Talk:War on Women

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Re: Democrats[edit]

@Dontreader: I've had to revert your addition to the lede. While the sources you added do note that the term is used by some Democrats, per your wording, our other sources show that it's also used by some Republicans and some people who are not publicly partisan. I think it's probably better to leave the lede as it was, where we note in the second sentence that it's prominently used by Democrats, but without implying that no one else uses it. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 20:12, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

@Roscelese:. You should not have reverted an edit with three very reliable sources to back it up. Besides, my Bloomberg reference mentions "women's rights activists" opposed to this alleged instance of "war on women". The women's groups that are mentioned in that article are the National Organization for Women, Moms Rising, and the National Women's Law Center. Let's suppose that they are not "publicly partisan". In that case, you could have added "women's rights groups", or "women's rights activists" to "some Democrats". Read WP:ONLYREVERT. What would be wrong with that solution? Also, since you claim that some Republicans use that term, please cite a source right here on the talk page in which a Republican uses the expression "war on women" in a manner that validates it, agreeing that it's real, instead of just to say that it's a Democratic lie used for political purposes. Otherwise, it's dishonest to say that Republicans use that term. Finally, my Washington Post source reads:
A Republican "war on women" has returned, Democratic senators and women's groups proclaimed Wednesday
So again, you could have inserted "women's groups" (or "women's rights activists") since this is backed by the sources I provided. That's much more constructive than reverting, which in this case is hostile behavior, unless you can back up your claim that some Republicans agree that there's a war on women. If they merely say that there's no war on women, then you are being dishonest. If you cannot back up your claim, choose which term you prefer to add to "some Democrats": "women's groups" or "women's rights activists". Dontreader (talk) 21:16, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
"unless you can back up your claim that some Republicans agree that there's a war on women" - The very first sentence of this article cites Lisa Murkowski's criticism of her colleagues' policies as an "attack on women." Citations elsewhere in the article back up the usage of the phrase by people with no verifiable party affiliation are cited. That said, I've done my own search for sources and you're right that the sources usually attribute this to Democratic politicians (I think I was reflexively reacting to a slightly different quibble people have had in the past). If you don't think the current version, where Democrats' and feminists' use of the term is described in the second sentence, is sufficient, I would suggest "[often/largely/primarily] by Democrats", rather than "by some Democrats"; "some" doesn't add anything of use. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 22:02, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, Roscelese. As you know, although Lisa Murkowski has some opinions that conflict with mainstream Republican views, she did not say "war on women". "Attack on women" is strong and similar, but not quite a "war". Do you have examples of Republicans saying that there is a "war on women", or is Lisa Murkowski the closest you could find? I would have agreed to what you have suggested, but I have been reverted again, by a reactionary user who didn't have the courtesy to come to the talk page.
Look, MrX, I could not care less how experienced you are as a Wikipedian. It doesn't make you automatically right, and you are not above the law, including civility guidelines. I provided solid sources. I made an edit that was intended to reach consensus after Roscelese reverted me. Your behavior is utterly reactionary. Quoting you from your edit description: "The term is also used by the media and some republicans." Some Republicans? Please name some, with reliable sources, in which they agree that there's a "war on women". You made that claim, so please back it up. And hard news programs in the media will obviously mention the term because they must report what the news makers are saying, such as politicians. Opinion shows in the media do not count, or do they? Rachel Maddow and others like her probably claim that there is a "war on women" on their shows and wherever they are invited to speak, but as I said, those are opinion shows, where a bias is understood to exist. So can you really sustain that "the term is also used by the media and some republicans."? Do you really have enough to justify that reversion? Dontreader (talk) 22:53, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
I'm sorry but how was I not civil and when did I claim that my experience makes me automatically right? My edit summary said "This is not accurate. The term is also used by the media and some republicans." My objection is to narrowly attributing the use of the phrase to Democrats and women's rights activists. It misleads by omitting the various op ed columnists, bloggers, news commentators, and members of other political parties who have used the term. (Yes, they do count). Here is Jeb Bush, a Republican, using the term.[1]- MrX 23:37, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
MrX, you really should know that the media (plural of medium) do not claim that there is a war on women. They simply report what is being said by others. Such claims are only made on opinion shows with a heavy political bias, not hard news programs. Dontreader (talk) 23:02, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
Let's not confuse the issue. We're not talking about "Claim that there is a war on women", we're talking about "use of the term to describe...".- MrX 23:40, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
Considering that my fully-sourced edit had already been reverted, and then I rewrote my edit in a manner intended to reach a compromise with the person who reverted me after seeing that person's points on the talk page, and taking into account that my edit summary reads, "Added 'women's rights activists', per sources, not stating that they are Democrats. That addresses the problem. See talk page. No need for drastic reverts.", your reversion was most definitely uncivil. You failed to have the courtesy to visit the talk page, and you reverted my edit despite my request for no reverts. You should have tried to work out a consensus here first. That would have been civil behavior.
