Talk:West Australian Football League

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Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move. —Nightstallion (?) 10:43, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Western Australian Football League → West Australian Football League – West is correct (see banner at wafl.com.au). Already a redirect the wrong way round The-Pope 03:28, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Be WP:BOLD[edit]

The current title is obviously wrong. This is a case for WP:BOLD. I have moved the article. Snottygobble 04:01, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Rovers and Fremantle flags[edit]

I have it on record from an official WAFL booklet that Rovers only won one flag in 1885. If you include Unions with Fremantle II, they won 11 flags including seven in a row (the WAFL record) from 1890 to 1896. So I need cites for the claim that Rovers have won two flags and Fremantle (II) have only won ten. Footy Freak7 (talk) 00:04, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

When was the booklet written and what is it - is it a Footy Budget? For many years until the mid 80s the whole Unions/Freo thing wasn't well understood and Dave Clement did a lot of research to get the official records changed. I don't have my books with me to check but I'll check tonight. The-Pope (talk) 00:23, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
IIRC it was a WAFL Annual Report/Year Book, and it was more recent than the mid 80's. Footy Freak7 (talk) 00:37, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
I've got an Ampol's Sporting Records from 1978 that has Fremantle winning ten straight between 1887 and 1896. The AFL Record Guide to Season 2007 (always a reliable source on WAFL matters :P) has Rovers winning in 1885 and 91, but distinguishes between Unions (3 premierships) and Fremantle (8 premierships). I think most of the information on premierships stems from FullPointsFooty, which is dead now. A quick search on Trove comes up with the FFC's annual report for 1893 (last paragraph of the first column), which has Fremantle (the club or the town?) holding the premiership every year except 1885 and 1891. There was apparently some dispute between the FFC and the WAFA over umpiring, which caused Fremantle to drop out of the competition. The West Australian from 21 September 1891 (here, towards the bottom) has Rovers first on the "Premiership List", and appears this was the last round of the season. ANYWAY, the WAFL's Media Guide to the 2012 Season lists Rovers as having won in 1885 and 1891, which is probably as reliable a source as we're going to get (though of course it makes no distinction between the two Fremantle teams *sigh*). IA 03:13, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
*rolls eyes* Source clashes. A historian's nightmare. I would be paying more attention to the West Australian than Full Points Footy as it had a tendency to rely on poor sources. Looking at the Trove link I don't think that's anywhere near the end of the season. Fremantle has played one less game than the others which indicates they've only just started the last round of matches. Would be worth looking into October. Footy Freak7 (talk) 10:09, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
Okay, dug a little deeper, and I think I've figured out what happened, more or less: Fremantle forfeited their games against Centrals and Rovers in protest to what they called poor umpiring by a Mr. Croft in their previous game against Rovers, which caused them to drop to third on the ladder. The premiership came down to the last match between West Perth and Rovers (not really a grand final, as it was still part of the regular fixtures), which resulted in a draw, 4.10 (WP) to 4.7 (R) – I'm guessing behinds weren't counted at this stage. Also, I think this comment pretty much confirms it: "Fremantle supporters will feel very sore at not having any interest in the final match for the premiership. Really they have themselves to blame for the school-boyish behavior they have shown in ignoring the Association." Fremantle later challenged Rovers to a premiership decider under any umpire selected except Mr. Croft, which Rovers quite rightfully declined to take part in. Very interesting reading, and that's my historical research finished for the day :) IA 13:18, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
OK, all of my sources (modern GF budgets, Footy Registers and the Christian, Lee & Messenger book The Footballers all give Rovers the 1891 flag. The 1980/81 Registers (and prob more) have the following comment at the bottom of the page. "The above list varies from the official list held by the WAFL. The league list shows that the 1885, 87, 88, 89, 90 and 91 premiers were Fremantle and the 1886 premiers were Unions. However, we believe that the above list compiled, after many years research, by football historian Dave Clement to be correct.". The list is:
1885 Rovers
1886 Fremantle
1887-89 Unions
1890 Fremantle
1891 Rovers
1892-96 Fremantle
1897 West Perth
1898 Fremantle
1899 West Perth
1900 East Fremantle
Having read some of the papers of the time the difference in degree of coverage compared to now is stark - things such as clubs folding or being started barely get a mention. Also in the pre Grand Final days the concept of premiers may have been different. Things completely foreign to us such as challenge matches and the like may complicate who actually wins the premiership. I found that premiership list from Sept 1891 that shows Rovers a game ahead but a few days later I found a mention of Fremantle challenging Rovers to a match. I haven't found if that match was held or not. Fun, isn't it! The-Pope (talk) 13:26, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
I wish newspapers wrote like that these days – a couple of paragraphs on the game, the rest of the column on the toasts drunk, the speeches made, and the viands (there's my word of the day) consumed! This article has more on the challenge made (which was declined) and the circumstances surrounding it. Interesting to note that a team from Newcastle (Toodyay) toured in that month, and was soundly thrashed by both Fremantle and Rovers to the tune of 11 goals to none and 7 goals to none. *cough* GWS *cough* Gold Coast *cough*. IA 14:05, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
Now, now let's be nice to the Giants and the Suns, IA. *winks* Anyway, it would appear from what's been said that Fremantle took the rejection of the challenge as a forfeit and claimed the premiership - which would explain the anomaly. It was said on the WAFL page here that Rovers weren't a district team as such. The page on the club itself says the same thing. So their keeping of historical records may well have been non existant. On the other hand IIRC Fremantle's material would have been picked up by South Fremantle as most of it's remnants went to form the club without it simply being a name change. Thank goodness for the newspapers, no matter how they are written up! Footy Freak7 (talk) 21:39, 11 April 2012 (UTC)