User talk:Nora lives/Archive V

Ímar Ua Donnabáin

A necromancer, a family founder, a castle, and an enchanted ship; that looks like it is going to be an interesting good article. I put it on my watchlist. Good luck with it.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 09:28, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Thank you! I'll do my best! There is a source still in MS that I need, the O'Donovan pedigree by John Collins of Myross, but have no ability to access at present, wherever it actually is. Maybe our lazy and "important" character above has access to it. But until then I have enough bits to put a little into each section of the article. DinDraithou (talk) 14:58, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Steenstrup

Steenstrups writings doesn't really seem useful to your purpose here, so I'll just drop a summary instead of a full translation. "Simeon of Durham tells in Historia de gestis Regum Anglorum for the year 912: „Reingwald rex et Oter comes et Osvul Cracabam irrupérunt et vastaverunt Dunbline'" Steenstrup (S) goes on to argue against "some authors" (not named here) who have identified "Dunbline" as "Dublin", whereas S. argues it must be Dunblane in Scotland. He also mentions that "some" has tried to place Dunbline in Waterford. S. also, referring to Simeons unreliable dating in general, places this campaign at "Dunbline" to 918 - then after Ottar campaigning at Severn 918.

Probably not very useful this, if I'd known what Bugge uses Steenstrup as reference for I might have spotted the (possibly) useful part - all in all I'm not overly impressed by Prof Steenstrups presentation - I'm tagging his 19th century book with {{weasel words}} and {{no reliable sources}}... All the best, Finn Rindahl (talk) 10:39, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't say S. is generally useless, he was probably writing according to the academic tradition of his time and those unnamed authors he argues against may have been known to his readers at the time. It's just very hard to follow any leads from him present day. Looking at the Ottir Iarla article there are two scraps of information in Steenstrups writing that present interesting clues to stuff we should try to find other sources for - one is of course that he is mentioned in Historia Regum by Symeon-even though "912 Dunbline" may be utterly confused I seem to recall that there's been general confusion about the battle(s) of Corbridge. The second is that S. mentions that Munch (Norske Folks Historie L 691) places Ottar at Severn in 918. I'll try to check what Munch actually wrote :) Ottar of Dublin is added to my watchlist btw Finn Rindahl (talk) 16:41, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Not enough onlinetime to nest this completely, but the Severn-thingy seem to be from Anglo-Saxon chronicle 918:

"A.D. 918. This year came a great naval armament over hither

south from the Lidwiccians; (40) and two earls with it, Ohter and Rhoald. They went then west about, till they entered the mouth of the Severn; and plundered in North-Wales everywhere by the sea, where it then suited them; and took Camlac the bishop in Archenfield, and led him with them to their ships; whom King Edward afterwards released for forty pounds. After this went the army all up; and would proceed yet on plunder against Archenfield; but the men of Hertford met them, and of Glocester, and of the nighest towns; and fought with them, and put them to flight; and they slew the Earl Rhoald, and the brother of Ohter the other earl, and many of the army. And they drove them into a park; and beset them there without, until they gave them hostages, that they would depart from the realm of King Edward.

"

Those Lidwiccians are identified by Munch as "Loire- Norwegians" - whatever that is. Best regards, Finn Rindahl(talk) 17:12, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Jarl Otir

Great find! Urselius (talk) 07:26, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

There's a short wiki article on the Thorgillsson family: Mac Thorcáill. In it Hasculf is described as fleeing to Scotland after the Normans took over Dublin. I wonder if there is any history of later feuding in Scotland between the Mac Oitirs and the Thorgillssons? The disposal of Ottar in Dublin sounds like the archetypal trigger for a feud. Urselius (talk) 08:21, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

One would think. But I doubt the Scots have anything from that period. They were not the best at writing. And at that time the islands, and even parts of the mainland, were not in Scotland. Any stories would have to be Norse or possibly Welsh or even Norman I would think. I have just found this,[1] a scholarly account of the end of Norse Dublin beginning on p. 369. Following that is an account of the later history of the Norse in Ireland and your family are listed on p. 374. Gjerset's source Worsaae can be crawled through in Danish here.[2] I wish User:Finnrind would return! Ottar of Dublin's grandfather the Jarl is mentioned on p. 358 and it has to do with Magnus III of Norway. Eventually we may have enough for an article. DinDraithou (talk) 23:24, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Google translate has not been of much help. Either Jarl Ottar was driven out by Magnus, who replaced him with another Jarl Macmanus/Magnusson, or his invasion made it possible for this new jarl to drive Ottar out. "Jarlen Ottar, der efter Magnus Barfods Tog var sat over Man, blev fordreven af Manboerne (Manverjar), som i hans Sted toge sig en anden Jarl af Navnet Macmanus (eller Magnuson). Men der udbrod nu Borgerkrig paa Öen, og da Kong Magnus Barfod paa et nyt Tog til de vestlige Öer faldt i Irland (1103)..." DinDraithou (talk) 23:50, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

"The jarl Ottar, who after Magnus Barelegs campaign had been placed over Man, was driven out by the Manx people (Manverjar), who in his place took another earl by name Macmanus (or Magnusson). But a civil war broke out on the island, and when King Magnus Barelegs on a new campaign to the western islands fell in Ireland (1103)..." Hopefully a bit more understandable than Googletrans. - the text seem to say that Ottar was installed by king Magnus, and then deposed by the islanders after Magnus' departure. Drop me a line if you need some translations fro, Danish/Norwegian - I should be around more regularly from now on. Cheers, Finn Rindahl (talk) 23:02, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Finn! Google and I surely had it wrong. Glad you have returned! DinDraithou (talk) 02:40, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Cotter

There seems to be a certain amount of information out there, thanks for the links. Very interesting is the son of Therulfe, another Oitir/Ottar! Urselius (talk) 10:59, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

The Cotter baronets aren't very high up on my list of things to do, perhaps I can add some inline citations for the baronet section at some time. My Cotters were all (fairly devout) Catholics, so my connection with the baronet family predates the mid 1700s. I rather think that I'm a Mac Coitir Ruadh descendant rather than Buidhe. However, there must be enough for short articles on Ottar of Man and Thorfinn filius Oter now. Urselius (talk) 16:20, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the Irish Sea Zone Viking paper, looks interesting. I hope it wasn't too costly. Urselius (talk) 09:23, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Inspiration?

