Talk:Toyota Soarer

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Untitled

I am against this suggestion to merge with "Toyota Soarer," because the Soarer has been discontinued in Japan and the Lexus SC is now sold there. All future successors to the coupe will be named Lexus SC.

It might possibly work to merge the Soarer article with the Lexus SC article, instead of the other way around. Note that the Toyota Aristo, Toyota Altezza articles do not exist; they are respectively merged in the Lexus GS and Lexus IS articles. There are no longer Aristos or Altezzas sold in Japan; these are now all-new Lexus vehicles.

You can see the SC sold in Japan as such here: http://lexus.jp/models/sc/index.html

One problem however with merging is that the 1st and 2nd generation Toyota Soarers were NOT Lexus SC's. Perhaps then the Soarer article should remain, much like the Toyota Cressida article, to keep information for the 1st and 2nd generation Soarer vehicles.Enigma3542002 08:02, 26 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

also, note in May 2006 there was a "consensus not to merge" reached. Enigma3542002 08:04, 26 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have edited the article to more make a more distinct clarification on the Lexus SC vs. Toyota Soarer differences and similarities, and to indicate the timeline of the Soarer's production cycle. Based on these changes, it would make sense to keep both articles separate, as the earlier consensus indicated. Enigma3542002 09:40, 26 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Toyota Soarer did recieve a 2JZ-GTE engine in models corresponding frum 1990-1997 which was twin turbo and then as of 1994-1997 got a single turbo instead of twin turbo and the 1JZ-GTE being the main turbo model sold with updated turbos in 1995

MERGE, i think the merging of the Toyota Models as in the Aristo to GS etc are very flawed. As for the Aristo and Altezza , Harrier , Windom and Land Cruiser (not to be confused with the Land Cruiser 100 which was sold as the regular Land Cruiser sold in the USA) predated its counterparts marketed in America. So i think merging the articles flaw insight on the models. I see there was no issue that all the HOnda models all got seperate pages and denotes altho there are many flaws about asian model marketed versions and relation to other models but they were seperated. The Aristo , altho going directly under the Lexus Marque in 2006 predates the american GS by almost 3 years has lots of non similar features not listed . Just as the Soarer . All the models i see merged as in the Altezza/IS , Aristo/GS , Harrier should atleast show both names of the vehicle past of persent on the page or get its own page. The pages are merged and have flawed information, and also most teh information reflects just the american models and not the model it derived frum (as in Aristo to the GS etc)Kongkit (talk) 19:55, 25 January 2009 (UTC)KongkitKongkit (talk) 19:55, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The reason Lexus stopped selling their models in Japan is because of the popularity of the badge in Japan and it was a result of demands of rebadging them as Lexus as many owners did so, the reason why I am for a merge is they are the same body style after all and even if the Soarer have been two generations longer than the SC just as straightforard as that, I have to say the main reason why people would object a luxury car being called Toyota is because they are label whore themselves. Willirennen 08:02, 27 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to merge Soarer with SC, that was debated before and a consensus was achieved to reject that. However, if you are so adamant about merging, then it would be better to merge into the Lexus SC article just as the Altezza and Aristo articles are merged into the IS and GS articles, respectively.

However the SC continues while the Soarer has stopped. And the Soarer was available before the SC, which presents a conundrum. Enigma3542002 08:59, 27 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How about a change of heart, I have changed the merge nomination around Willirennen 20:12, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To be very honest, these two pages describes them both as personal luxury coupé and I am not prepared to take any s**t for some of these excuses. Discussion continues here.

