Talk:Yellow-tailed black cockatoo

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Should "upper mandible" be called maxilla? I understand in birds the lower beak is the mandible and the upper beak is the maxilla. Snowman (talk) 10:59, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Gosh, I had not thought of that. okay. Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:15, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Re-think: "Upper mandible" sounds a bit strange by comparison with human anatomy, but I suppose most people know what it means. I wonder if it might be better to use commonly used descriptive language: perhaps "upper beak". Snowman (talk) 11:48, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
I would agree with that as the two are synonymous to all intents and purposes and one is alot more accessible to readers. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:50, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

PS: I had forgotten about this article, but I have moved house and there is a flock of these in the area I live -I was thinking about what to plant to attract them :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:18, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

For clarification[edit]

  • The two subspecies are different in size, so it might be worth adding the lengths of the two recognised subspecies separately, but my book does not give this. Snowman (talk) 00:01, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
I agree. I will be able to add some measurements from Higgins tonight (my time), so tomorrow morning UK time. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:10, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Yellow-tailed Black Cockatoo/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ucucha 18:17, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Some quick things:

  • Perhaps mention distribution of ssp in lead?
(okay, shuffled a bit - I am not a fan of parentheses but they seem to make it less confusing than more commas in the lead) Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:21, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Do you really need a separate subheading for xanthochroism?
(no, it is pretty stubby isn't it?) Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:31, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Should conservation status go under "Relationships with humans"?

Ucucha 18:17, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

(yeah, I think it is better moved actually) Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:23, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
  • "south and central eastern Queensland" - from the map, just saying southeastern Qld would look good enough.
Okay, some local knowledge is helpful here. The term SE Queensland is usually restricted for the SE corner (which is where the capital Brisbane is) - once you get much north of Brisbane, it becomes more "central" (even though still in the "southeast" of the state. Hence it reaches a bit of queensland better described as "central" - here is a government summary that uses the same word. Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:37, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
PS: And there is a definition here. Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:39, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
OK, thanks for the explanation; the current wording makes sense to me now. Ucucha 23:42, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Not sure whether the bold for the ssp is justified
(My view is that it helps navigation quite a bit - and have used it in Red-tailed Black Cockatoo and Common Raven, but not (I now realise) in Willie Wagtail. I guess looking here at MOS:BOLD#Boldface, it is a little like a (short) definition list. Italics are problematic as there is conflict with scientific names. Might be something worth raising on bird or mammal wikiproject anyway. If you feel really strongly I can remove it but I do think bolding makes it a little clearer) Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:38, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
Fair enough, let's keep it. Ucucha 23:42, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
  • (Add to list of words people outside the US spell in a weird way: moult)
  • cossid moth - refers to a family I guess? Then best link here.
(the first mention of the four is linked. Do you think the article is big enought to warrant one of the ones at the bottom linked as well?) 23:39, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
Actually fixed that myself after writing this, sorry. Ucucha 23:42, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Why do you have an accent mark only on χρόος and not on other Greek words?
(ack. Got the accent on the wrong vowel - it is the poetic form of the word where the two omicrons have been elided into an omega. I'll revisit my lexicon later and get back to you on that one.) Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:30, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
PS: damn, stuff is everywhere and the lexicon has gone walkabout. Nevermind, I'll lose the accent. Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:28, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
(gosh. didn't notice that one. I have never seen anything referenced on them specifically being talkers, though I suspect they'd have some ability but less than Little Corellas, african Greys etc. Will hunt that one and remove cat if unable to verify) Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:32, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
  • There seem to be a few things mentioned in the lead that are not in the body