Hi DD, I'm trying to get back into writing mood, but it's been so long I'm not really sure where to begin. What are you up to these days - still Ottar(s)? Any suggestions for stuff that needs writing/expansion (red links or blue) most welcome.

Noticed that block incident - not Wikipedias proudest moment... But I hope you're not too angry about what happened, and especially I hope you don't bear a grudge against the Deacon - he's one of the good guys and an excellent and knowledgeable editor who helped me a lot when I first came around here at English wikipedia. Best regards, Finn Rindahl (talk) 15:47, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

He comes from a nation with an extremely limited tradition of scholarship, because unlike all their neighbors across land and sea they were uncultured, so what he flashes on his userpage I'm not impressed by. Neither university is known for Gaelic studies, or for medieval studies I'm aware of for that matter, although I'm sure they know all of what little there is to know about the illustrious Picts and their tribal body paint (surely they offer advanced degrees in it now). Then I receive an uninformed and inarticulate lecture on my talk page from this same person who not long ago blocked me without warning for what? There's nothing like a pretentious "Scot" putting on airs. Finn you can write about that. The English properly laugh at them. Sporrans and thistles. Probably even they're second hand. Everything else they know is.

I'd love to know more about the history of the Fairhair/Hardrada dynasties and Ireland. We have Magnus III of Norway and Blathmin ingen Muircheartaig and little else. There were Irish who claimed descent from Magnus, mentioned in the Book of Lecan, and supported by the existence Harald Gille.[3] Bugge covers this capably but I don't know of any Irish scholars who have been interested. DinDraithou (talk) 18:33, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Anyway so this was the Great Book of Lecan of which the parts needed are now lost. Bugge quotes Eugene O'Curry who quotes Duald Mac Firbis: "the pedigrees and wars and battles of the Danes in Ireland are to be found in the Great Book of Lecan Mac Firbis", "but of these tracts not a vestige remains in this book." Mac Firbis says that "Magnus", whom Bugge identifies with Magnus Bareleg, "and his descendants in Ireland are mentioned in the Great Book of Lecan." Or were.

Magnus became a hero in Irish legend and became a character in the Ossianic or Finn Cycle (Finn Rindahl?), with which I wish I was more familiar because the stories and poems might contain great secrets. Bugge thus concludes "Mac Firbis has known of a now lost poem or a tale on Magnus Bareleg, king of Norway. The Ossianic poems about him certainly must be based on a more ancient historic poem." And apparently there is even a surviving (Norse?) poem of Magnus' very own composition, a "love-poem on an Irish girl". You must be able to find this somewhere! For all I have discussed see Bugge's introduction. pp. V-VII.[4] DinDraithou (talk) 21:09, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Here (pp. 165-6, for which type n176, n177,[5] Bugge says "Det vældige Slag ved Clontarf i 1014 forstyrrede ikke Forholdet mellem Irer og Nordboer. Tværtimod -- efter denn Tid ophører Vikingetogene til Irland; Magnus Barfods Tog er det eneste Forsøg, som senere blev gjort fra Nordboernes Side paa at skabe sig et Vælde i Ireland. Som den sidste Viking i Ireland spiller ogsaa Magnus Barfod en større Rolle i det irske Heltesagn end nogen anden Vikingehøvding. Allerede i irske Haand-skrifter fra det 14de Aarhundred findes der Vers om ham***(Den saak. "Spraglede Bog" (Leabhar Breac), fol. 256.). Og ved Middelalderens Slutning er Magnus Barfod og hans Heltegjerninger vævet ind i Sagnkredsen om Finn og Ossian. I et irsk Haandskrift fra omkr. 1600 findes em Samling Digte og Fortællinger under Navnet "Finns Sangbog". En af Fortællingerne her skildrer Finn og hans Feniers Tog til Lochlann eller Norge, hvor de ødelægger "Magnus den stores" Rige. Deres farligste Fiende er en gammel Kvinde, som vækker Kong Magnus's Følge tillive, efterat de er faldne -- en irsk Gjengivelse af det nordiske Sagn om Hild og Haddingjekampen *(Jfr. H. Zimmer i Gøttingische gelehrte Anzeigen 1890, No. 12. Ang. de irske Digte om Magnus Barfod, jfr. ogsaa A. Bugge, Contrib. to the history of the Norsemen in Ireland, II (Videnskabsselskabets Skrifter, Kristiania 1900.)). I Digte fra det 17de Aarhundred fortælles der om Magnus, Norges Konge eller "Bergens Konge", som han ogsaa kaldes, om hans Tog til Irland og hans Kampe med Finn og Fenierne. Endnu den Dag idag mindes Magnus Barford i Irland. Paa flere Steder i Irland bruger Bønderne, naar de vil sige, at en Mand tager Søveien, isteden Udtrykket: "Han tager "Manus's Vei" (bóthar Manuis **(Manus er en senere irsk Form af Navnet Magnus.)).alt scan DinDraithou (talk) 22:20, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Alexander Bugge, Contributions to the History of the Norsemen in Ireland.[6] Simply search for Magnus in the text and you will pull up the relevant passages. Charlotte Brooke, Reliques of Irish Poetry.[7][8] DinDraithou (talk) 22:37, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Din D. - thourough as always :) I got inspired indeed - but maybe not exactly the way you intended, I'm figuring I ought to write about Alexander Bugge, Johannes Bruun, Carl Marstrander and those pioneers in modern Scandinavian insular scholarship (just noticed CM is a blue link...)

