wikiküntscher 23:06, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

---

Valencià is an independent language even though the long lasting politic and echonomic efforts and interferences of catalonians to subordinate it to Catalan. Valencia was already a kingdon very long before Catalonia began to exist as an unity. And Valencians never have taken seriously the affirmations of catalans about language, because it has been always so clear... until recent times, when the convoluted arguments and theses of the catalans seem to have gained resonance and success outside from Spain, (and surprisingly inside Spain, also), and it is becoming a threat to valentian identity. Catalans have demonstrated again what scientifics know since very long ago, thas is: A language is a dialect with an army.--Wikiküntscher 20:44, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Not really. Valencià has always just been a name for the same language while used the valencian way. Some political groups now want to artificially make it a different language for hideous purposes. Sadly, it's only politics, since the experts in languages, from valencia and from the rest of the world, seem to agree about valencian and catalan being the same language.Rvalles 00:36, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)

Tirant lo blanch, Prologue

No. You're wrong. Valencià has been a language since the XIII century, as it can be proved from multiple texts from theese ages, and surprisingly, the word "catalan" apears in none.

See the image to the right. It is one of the first pages of the Tirant, the valentian edition of 1.491. I have marked with green the segments where it is said clearly by Joanot Martorell that he writes his novel in Valentian. The text has not been manipulated. It was exactly written as it appears. The first column belongs to the prologue. Yo can read it also in the complete on-line text whose link you can find at the end of this article, (not here, in the discussion). About the 2nd column, I cannot find the text in the prologue. I think it must belong to the epilogue, but I have not verified it yet.

You can find more interesting testimonies of the existence of the Valentian Language along centuries here, http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usuario:Val/val#nomenclatura I say you again: The texts have not been manipulated. The catalan point of view, comes from it's strong nationalism. But in the process of afirmation of their "differential identity", catalans borrowed the valentian language and literature.

--Wikiküntscher 21:50, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Valencians and Catalans have always borrowed from each other, and the rest of Spain. What is clear is that the common language of Catalonia and Valencia originated in Catalonia and spread southwest along the coast as Christians conquered lands from the Moors. For this reason, the language of the Valencians is Catalan, in the same way that the language of the Andalusians is Castilian. In each of these cases, a number of dialectal variations have sprung up, but without obscuring the unity of each language. Unlike the Andalusians, Majorcans, Roussillonnais and others, Valencians have long chosen to apply a local name to the language, probably due to local literary output in mediaeval times and Spanish-nationalist, anti-Catalan politics in recent times. This tendency is to be respected, but not necessarily followed, given that it is entirely consistent with linguistic fact to say that Tirant lo Blanch is written in Catalan. It cuts both ways: when I speak their language, Valencians say I am speaking Valencian. However, I learnt this language in Barcelona. Chameleon 00:31, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

No. You are wrong, and too influenced by catalan nationalistic doctrine.

1.- It is not so clear wether the valencian origined from catalan as the catalans pretend. There are many proofs agaist it. They are simmialr, of course, but Portuguese and Galician are simmilar too, and they are regarded as differentiate languages. Each one has it's own academy and o in separate ways, because they respect each other.The romance language thas was spoken in Valencia during the XIV century was very different from the romance language spoken in Barcelona, and the differences have growed with time.

2.- In case the valencian was a dialect of catalan it has all the rights to be considerated as an independent language. It has followed a very different evolution respect to catalan along 7 centuries. Valentian is much more hispanic, and catalan is much more gallic.

3.- Linguists say "we all speak in dialect", and "a language is a dialect with an army". The pretended "unity" of catalan language is artificial, and respond to political interests, (from Catalonia, of course). I showed you a page of the "Tirant" in wich it is clear that the language is "valencian", and you insist in calling it "Catalán". Why?. Does it dismount your paradigm? In that case, follow your investigation, you will fin things that will make you change your opinion.

4.- You must be respective with the languages recogniced by the European Comunity, (and Valenciano is one of them), and with the Spanis constitution, and with the Estatuto de Autonomía Valenciano. Please be correct. An enciclopaedia must be correct, and you are not being so. At the present in all the definitions about catalan and Valencian subjects the wikipedia in english is being non-enciclopedic. In fact it is being very subjective, partial and incorrect.

5.- I suggest you to visit the german wikipedia. It is not completely correct in these subjetcs, but it is very much more correct than yours.

