Talk:1992 Yugoslav People's Army column incident in Tuzla

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Disputes.

All we need here is sources.

Cees Wiebes, in Intelligence and the war in Bosnia, 1992-1995 writes that Tuzla case was attack on the unarmed or disarmed troops. But in some videos soldiers are carrying weapons, so we need source for that.

I hidden this sentence :

The plan was to retreat from the barracks inside the city to fortified positions around it- JNA officers claimed to be withdrawing to Serbia, but broke the agreement by opening fire on civilians and objects in the city of the newly independent state of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Per it is completely unsourced. Asking from PRODUCER to find source for those. I reverted video, you tube can be placed in external links by wiki rules. also, that is video from Local television "MFS 3", so it is definitively not fake.

Find some good sources, for fatalities, and motives too, and please dont revert this version. I removed all questionable things. Tadija (talk) 20:32, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I removed some unsourced info and added sourced information. Where is the tuzla case mentioned in the Wiebes book? ◅ P R O D U C E R _(TALK) 23:14, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Now it's ok! I removed <npov> template. If we have more sources to explain attack, bring them here! PRODUCER, i cant find it now, yesterday was reading about. But that is under ?, they were armed. That was army retreating, at the end! Of course that they were armed. They just have order not to attack. I'll find it, and place here. This version is cool, please dont add questionable sources until we talk about them here... --Tadija (talk) 21:06, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of "Zelene Beretke" as a participant in the incident

I have removed it as no source indicates it was involved. Citadel48 (talk) 05:38, 1 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOTMEMORIAL

G'day, the list of names in Cyrillic is pointless on en WP, and I believe it is unnecessary. Consensus regarding massacre articles (if in fact this was such) is to use reliable sources for the number of dead, not list all their names. Otherwise the Srebrenica massacre article (for example) would be enormous. I propose removing the list on that basis. Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 22:44, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest you engage with other editors on talk. There appears to be a case of WP:OWN developing here. I will RfC this now. Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 05:06, 7 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

www.ex-yupress.com

www.ex-yupress.com is the main source used for this article. It could definitely do with some other (perhaps more neutral) sources. I have capnoted the article to this effect. Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 09:20, 3 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the copy and pasting from this site. This is not grade school....we need editors to take the effort to write content in their own words over copy and pasting from websites. -- Moxy (talk) 00:48, 8 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hoare

An editor has been twice removed a passage from an Associate Professor at Kingston University regarding the circumstances under which the JNA attempted to leave Tuzla. This is because (apparently), he is opinionated. The majority of the material in this article is sourced from a Republika Srpska news service, which is likely to be biased itself. Clear POV-pushing occurring here. An RfC will be commenced on this matter. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 00:14, 7 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

RfC: Should this article include a list of the names of the Yugoslav National Army soldiers killed?

This RfC was closed because consensus was reached to exclude "the names of the Yugoslav National Army soldiers killed." However, a consensus was further reached that, if any specific individuals were notable for reasons other than this event, that they could be included. LavaBaron (talk) 07:54, 23 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should the list of names of the Yugoslav National Army soldiers killed in this incident be listed in the article? Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 05:10, 7 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I believe so, as the list isn't overly long, isn't irrelevant, nor is it in need of a separate page.Citadel48 (talk) 05:45, 7 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Surely a simple sentence that states that XX JNA soldiers were allegedly killed would suffice, even adding a summary of where they were from. I believe listing them by name is WP:UNDUE, and inconsistent with other similar articles like Vukovar massacre, Paulin Dvor massacre etc. Then there is the issue of WP:NOTMEMORIAL. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 06:10, 7 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

no, this is not called for...it's not done in military history articles and I can't imagine any value to the encyclopedia. Rjensen (talk) 12:06, 7 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - Per Peacemaker and Rjensen. Of cse state the number of casualties; however, unless any of them were somehow otherwise notable, then I do not see any justification to include their names. Anotherclown (talk) 15:39, 7 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose agree with PM67, Rjensen and Anotherclown. If the number of fatalities was smaller (say around a dozen) I would probably support, but since a lot more were killed I don't think it's appropriate to list every single name. 23 editor (talk) 20:35, 7 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Basically Oppose even if the list is short. However, If the names are available, I would not oppose an external link to a list of their names. In the case of a shorter list, placing the names in a note, not the narrative could be appropriate.--Lineagegeek (talk) 23:27, 7 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, not a memorial (too many to have listed).--Zoupan 09:59, 8 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose unless any of them are otherwise notable (normally indicated by having or qualifying for an individual wikipedia article). MilborneOne (talk) 15:48, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per WP:NOTMEMORIAL.--Darius (talk) 17:17, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose mostly, it is an encyclopedia page, not a memorial, but if any people are notable we can link to them, and an off-wiki memorial might be an OK external link. Spumuq (talq) 13:13, 1 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

???????????

The article reads: "On 15 May 1992, the JNA withdrew from its Tuzla barracks in a column of vehicles. After an attempt to leave at 14:00, the convoy was stopped at a checkpoint by elements of the Bosnia and Herzegovina TO, and was sent back to the barracks. The column left the barracks again at 19:00, heading north-east towards Bijeljina via the Brčko road. The lead vehicle contain the commander of the JNA garrison, Lieutenant Colonel Mile Dubajić, and his vehicle was followed by one containing members of the Bosnia and Herzegovina TO. When the convoy reached the intersection with the road leading east to Simin Han, it came under small arms fire from members of the Bosnia and Herzegovina TO"

Where is the part where the Serb JNA troops began shooting civilians while "retreating"? That is why they were attacked. Not opinion. It's a fact. There are videos of the "attack".--Dragodol (talk) 05:27, 8 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And your reliable source for this is? Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 07:13, 8 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I can get sources. I also know this having lived in Tuzla and family members and family friends who witnessed and were part of this "incident."--Dragodol (talk) 08:41, 8 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well, when you get reliable sources for the assertion that the JNA were shooting civilians, then please bring them here so we can discuss them. In the meantime, I'm not aware of reliable sources for that assertion, so it would be contrary to WP policy to include it. Regards, Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 09:11, 8 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Dragodol: Not a good name for a header, and why not present sources from the beginning? I too, cannot find this assertion. This video of the beginning of the attack does not support you.--Zoupan 09:55, 8 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Article name

"Tuzla column attack", "JNA column attack in Tuzla" or "1992 JNA column attack" are better article names. This event should not be called an "incident".--Zoupan 02:31, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Tuzla JNA column attack" perhaps? 23 editor (talk) 15:41, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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