There are actually two Finns from Norway writing about medieval Ireland and Scotland - the other being no:bruker:Finn Bjørklid. That has confused a number of fellow editors;)

You seem to have understood perfectly the paragraph cited above from Bugge, but if you like a full translation just let me know. Best regards, Finn Rindahl (talk) 10:19, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. If I run into trouble I will. And I'm glad to have done something good. Bugge deserves an article. DinDraithou (talk) 09:54, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Croom Castle

Hello there DinDraithou, The Ireland WikiProject had a meet up in Dún Laoghaire on Sept 25th, so I asked RA (talk) to ask if anybody was from Limerick or would be heading that way and if so, to take a picture of the Castle. I’ve not heard back but will let you know when I do. Hope you're doing well. Malke 2010 (talk) 02:35, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi there Malke! Thank you! I'm doing well enough and hope that you are too. It will be nice if we can finally get a picture. I have since come across a reference or two to how the Kildares ended up with Croom and have become confused. That they were granted it a few decades after 1200 would appear to be on record but I can find no reference to the actual conquest, which may have actually been performed by the De Burghs or someone else. The O'Donovan story became increasingly incredible so the FitzGerald one probably did too. Also I'm embarrassed to say that eventually some O'Donovans even adopted the FitzGerald war cry thinking that it was originally taken from them, and some apparently still think that. After a few mentions in the 13th century the family became absolute nobodies until making a surprisingly dignified reappearance, for a minor family, at the end of Gaeldom (the rest of Ireland appear to have been unaware they still existed). So they imagine all sorts of things because they have no idea of what they were actually doing for three centuries. Who knows what really went on, or if they and the FitzGeralds ever came into contact at all. DinDraithou (talk) 18:25, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, they're all still around so at least they've been successful at reproduction. It's been hard to find information and I've not had much luck with it. I was very busy through the summer and I couldn't give it much attention. I'm working on some articles right at the moment, but when I'm done I'll get back to this one. I really do like the story. What sources are you using? Malke 2010 (talk) 22:06, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

One is the following, p. 177

• Begley, John. The Diocese of Limerick, Ancient and Medieval. Dublin: Browne & Nolan. 1906.

Begley says 1216, less than my "few decades". I may have saved the link to the other on the other computor, which is currently suffering some difficulties. Incidentally the first verifiable FitzGerald/O'Donovan contact I know of came around the time when the son and heir of Donal IV O'Donovan married a daughter of the 13th Knight of Kerry. DinDraithou (talk) 17:23, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Here I have the other, which is only a little more specific, p. 233

• Gibson, Charles Bernard. Historical Portraits of Irish Chieftains and Anglo-Norman Knights. London: Longmans, Green, and Co. 1871.

So "by a mandatory letter of Henry III., dated the 26th of November, 1216, Maurice came into possession of Maynooth... and... the castle of Crom..." For the latter Gibson cites Cox's Carberiae Notitia, the passage I already have at Croom Castle. Neither Gibson nor Begley mention any capture of the castle. DinDraithou (talk) 22:04, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

greetings

Noticed your improvements to the Irish Settlement section of an article I put up not long ago ... I've recently come back from a long break, nice to make contact again. Regards, Notuncurious (talk) 19:29, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

As you imply, the article is (I think) a sound starting point, but not the final version, with improvements and enhancements to come. We still seem to agree that gaining knowledge is an evolutionary process, but that shouldn't stop anyone from laying out a non-final version as a framework to start from. Looks like that map showing Déisi arrival in Wales is now showing its age ... when we get to a comfortable stopping point (or if you come upon some compelling information), I'll update it. Regards, Notuncurious (talk) 22:01, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Colmán Little and Big

I'm having a go at redoing Colmán Bec to turn two Colmáns into one. Please correct any mistakes! Would also be great if you can see how to split this up into sections. Anyway, no more delay, must get busy. Diarmait mac Cerbaill will be at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates before Imbolc, or I'm a Dutchman. (Well, I do speak Dutch, almost, so ...) Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:28, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi Angus! That's looking really nice. But I'm not the most qualified in the early Uí Néill. It's been a long time since reading Byrne and I think I didn't quite finish those chapters. I should know the history of the great Clann Cholmáin better, since they were ruined and had their legacy and accomplishments stolen by the same Déisi thieves and usurpers and falsifiers who stole Luimnech and Mumu from others. I did make a few changes to Máel Sechnaill mac Domnaill recently and would like to see his article expanded. He was the last true King of Tara. Let me tell you what I think of the unworthy character who deposed him. DinDraithou (talk) 17:36, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

If you want to work on Mael S. m D, you've probably just received an email with a link to Hudsons ODNB biography. If you haven't, give me a ping and I'll send it as an attachment. Best regards, Finn Rindahl (talk) 22:28, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

I got it. Thank you. Hudson does more respectably than Wikipedia. DinDraithou (talk) 18:04, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

I also have access to the ODNB courtesy of Glasgow libraries. Hurrah! Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:38, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Alexander Bugge

