Talk:Torf-Einarr

Death date

Crawford writing in 2004 says he was living in the 930s. I'm inclined to take modern scholarship over the date from 1916. DrKiernan (talk) 19:28, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Somehow I missed this suggestion. The dates for the early earls are mostly guesswork but I will take a proper look at this asap. Ben MacDui 17:17, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

There is a more general blether at Talk:Earl of Orkney#Dates. The suggestions for Torf-Einarr's death are:

• Johnston (July 1916) (see over)
• Muir, Tom (2005) Orkney in the Sagas: The Story of the Earldom of Orkney as told in the Icelandic Sagas. The Orcadian. Kirkwall. In the Preface the table lists T-Einarr as "d. c. 910" which is pretty much all that Johnston says.
• Crawford (2004) as you suggest has him living until the 930s.
• Crawford (1987) Scandinavian Scotland repeats c. 910.

I'm not aware of any hard evidence either way. Two of his sons died c. 954 and the third, Thorfinn, possibly c 963. If you guess that Einarr already a child prior to his Orkney sojourn then his death in 910 as a man in late middle age or older is reasonable. If you guess that its more likely that his two oldest sons were well under 50 when they died than perhaps 930 is your answer. I am all in favour of modern scholarship if it's well argued but the evidence available to 19th century historians does not (in this case at least) seem to be any different to that available today. Possibly the best solution is to enlarge slightly on these speculations in the article. Ben MacDui 18:18, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

These two dates seem to be at the extreme ends of the range, so perhaps the range should be given, e.g.

| reign = c. 895<ref >Smyth (1984) p. 153</ref> to 910<ref name=Johnston393/> or later<ref name=crawford/>

| death_date = 910<ref name=Johnston393/> to 930s<ref name=crawford/>"

If you do wish to say something of how the dates are calculated, then Mike Ashley's British Monarchs [a general popular compendium not a specialist work] gives regnal dates of "c894–?920" (p441) and says "Allowing for the ages of his sons to succeed him he must have ruled to at least the year 920 or later." (p442). So, that could be used to put together a sentence along the lines you're thinking of, though I'm happy just with the range personally. DrKiernan (talk) 18:48, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for these suggestions. I'll look at it again soon. Ben MacDui 07:38, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Torf-Einarr/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Seattle (talk · contribs) 07:54, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

I will review this soon. Seattle (talk) 07:54, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the review - I will make a start soon and hope to address all the issues in the next couple of days. Ben MacDui 17:22, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Formatting, files and references

• Why do you force the notes and footnotes to be small?

I think someone asked for this at FAC a while ago and if the refs get voluminous it helps condense thing but it isn't necessary here. Amended.

• Use bold text, not a semi-colon, to format the "References" section headers

Done, although I am curious as to why you think this is desirable.

• One dead link

It certainly pops up as one on the list, although the link still worked as a redirect. Fixed.

• Can you add a {{Link language}} to the external link to denote what language it's in?

I couldn't make this work so I just added "(Old Norse)".

• Images in text should generally be right justified per MOS:IMAGELOCATION; I don't think an exception is warranted here

Done.

• The file in the "Legacy" section breaks the next header on my laptop; can you add a {{clear}} to the bottom of the section?

Done.

• Link to Wiktionary through [[:wikt:historicity|historicity]], not an external link

Done.

• File:Odin rides to Hel.jpg: needs a template at the Commons to denote why it's in the public domain in the US, which it is; I would suggest Commons:Template:PD-1923

Done.

• File:LandnamabokManuscriptPage.jpg: The photo is not under copyright in Iceland, and its "Permission" parameter should be updated to reflect. Photograph needs a template update with a rational why it's PD in Iceland, which it is, as it's an anonymous work + 70 years. I will do this, if you don't mind.

By all means.

• Use ndashes in the page ranges in the references

Done

• Be consistent with ISBN hyphenations in the "general references"

Done.

