Talk:Wandering Jew

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Another Instance..

Another instance of the Wandering Jew in literature is the short story 'The Wandering Jew' (Samayoeru yudayajin) by the Japanese writer Akutagawa Ryunosuke (1892 - 1927), first published in the magazine Shincho in 1917. Akutagawa took most of the material he used in the story from 'Curious Myths of the Middle Ages' (1906) by Sabine Baring-Gould (1834 - 1924 - now best remembered as author of the hymn Onward Christian Soldiers). Akutagawa mentions also a story called 'The Wandering Jew' written by the Scottish author William Sharp (1855 - 1905) under the pen-name 'Fiona Mcleod'. Sharp certainly wrote a long poem in about 1881 called 'The Wandering Jew'. Whether this is what Akutagawa had in mind I don't know. It was not known until after his death that Sharp, who published a number of biographies, romances and volumes of poetry under his own name, was also the author of the mystical writings of 'Fiona Mcleod'. A curious novel called 'My First Two Thousand Years: the Autobiography of the Wandering Jew', by George Sylvester Viereck the Elder and Paul Eldridge, was published in London in 1929. (Whether this was the first publication or not I don't know.) In the novel, the Wandering Jew is referred to as 'Isaac aforetime', which looks as though it is a rendering of the name sometimes given to him in Belgium: Isaac Laquedem. 'Laquedem', although Hebrew, is not a name. It means 'to the east' or 'to ancient times'

See also Talk:Wandering_Jew_(plant)

The wandering Jew as Cain..

I was under the impression that The Wandering Jew was Cain, and actually came here to find out a bit more about the connection. There's certainly something there, and it surely ought to be mentioned even if there are other legends about shoemakers flaoting around. I think the gist of it is that Cain wanted to die, so God said no, and sent him off to walk the earth as a punishment for his despair. He even plants the sign on his forehead which crops up in a lot of later Wandering Jew stories.

Literary sources: - The Bible - Coleridge's The Wanderings of Cain - Lewis's The Monk

==Omission==, The article omit to cite the Jean_d'Ormesson (or fr:Jean_d'Ormesson) "Histoire du juif errant" book. --Chmouel Boudjnah 14:43, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Done.. --Edcolins 20:32, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[No Longer] A Sermonette

"A more general view claims instead that he personifies any individual who has been made to see the error of his wickedness; he wanders not so much in punishment, but from a starving spiritual need for redeeming experience, to replace the soul (see self) that was once so misguided that it eventually was shattered. The teasing of Jesus' suffering, simply put, represents the callousness of mankind toward the suffering of human beings. According to the Christian view, because Jesus upon death was rejoined with the Holy Spirt, "Christ" now refers to the Holy Spirit within all of Gods creation, so that the suffering of all people should remind us of the suffering of Jesus; and that the revelatory "experience" of the "presence of Christ" will condemn the wicked "to wander" (seeking salvation).

"In Christian theology, to be "released from sin," is (salvation), and "Jesus" became "Christ," who personifies that salvation. Though the "wandering Jew" is often viewed as a damned figure, the so-called "curse" of Jesus is better thought of as a blessing; not particular to Jews, (unless using the term "Jew" in its most universal sense) for "all who sin" as being forced to wander in search of salvation.

Can anyone make something encyclopedic from this "What the "Wandering Jew" has meant to me" sermon? Wetman 20:39, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The present version of the article appears to have made the changes. There is still a small amount of the first paragraph present but it no longer reads like the sermon it once was. I'll leave a comment on your user page later to this effect. It could be helpful to have you re-read the current version and give comment. Lisapollison 16:57, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the article has been completely refreshed, to give a report of the history of the idea, the where and when of statements being such a large part of comprehending them. I shall make a Notes section and drop some of the present asides into notes. I feel the article will be better when it has its sources given in the text. --Wetman 18:16, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Wandering Jew in Literature

Shouldn't this article also discuss the Wandering Jew in literature -- everything from Melmoth the Wanderer to A Canticle for Leibowitz? [[User:GK|gK ¿?]] 11:22, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It did. A vandal passed by. I passed by. It does. JRM 11:42, 2004 Nov 10 (UTC)

I've gotten too use to the erratic quality of the wikipedia, with some important topics still being little more than stubs. I hadn't thought to check for vandalism. Thanks for the cleanup. [[User:GK|gK ¿?]] 11:58, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Should someone add a mention to "Viver!", from Machado de Assis? I could not find information in English about it.

Done. Luis Dantas 07:02, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Source?

Is this site affiliated with Wikipedia?

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=33&letter=W

It looks like the article was originally published in print form...

Clouseau 15:27, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The article was originally copied from there to here. That version of the Jewish Encyclopedia is no longer covered by copyright, and a number of Wikipedia articles on Jewish topics have been started using the articles in that encyclopedia. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:19, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

More Examples in Literature

Some possible additions to the list:

• Judge Holden is an archetypal Wandering Jew who figures prominently in Cormac McCarthy's Blood Meridian (1985), arguably as the central character.
• Carwin the Biloquist in Charles Brockden Brown's Wieland (1799) is a non-supernatural Wandering Jew who figures prominently in the plot and brings about everyone else's doom through trickery and ventriloquism.

Arak also met the wandering Jew. An issue of the Spectre established that the Phantom Stranger was active in 1200's BCE Egypt, so his being the Wandering Jew is a bit slim.