Let's be honest. The FIRST sentence in the lead section of the article should say who uses the expression "war on women". Otherwise, there's blatant bias because an attempt is clearly being made to give the impression that the "war on women" is real. And let's not kid ourselves. The "various op ed columnists, bloggers, news commentators, and members of other political parties who have used the term" are all American liberals, and they vote for Democrats, even if in some cases it's just to keep Republicans out of power. You say members of other political parties have used the term, not just Democrats? Please, which political parties are you talking about? And does even 2% of the population identify with them?
Jeb Bush used the term only because he's afraid that the Democrats will use it. You know very well that if Democrats stop talking about the alleged "war on women", Republicans will stop mentioning the term, too. You have resorted to flawed logic. If I tell an atheist that God exists, and he reacts, saying that I'm a fool for believing that God exists, that doesn't mean that he believes in God just because he mentioned "God" in a sentence. Actually, the second sentence in the lead section gives a much better idea of who uses the "war on Women" expression. But I insist that the first sentence in the lead section must define who uses that expression, or else we've got massive POV here. It doesn't require too much creativity to reach a balanced compromise. Dontreader (talk) 00:40, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I don't find your arguments especially convincing. don't agree that the first sentence is blatantly biased. I'm not inclined to get involved in a complicated debate and I've made my last revert on this content for now. I suggest you review the talk page archive and try to establish consensus for your proposed edit. Good luck. - MrX 01:25, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
MrX, the Bush link you provided is him speculating about opponents' reactions to such policies, so I'm not really sure that counts as a Republican using it per se. On the other hand, Dontreader, Lisa Murkowski is literally a prominent Republican senator, so I'm not sure what you're getting at with this "closest you could find". Hence my suggestion of "[often/largely/primarily] by Democrats". The voting patterns of people who aren't in political work are also not what's implied when you say "by Democrats". –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 03:40, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Roscelese, I guess I did not express myself correctly. Lisa Murkowski is indeed a very prominent Republican. What I was saying was that although she came close to saying that there's a war on women, she didn't quite take it to that extreme, stating instead that there was an "attack" on women. So I was asking you if that was the best you could do, or if you could find a notable Republican who actually has said that there is a "war on women". And I would certainly agree to use "primarily" by Democrats. I would also include "women's rights groups" (or an equivalent term) because that's also in the sources I provided. At least you brought the issue to the talk page after reverting me. I find it unacceptably biased, uncivil, cowardly and reactionary to have been reverted a second time without first attempting to reach an agreement here (which we were close to accomplishing). It's one of those cases in which an editor knows that he or she is in a majority group of the page watchers and calculates that I will run out of reverts before they do, instead of discussing the matter honestly on the talk page. Very cowardly, and such behavior discourages people from editing. The Jeb Bush example is pure fantasy coming from a militantly biased mind. Very much like the fact that only a partisan lunatic could have hoped that this article could achieve GA status. The only way to achieve GA status is to listen to other points of view and make the article much more neutral, instead of panicking and reverting, and showing no interest in discussing the issues (I'm not talking about you).
I still believe that the first sentence in the lead section should define who uses the expression "war on women". The first sentence is key. As you said, the second sentence does shed light in that sense, but it does not exclude other possibilities at all. Without defining who uses the term (and I provided very good sources to indicate that it's Democrats, or primarily Democrats, and women's rights groups), the reader assumes after reading the first sentence that the war on women is a fact, and that's false. Even Bill Maher says there's no war on women in the US [2]. And if there's a war on women, why do most white married women vote Republican? [3]. Do many women in the US believe there's a war on women? Yes, but that doesn't make it a fact, yet the first line in the lead section implies it's a fact. That's just wrong. If my three sources aren't enough to cover who uses that term, notice that the Bill Maher article says "Liberals". It's just a matter of shedding fanatical bias and having the will to improve the article, which I think you have. Articles that might be worth reading to reword the first sentence are Modern liberalism in the United States and at least the lead section of Democratic Party (United States), which reads, "The party's philosophy of modern American liberalism advocates social and economic equality, along with the welfare state." Notice that "modern American liberalism" links to the other Wikipedia article. At least I'm making a sincere effort here, as you can see, to improve this article. But I did not understand your last sentence about voting patterns. Could you please rephrase it? Thanks for your reply. Dontreader (talk) 07:50, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
You're being incredibly uncivil, and you need to chill out with the attacks on others. While you're looking at policy and guideline pages, also check out WP:BRD: "I find it unacceptably biased, uncivil, cowardly and reactionary to have been reverted a second time without first attempting to reach an agreement here" indicates that you don't have an understanding of this normal process. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 14:39, 7 August 2015 (UTC)