--Wikiküntscher 11:12, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

1. It is clear that the language known variously as valencià, català, catalanesc, romanç, llemosí, etc was spoken in Catalonia when Valencians still spoke Arabic. Variations within modern Valencian largely derive from the origins of the settlers from the Corona de Aragón: the eastern parts of the kingdom were mostly settled by people from the Lleida region and the western parts were mostly settled by people from Aragon, who spoke Aragonese and then Castilian.
2. Origins aside, it is also clear that the language spoken nowadays across the territories of the Corona de Aragón is a single language. Indeed, some might argue that Catalan and Occitan are just two very different dialects of one great Hispano-Gallic language, with Valencian, Majorcan, Roussillonnais, Provençal etc as subdialects of these. Near my house in Languedoc (I commute between there and Valencia — long story) there is a town called Aigues-Mortes. I think the meaning of this toponym is transparent from Provence to El Cartxe.
3. That page from Tirant shows nothing but the fact that Martorell called his language valencià. This does not prove that this same language was not spoken in Barcelona. Indeed it was, under various names. The unity of the language is agreed upon by all linguists.
4. The European Union is an administrative and not linguistic authority. The fact that they have been pressured into recognising Valencian separately from Catalan does not change linguistic and historical reality.
5. My German is rusty. If that page has been hijacked by anti-Catalans, it needs to be corrected.

Chameleon 12:00, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Chameleon, your paranoia is ridiculous. You go so far as to assert that the denomination "valencian" is some concoction of rabid anti-Catalan Spanish nationalists: it is you, a Brit formed in Barcelona, who does not know, understand or respect the historical realities of the Valencian region and its language. While it is true (from my point of view) that there is a common (though extremely polymorphic) language to most of the territory formerly belonging to the Aragonese Crown, your political intentions are CLEAR AND UNMISTAKABLE because you refuse to give legitimacy to the Valencian denomination, instead seeing it as an inferior dialect of Catalan. The reality, which you, either because of your alien status or inherent narrow mindedness refuse to understand, is that Catalan, Valencian, Majorcan and Menorcan are all PARTS of the same Language, rather than the Valencian, Majorcan and Menorcan being parts of Catalan. Principles of equality and equity. You would rather have some sweeping generalisation (a Catalonian one) rather than respect the truth, perhaps out of some morbid and frivolous desire to polemicise where you have no business. The theory of troops from Lleida installing themselves in Valencia and thus creating a dialect is as credible as concluding that you Brits speak French, but badly, because of the Viking troops from France that invaded your rainy islands. It is true that those from Lleida speak similarly to the Northern Valencians, but that is quite beyond your comprehension and you only repeat out of knee-jerk, parrot-automaton reactions. It is clear however that you will not make amends to your mistakes because I have been watching you, and this has become more of a matter of pride than truth for you. Tirant Lo Blanc was written in Valencian--who are you, a nobody, an obsessive-compulsive control freak troll on Wikipedia, to contradict Joanot Martorell on what language he wrote in? In a local, Spanish basis Valencian is the valid denomination. Internationally, to differentiate the language from Castilian Spanish, French, Italian etc--it would be valid to use the umbrella denomination of Valencian-Catalan as overall literature. If you had any SENY you would see this, but you seem to have only picked up the mind-limiting aspects of Barcelona rather than its positive attributes. I will be happy to discuss things with you once you begin to adopt neutral perspectives rather than act as an agent for the IEC.

Please read Wikipedia:No personal attacks.

Wrong

1. Completely wrong your apreciations about the catalan spoken in Catalonia and the Arabic spoken in Valencia. In fact, Catalonia did not exist by that time. And there are strong proofs that in the Valencia under the muslim rule our romance was spoken widely. In any case, if the language was brought here by the conquerors, they were mainly from Aragon, and in minor quantities from Navarra, Barcelona, Urgel, Castilian and south of France. This population mixed with the valencian population wich did not abandone Valencia, (The whole population stayed here). Valencia became a mixed race city. Please, study a little more before saying your asseverations.

1. This opinion yours that all is the same language is not a scientific opinion, but a political one. And the fact that you live in Langedoc explains everything. You are not neutral. Each people in the world has the right to decide the name of their language. We, in Valencia call it Lengua Valenciana since 7 centuries ago. Why in the hell must we now accept the imperialistic definitions from catalans? Because they have more money? Because they began earlier to shout and to put their name before all the world? This is a nonsense.

1. THe unity of the language is evidently not a consensus between linguists. Where have you taken it from?

1. You despise the vigent conception of the Valenciano in all the world.

It is clear that YOU ARE NOT NEUTRAL. YOU HAVE POLITICAL AFFINITIES THAT MAKE YOU NOT OBJETIVE, AND YOU PRETEND THEM TO BE "SCIENTIFIC". AND YOUR ASSEVERATIONS ARE BECOMING EVEN OFFENSIVE. YOU ARE NOT A VALID INTERLOCUTOR. Yo even calumniate others. The page from the german Wikipedia has been made by germans. Does your nationalism arrive to the extreme to acussate them of anti-catalans? I cannot believe so much .... (I cannot find the words).--Wikiküntscher 23:10, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Stub removed

Joanot, in removing the "Catalonia stub" from the article all you are doing is making it far harder for any editors to find this article to expand. In other words, your action is working against Wikipedia's ability to properly promote or present reasonable articles about the issue. This harms Wikipedia and - indirectly - disfavours Land of Valencia. If you think that a stub could be used for Land of Valencia, feel free to propose one at WP:WSS/P.