Another example from Wagner: Kundry in Parsifal (1882) is a clear parallel. See the section in Act II beginning "Kenntest du die Fluch....". That character is redeemed by Parsifal (a Christ figure) on Good Friday, complete with Christian baptism in Act III. ("Die Taufe nimm/und glaub' an den Erlöser!") < ref >Wagner, Richard: "Parsifal", New York: G. Schirmer, 1904< /ref >

Thomas Carlyle's Diogenes Teufelsdröckh in Sartor Resartus is often identified with the Wandering Jew in the course of the novel by its "editor" (the narrator).

What about Enoch Root in Neal Stephenson’s Baroque Cycle? I actually found the Wandering Jew Myth by trying to figure out who Root was based on, not vice versa, so it seems like a pretty solid connection. DavidJGross (talk) 01:06, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Various mysteries in Wandering Jew article

(Copy of discussion in Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities)

In the section on 'The Wandering Jew in Literature' I have been trying to do some disambiguation but I simply can't find a number of the writers named despite my best Googling efforts.

Does anyone know who Koehler, Franzhorn, Oeklers, Klineman and Heller are in this context? --Spondoolicks 18:31, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I'd suggest on a slender thread of conjecture the poet Sandra Kohler for the first name, profiled here. But I don't know that she ever wrote about the Wandering Jew. The rest are a mystery to me. Jwrosenzweig 23:46, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Update This section came from the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia. I checked out the online version here and tried looking up all the names. Heller is Seligmann Heller but the rest only appear in this one article. Unless of course they're normally written in a different way. --Spondoolicks 13:47, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

• "Klineman" is Ernst August Friedrich Klingemann, who published a tragedy Ahasver in 1827. See [1] and de:Ernst August Friedrich Klingemann.
• "Franzhorn" is probably Franz Horn, see [2] for minimal bio data.
• "Koehler" is one L. Köhler (published a poem entitled "Der neue Ahasver" in 1841), see de:Ewiger Jude. Sorry, no full name for that one.
• On Heller: the 1911 EB has one Sigismund Heller, too... no info found on him, though. Could that be an error in the 1911 EB?
• Oeklers: no idea.

Lupo 15:58, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

• • Update: "Koehler" is probably Ludwig Köhler, minimal bio data. Lupo 09:06, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Well done for finding these - I think it may have been the copy-editor's day off when that article was written in 1906! I have updated the Wandering Jew article (including Ludwig Köhler although you are not 100% sure) and translated that German article on Klingemann. It's still a bit of a hodge-podge at the moment though and should probably be re-written - perhaps with the more obscure works not being highlighted quite so much. --Spondoolicks 11:25, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Mormon Folklore = Book of Mormon

Someone's going to squawk at the implication that the "Book of Mormon" is folklore and not scripture. Won't be me, though. -- Richfife 19:11, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Neon Genesis Evangelion / Keel Lorenz

I notice that references to Neon Genesis Evangelion have been added and removed about 4-5 times now. Looks like thrash to me. Maybe we should get some discussion going about it. I take it as a given that NGE is notable by itself (it's a very famous series world wide and I've seen posters for it many times). Does someone who knows more about NGE want to start things out by explaining the significance of the Keel Lorenz character in the whole Neon Genesis Evangelion universe and link that to the Wandering Jew legend in general? -- Richfife 22:43, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Its not that strong a connection, the speculation is made on the official DVD, but the only real(afaic) connections are that 1) the character is really old 2) He strongly dislikes God 3) he knows a lot of ancient languages. There may be better reasons for making the connection that I don't know about. My reversion was mainly due to the previous edit summary which listed him as non-notable which is false. JoshuaZ 22:46, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Keel Lorenz is not the wandering jew, you idiot. His picture is visibly younger in newspaper clippings from 20 years prior. An immortal doesn't age in 20 years. I've had enough of this theory because it, a) recycles an apocryphal legend, and b) degrades anno and eva. Let it rest. Thank you.--70.231.161.98 03:42, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

While you may be right, there's no possible need to be so jackassish about it. RPH 03:59, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Er, do you have an episode that shows his face in a newspaper? I don't remember that. JoshuaZ 04:40, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-21/21_C107_b_big.jpg taken from episode 21. --Mark 2000 21:32, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

"Influences on Pop Culture" section, maybe?

It seems like high / low art culture war is starting erupt here. I'm pretty reliably on the inclusionist side of things, myself. The constant pulling of "unworthy" links is getting on my nerves. -- Richfife 22:57, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I have periodically removed references like the Neon Genesis one because I didn't think they were particularly relevant to the article. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. I tended to remove references that (I thought) were not really about the subject of the article, or works that don't focus primarily or significantly on the Wandering Jew, or works that are themselves non-notable. I removed the NGE one not because the series isn't notable, but because the character isn't specifically identified as the Wandering Jew, the connection is only speculated about in DVD commentary. The list is getting way too long and doesn't really serve the article; we don't need a new section devoted to every "pop culture" (or any other) reference passing editors can think of.--Cúchullain ^t/c 23:23, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

--Cúchullain ^t/c 23:23, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

"The constant pulling of "unworthy" links is getting on my nerves." Then you have no business editing an encyclopedia. Sorry, but this is not a list of trivia, not some blog site, not a fanlisting, it's supposed to be an ENCYCLOPEDIA. See WP:ENC for more information and a reality check. DreamGuy 02:04, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Per my most recent comment just below that you missed, I already abandoned the position. -- Richfife 03:23, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm starting to see your point. Every immortal or long lived character anywhere eventually winds up on this page. Time for a separate page for "Immortal characters"? I can't imagine EVERY character that acts as a witness across the millenia is inspired by the Wandering Jew -- Richfife 03:29, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Hallelujah! I'm a convert!