Ucucha 18:39, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

added bit about Sydney in body of text. I didn't add the bit on Melboune, though I know they are there. Will look for a reliable source on that one. frustrating Have ahd some luck on Melbourne, but a local bird book would be better. I think I have rejigged so everything else in the lead is now in the body as well Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:24, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Good. You seem to have a contradiction where the lead says that the Eyre Peninsula population is critically endangered and the body that the SA population is vulnerable. Ucucha 15:58, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Okay - the bird occurs in different regions of southeastern South Australia. Overall, it is classified as "vulnerable" as there has been some decline noted. A further reason for the classification is the critical status of an isolated population further west on the Eyre Peninsula. This population, however, has no taxonomic status as such, it's just isolated. I'll see if I can clarify it I rewrote the bit so it should be clearer. Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:43, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Possible omission: At what age dose the grey eye-ring of the juvenile change to the pink colour of the adult? Snowman (talk) 23:40, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
got it - not much on it though. Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:24, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Is this heading for FAC? If so, I'll do a literature check to find out whether there's any good stuff you're missing. Ucucha 15:58, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Yes. Thanks/much appreciated in advance. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:11, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Here goes (Zoological Record):

  • Title: Mimetic song in superb lyrebirds: species mimicked and mimetic accuracy in different populations and age classes. Author(s): Zann, Richard; Dunstan, Emily Source: Animal Behaviour Volume: 76 Issue: 3 Page(s): 1043-1054 Published: September 2008
    • Lyrebirds mimic C. funereus.
(haha, cool and added. I once had a lyrebird mimic a mobile phone in the bush near me. freaky) Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:33, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 :-) Ucucha 13:19, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Title: Angiostrongylus cantonensis as a cause of cerebrospinal disease in a yellow-tailed black cockatoo (Calyptorhynchus funereus) and two tawny frogmouths (Podargus strigoides). Author(s): Monks, Deborah J.; Carlisle, Melissa S.; Carrigan, Mark; et al. Source: Journal of Avian Medicine and Surgery Volume: 19 Issue: 4 Page(s): 289-293 Published: December 2005
(fascinating and added - it's a rat nematode so in your area of interest too...) Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:51, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
I went off to write the article, only to discover that it's there already—that's what it gets for infecting humans. What are the parasites doing under "Behaviour"?
I changed heading to Ecology and behaviour - I guess because alot of the section is about both. I thought Parasites would look odd as a lvl 2 heading by itself. Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:36, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Good! Ucucha 13:52, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Title: Haematological characteristics of response to inflammation or traumatic injury in two species of black cockatoos: Calyptorhynchus magnificus and C. funereus. Author(s): Jaensch, S.; Clark, P. Source: Comparative Clinical Pathology Volume: 13 Issue: 1 Page(s): 9-13 Published: August 2004
(not earth-shattering - it says inflammation or traumatic injury led to haematological changes of mild to moderate anaemia, heterophilia and monocytosis.) Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:42, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Probably worth adding for FAC though. Ucucha 13:19, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
I just went to look at it again, and noted it is also a Western Australian article - and as they called the species the White-tailed, I suspect this is also from the time the two (three actually) were considered conspecific. Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:33, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
OK. Ucucha 13:52, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Title: Observations on a nesting hollow of yellow-tailed black cockatoo, and the felled tree that hosted it, in north-eastern Tasmania. Author(s): Wapstra, Mark; Doran, Niall Source: Tasmanian Naturalist Volume: 126 Page(s): 59-63 Published: 2004
(good little article. added) Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:16, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Title: A review of feather mites of the Psittophagus generic group (Astigmata, Pterolichidae) with descriptions of new taxa from parrots (Aves, Psittaciformes) of the Old World. Author(s): Mironov, Sergey V.; Dabert, Jacek; Ehrnsberger, Rainer Source: Acta Parasitologica Volume: 48 Issue: 4 Page(s): 280-293 Published: December 2003
(interesting. added) Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:57, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Title: Foraging behaviour of the yellow-tailed black cockatoo for larvae of the giant wood moth in hardwood plantations in south-east Queensland. Author(s): Dickinson, Geoffrey R.; Huth, John R.; Lawson, Simon A. Source: Sunbird Volume: 33 Issue: 3 Page(s): 99-107 Published: December 2003
(this has been discussed in material I've read - we've got info on them hunting moth larvae. I might expand a bit for FAC) Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:39, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Title: Eyre Peninsula yellow-tailed black-cockatoo. Author(s): van Weenen, Jason; Ancell, Di; Cooper, Jane Source: Wingspan Volume: 11 Issue: 2 Page(s): 32-33 Published: June 2001
(the same author has placed updated info on the webpages) Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:16, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Title: Carnaby's Cockatoos feeding on liquidamber. Author(s): Kenneally, Kevin F. Source: Western Australian Naturalist Volume: 23 Issue: 3 Page(s): 224-225 Published: January 31 2002
(used to be conspecific, now separated out) Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:16, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Sorry for missing that; the WA journal should have been a red flag. Ucucha 13:19, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