• "Phelpstead, Karl (ed) (2001)" isn't used as an inline citation, or, if it is, you should clarify where it's being used.

It's ref #7

• Same for Dasent, Sir George W. (1894)

I used the more up-to-date Pálsson and Edwards translation so I have moved this to Ext links

• Reference 11 won't load on my computer; does it load for yours?

It's the 'dead link' refered to above - yes? It did work for me but it should now be fixed.

• Dasent, Sir George W. (1894) won't load either.

Fixed but moved per the above.

Seattle (talk) 23:38, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Sources

• were written down at the time of the events they record about his life. why not just were written down during his life?

Done.

• which is of a similar vintage what does this mean?

Age per wiktionary.

Family Background

• hence his byname of "Ganger-Hrólf" I don't quite follow the relation between his size and the nickname; can you provide an English translation?

Done - it means "Hrólf the Walker" and I changed the byname to the ON version used by P & Edwards. ('Gang' is Scots meaning 'to go' and the meaning may be more obvious to us).

• Rollo of Normandy Pipe to just "Rollo" here

Done.

• Ragnhild any context on who she was?

Added a note about her background. There is a bit more about her role in the Heimskringla but I don't think much, perhaps any more is known about her ancestry.

• Hallad, Einarr and Hrollaug were natural sons what's a "natural son"? Can you clarify this?

Linked - it is essentially a euphemism for illegitimate, although it's not entirely certain what this may have meant in the context of 9th century Norway (as opposed to at the time the sagas were written down). It's the phrase used in the Pálsson and Edwards translation of the OS.

• Can you merge the last paragraph with the last sentence?

Done - although note that the first part is about Torf-Einarr’s Saga and the last sentence is not.

Rise to Power

• summoning his sons Thorir and Hrolluag to do what?

I have added a clarifying sentence.

• who had taken residence there and then established himself as earl. who? Treebeard, Kalf, or Einarr?

Clarified

Relations with Norway

• The sagas say that King Harald again with given names; why not use his surname (but I'm probably ignorant of something here)

It is part of the saga style to refer to 'King Harald', 'Earl Sigurd' etc., but there is no a priori reason to use this. These folk did not have 'surnames' as such, but rather patronymics (Rognvald Eysteinsson, Einarr Rognvaldarson) and, as often as not, a byname (Harald Fairhair, Torf-Einarr etc). Amended.

• blood-eagle no need for hyphen; blood-eagle again in the next paragraph

Done. The Frank reference has a hyphen in the source and is retained.

• Again, why surnames for Longlegs?

It's not a surname, its a byname. Halvdan Hålegg is his name in Norse, Hálfdan Longlegs is the English translation. (One assumes he was a tall man.) I have added something here to make this more explicit.

• Can you link "turve"?

Done.

Legacy

• Can you clarify from which text the couplet came from?

It's a direct quote from the O. saga. I have added a ref.

• Einarr must have had some fame as a poet does Poole (1991) pp. 169–170 state this, or is this original research? Google Books doesn't show a preview of the relevant pages.

It's from Poole.

• "Landnámabók" needs italics in the caption

Fixed.

Interpretations

• On the other hand is an idiom; can you replace with something such as "however"?

Done.

General

• The lead makes the statement that Torf-Einarr won control of the Northern Isles, but the article itself makes little note of Shetland. Can you clarify this in the body of the article somewhere?

Good point. Although Shetland was a major part of the territory the O. saga is fairly quiet about it, especially at this early stage. Even in the time of Brusi Sigurdsson, (Einarr's great-great-grandson) its not clear which of the joint earls ruled Shetland specifically.

• Perhaps it's worthy to mention that the sagas may come from Einarr's works in the "Sources" section.

Done.

• Duplication detector reports for the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography and Buckland, Paul (26 March 2002) yield no dubious results. Seattle (talk) 06:16, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

That's them all attempted I think. Ben MacDui 21:16, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

I made some final edits. Passing; thanks for the responses. Seattle (talk) 18:11, 11 January 2015 (UTC)