As of now, I'm going to remove any entry of the form "<Character X> of <literary work Y> is rumored by fans to be the Wandering Jew". I'm sure there are hundreds of them. - Richfife 16:46, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

"100 Years of Solitude" reference

I'm going to remove it, but I'm not so sure of myself that I'm not going to put a copy here:

In Gabriel García Márquez's magical realist novel One Hundred Years of Solitude, the Wandering Jew is a strange mule-like creature that spoils crops.

There's little doubt that this is one of the most notable novels, well, ever. I haven't read it, but my research indicates that the creature in question is a sort of half mule, half woman (I guess that makes it 1/4 horse, 1/4 donkey and 1/2 woman?) that despoils crops by its presence. One character conjectures that it's the Wandering Jew, which seems a bit of a stretch based on all of the other legends. So we arrive at:

Pluses:

1. Very major literary work.
2. Wandering Jew is mentioned by name.
3. Character in the novel is described as TWJ by another character in the novel.

Minuses:

1. Passage is very short (only 3 pages).
2. The creature in question seems much more like the Chupacabra than TWJ.
3. The author himself doesn't seem to think of the creature as TWJ.

Thoughts? - Richfife 17:21, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

It's probably worth keeping. Do you know the page numbers? Brutannica 00:13, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

More details!

The big problem with this whole page is not enough detail. We get that the Wandering Jew is a pervasive feature in Western literature. But what does he do? What role does he play in the stories? Is he penitent, or defiant? Does he interact with characters? Does he have any identifying characteristics besides great age? The character isn't characterized at all in this article. Brutannica 00:13, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

My take on this (arrived at over the last couple of months) is that the Wandering Jew ISN'T as pervasive a presence in western literature as people seem to think. The idea of an immortal (or very long lived) character that lives among normal people and interacts with "the man on the street" is an effective way for an author to add heft to a story and link it up to the full canon of western literature. So streetwise immortal characters keep popping up. To my mind, the Wandering Jew is merely an example of this (I'd be amazed if he's the first). For some reason people often take the next step and declare any immortal character to actually BE the Wandering Jew. If the Flying Dutchman wasn't stuck on his boat, maybe he'd be used instead. Since authors and readers have so often declared any immortal character the Wandering Jew (He's a plutocrat! He's a homeless guy! He flies spaceships! He's a woman! He's an alien! He's a goat!), the legend has become diluted to the point that the only constant feature is his or her immortality. - Richfife 17:19, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but in works where the Wandering Jew is unambiguously featured, what does he do? Or does he have no trademark personality? If this is the case, then the article should state it.

At the least, is he good or evil? If this developed in the Middle Ages and he jeered at Jesus during his torments, then I would expect the Jew to be unrepentant, malicious, and maybe offensive to Christians. Or has he repented, maybe converted, etc.? Brutannica 07:37, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

There are a series of novels about a roman soldier simlarly cursed with immortality by Jesus. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casca_Longinus

Casca: the Eternal Mercenary

How about adding this to the lit section?

Barry Sadler's Casca: the Eternal Mercenary series of novels features Casca Rufio Longinius, cursed by Jesus for spearing him to soldier until they meet again. This seems to be an intentional blending of the legends of Longinus and the Wandering Jew.

(That's straight from the Longinus wiki, BTW.) Osakadave 08:29, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to take a stand and declare myself neutral. That's just the kind of guy I am. - Richfife 23:18, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Christian legend or Jewish Legend?

I noticed someone put the "jew" template into the article. I've always considered TWJ more of a christian thing than a jewish thing (despite the name). What do you think? - Richfife 23:15, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

The "jew" template just indicates material was taken from the Jewish Encyclopedia, it doesn't imply this is a Jewish legend.--Cúchullain ^t/c 23:42, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Overburdened with Evil by Strugackie

I just added this reference. The novel is not about the Wandering Jew in and of itself, but one of the main characters is named "Agasfer", the origins of this name are explained, and the likeliness is used, albeit in a somewhat subtle way. If this level of reference is below that deserving a mention, feel free to remove this reference, although ideally not before at least getting a cursory look at the novel itself.

J.G. Ballard's The Lost Leonardo

How is this "unrelated"? Ahasuerus is featured in the story. Sdicht 01:17, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

• Perhaps a better term would be "Too many steps removed". Practically all authors reference TWJ if they stick around long enough. - Richfife 14:46, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Are you saying just because the guy is a contemporary writer? So what is the point of this section, anyway? Sdicht 14:46, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

• I need to cut the section way back. And more hours in the day. Stand by. - Richfife 15:14, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Fictional references - perhaps they should be broken out into their own article?

I would suggest that we split the fictional references off into a separate article called The Wandering Jew motif in fiction. Then we can pick just a few of the most notable ones to leave in this article and and add a link to the longer article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lisapollison (talk • contribs) 05:51, 30 April 2007 (UTC).