And it goes on (81 records). There's obviously a lot that has been published on this species; some may be interesting (like the disease and parasites stuff), some probably doesn't add much to what is already in the article. Ucucha 20:59, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

  • "but birds seized by governments": presumably these are smuggled birds. The abstract of the source says "national government officials": is this in Australia only or it this world wide confiscation? Clarity issues should be easy to fix. Snowman (talk) 10:52, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
I am presuming it means governments in Europe as the birds are already in Europe (i.e. birds not intercepted until they got to Europe), and hence might have been better placed in local zoos rather than face a long journey and then stay in quarantine back home to Australia. Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:11, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
PS: changed to "birds seized by European government agencies" Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:39, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Subspecies: You call the possible third one both whitei and whiteae. Also, I'm not sure why you're saying that the Tasmanian population would be the third subspecies, since it is the mainland birds that would go to another subspecies name. Isn't it less cumbersome to say that those from the mainland represent a possible third subspecies? Ucucha 13:52, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Good point. I wonder why it was worded like that. I think because most of the study has been of birds in Victoria and South Australia, hence even though the type was tasmanian in origin, much of what we know about what we call xanthonotus is from mainland (not tassie) specimens. Tricky - not sure what to do about it as that is how it is impressed in the source(s) Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:01, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
PS: On that basis, I'd err on the side of caution with sources, so I changed the lead to reflect sitting on the fence really. Funnily enough, the author Mathews also had a problem with gender of whiteae/whitei...but I have streamlined it for the text. Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:28, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
I think the change in the lead is an improvement (and was in fact planning to do the same change), and similarly changed the text. We don't need to say that either mainland or Tas birds would be the third subspecies, so it's better to just avoid the issue. Thanks for the spelling clarification. Ucucha 14:34, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Actually, are you able to get the fulltext of the Zoo article I found? ref 48 - Management and husbandry of black cockatoos Calyptorhynchus spp in captivity? Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:54, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
On its way. Ucucha 21:57, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Okay, I have added some zoo material. I think I have addressed all I can at the moment (as I can't find the damn lexicon now...packing boxes everywhere..) Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:28, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
The talking birds category? I'll read again tomorrow to see whether I have anything else to pick on, and then likely pass. Ucucha 04:31, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

I removed the cat - cockatoos in general are indifferent talkers (Corellas being exceptions) - if we include this bird we should include a great many psittacines. I have not seen any referenced material about YTBCs having any talking ability, though I suspect they could learn a few words. Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:06, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

A few more things:

  • Measuring around 33 cm (13 in), tail length averages 5 cm (2 in) longer than in xanthonotus. - This is from the description of xanthanotus...
(oops - that was left over from before disentangling the subspecies. removed now) Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:14, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Yellow-tailed Black Cockatoos can cause damage in pine and eucalyptus plantations by weakening stems through gouging out pieces of wood in order to extract moth larvae. These gum plantations result in a corresponding increase in the larva of the cossid moth Xyleutes boisduvali, which resulted in increased predation by cockatoos. Furthermore, the plantations lacked undergrowth which would have prevented cockatoos from damaging younger trees. - the first part of the second sentence doesn't make sense, and are you speaking about a particular plantation or about a general rule here?
(clarified as general rule - could take 'generally' out I suppose...). Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:17, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I am still at a loss what "gum plantations result in a corresponding increase in the larva" means. Ucucha 22:21, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Eucalyptus monoculture --> increased population of moths --> alot more cockies are gouging great chunks out of young trees to get at them. Not sure how to make it clearer but can think about it Casliber (talk ·