Shouldn't the first sentence in the lead section establish who uses the term "war on women" so that it won't be perceived as a fact? Dontreader (talk) 08:22, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

An RFC question needs to be phrased neutrally, Dontreader. Begging the question like this is just a recipe for any result that develops being reasonably contested as invalid. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 14:39, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
If so, please feel free to phrase the question differently. I'm open to suggestions. Dontreader (talk) 16:48, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
I would suggest "Should [clause] be added to the first sentence of the article?" You may or may not opt to neutrally summarize arguments for and against for the benefit of people coming in from outside. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 04:39, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for your suggestion. The request for comments option is something I had never used before (which may be obvious to you). Anyway, I took the time to read most of the article, and I now see that my proposal is not viable. For example, we can't exclude feminists, and there are other problems. In my opinion the lead section would have to be restructured to some degree, and that complicates everything, so I will forget about the request for comments. Thanks anyway for your help. Dontreader (talk) 05:21, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
Roscelese, please tell me, per the sources I provided that disappeared because of reversions, would you be okay with "used primarily by Democrats", or "used primarily by Democrats and women's rights groups"? I would prefer the first option because the "war on women" expression is totally political, and if we include "women's rights groups" then I guess we would have to include other people (although women's groups are in two of the sources I provided). The solution I most like, "used primarily by Democrats" includes the vast majority of Liberals and Progressives (see Democratic Party (United States) if necessary), and the reader would understand that some groups are not being mentioned because of the words "primarily Democrats", such as left-wing commentators (whose mission is to demonize Republicans anyway and try to help Democrats) and women's groups (who might not be openly Democratic, but if they feel so strongly about abortion rights then they are probably not Republican voters), among others. Please let me know what you think. Thanks. Dontreader (talk) 19:28, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
This seems to ignore the fact that the term is used by people of all political persuasions. See for instance Megyn Kelly's question to Trump at last night's debate. gobonobo + c 00:54, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, Gobonobo, but Megyn Kelly says in the video that Hillary Clinton (a Democratic politician) will accuse Trump of being part of the "war on women". Megyn Kelly never claims the term is real. I must insist that the article is better served by indicating who uses that term in the first sentence of the lead section, and I think "primarily Democrats" is a good solution. If I react to someone who believes that there's a war on women, and I say "No, there's no war on women, at least not in the US", are you going to claim that I use the term? I don't think that's right. If the Democrats stop using it, the term will vanish. Thanks again. Dontreader (talk) 01:09, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Donald Trump's remarks regarding Megyn Kelly[edit]

I'm not going to spend much energy debating this issue, but I really think the reference to Trump's remarks weakens the article. The lead section of "War on Women" says nothing about Republican men who make offensive remarks about women, or at least you have to admit that Trump's remarks have nothing to do with Republican policies and legislation that affect certain women. Kelly's question was absurd because derogatory remarks made about some women are not what the "War on Women" is about. The reality is that Trump insults everyone who upsets him, regardless of gender. He recently criticized Carly Fiorina's face, but later he indirectly made fun of Rand Paul's face during the CNN debate as well. I've lived for many years in two countries with very different cultures, and if Trump made a reference to Kelly's period, that's common among men all over the planet, I guarantee you. That doesn't make it right, but it should not be in this article. Conan O'Brien made a highly offensive (and premeditated) comment about female Fox News anchors being like porn stars, but that's not part of the "War on Women" either, per the description of the term in the article. Dontreader (talk) 21:18, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Re: Fiorina[edit]

@Dontreader: The removal wasn't a mistake. As I said in my edit summary, we should keep the article focused on its topic, which is not anything relating to women in/and American politics. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 19:58, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for telling me. The topic of the article is the so-called war on women. I wasn't the editor who first included Fiorina's remarks, but I think they are relevant because she addresses the topic. To me, erasing her comments weakens the article because POV becomes more obvious. That's my opinion. Anyway, I have removed this page from my watchlist. I hope you can work out a solution with the editor who added Fiorina's statements. All the best, Dontreader (talk) 21:19, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

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