Clearly this section now needs to be split off on its own. Does anyone care to suggest which references should also stay in this article?LiPollis 02:00, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Again, given the mention below of the comic book, I humbly suggest that we break out the fictional references into their own article named The Wandering Jew Motif in Literature. Anyone for it? We can leave a couple of the best examples with a note to see the larger article.LiPollis (talk) 12:48, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Wandering Jew plant

Isn't there a plant named the wandering jew? 72.92.20.134 20:48, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

There is, it can be found on the disambiguation page linked at the top of the article.Cúchullain ^t/c 05:40, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

another science fiction case

Another science fiction book that mentions the legend is Poul Anderson's BOAT OF A THOUSAND YEARS, about a mutation that renders various people in history immortal. When one, Hanno the Phoenician, tells his story to Cardinal Richelieu, the Cardinal asks "Are you the Wandering Jew?". Hanno admits that he might have inspired the legend but denies the story of meeting Jesus. CharlesTheBold 04:38, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Poor Organization of Article.

This article is badly in need of a cleanup and reorganization. It begins with the origin of the legend not its content, as if any reader already would know what it was. I am not a literary scholar, and I had no idea. It took till about half way through before I figured out that it was about a person condemned to eternal life for (it seems) doing something rude to Jesus on his way to be crucified. The article needs to start with the content of the legend including one or two major variants. Then it can get into the origin and history and then go on to its uses in various other works, any relations it might have with other legends, differing interpretations, and controversies surrounding it... something like that order. Come on you literary scholars, represent! mnewmanqc (talk) 01:59, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

There used to be a perfectly good intro, but the article has seen a lot of editing over the past day or so. I've restored it to the last stable version, but I'm afraid some good edits were probably lost. The talk page is the place to discuss such major changes to the article.--Cúchullain ^t/c 05:52, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

now reorganised by me following discussion with Cúchullain to deal with these problems. --Smerus (talk) 20:03, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I was mistaken about the recent edits; it seems that the removal of the intro was a simple accident, and no new unsourced material was added. My apologies, and good work, Smerus!--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:07, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Poor Bible Usage

In this day and age the usage of the Old King James version of the bible makes little sense. The Old English is unneccesarily hard to understand, and the version contains notable transcription errors. While the New King James Version rectifies these faults, I believe that the Revised Standard Version (RSV) of the Holy Bible should be used, as it is reputed to be the most accurate translation.

The KJV, which ever version you look at, is never Old English. It is modern English, perhaps Shakespearean at its most antiquated moments. It is our current language, not Chaucer's (Middle English), not Beowulf's (Old English). Moreover, and more importantly, it is crucial to look at the KJV in order to understand the evolution of the Wandering Jew legend in the English tradition because after the publication of the KJV, it is what all English language writers use as a source. That is, until recently. Translation mistakes do not really matter; only those who based their writings directly on the Hebrew and the Greek, etc., could be an exception to this. -FM (talk) 02:03, 23 April 2008 (UTC)FM

You're forgetting that ancient bookbinders got bored and added their own adlibs and complaints and whining into the KJV so no one really knows what the KJV really is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.113.49.126 (talk) 09:19, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

the phantom stranger

I just read a comic book by DC Comics called Secret Origins volume 2 #10. It had 4 versions of the Phantom Stranger's origin. In it on page 6, he admits he is the wandering jew. I was about to add this to the article, but noticed the comment by richfife. What are people's opinions on putting it into the article? I can use a proper citation format.--Rockfang (talk) 03:29, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Please don't! Unless the Wandering Jew is a central part of the action/a key player/a vital element in the plot of a book/comic/film/whatever, passing references to him shouldn't go in this article. Otherwose it will become an endless list of trivia. If you have some desperate urge, create a List of passing references to the Wandering Jew - but don't expect me to support it when someone puts it up for delete!--Smerus (talk) 09:59, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

This isn't a "passing reference". It takes up a quarter of a comic book and is mentioned in other comic books as noted in a section above.--Rockfang (talk) 13:49, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I see that the article on Phantom Stranger does indeed mention that one story of his origin is a 'variant of the Wandering Jew legend'. This not quite the sames as him 'admitting he is the Wandering Jew' - but I concede that it would just about justify a mention in the article with citation.--Smerus (talk) 15:05, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. The article on the Phantom Stranger needs to be fixed. In the comic book (page 6) he's talking to a priest and the priest says: "...but how dare you enter this house of God and tell me you're The Wandering Jew?". The Stranger replies: "It is the truth Father Knox."--Rockfang (talk) 15:40, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Cain in the Land of Nod

I just wanted to note that I removed the reference to Cain being told to dwell in the Land of Nod (the author of which wrote that this means "wandering") as that is incorrect. Cain was told to be a wanderer, not to dwell anywhere. The fact that he dwells in a land called Nod is an example of irony. Much like being told to be a "Wanderer", in English, and so settling in a place called "Wander". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aniboker (talk • contribs) 09:14, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually "Land of Nod" means nowhere. So he is ordered to settle "no where" aka wander. Not ironic, just poetic. The Old Testament is an Epic Poem, kind of like Beowulf. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.113.49.126 (talk) 09:17, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Pronunciation "Ahasver"

Does anybody know, how to pronunciate "Ahasver" correctly?Kommitanz (talk) 08:14, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Hans Christian Andersen was a Dane

Why is he listed under Germany?