Expanded it a bit, using Claus Krags biography. It would be most welcome if you could copyedit my additions - my English is lacking at the best of times, but when I'm working with a source in Norwegian it gets worse I'm afraid. If you can help find a good "hook" this might be a possible DYK-candidate. Bets regards, Finn Rindahl (talk) 23:25, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Mum-mum-mum-mah! Bugge is looking great! Nicely done. I plan to expand that bibliography soon and will try to think of a good "hook". Lady Gaga will inspire me since hers are so great. I see others have done the cleaning up. But your English is great and I can tell you simply got tired. Mum-mum-mum-mah! DinDraithou (talk) 17:36, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Mail

Hi Din, I sent a couple of things to your gmail account the yesterday, hope you received it - it is that account you're using now, isn't it? Best regards, Finn Rindahl (talk) 11:04, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I did! Responding and thanking you was already top of my list today. Thank you! I also wanted to finish reading O Corrain, which took me some time, before responding. Long paper. He really was hard on Smyth but it looks like he deserved it. And maybe there was a slight of O Corrain or a colleague we don't know about, or scholarship itself was insulted. Maybe O Corrain was reacting like I (and others) have reacted to (what I have seen of) Hudson's Viking Pirates. Both Hudson and Smyth are accused of not citing others properly and in many cases not at all. Both also seem to write like aspiring celebrities and I know this because I own Smyth's Warlords and Holy Men.

You read my mind or something too. I was recently looking for O Corrain's paper without success. His coverage of Ivar (died 873) in Ireland and Britain is greatly valuable because such a skeptic conceding the British and Irish ones are probably the same, for all his discussion of the problematic sources, really supports what we find in the ODNB biography by Costambeys (for which I also thank you) and his sources. You've changed my priorities and I think the historical one will need an article separate from Ivar the Boneless. DinDraithou (talk) 16:38, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I was mainly concerned that I might have used the wrong e-mail, but I'm glad the article(s) was useful, glad to be able to send you something in return for all the stuff you kindly have sent me. I don't want to distract you even more than I already did, but I still sent links for some more ODNB articles. Best regards, Finn Rindahl (talk) 19:20, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Thank you! Wow! There really are a few gemstones in that collection which will be very useful. And Hudson does well with these little biographies. You're too good to me! Now I have to start looking for new and exciting things you might not have. DinDraithou (talk) 18:52, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Regarding Smyth, have any of you guys read his Scandinavian Kings of Britain? I read that a couple years ago. I loved that book, it totally got me hooked on Viking Age, and really interested in the mediaeval Hebrides. Another one of my favourite books was John Morris's massive The Age of Arthur, and that book was also roasted by his peers. Funny how the good reads don't always stack up as the greatest of sources!--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 21:11, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

I would like to have all of Smyth's works on the subject, especially Scandinavian York and Dublin, both volumes of it. He is still widely cited, maybe because he gets it right as often as he messes up. Some people are just like that. At least he has an imagination. Hudson too. Another one who messes up is Downham but in a very different way. She is conservative, and is imperfectly familiar with her primary sources here and there, which I find irritating in combination. But she shows promise and hopefully we'll see a better 2nd edition of her book. The new book by the semi-outsider Mary Valante, on the other hand, is typo city (not her fault) but she is pretty great and innovative and I hope she gains ground. Incredible footnotes. She is not necessarily right everywhere and the situation with her 15 maps is perhaps strange, but there is just so much goodness I'm willing to overlook this. Probably I should email her. DinDraithou (talk) 23:57, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

And thank you for the new book, Brianann! I will be examining and making use of it shortly. DinDraithou (talk) 00:20, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Monarchs vs Kings

Monarchs of Dublin, Kings of Limerick. Could we not standardise on the category names? Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:08, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter. Neither Tomrair nor Amlaib are actually styled kings of Limerick in the surviving sources but that is what they actually were, and how the occasional modern writer goes ahead and styles them. If we accept the AClonmacnoise account, and there is no reason not to, that Tomrair actually belonged to some royal family "of Denmark" (wherever), then there is nothing wrong with the style. Other Irish sources style him "jarl" but this had a variable meaning and could mean sovereign prince. If we accept that Amlaib of Limerick in the Caithreim is identical with Cenncairech (probably) then it's alright to style him so as well. He's the only one from that epic propaganda tract the hyper-skeptical O Corrain is willing to allow. It's just for the readers here. Limerick is very poorly documented in the annals and yet still these people were obviously the cause of some serious havoc. O Corrain in another paper describes Limerick under them as "a menace to all the north and west of Ireland" or something like that. Really it was the whole thing because they even tried to set up in Leinster. Overlords of Limerick (and affiliated bases) might better describe them, that being what the later Ui Brian actually made themselves as well. Monarch is a term I'm less comfortable with, also for Dublin. A number of Dublin "monarchs" got thrown out by the Dubliners themselves. A king you can throw out. DinDraithou (talk) 22:21, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Coat of Arms Croom Castle

An editor removed the CoA on the article but I reverted it because it seems highly relevant to me so I've opened a discussion on the article talk page. Thought you might be interested. Malke 2010 (talk) 00:37, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

I saw all that. That user, with whom I have a history and will not interact, obviously should not have removed them. The Kildare arms and war cry are one of the major subjects of the article. The O'Donovans even mentioned them in the 17th century! And what do you bet we could find them hanging there today? Notably the castle's website celebrates its FitzGerald lineage. If that user removes them again or has something to say on the talk page just go ahead and adapt some of this (which you already know), and/or we could ask someone else to offer their opinion. If I step in it could get bitter. DinDraithou (talk) 01:26, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