Besides, your deletion of Catalonia-stub is quite a non-sense. The article says "Tirant lo Blanc is one of the most important books of Catalan literature". It's obious that there is some kind of relationship between "Catalan literature" and "Catalonia". Of course, if a "catalan literature stub" or a "catalan language stub" were created, this stub reference should be moved from generic Catalonia to one of these ones.

You can propose the creation of such stubs. But removing the link before is an act of vandalism. --Joan sense nick 17:36, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, you're on truth. But Catalan language is related to Catalonia as to Land of Valencia too. So I think that the best choice is leave there with both stubs, until there is a more especific one almost. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 18:15, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Jsut some information for cultural purposes: Where does the word "Catalán" comes from: It is French. It means the "inhabitant of the Castles" or "Chastlains" or "castlans" (exactly the same than "Castilian"). When the word "Catalán" appears for the first time. In 1115, mentioned by an italian cronist. When Catalonia became really independent?. By the Treaty of Corbeil, in 1248 when the French Monarchie gave up his rights on the Marca Hispanica castles. Where was the idealised hero of Barcelona Wifredo el Vellosos born : in France, in Carcassone. Was Roger of Lauria, the "great catalonian hero" catalán. Not at all, he was born in Lauria (Italy) and served the King of Aragón. Were there Kings in Cataluña. No, never existed. Were there a Principado of Cataluña?. No, never. It is a Prince of Gerona, but never was Cataluña a Principado. Stop trying to be what you are not. You may be proud of some other things, but neither you have ever been a Kingdom, not a Principado, nor you have had a clasic literature in catalán. Catalán is a dialect steaming from latin, exactly the same than castillian, provenzal, italian or valenciano. The difffrence is that, while Valenciano had a dictionary (Liber Elegantiarum), clasic romans (Tirant lo Blanch), traslations of the Bible to Valenciano (Bonifacio Ferrer), etc.. (ALL THEM MENTIONING BLACK ON WHITE THAT THEY WROTE IN VALENCIANO LANGUAGE), the Catalans had nothing, and this is way the catalans desperately need to try to absorb the Valenciano, becuase in catalan there is nothing to show. However, culture is culture, and mixtifications are only for ignorants. Jose Sanchez

Jsut some information for cultural purposes: Where does the word "Catalán" comes from: It is French. It means the "inhabitant of the Castles" or "Chastlains" or "castlans" (exactly the same than "Castilian"). When the word "Catalán" appears for the first time. In 1115, mentioned by an italian cronist. When Catalonia became really independent?. By the Treaty of Corbeil, in 1248 when the French Monarchie gave up his rights on the Marca Hispanica castles. Where was the idealised hero of Barcelona Wifredo el Vellosos born : in France, in Carcassone. Was Roger of Lauria, the "great catalonian hero" catalán. Not at all, he was born in Lauria (Italy) and served the King of Aragón. Were there Kings in Cataluña. No, never existed. Were there a Principado of Cataluña?. No, never. It is a Prince of Gerona, but never was Cataluña a Principado. Stop trying to be what you are not. You may be proud of some other things, but neither you have ever been a Kingdom, not a Principado, nor you have had a clasic literature in catalán. Catalán is a dialect steaming from latin, exactly the same than castillian, provenzal, italian or valenciano. The difffrence is that, while Valenciano had a dictionary (Liber Elegantiarum), clasic romans (Tirant lo Blanch), traslations of the Bible to Valenciano (Bonifacio Ferrer), etc.. (ALL THEM MENTIONING BLACK ON WHITE THAT THEY WROTE IN VALENCIANO LANGUAGE), the Catalans had nothing, and this is way the catalans desperately need to try to absorb the Valenciano, becuase in catalan there is nothing to show. However, culture is culture, and mixtifications are only for ignorants. Jose Sanchez

spelling

I moved the article to show its original spelling "Blanch" in the article's title. I see no reason to adapt the spelling to a modern one, nontheless because the original spelling is actually kept in many modern reprints. Hope this is not controversial. Mountolive _{le déluge} 01:12, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

As a source for Don Quixote

This article claims that Tirant lo Blanch is a major influence on Don Quixote, and makes several other related claims, but none of them are properly referenced. I added several appropriate templates. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 08:24, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Excerpt from Cervantes

In my text of Don Quijote (Madrid, Espasa-Calpe, 21st edition, 1960), what the village priest says about Tirant el Blanco differs slightly from the English translation given in this article:

• The Lady Empress is in love not with “the” squire Hipólito but with “his” squire Hipólito.
• The knights do not “die even doing a will” but they “die in their beds, and make a will before they die”.
• It was not that the author “deserved to have this book written because he did not do as many silly things as to deserve to be thrown to the galleys” but “he who wrote this deserved, since he did not do so much foolery on purpose, to be sent to the galleys”.