Wandering Jew as Enoch

I read that the Wandering Jew was actually Enoch. It would be great if someone should explore the Enoch hypothesis. ADM (talk)

If anyone's ever read Neil Stephenson's works, the eternal Jew is Enoch Root, who always appears to be age 50. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.113.49.126 (talk) 09:15, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Wandering Jew in A Darkness At Sethanon?

Starting at page 325, the character Macros the Black begins a description of his history. During the description he talks about his father, a poor merchant who was invited to the execution of a man who is described as having "the ability of spellbinding oratory and an irritating habit of making people think." During the execution, Macros the Black's father participated in mocking the man during his march to death. The condemned man is described as having cursed Macros the Black's father, and the curse leaves Macros the Black's father immortal. Macros the Black's father eventually begins to long for death, and begins wandering the universe looking for a way to remove the curse. While Macros the Black's father is not explicitly named as the wandering Jew, nor the condemned man named Jesus, the two are obviously quite similar. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.234.144.209 (talk) 21:46, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Possible Addition

Alan Moore (1997), Wildstorm Spotlight featuring Majestic #1, Wildstorm

Features a typical wandering Jew character, dressed in dinner clothes as if he's straight out of a Bar Mitzvah. This character is one of the few entities left at the end of the universe. He decides to finally just wait it out in a crystal garden. Lots42 (talk) 16:40, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Nathan Brazil

In Jack Chalker's Well World series, I am pretty sure that the immortal known as Nathan Brazil is directly reffered to as the Wandering Jew. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.167.224 (talk) 19:30, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Kierkegaard's Wandering Jew

There's a sector of the Wandering Jew topic that mentions Soren Kierkegaard as discussing him. I decided to expand Kierkegaard's involvement in the definition of the Wandering Jew considering that Kierkegaard has been named a literary genius on the subjects of Christianity - or rather - Christendom as Kierkegaard has termed the religious practice. Someone immediately edited out my expansion of Kierkegaard's understanding of the Wandering Jew that he elaborates on in Either/Or. Why did this person edit out my contribution? The material I inserted was on subject, thought-provoking, philosophical, and explanatory as to exactly who or what kind of person the Wandering Jew is. This is what I added:

The Wandering Jew is mentioned again during the fifth "chapter" of Either/Or. Kierkegaard asserts: "Yes, if there were a human being who could not die, if the story of the eternally wandering Jew were true, how could we scruple to call him the unhappiest? We could then also explain why the grave was empty, to indicate that the unhappiest person was the one who could not die, could not slip down into a grave. The matter would then be decided, the answer easy; for the unhappiest would be the one who could not die, the happy man the one who could; happy the one who died in his old age, happier the one who died at birth, happiest of all the one who was never born. But that is not how it is; death is the common fortune of all men, and therefore in so far as the unhappiest has not yet been found, it is within these confines he must be sought."

I also added a book citation to the paragraph because of its inclusion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eusebio42 (talk • contribs) 21:01, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

What about the one Jesus said would never die?

I understood the Wandering Jew myth to be based on a quotation of Jesus which was misinterpreted as that one of the apostles wouldn't die until the second coming. He ages constantly, but reverts to age 30 when he reaches 130. That's how I was taught it (in fact, I think that's what this page used to say). That's how it turns up in "Raiders Of the Lost Arc" too, incidentally.199.212.11.90 (talk) 03:00, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Grammar: Till vs 'til & Until

Until is what's meant, abbreviated it would be 'til. A "Till" is the part of the cash register where the money is kept. OR "To Till" is to plow a field. I'm leaving it to someone else to correct the grammar, just because some wikipedians get touchy if I do it for them. Bad Grammar confuses non-English speakers. Americans, Canadians, English & the Commonwealth probably can do the conversion in their heads, because they use the word everyday, but non-English speakers will have trouble.

List of Countries

There is an inconsistency in the list of countries/languages in the article. 'English' is given as a language (because it includes the USA) but 'France' and 'Russia' are given as countries. Wouldn't it be better to have them be consistently all language names rather than country names? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.101.140 (talk) 09:10, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Last known sighting

Being from Salt Lake City, I was intrigued that the last known sighting of the Wandering Jew was in my hometown, according to Wikipedia. I looked up the source (1911 Encyclopedia Britannica) and at other online sources and found that the original source of this factoid was September 23, 1868 edition of The Deseret News. I have access to their pre-1910 editions online and looked up the original article. To my dismay, I found that the article states that the sighting happened in Harts Corner, New York. I have corrected it here and added a citation to the article.--Cassmus (talk) 07:05, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

What's wrong with this edit?

@Smerus - you reverted this edit made by an anon IP. I don't quite understand what was wrong with the anon IP's edit. Can you please explain? --Pseudo-Richard (talk) 05:53, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

The article is not a list of references to books/comics/ etc. where a character may have been based on, or has some parallels with, the WJ. The article is about the WJ, and literary etc. references to him are illustrative and secondary. If we allowed all such edits the article would be five times its existing length at least and be utterly unwieldy (see previous reverted edits). To be encyclopaedic we should try to keep to significant and/or well-known instances where the WJ is specifically represented. If somebody wants to set up a List of references to the Wandering Jew in fiction let them do so by all means.