And did I say before that I dislike that website? They must give no pictures of the pile because it looks like shit. We only get to see pictures of the new little house they built out of some of it. Also the claim the O'Donovan fortress was wooden just irritates me considering the ancient Gaels were perfectly capable of building with stone in their own way. I imagine it was originally notable for its walls, a most important feature of a fortress, which one would imagine are still there in some capacity, if incorporated or rebuilt. DinDraithou (talk) 21:24, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Cotters again

Hi,

I've managed to winkle out enough information from the Cork journal to add sections on Ottar of Man, Thorfin, and his son Therulfe. The chronology is now reasonable from he 1090s to 1170s, with a lacuna (which seems to be ackowledged in all Cotter-related literature) until Maurice in the 1290s. The article also now has a reference to the family, in the person of Therulfe, migrating to Cork and has a tie-in for the ancestry of the Manx MacCotters.

Regards,Urselius (talk) 12:08, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

I've watched you expand it with admiration. I plan to come back and add what I've found that Bugge discovered but am not sure how to do it yet. Also he cites some primary sources we may or may not be able to find ourselves. Will get back to you. DinDraithou (talk) 04:41, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Sounds very promising. Urselius (talk) 09:21, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

"What Bugge discovered" - this might be something I already promised to look into (but didn't) - but anyway, if this concerns some specific passages in Bugges work I'd be happy to try to extract&translate the relevant information for you. Best regards, Finn Rindahl (talk) 10:09, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that I've gotten myself buried under a mountain of this and that. For what Bugge discovered that I know of see the page numbers I provided at Talk:Óttar_of_Dublin#Burning of cathedral in Kells (Antrim). There were Ottarssons in Meath too at one time, it looks like, but his sources remain to be investigated. But for the moment Googling for "Macotere" and "Makotere" gives us: [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] Two articles we could use are [19] and [20]. DinDraithou (talk) 21:58, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I just found the second article,[21] but no luck with the first, which is an important article in scholarship. DinDraithou (talk) 22:16, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I had a brief look, but I don't think I came up with anything useful that you don't seem to have digged through already. Best regards, Finn Rindahl (talk) 00:12, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

So I think the article could do with a discussion of the title Jarl. I don't like it that this redirects to Earl. If you look at Petty kingdoms of Norway and do a quick Google search you'll find that in the earlier period the meaning was really sovereign prince/petty king. I don't have a source for this but it looks to me like the Norse of the Isles, Man, and Ireland preserved the older meaning. First we have the early 10th century examples of Ottir Iarla and Tomrair mac Ailchi, who obviously belonged to princely families. The former may have become a deputy of Ragnall but that wasn't so hard at the time because Ragnall was basically a regional emperor. And we have the CGG account describing Ottir as a king, almost certainly the chief leader of the unnamed Norse of Waterford before Ragnall's arrival. O Corrain I believe is in agreement.

In the 12th century we find this family, the MacOttars, probably descendants of Ottir Iarla (shame we can't say it), styling themselves jarls obviously in a family tradition. That they were regarded as princely seems proven to me because the Dubliners, who didn't care for just anybody, thought so. Mac Ottar of Dublin was a prince already. The Manx accounts are confusing but I don't buy that Jarl Ottar (died 1098) was straight from Norway. We're looking at a petty king here. DinDraithou (talk) 03:17, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree, titles change meaning over time, basileus indicated a type of petty baron in Mycenaean times, it eventually meant 'emperor' in the Roman period. There is also the description of Ottar of Dublin's son Thorfin as a "princeps" in the Latin original. Regarding Ottar of Man, I personally think that he was probably leading the native Norse of Man in rebellion against the 'governor' of an Irish overlord - Domnall mac Taidc Ua Briain the nephew of Muirchertach Ua Briain is recorded as King of Man at the time. Ottar's Norse name makes a striking contrast to the Gaelic name of his enemy (Macmaras or MacManus), also Macmaras' control of the Peel area, traditionally the seat of government, supports this view.Urselius (talk) 09:22, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

That does sound pretty good. The family's domains were also evidently not restricted to Man and so we could be looking at the confused descendants of some account of Ottar trying to protect his interests or gain new ones, taking advantage of Magnus' ambitions or perhaps inspiring/assisting his arrival on the island. Princeps I'm a little bit worried about relying on because it was once widely used, but at the same time the meaning never really changed to my knowledge. Philip O'Sullivan Beare uses it to refer to the heads of a number of Gaelic families during the Nine Years' War, in several cases as much referring to their lineage as to their sovereignty at the time. (Sovereign) prince of course just refers to a modern petty king, which several among them were in fact still, even if their overkings were changing by the minute and some had very little room in which to maneuver apart from changing allegiance. It seems the Ottarssons actually had a fair amount. DinDraithou (talk) 16:50, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

We could use the following by Donnchadh Ó Corráin. "The Semantic Development of Old Norse jarl in Old and Middle Irish", in James E. Knirk (ed.), Proceedings of the Tenth Viking Congress, Larkollen, Norway, 1985. Universitetets Oldsaksamlings Skrifter, ny rekke, 9. Oslo: Universitetets Oldsaksamling. 1987. pp. 287-93. DinDraithou (talk) 00:35, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

I'll have a look for the paper, and others, from work tomorrow - I get easier access to some stuff from a university computer. Best wishes for the New Year.Urselius (talk) 20:10, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Sounds great. I forgot to mention that Ottir Iarla is regarded by foremost scholars as the founder of Waterford. I don't know how I missed it before. So his article awaits significant changes and expansion and then a passage will have to be devoted to him in the main article for the city. DinDraithou (talk) 20:22, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Sorry no joy on the proceedings paper through the library. BTW have you seen this old French book "Histoire d'Ottar Jarl": http://www.archive.org/details/histoiredottarj00gobigoog Urselius (talk) 12:02, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