Edited the article *again* to clear up the production dates. Note that the JDM Soarer production dates DO NOT correspond with their US Lexus counterparts! Sciflyer (talk) 12:51, 11 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Tidied up both the introduction for clarity/brevity and the Z30 section for neutrality. Added some further Z30 information (specs, cost) Sciflyer (talk) 06:48, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

incorrect/inconsistent information regarding the Z10 Soarer

I've tidied this up the MZ-10 came with a 5M-GE in its base model, as well as an optional M-TEU, The GZ-10 came in both single cam and twin cam 1G engines. the MZ-11 came with either a 5M-GE or optional 6M-GE in the "limited" guise with the MZ12 coming with the 6M-GE, audible warnings, TEMS, airbag suspension, Multi-vision CRT and optional velour interior.

There were 3 trim options for the Z10 series soarer these included cloth, Leather, and Velour, having owned a number of Z10's and with a 3rd one in my garage currently I have some authority to speak on the issue

Also the JZZ31 came with a 2JZ-GE not a 2JZ-GTE, all 2JZ-GTE powered Soarers are conversions or have had aftermarket bolt on turbo manifolds put on

As for merging the Soarer with the SC400 and SC430 articles, well that's a very American way of looking at things. It's not about badge snobbery, the Z10 and Z20 Soarer came out well before Lexus was even a pipe dream the early cars are not a Lexus by another name nor are the Toyota Aristo or Celsior really

The Z10 and Z20 deserve a thread unto themselves as they're a closer relative to the Toyota Supra then they are to any Lexus, in fact the Toyota Soarer and Toyota Supra shared the same floor pan up until the release of the UZZ40 which is really a red hearing and not a Soarer

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.187.83.214 (talk) 05:39, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Soarer World discussion

In an attempt to avert an open edit war between multiple anonymous IP editors, I've started this section so that interested parties can engage in a civil, good-faith discussion and, hopefully, arrive at some sort of consensus. Note that I personally have no interest in the subject matter at hand; I'm just trying to minimize the disruption to the Wikipedia community. Cheers! -- Bgpaulus (talk) 12:44, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have cleared out the external links section of spam and requested semi-protection for the page. If the edit war continues I will report people at wp:AN3 Yoenit (talk) 12:47, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

10 July 2010

Thanks for taking this action Bgpaulus.

To explain, there are several expert Soarer community forums around the world that would like to have their links reinstated on this page.

You can see from the history of this page that the edit war arose in June 2010 because one contributor took the hypertext link called 'Soarer World' (a UK based forum) and pointed it to the URL of their own (Australia-based) forum.

I'd suggest an equitable way forward would be for the correct links to all these Soarer forums to be reinstated to your satisfaction, and the page then locked again to prevent the vandalism re-ocurring.

Regards - 82.22.149.205 (talk) 19:45, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your post, 82.22.149.205. I appreciate your suggestions, but I do have a couple of concerns about them: First, consenus is Wikipedia's fundamental model for editorial decision-making. If it will help move this discussion forward, then I'm happy to mediate/facilitate it, but which links should or should not be included is a decision that should be shared by all. Second, Wikipedia is built around the principle that anyone can edit it and page protection should normally be a temporary exception, rather than a permanent condition. Perhaps it would be helpful if we review the disputed links and discuss whether or not they are relevant to the article, keeping in mind Wikipedia's content guideline on external links, especially the section on links to normally be avoided. I should also point out that there is an external links noticeboard, which is a place to obtain a consensus for local disputes or questions involving external links; I have no problem moving this conversation there, if that's more appropriate. Cheers! -- Bgpaulus (talk) 14:40, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

11 July 2010

Hi Bgpaulus - thanks for picking this up. I think most editors of this page were content with this list of external links:

Soarer World (The UK home for all things Soarer)

Russian Toyota Soarer Owners Club (RU)

Planet Soarer

Soarer Owners Club in Japan (English)

Z20 Soarer International Owners Club(English)

Intellexual.net SC300/400 FAQ

Information on the second generation (Z2) Toyota Soarer

The Toyota JZ Engine Guide

The Australian Lexus Soarer Club user forum (The original home of the Australian Soarer movement)

We could leave this list up here for a few days to see if anyone disagrees?