My edit depends of course on an interpretation of WP:UNDUE, but we also need to bear in mind WP:SOFIXIT. In fact a number of the existing references in the article should also be weeded out on that basis and I will do this when I can get round to it. Best, --Smerus (talk) 15:33, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

"Christian folklore"

This links to Christian mythology. Is there sufficient reason for use of the term "folklore" here? Please advise. 15:58, 22 September 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Qexigator (talk • contribs)

...and "legend" not "folklore" is the term used in the linked article and in the article Ahasuerus. --Qexigator (talk) 16:45, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Need the term Christian "folklore" be retained any longer? Qexigator (talk) 22:38, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

• Qexigator proposes to remove mention of Christian "folklore" in view of following:

Webster's Online Dictionary, Extended Definition: wandering jew: "The Wandering Jew is a character from Christian folklore." [3]

...blank result for search "Christian folklore" in Webster's Online Dictionary.

...result of search for "folklore" here [4] --Qexigator (talk) 09:32, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Baring-Gould

Revision 12:56, 22 September 2012: revision 513994077 by Qexigator irrelevant to this article, quote belongs if anywhere in article on Dore. This is what Smerus has removed:

• The first chapter of Curious Myths of the Middle Ages (in which Sabine Baring-Gould attributed the earliest extant mention of the myth of the Wandering Jew to Matthew Paris), begins:

Who that has looked on Gustave Doré's marvellous illustrations to this wild legend can forget the impression they made upon his imagination? <ref....http://archive.org/stream/curiousmythsofmi00bariuoft/curiousmythsofmi00bariuoft_djvu.txt....ref>

Yes, it may be suited to the Dore article as proposed, but (while acknowledging that Smerus has been a multiple contributor to this article) the quotation also has a place here. Perhaps it has gone unnoticed that the quotation could well serve as a caption to the Dore image beside it, and the title of the quoted work sets off the opening mention of "Christian folklore", possibly a misnomer and which actually links to "Christian mythology". The quotation complements the article as a whole by indicating how the "myth" was regarded at the time by widely read writers such as Baring-Gould and is apt for use in a lead for the sections which enlarge in more detail. Further, the opening line of the article reads "The Wandering Jew is a figure from medieval Christian folklore..." and Baring-Gould was of the Christian tradition who, as a clergyman of the Church of England, was able in his day to distinguish between the mythic and the folkloric. He is described as an antiquarian and eclectic scholar, and the work quoted was first published in the 1860s and republished in many other editions since then. Qexigator (talk) 16:20, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't actually think my contributions to the article give me any special status, but:

• The quote is more about extolling Dore than it is about the WJ
• In fact it doesn't tell us anything about the WJ at all
• It certainly doesn't therefore merit a place in the lead
• It is indeed relevant to the Dore print in an article on Dore but in an article on the WJ is is WP:UNDUE.

If you want to cite Baring-Gould as a noted authority on the WJ, then according to Wikipedia standards that estimation of him should be sourced and then placed in an appropriate position in the article. The header is supposed to sum up the article, not make points which cannot be found in it.

If we don't keep to Wikipedia standards then the article just becomes a dumping-ground for any old reference to the WJ.

Best, --Smerus (talk) 21:49, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

--Yes, Smerus, agreed about avoiding dumping and maintaining worthwhile standards. Baring-Gould's standing as noted authority on WS was referenced. Reasons for mentioning in this article given above. But perhaps reference to Dore better made another way. Qexigator (talk) 16:48, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Is this attribution to Doré authentic?

The image described below is notorious as Nazi propaganda. Is it confirmed as by Doré, as stated in this paragraph of the article?

• "In 1852, Gustave Doré made a woodcut entitled "The Wandering Jew" that depicted the legendary figure with "a red cross on his forehead, spindly legs and arms, huge nose and blowing hair, and staff in hand". Whereas previous images of The Wandering Jew had afforded him some dignity, Doré's pejorative depiction was co-opted by anti-Semites and the exaggerated caricature was adapted by artists in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries." Qexigator (talk) 22:06, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Qexigator has taken the source cited as reliable information for revision at 13:40, 2 October 2012. Qexigator (talk) 13:53, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

1899 not 1900

The year for the inset image of Hirszenberg's Wandering Jew should be changed from 1900to 1899. How to is not known to...Qexigator (talk) 15:49, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Changed. If disputed, please comment. RashersTierney (talk) 23:08, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Hirszenberg

The place for a detailed critique of Hirszenberg's 'Wandering Jew' is in the article on Hirszenberg, not here, where it si WP:UNDUE. Otherwise the article could be quickly overloaded with art essays.--Smerus (talk) 13:46, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

The section is headed "Modern era" with the subsection "Eighteenth and nineteenth centuries". The the passage which Smerus has cut is more than relevant to the place of the legend and its variations in the modern era-

• -given the opening of the subsection, which is:

"By the beginning of the eighteenth century, the figure of the "Wandering Jew" as an apocryphal legendary individual began to be identified with the fate of the Jewish people as a whole. The "Eternal Jew" became an increasingly "symbolic... and universal character" as the struggle for Jewish emancipation gave rise to what came to be referred to as "The Jewish Question"."

• -and the next paragraph which describes the caricature of the 1850's and its later use in anti-semitic propaganda.
• -and seeing that Hirszenberg's painting of 1899 is a significant work in point of historical narrative about the "Jewish Question", leading from the 19c. pogroms to the Zionist movement, through the Nazi era and on to the present day in connection with the cultural background of Jewish Holocaust studies.