--Hors-la-loi 15:21, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

° I am a Bulgarian citizen, raised in Gandia, kin to Joan Martorell, and I can hardly stop myself from crying when reading these disputes. I speak 5 languages, and I can recognize and understand most variations of the same language, when not too different from the one I learnt. Most who have posted here ignore that the language of Tirant lo Blanch is not the same as modern day Valencian or Catalan, just as Old English and Old German aren't the same as their modern DIALECTS. The word DIALECT is not offensive, it means that what people speak has evolved to other words and sounds, while still intelligible by speakers of other dialects, including officially accepted ones. If I understand Argentinians and Andalucians, even if they named their speech with a different name, it would still be part of the same language. Unless Valencians stop understanding Catalonians, it will still be the same language, regardless of the name legally accepted and used. Fighting over a name is dull and absurd, just as the fight for forbidding same-sex marriages because it wouldn't be accurate to call it marriage, as it's between two men (forgetting that two women would be forming exactly a marriage between two potential mothers). The name is irrelevant. Both modern day Catalans and Valencians have difficulty understanding the original Tirant lo Blanch, while no struggle to communicate between each other. Both are dialects of an older variant, which was a dialect of another language (Latin), which was a dialect of another speech (Proto-romanic), derived from Indo-European, and so on. Forgive my incorrect posting, I have never edited a Wikipedia page, just couldn't hold myself with these unnecessary and out-of-topic fights.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:810D:1480:E02C:A5E0:CE6E:C4ED:9B76 (talk) 20:29, 31 May 2017 (UTC) 

External links modified

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International name of the language

All the sources used in the article use the name "Catalan", which is also the international name for that language. If you look at the page history, the article said "Catalan" ever since it was created and, even though some users with no sources have been trying to change it a few times (sometimes successfully for relatively long periods), the article has been consistently using the internationally recognised name for most of its history. LucenseLugo is trying to change the name, presumably on the grounds that the official name of that language in the region this book was written is "Valencian". But the fact that a name is official does not mean it is the most suitable name for English speakers (take a look at pages like "Valencia" or "Castellón de la Plana", which employ the names most commonly known to English speakers instead of the official names "València" or "Castelló de la Plana"; even LucenseLugo himself has a history of discussing the inclusion of non-official names on those very grounds). English sources (such as those on the article) most commonly use the name "Catalan", and that is therefore the name that should be used. Notice, on the other hand, that the other user who was trying to change the name (the IP 84.124.250.106) is a cross-wiki vandal who got blocked from the English wiki and whose edits in the Spanish wiki led the editors to protect the page (and whose edits have also been reverted in the Galician and Basque wikis). 79.117.89.135 (talk) 18:10, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

All the sources use the name "Catalan", which also happens to be the most accessible name for English speakers.

Source 2: "A Catalan classic rediscovered"

Source 3: it was originally published as part of the collection "Catalan Studies: Translations and Criticism" (Peter Lang Publishing).

Source 4: "it was written in Catalan" (page 2 of the translator's foreword).

Source 5: Among the Catalan literature of the late Middle Ages, the chivalric romance entitled Tirant lo Blanc is one of the best known works

Source 6: Rosenthal, the first translator into English of the masterpiece of the literature in Catalan language, written by the Valencians Joanot Martorell and Martí Joan de Galba, was boycotted in his first attempt to give a talk in the city [Valencia].

Source 7: Only in the late 1940s did Hispanists begin to awaken to the considerable literary qualities of this unique Catalan work of fiction.

Source 8: it is a study on Catalan proverbs.

Source 10: its "Advertissement" states: "Advertissement au roman de chevalerie intotulé Histoire du vailant chevalier Tiran le Blanc, traduit de l'original catalan, de Marstorabie, par le comte de Caluys".

(I'll add all citations from all the other references later).

So read the references and stop accusing people of "vandalism". Nobody but LucenseLugo has cast any doubts on this wording. If anything, a vandal is someone who goes around changing the content of an article at will without considering the sources that support that very content. 79.116.118.247 (talk) 13:49, 4 June 2024 (UTC)