That's an incredible find and we may be looking at a colossal biography. First of all it strikes me that he may have been getting near retirement age when he founded Waterford and soon after followed Ragnall to northern Britain. Then we have the suggestion that his family might have belonged to the Ynglings (p. 15), presumably some cadet branch. I hadn't made the connection with the name before but it looks like Ohthere belonged to them himself, called the Scylfings in his case. Names are important so I think we can go ahead and assume some ultimately Swedish royal lineage in the family's background, whether male or female line. Importantly Óttar Vendelkråka is believed to be historical.

I am not the best writer of biographies. Would you like to take this one over? Ottar (died 918) was a superstar and my prose won't do him justice. I do better with the difficult cases where I get to rely on the annals and have fun with the marriages and issue. So I created this article but I'm not suited to write it. How good is your French? I know just enough to more or less follow that but not enough to translate carefully. I have some primary and secondary sources to add to the references section, which I think I'll restrict myself to from now on except for smallish edits. Your biographies are first class and you are more than likely descended from this person.

Let me know if you can get Jene Young's paper (their site is down at the moment), since I can request it in the Resource exchange and probably get it eventually that way. I already know most of what's in it but it might still be useful. I plan to redo the references section for the Cotter family into primary vs secondary and so on in any case. DinDraithou (talk) 19:43, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

This] article by Downham might be of interest if your looking into the origins of Waterford. Keep up the good work, best regards Finn Rindahl (talk) 20:50, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I've seen that early paper and used it for Ivar of Waterford. Strangely she manages to not mention Ottar at all and can only speak of the Ui Imair. But in her book published three years later she credits the "Jarl Ottar" as the founder coming from south Britain. O Corrain had already done so in one of his papers but like her failed to mention his name. This is a practice in some new scholarship and intended to dismiss a person or group as being of minor importance in comparison with the intended main subject. But such a dismissal is hardly supported by Ottar's portrayal in the CGG and our other primary sources. This is just a feature, "affected disdain", of some scholarship since the 1970s, especially post-nationalist medieval Irish. DinDraithou (talk) 21:25, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Tigerna

Good day DinDraithou.

I just want to mention that I thought that article you started there (Tigerna) was an excellent idea... Wikipedia suffers from a shortage these Irish history related articles and I respect your efforts.Inchiquin (talk) 11:37, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Thank you very much. It's probably one of my last articles before I attempt to rejoin humanity, or engage it properly for the first time, in 2011. My failed attempts in the past and history of extreme drunkenness have given me a special understanding of the Irish, living for so long at the edge of the world. I love gruesome battles and have enjoyed your writings too. DinDraithou (talk) 21:12, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it is probably for the best... health professionals advise against mixing Wikipedia and alchohol... even on their own each can lead to much embarrassing bad behaviour by the user. Have a good new year break Inchiquin (talk) 08:17, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. Enjoy yours too. Normally I do alright and behave the worst the next morning when I go online hungover, waiting for my coffee. I'll be staying around for a few months to work on the articles I've already created and contributed to. So I can do that I have to resist the temptation to create any more new ones. DinDraithou (talk) 18:03, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

ua / Ua

Posting here instead at the article talk page since it is a general point not limited to the kindred of Ivar, and since posting here gives me an opportunity to say "Happy new year!" Are you sure about this (the part with Ua denoting "descendant of"? I was under the impression that uppercase U denotes that the name has passed from a patronymic to a surname - of course, that implies descendant of in a wider sense but still... Best, Finn Rindahl (talk) 18:30, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Happy 2011! I've followed your suggestion there. We're undoubtedly looking at the surname in several cases in that pedigree and for some we even find it in the annals, but I wanted to make it as regular as possible. Limerick is the only one, although you might disagree, who I thought could use Ua hÍmair, which is what Ní Mhaonaigh makes him. In the CGG he's ua Ímair and in the Mac Firbis text ua hÍmair, but in both cases Ua should obviously be capitalized. I haven't seen Ó Cróinín's discussion of the issue in his Early Medieval Ireland, that Angus cites in several articles. DinDraithou (talk) 19:48, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Finn, the Uí Ímair are looking nice for the very first time. I need praise. Where are you? Amazingly that dynasty have no proper descendants and yet they still manage to look incredible. DinDraithou (talk) 06:19, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Do you think I could have done better with the pedigree? At least most of the Gaelic forms are attested. Sure I've reconstructed a few but I don't think this is going too far. Do you think the titles of those who held them should be added? I still deserve a little praise, I think, at least for trying. DinDraithou (talk) 18:55, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Overdue praise coming up, you've done a lot of good work on that article! I didn't notice your comments here until now... In due time I'd try to read the article with your additions properly, and perhaps add some bits and pieces about their historical significance in the 10th century. All the best, Finn Rindahl (talk) 14:20, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! Please do add to it. It certainly needs sections to come before Later Waterford and Limerick. 1) Origins. 2) Imperium: 2.1) Dublin. 2.2) Scotland. 2.3) The Gaelic Seas. 2.4) Northumbria. 2.5) Decline. Some arrangement like that. All I've done is the pedigree and try to finish off the discussion of the possible later history of the dynasty. Most of the article remains to be written. DinDraithou (talk) 18:53, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