For that to be more explicit, Qexigator has rewritten the paragraph. Qexigator (talk) 18:40, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

artworks listwise

In this context the timeline of the 19c. artworks is more notable than the artists (though each of them is notable in his own right), so the year is moved to begin the entry for each. Qexigator (talk) 15:55, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

...and further clarifying dates for Kaulbach's painting (Munich) and mural (Berlin), briefly indicating political-cultural ambitions and rivalries affecting or relating to the Jewish question in 19c. Europe detailed in refs cited in Notes.Qexigator (talk) 12:20, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Copyedit: Section proposed for "In ideology (19c. and after)"

Comment invited, before proceeding. Further to Smerus's copyedit creating new secton "In art", Qexigator proposes similar for "In ideology (19c. and after)" and moving there certain passages copied below (with minor contextualising rewrite).

• Origin and evolution, Medieval legend:

By the beginning of the eighteenth century, the figure of the "Wandering Jew" as an apocryphal legendary individual [had begun] to be identified with the fate of the Jewish people as a whole. The "Eternal Jew" became an increasingly "symbolic... and universal character" as the struggle for Jewish emancipation gave rise to what came to be referred to as "the Jewish Question".[18] In 1842 this was discussed in an article by Bruno Bauer which was republished in 1843 with additions as a book with The Jewish Question for its title,[19] to which Karl Marx responded by an article with the title On the Jewish Question.[20]

• In art,

--Nineteenth century:

Depicting the legendary figure with "a red cross on his forehead, spindly legs and arms, huge nose and blowing hair, and staff in hand", it was to be co-opted by anti-Semites,[43] such that it was later shown at the Nazi exhibition Der Ewige Jude in Germany and Austria in 1937–1938 and, in 2007, a reproduction of it was exhibited at Yad Vashem.[16]

In connection with the "Jewish Question" Hirszenberg's painting of 1899 leads from the 19c. Pogroms[47] and the First Zionist Congress held at Basel in 1897, through the Nazi era and on to the the cultural background of the Jewish Holocaust and Jewish studies in present day Israel.[48]

--Twentieth century:

From November 8, 1937 to January 31, 1938, the Library of the German Museum in Munich held an art exhibition titled The Eternal Jew, showing works that the Nazis considered to be 'degenerate art'. A book containing images of these works was published under the title The Eternal Jew.[50] Although this was the most famous Nazi-sponsored exhibition of 'Degenerate Art', it was preceded by a number of other exhibitions in cities such as Mannheim, Karlsruhe, Dresden, Munich, Berlin and Vienna. The works of art displayed at these exhibitions were generally executed by avant-garde artists who had become recognized and esteemed in the 1920s. However, the objective of these exhibitions was not to present the works as worthy of admiration but to deride and condemn them.[51]

Of the proposed title "In ideology (19c. and after)"-

• For "ideology" see Ideology

--"... the term "ideology" has dropped some of its pejorative sting, and has become a neutral term in the analysis of differing political opinions and views of social groups.[4] While Karl Marx situated the term within class struggle and domination,[5][6] others believed it was a necessary part of institutional functioning and social integration."

--"...a Political Ideology is a certain ethical set of ideals, principles, doctrines, myths, or symbols of a social movement, institution, class, or large group that explains how society should work, and offers some political and cultural blueprint for a certain social order. A political ideology largely concerns itself with how to allocate power and to what ends it should be used. Some parties follow a certain ideology very closely, while others may take broad inspiration from a group of related ideologies without specifically embracing any one of them."

• Ideology before 19c. would be anachronistic. Qexigator (talk) 09:16, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Melmoth?

It is proposed to remove the reference to the novel Melmoth. No source is cited for inclusion, and the only one found was in some notes sourced to "University of Adelaide on Melmoth" [5]: Background in German literature....-- Melmoth's character as like the Wandering Jew of German literature, more central than incidental appearance of this character in The Monk. If anything that amounts to a contraindication, as do other sources, which compare Melmoth with other works of the "wanderer" genre, including Faust and Don Quixote, but not with the WJ. And the novel has many episodes where Melmoth himself or others have encounters with Jews. One review mentions that Melmoth "was regarded by Balzac as one of the great outcasts of modern literature. Intended partly as an attack on Roman Catholicism..." [6] --Qexigator (talk) 15:22, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Child's Ballads

There is no link for the in text ref./citation "1st ed., viii. 77" attached to "reprinted in Francis James Child's English and Scotch Ballads. At the websearch result [7] "Child, Francis James, 1825-1896. Francis James Child English and Scottish popular ballad research materials, 1849-1914: Guide. Houghton Library, Harvard College Library", a search for "jew" is a contraindication, resulting only in "Sir Hugh, or the Jew's Daughter". "Scotch" was not part of the work's title, which was English and Scottish Popular Ballads (Child Ballads, List of the Child Ballads and Francis James Child). --Qexigator (talk) 08:40, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Early Christianity

As early as the time of Tertullian, some homilists were likening the Jewish people to a "new Cain"...

Tertullian is generally known as an apologist not homilist. The citation gave a page number but not the volume no. of Baron's 18 volume work. Today's (partial) cleanup for this (assuming, not confirming, that one of the volumes of Baron's work is relevant to the revised text) is by Qexigator (talk) 12:42, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Suggestion to add settings for an archive bot to work

{{User:MiszaBot/config
|archiveheader = {{aan}}
|maxarchivesize = 200K
|counter = 1
|minthreadsleft = 10
|minthreadstoarchive = 1
|algo = old(90d)
|archive = Talk:Wandering Jew/Archive  %(counter)d
}}

This might clear out dead discussions and improve accessibility.