The reason I would like this list to be then locked is to stop a repetition of the vandalism done to this list by the person who is using the string of IPs beginning 95.211.102.59.xxx

Specifically this person took the 'Soarer World' hypertext and kept pointing it to the URL of their own (Australia-based)forum called Soarer Central. You can see one of many examples of their unacceptable behaviour here, at 07:22 on 29 June:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Toyota_Soarer&oldid=370748506

I sent an email complaint to Wikipedia about this on 30 June 2010, but heard nothing back.

So what is concerning user 115.128.65.116 and me is how we can prevent this person from continuing to act in bad faith over these links.

Regards - 82.22.149.205 (talk) 16:56, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My view, as the person who deleted the list, is that either all the owners clubs or none of them should be included. As the first option would probably give a very long list, I think none of them should be here. Please also note that one of the links, "Information on the second generation Toyoya Soarer" is expired. Yoenit (talk) 21:31, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

12 July 2010

Hi Yoenit - actually the Soarer is such a specialist subject that you've pretty much got the full list of reputable sites' links here now. The only other one I'd add would be http:// www.lextreme.com/

I've never heard of that dead link's site - happy to let that go.

Cheers 82.22.149.205 (talk) 17:11, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

13 July 2010

Hi Yoenit - My name is Robert Hayden and I own and started the first Australian Lexus / Soarer site way back in 1997. This site is called the ALSC(Australian Lexus Soarer Club) and runs a free membership discussion forum at www.alscforum.com and also a technical orientated site at www.lexusaustralia.org. I also was in te UK and assisted Messers Smith and Lewis to establish the UK site Soarer World which has been running as a vlauable source of Soarer information, particularly to UK residents for many years. Over the years there have been many informative sites dedicated to the Soarer and Lexus SC series motor cars. These include: Lextreme (http:// lextreme.com) Planet Soarer (www.planetsoarer.com) Soarer World (www.soarerworld.com) Club Lexus USA (http:// www.clublexus.com/) Japan Soarer Club (http:/ /www.soarer.ne.jp/index-e.html) Russian Soarer Club (http:// soarer-club.ru) Intellexual USA (http:// www.intellexual.net) Lexus Australia (www.lexusaustralia.org) and naturally the ALSC forum, Australias original Soarer / Lexus discussion forum (http:// alscforum.com) The Soarer / Lexus SC400 is a very specific motor car, and the majority of the sites above will be in a position to assist owners of these amazing vehicles and direct them to a specific resource. There has been some annoying behaviour lately as some of the liks have been edited to point to another Australian site that developed in recent times. I'm not going to point the finger, but it seems that the actions of the person responsible for this editing goes against what would be deemed to be proper behaviour, and now all links have been removed, so that the general public now suffers due to the actions of one individual. I believe that this behaviour could be averted in the future by re-instating the correct links, and then removing the edit tab for that section. Once the appropriate links are in place, there is no need to edit them unless the links change, and any of those site owners can always contact you using this page to ask for the link to be manually changed as required. The details below may assist you to correct and then lock the links page.

[http:// alscforum.com/ The Australian Lexus Soarer Club user forum (The original home of the Australian Soarer movement)]
[http:// www.lexusaustralia.org/ Australian Lexus Soarer Club]
[http:// www.soarerworld.com/ Soarer World (The UK home for all things Soarer)]
[http:// soarer-club.ru/ Russian Toyota Soarer Owners Club (RU)]
[http:// planetsoarer.com/ Planet Soarer]
[http:// www.soarer.ne.jp/index-e.html Soarer Owners Club in Japan (English)]
[http:// www.z20soarer.org/forums Z20 Soarer International Owners Club(English)]
[http:// www.intellexual.net/ Intellexual.net SC300/400 FAQ]
[http:// www.z2soarer.info Information on the second generation (Z2) Toyota Soarer]
[http:// autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/A_2750/article.html The Toyota JZ Engine Guide]
[http:// lextreme.com/ Lextreme USA] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Uzz32soarer (talk • contribs) 09:45, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