O'Neill

Please, I need your support. User:ErrantX is complaining on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Biography and he has also reverted my adding of a source he required as if it was nothing. Whenever I cannot check these articles, I ask you please to do it for me. Thank you. HRO'Neill (talk) 20:53, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

I will be happy to. There will be some editors who don't understand that you are adding nothing out of the ordinary for a family of major importance. DinDraithou (talk) 21:03, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

O'Donovans of Southwest Ireland

Some years ago, when I started my own research and education on O'Donovan history, I received an e-mail from one of the other O'Donovan lines. It was concise: "Beware the sword". That e-mail was the topic of a number of conversations, I'll say. In any event, of the various O'Donovan researchers out there, it is well known that some hold their views quite dearly. My family, and a number of other familes, are adamant that they did not migrate into the southwest Cork area after 1250. There are a number of assertions over the years that many of the O'Donovans of Cork are of the Corca Laidhe, which is a dastardly form of heresy among many O'Donovans. As for public reproach, see http://donovanites.org/Gen/Dono_Gene_Memoir.html.

If you want an article on a conspiracy theory, the history of John O'Donovan's research and conclusions, his diligent efforts to insert himself into the "senior" line, and his deliberate exclusion of known significant O'Donovan families in his "exhaustive" research would provide excellent material and underscore your point about publicly raising this issue (again). But the issue has been bandied about for more than 140 years, and it's gone nowhere. Nobody gets to see the actual manuscripts that still exist. Every generation, descendents learn their history, and then tilt at each other, and it goes nowhere. And, some tilt harder than others, which is why I received that e-mail.

It may be that DNA testing would provide the most interesting data as to migration patterns and the location of the various septs over the centuries. Without a scientific basis, though, we are just whistling in the wind.

I do appreciate your various offfers of additional information, and there is enough mystery surrounding the absence of why the O'Donovan's are left out of the Annals as to cause one to wonder. For myself, and touching on one of your points, I always thought it was interesting that, without any apparent basis, the forces of the Anglo-English and Irish formed a temporary alliance and combined to go after Amlaib in 1201. That being said, I suppose there is still much to continue to research. Modonovan (talk) 10:02, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

If you look at his article again, you'll see that the O'Donovans may have been attempting to reassert or maintain some regional royal power, as he was probably the leader of an alliance against the King of Desmond in 1200, the year before he was slain by the other major players. The way the 1201 entries are written could suggest he was operating to some degree independently once the year before is reviewed, assuming the 1200 entry is correctly placed. It may or may not be. See also Croom Castle for some possible activity of a relative of his, Dermot O'Donovan, around the same time.

I'm very sorry you were threatened. You don't seem to be this, but what someone probably thought they were doing was protecting the princes from a self-styled claimant or impostor trying to build himself a lineage from their pedigrees. That's basically what the author of that treatise was doing and as you've said what John O'Donovan attempted himself. This even made it into the first edition of D'Alton. From the Clancahill perspective they are in fact the princes and are able to prove their ancestors were the last inaugurated and most powerful dynasts of the greater family in Early Modern times. I can see in Ellis that there were other interesting claimants well into the 20th century, who imagined themselves descendants of Donal IV, whom they called "Hugh Og". Finally there are or were a family who made it into Burke's claiming themselves to be descendants of Donal II's second known son Conogher.[22] Obviously the pedigree is no good but it's much harder to blame "foreigners" for this sort of thing. I don't know yours or those of any of the northern septs and think it very unfortunate that John O'Donovan ignored you.

I'm not worried myself. The family are very fortunate to have me doing all of this. Ellis did not research them well so his coverage is a mess. Curley, well meaning but not an expert, has almost nothing at all to say about the family who of all the Munster septs he covers were the strongest in the 17th century after the O'Briens. Once the MacCarthys and all others are considered, the O'Donovans still come in only third, tied with or a little ahead of the O'Sullivans both all put together. No one mentions any of this, mainly because the Eóganachta are now such a basket case the only thing that matters in their world is descent from the ancient kings of Cashel. So what I've been doing is showing that the O'Donovans are a special case, and also making obvious that the head of the family remains to this day more or less some kind of prince (sovereign of all of 200 acres now, I read, but still). In his 1690 Carberiae Notitia, which I now have referenced in the lead, Sir Richard Cox says "of royal extraction". So the title will remain sought after.