contribs) 14:05, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

PS: Tried "These gum plantations result in a corresponding increase in population of the larva of the cossid moth Xyleutes boisduvali, which then leads to increased predation (and hence tree damage) by cockatoos." Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:16, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
  • I read somewhere that this is the largest cockatoo and largest known Australian psittaciform. If true, it would be nice to include it.
(I know! this has baffled me too - I have seen it mentioned here and there as the largest, but everywhere seems a bit shy in coming out and stating it for some reason. I will hunt around..) Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:17, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
PS: Addendum - the Palm Cockatoo is heavier and chunkier and more or less the same length, so this is why the ambivalence about the size I think. I should have remembered this. Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:22, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Ucucha 20:59, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

OK, I am passing the article now. Thanks for all the fixes. It should do well at GAN, although my literature search hasn't been totally exhaustive yet, so I might have to do another check. Ucucha 15:04, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Speculation on third subspecies[edit]

Higgins - i.e. the monster sized HANZAB book - discusses taxonomy and intraspecific variation quite a bit, including Saunders' observations, the fact that these observations have not to date been replicated (i.e. inconsistent further material) and also notes the naming issue - that an old subspecific name whiteae from Gregory Mathews would thus be erected as the new name - it also says the consensus is two subspecies. I am not sure which bit we are thinking is OR here. Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:53, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

PS: It is discussed on page 76 of the Higgins book. I left the commented out note at the bottom of the xanthonotus paragraph ><!-- covers previous five sentences --> to highlight the referencing. Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:55, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

It is unsourced as far as I could see, unless I dig into the code, which I did not do. And the sentence flow did not make it logical that the whole previous section was covered by the statement. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 14:15, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
Sorry - I have taken to the commented out segments in the code - I was reluctant to pepper the text with the same inline reference number. Nothing's ever easy.....Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:19, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
Cas, I do that myself at times, but this statement was so opposite to the sentence before it, and not logically loinked to the piece with the reference that I did not realize it was one ref. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 03:31, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

For clarification[edit]

  • Are there any conservation projects? Such as preserving old trees, or providing suitably sized strong nest boxes where there is a shortage of old trees. Snowman (talk) 11:22, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
There is the specific conservation program in the Eyre Peninsula, which is mentioned in the article, but otherwise the species is not considered threatened and so there is no specific program relating to the species. Although there are general conservation measures in trying to protect old-growth forest and large trees for many birds. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:04, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
I see, so the ecosystem is being conserved together with all the animals within. Snowman (talk) 22:57, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Yes. Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:32, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Should alternative names be mentioned at the start of the introduction? - Funereal Cockatoo, Yellow-eared Cockatoo, Yellow-tailed Cockatoo, Wylah. Snowman (talk) 13:14, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
I did ponder this - none of these names are really current, they are all fairly antiquated (in the case of the first two), proposed but not used much at all (the third), or quite specific (Wylah is mentioned as an old aboriginal name from the Hunter Region north of Sydney, but really exists only as an alternative name recorded and mentioned in large parrot books). I am not really fussed either way but I'd question they are core material for the lead. It is worth discussing on the birds wikiproject discussion page and seeing what consensus we get. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:04, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
"Wylah" is different to the other names. Is it an Aboriginal name? Is this cockatoo important to the Aboriginal people? Snowman (talk) 23:14, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Yes it is an aboriginal name. I did look and ask extensively about folklore and names of the Yellow-tailed Black Cockatoo in local aboriginal culture, but with little success. Unfortunately the aboriginal population of southeastern Australia has lost much of its culture and language early on in European Settlement. I would love to expand this area. Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:32, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Do pairs bond for "life"? Snowman (talk) 13:15, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Will check what the sources say. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:04, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
In Higgins p. 71, the pair bond is described as "strong" and the species is described as monogamous, however it does not mention anything about pairing for life or clarify whether the same pair remains together for a number of years. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:11, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Although, the parrot in the video clip is quiet, there is a squawking noise in the background. I have asked the photographer, if he knows if this is another Yellow-tailed Black Cockatoo calling. Something could be added to the caption. Are there any opinions on the squawking? Snowman (talk) 23:12, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
I'll have a listen.I agree about noting another bird on the recording. Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:32, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Aviceda has replied on his talk page, I think he say that other Yellow-tailed Black Cockatoo(s) are squawking in the background. Snowman (talk) 21:02, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Is a table for subspecies needed? Snowman (talk) 11:14, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
Common and binomial names Identifying features Range
Eastern Yellow-tailed Black Cockatoo
(C. f. funereus)
It is distinguished by its overall larger size, longer tail and wings, and larger bill and claws.[1][2] The plumage is a more solid oily brown-black. Measuring around 33 cm (13 in), the average tail length is 5 cm (2 in) longer than xanthanotus. Male birds weigh on average around 731 g (1.6 lb), and female birds 800 g (1.8 lb).[3] Found from Berserker Range in central Queensland, south through New South Wales, and into eastern Victoria.
Southern Yellow-tailed Black Cockatoo
(C. f. xanthanotus)
Male birds of mainland specimens of xanthanotus weigh on average around 630 g, and female birds 637 g (1.4 lb) Population in western Victoria and southeastern South Australia
Saunders reported in 1979 that male birds from Tasmania had wider bills than their mainland relatives, and that Tasmanian female birds were larger than males.[2] Male and female birds while Tasmanian birds average 583 and 585 g (1.3 lb) respectively. Population on Tasmania (and perhaps the islands of the Bass Strait)