13 July 2010

Robert's suggestions seem very sensible to me

82.22.149.205 (talk) 10:21, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please understand that I am not an administrator and do not have the power to lock a page. Also, locking a specific section is not possible as far as I know. Feel free to reinstate the links given above though, your arguments have convinced me. Yoenit (talk) 10:22, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

14 July 2010

Hi Yoenit - thanks for your prompt decision. I don't seem able to paste these links into the article - do you or Bgpaulus need to 'release' it in some way ?

Cheers -82.22.149.205 (talk) 10:06, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is semi protected for two more days. A registered user (such as user:Uzz32soarer) can edit the page now and everybody can do it in after 16 July Yoenit (talk) 11:53, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Did it myself right now. Please note I changes (The UK home for all things Soarer) to (UK based site) as I found the first to be somewhat promotional. Feel free to change it to something else if you want, but try to keep it neutral. Yoenit (talk) 11:56, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My opinion: remove them all. None of these external links meet WP:EL and I commend the editor who took the initiative to remove them. I routinely clean up articles on cars such as these and external links to automotive fanclubs and forums, as well as to sites which don't improve a reader's encyclopedic understanding of the subject, are to be removed. WP:ELNO points 1, 10, and 11 come into play here. Them From Space 01:01, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Yeonit - many thanks for your prompt help in repairing the vandalism of Soarer forum links

Hi Themfromspace - I can sympathise with your view of car clubs and forums, whose members can sometimes get very blinkered and emotional. Fortunately there are a few 'grown up' sites and forums where highly qualified members are researching and adding to the global sum of knowledge about such specialist cars.

So while this well written Soarer Wiki page is a great overview and introduction to the marque, it's the good linked forums that take our knowledge to the next level of practical and more encyclopaedic detail, helping us all to keep these exotic and elderly machines running ;-) - Cheers - 82.22.149.205 (talk) 08:40, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Long term abuse, edit warring and spamming of soarerworld.com

This has been a long-term problem both in this article and others. Long term spamming in which conduct has severely disrupted the project and its articles. Particularly disturbing is moving ones own link "UP", Adding sneaky redirecting sites [1][2], edit warring excessivly (for years) on this article which recently caused the article to be locked). All of which are NOT a sign of good faith. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia - as such many links do not belong here. Equally Wikipedia is not a place to to promote soarerworld.com. In addition, soarerworld.com is a Link normally to be avoided and fails Wikipedias specific inclusion requirements of our External Links policy, Verifiability Policy and Reliable Source guidelines.

Accounts spamming soarerworld.com

Appears there is also a long term spam war with soarercentral.com;

these Accounts include
95.211.102.81 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
95.211.102.128 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
95.211.102.192 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
95.211.102.115 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
95.211.102.128 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
95.211.102.125 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
203.122.245.12 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)

So per;

Wikipedia:BLOCK#Disruption
- Persistent spamming
- persistent vandalism;
- edit warring, especially breaches of the three-revert rule;
- breaching the sock puppetry policy;
- persistently violating other policies or guidelines.
- Accounts that appear, based on their edit history, to exist for the sole or primary purpose of promoting a person, company, product, service, or organization in apparent violation of Conflict of interest or anti-spam guidelines.

Both soarerworld.com and soarercentral.com have been removed and blacklisted.--Hu12 (talk) 18:08, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yet another image disagreement

Original

Proposed by 83.8.44.126

Anon-ip editor 83.8.44.126 wants to change the main Z40 image. I prefer to keep the original. We've been through 2 change+revert cycles already. The new image was captured from very close up, making the nose appear overly large and bulbous - which WP:CARPIX advises us to avoid in tip 3. It shows very little of the general shape of the car. Whereas the original shows the shape quite well and without distortion. Any comments? Stepho talk 11:45, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]