Wikipedia provides some reasonably clear Talk page guidelines. One of the sections within the guidelines concerns: When to condense pages. It says: "It is recommended to archive or refactor a page either when it exceeds 75 KB, or has more than 10 main sections". At the point of this edit the page contained a no where near excessive 51.9 KB Gregkaye (talk) 14:00, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

"In ideology (19c. and after)

Why has sourced and relevant information headed "In ideology (19c. and after)" been removed?[8] --Qexigator (talk) 15:29, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

"In other media"

A story The_Storyteller#The_Soldier_and_Death (apparently inspired from a mix of Grimm lore and a Russian folk tale), also has a wondering man who is neither admitted in heaven nor hell and is also feared by (personified) death, and this reminded me of the legend of the Wandering Jew. I'm not sure if others have made any link, though. 76.10.128.192 (talk) 01:47, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Interesting, but Godfather Death is a different sort of tale, and there is nothing to suggest any connection with the legend of the Wandering Jew. Qexigator (talk) 08:15, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

I think that you're right. The ending of the story however varies where he ends up an eternal wanderer, which may or may not have been inspired by this story, but we'd still need a source if so. Thanks. 76.10.128.192 (talk) 00:01, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

There's no section for books. I feel like "A Canticle for Leibowitz" is relevant. Drsruli (talk) 18:36, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

"In Television"

In Fargo (season 3) The Law of Non-Contradiction a new character Paul Marrane is introduced. Paul Marrne reappears in Fargo (season 3) episode eight and quotes Obadiah in Hebrew. Sieben von neun (talk) 02:51, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

Antisemitism template?

The article has the Antisemitism template at the top but doesn't feature in it. I'm not sure what it would fall under either (maybe canard?). The page only mentions antisemitism twice, and both refer to antisemites using the legend in their own works rather than someone finding antisemitic themes in the legend itself. Prinsgezinde (talk) 13:50, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Sometimes templates are thrown around gratuitously. That seems to be the case with this article. Why not remove the antisemitism template? If there is actually a "canard" template, it could be substituted.--Quisqualis (talk) 16:47, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Prinsgezinde, agreed the template is unsuited to the article, which has not in fact been edited as "one of a series", and does not form one of a series. The template was added on 8 February 2017,[9] anonymously by a single purpose contributor.[10]. The template does not improve the article or represent the article's content, and it should be removed. Qexigator (talk) 17:28, 6 November 2017 (UTC) Now done.[11] 07:44, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

+ The articles in the "See also" section are more like a connected group or "series":

• Prester John, a similar legend
• Spiderwort
• Hob Gadling
• Global nomad
• Red Jews, another Medieval legend about Jews.

And the article's Category box suffices to cover this and other more significant points:

Categories: Curses /Antisemitism /Christian folklore /Immortality /Medieval legends /Medieval Jews /Fictional Jews /Literary archetypes by name /Mythological characters /Wandering Jew /European folklore /Ahasuerus.

Qexigator (talk) 17:46, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

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The Wandering Jew's name in the Letters Writ by a Turkish Spy

Like many I became curious about the legend of the Wandering Jew having watched season 3 of Fargo where a character named Paul Marrane represents the idea of providential justice. Now, the article cites the Letters Writ By a Turkish Spy (more precisely Letter I of Book III written in 1644) as evidence of 'Paul Marrane' being one of the names attributed to the Wandering Jew. So I found Vol.2 Book 3 Letter 1 which does speak at length about the Wandering Jew, but the only name mentioned for him is that of 'Michob Ader'. 'Paul Marrane' seems to appear nowhere. (check it for yourself: https://archive.org/details/letterswrittenb02midggoog/page/n201/mode/2up?q=Wandering+Jew p.176 of the book/p.202 of the pdf)

Perhaps I missed something but I could not find any other reference to Paul Marrane as either the name or an alias of the Wandering Jew. The Encyclopedia Brittanica article doesn't mention Marrane at all: it cites 'Cartaphilus', 'Joseph', 'Giovanni Buttadeo' as the Wandering Jew's various aliases. (https://www.britannica.com/topic/wandering-Jew)

The WP article's mention of Paul Marrane predates Fargo's 3d season so this mistake can't be impugned onto the TV show. The odd thing is that the alleged author of the Letters Writ By a Turkish Spy is Giovanni Paulo Marana, who's spent time at the French court of Louis XIV, and whose name is way too similar to Paul Marrane to be a simple coincidence. (Yet, afaik he never identifies as, nor compares himself to the Wandering Jew, so I wonder why he'd attribute that name to him? That makes no sense.) Could someone shed light on this issue? Did I not read the Letters carefully enough and missed something? I'd be tempted to just remove the mentions of Marrane as unjustified (as I can't find any original sources to justify that connection), but that might confuse the folks brought here by Fargo. Thoughts?? Ignostic199 (talk) 12:43, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

For anyone reading this and being curious, I came across an academic piece explaining that it is indeed a mistake and Paul Marrane is not in fact the Wandering Jew's name. So I corrected the article. Ignostic199 (talk) 13:26, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Caroline Sheridan Norton's poem 'The Undying One'

It's based on the story of the Wandering Jew - I think it deserves a mention as it was praised at the time, although she's now more well known as a political campaigner for women's rights. 188.29.134.80 (talk) 16:38, 1 August 2022 (UTC)