I have been thinking about the table - overall I think the article looks better without it. A table always strikes me as something definitive, and there are still some big questions about Tasmanian vs SE mainland xanthanotus that don't fit into a table format well. I think it might have merit in some other bird articles though. Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:47, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

The image is effectively draft and I stopped working on it when I realised that you were working on the text. The table could be developed. In-the-round I see what you mean. Snowman (talk) 20:21, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
NB: I thought it was very good for the ringneck article, and there will be some others - the Herring Gull species complex comes to mind, and maybe the Eclectus Parrot, which I will be working on soon (I know three people with these as a pet and they are lovely birds) Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:40, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
It turns out that the prose of the description section has become rather complex. There might be grounds for a table. Snowman (talk) 12:14, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
  • The flow of the xanthanotus subsection is tricky. I thought of an alternative - Gould names it, then placing material on whiteae named by Mathews next - Mathews was a splitter who named alot of varieties on minor differences. Then discussion on differences. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:48, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
  • I wonder if there is a illustration of the parrot in Gould's book - it might help an expanded history section. Snowman (talk) 21:00, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
  • That's a good idea. I suspect it is old enough to be Public Domain...Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:09, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

there! gotta go now. Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:13, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

The link works, but I think it is subscription only. That sort of a book should be elsewhere too. Snowman (talk) 21:17, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Is there any more information on why the second chick often dies. Is it because the parents can not collect the required amount of food? Is it because the first chick is bigger? Snowman (talk) 21:47, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
It is a pretty common phenomenon in birds - Eudyptes penguins, eagles, kookaburras etc. I think there are several advantages - an extra egg in case of egg failure to hatch, if food is superabundant, one might get two to fledging. The nesting habits of the YTBC in the wild have not been well studied (those trees are very tall!), so I don't know how much detail we could go into, and little of it is specific to this species. Food for thought as to where to discuss though...Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:49, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
It would be interesting to find out if the incubation starts after laying of the first egg or second egg. This would indicate the size difference between the first and second chick. Snowman (talk) 13:17, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
Surely incubation starts after the first egg (?) as it needs to be kept warm. I will see what I can find. Wow, you were right. That surprised me. Just found some differential egg measurement notes to add as well. Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:07, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
A newly laid egg can even be kept in a fridge (above freezing point) for about a week or slightly longer and still be ok. It is only when the chick in the egg starts growing that the egg needs to be kept warm. I thought everyone knew that. Snowman (talk) 23:51, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
Nope, I didn't, so I have learnt something new today :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:35, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

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  1. ^ Cite error: The named reference hig66 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  2. ^ a b Cite error: The named reference Saunders79 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  3. ^ Higgins, p. 76.