That one or another Carbery septs might only be O'Donovans in the female line is just silly speculation of mine and based on the Scottish clan model. There is even a chance that some could be proper descendants of the Uí Ímair of Waterford (if not in exactly the manner periodically claimed), who instead of being extinguished like their family in Limerick and eventually Dublin may have lingered on as petty lords until the Norman invasion. Reginald's Tower and so on. Ragnall was their favourite name, and while eventually used by other families in Ireland it appears to have been by far the favourite of the Carbery O'Donovans in Munster. No other source presents itself and so Ragnall obviously comes from Waterford, with which the "original" O'Donovan family could very well have maintained contact from the 10th century. Looking at a map the journey from there to Glandore looks easy. The first known Ragnall in the surviving pedigrees, whom Mac Firbis or Collins or both have something to say about, would have lived circa 1200 when the family are first reported near later Carbery, although the name could have been in use long before then. Either Mac Firbis, possibly in his smaller and later compilation, or Collins say this Ragnall is also the ancestor of the Mac Raghnaills of County Cork. Collins reports that either he or his descendant Ragnall II (Clancahill) was someone notable. All put together, "Ragnall" looks like some kind of event in the family, either that or a Norse family, related by marriage, assuming the O'Donovan name. But there would have to have been Limerick O'Donovans involved in the region, proved by the appearance of Amlaíb there. No one seems to know what to do about Ragnall's grandson Crom but comparing the entries in Mac Carthaigh's Book and the Annals of Inisfallen it becomes apparent that the early Carbery O'Donovans were widely understood to belong to or simply be the Uí Cairbre. So Ragnall is somewhat less likely to have been Norse himself unless he does not properly belong in the male line. Maternal grandfather? The pedigree found by O'Clery does not include him, but this of course could be an error since the others do. It looks like the Keating pedigree of Clancahill fails to include Ragnall II, perhaps suggesting, noting O'Clery, that there was confusion in the family by that time concerning the Ragnalls. Add to this the Sliocht Ímair, possibly at some point grafted on, and Clancahill looks like a nice genealogical mess, as deeply involved with the Norse-Irish as Donovan was over two centuries before, even if the central line still are likely to be Gaels in the male line comparing AI and MCB. This rules out the Corcu Loígde, btw. Crom's family could have been seven eighths Norse-Irish but they were still officially regarded as belonging to the Uí Cairbre. DinDraithou (talk) 16:54, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Concerning the presence of the family in the annals and its condition from the 10th through 15th centuries, I've made some mistakes that I have to go around and correct, especially in the main article. I hadn't compared the Annals of Inisfallen with Mac Carthaigh's Book and didn't realize that as far as the press were concerned the O'Donovans were the Uí Cairbre, but had as their king the MacCarthy Reagh from the 13th century. So while locally the O'Donovan was a petty king with his wand, his realm was not extensive. Outside of Carbery he and his sept were only seen as vassals of the MacCarthy Reagh for three centuries. Once realized, all those references in the 13th and into the 14th century to "MacCarthy and the Uí Cairbre" can be understood. The Munster annals all but cease in the 14th century for everyone because they haven't survived, so the northern annals, barely covering Munster affairs at all, are turned to, and these unsurprisingly offer nothing. But, the O'Donovans do appear in Anglo-Norman documents and church records, which I have not been able to study. Ó Murchadha mentions some of these. So I was imagining this great gap of two to three centuries which does not exist. The only gap you suffer is earlier, the 11th and 12th centuries, where you appear in two major political epics but amazingly don't in the annals. The O'Briens had control. DinDraithou (talk) 20:24, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

News link

Hi, thought this would interest you. [23] Regards, MarmadukePercy (talk) 02:07, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, Marmaduke! That is interesting. I've somewhere come across the information that the Icelanders have a fair amount of Gael in them, even some paternal lineages, according to genetic studies. The so-called Norse-Gaelic phenomenon developed quite early and so Iceland's first Norse settlers probably included some Gaelic elements. The general publics in Iceland, Scotland, Norway and Ireland aren't aware of the once surprising amount of intermarriage between the two ethnic populations, knowing only of the Irish priests and later some slaves from Scotland.

That said, this is still a nice find. But it's a shame they don't get that the western "Scots" of this period were predominantly Irish colonists. Both the Dál Riata and Uí Néill were active in the region. Surely the Ulaid and Cruthin were too. Even distant Munster had some influence. There was little or nothing at all coming from the Pictish direction! DinDraithou (talk) 23:37, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Max Mosley

Hi. There has been an argument over the article on Max Mosley, son of the 6th Baronet Mosley, over something so simple as whether if we should include the name of his parents in law, or father in law, and information on his own children. They even claim he's not nobility. It's a false question, but some people, from outside lineages' issues, insists in not adding them. The discussion was brought up by User:4u1e on User talk:Konakonian, Talk:Max Mosley and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography. I'd thank you that you'd join with your good judgement. Konakonian (talk) at 195.245.149.70 (talk) 17:34, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Hey Ed Boy

You've got a "serious" email from me, complete with offensive language relating to this block for fucking nothing. So I disregarded you and you couldn't stand it? You're no better than Deacon and are from now on unwelcome in my space (wherever). You've done a pretty bad job. DinDraithou (talk) 07:40, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

A little time has past and I find myself still angry with you, Ed. First of all, I'm primarily an article content contributor and thus belong to the large team of people whom the system in which you work is designed for. You're supposed to be working for me, but seem to have forgotten that and think having administrator privileges makes you something better than an article contributor and creator. I'm approaching a hundred creations since 2009 while you since 2006 have created all of two articles and made a limited contribution to existing ones.

So here some fellow admin comes along, Deacon, with a pretty ridiculous case, and you decide to block me not because there was a case, but because you got the impression I don't have any fear of administrators, which is right. The truth is that a fair number of you are nonentities working in a system designed to serve the serious content people like me produce, so you're either a convenience or an inconvenience. When you're the latter is when you've come to believe you belong to some sort of superior class with the power to block or ban, using tools you are entrusted with to keep the trash out of the project against the very sort of contributors they are designed to protect.

You clearly forgot your place. The talk page debate was partisan, with me and the sources on one side and Deacon on the other. Then enters some strange character with no knowledge of the subject whatsoever, reverting my removal of bad information the article was offering to the world, and Deacon takes advantage of the unread person's interesting "warnings" to try to get me blocked. Finally, after several tries over the past months, he succeeds with some lucky content-disregarding sysop, namely you, and no doubt feels pleased with himself. I should have known I was in trouble when you said the conflict was "esoteric".

Thankfully I'm not really damaged. Looking at the article, it would appear that Cnut the Great#Overlordship outside his kingdoms is as I left it, complete with the appropriate tag I added, which means the majority of content contributors agree with my editing decisions, which you should have respected. You forgot you work for me around here in your role as an administrator. DinDraithou (talk) 19:19, 10 February 2011 (UTC)