User talk:Gladys j cortez/Archive8
On the blankness of my talk page
[edit]The recent changes to the culture of this site have led me to question whether I wish to be a part of it anymore. Sometimes it is possible to do the right thing in the wrongest possible way; having proven this point, and emboldened by ArbCom's "unbiased" motion, the admins involved in the mass-deletions continue to show unmitigated disdain for every editor who questions either their philosophy or their methods. In the Wikipedia I joined, this would not have been allowed to stand; however, obviously the site has changed since then. The question thus remains: do I wish to align myself with a site such as this has become? To be honest, I'm leaning toward "no"; however, since once I leave I will not be returning, I want to consider my decision before acting on it. My editing will most likely be sporadic at best until such time as I reach my final conclusion.
GJC 07:26, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
- I understand how you feel. Wander by my talk page, or shoot me an e-mail.--Tznkai (talk) 07:40, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
- This is a good time to remind you of your own words from 2008. In a sense, isn't this a restatement of the foundation for much of what you've been doing as you invested time and thought in our Wikipedia project?
- Do you remember writing this?
- "I still think that verifiability is more important than consensus, and here's why. If you look at some of our most-contentious articles, you will find that on each side, there are people who are passionate (some seemingly to the point of unreasonability!) about their given topic. Each of those people knows other people who are equally passionate on that topic. Each of those people could conceivably recruit those others to come to WP and contribute their own passion to the "consensus". Eventually, it becomes a numbers game--who can win more people over to their side? Who can recruit the biggest, most verbally-skilled army? And thus, consensus can be manipulated."
"Verifiability, on the other hand, as WP uses it, is a reasonably-static construct. Either there is, or there is not, substantive coverage in third-party reliable sources. It's like being pregnant; there's no such thing as "a little bit verifiable". A fact either IS covered verifiably, or it is NOT. (The questions then come up re: what constitutes a reliable source; this is verifiability's weak spot, actually, and represents one of the few ways it can be gamed, which is why we have the Reliable Sources Noticeboard--and at least part of why we have admins, IMHO. If we can't be counted on to enforce such a core policy, then what the heck are we doing holding this mop?)"
"It's impossible to base a factual item such as an encyclopedia on a construct that owes so much to the mood of the moment--the current trends in science, politics, culture, and the attitudes and opinions which people bring to those areas. Consensus is like the sand, and will shift over time; verifiability, on the other hand, is the bedrock, and is the only solid place to build from."
- "I still think that verifiability is more important than consensus, and here's why. If you look at some of our most-contentious articles, you will find that on each side, there are people who are passionate (some seemingly to the point of unreasonability!) about their given topic. Each of those people knows other people who are equally passionate on that topic. Each of those people could conceivably recruit those others to come to WP and contribute their own passion to the "consensus". Eventually, it becomes a numbers game--who can win more people over to their side? Who can recruit the biggest, most verbally-skilled army? And thus, consensus can be manipulated."
- Do you remember writing this?
- This text is the underlying reason for my temerity in starting the "Mentorship" thread below. --Tenmei (talk) 06:55, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
- NO!!!! Dude, I only just came back! - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 03:19, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Not going to undo your admin action, but...
[edit]Someone wise once said: "Sometimes it is possible to do the right thing in the wrongest possible way". When you unblocked MickMacNee, did you check his talk page? The unblock request was on hold and being reviewed. Did you check with the blocking admin before you unblocked? Did you participate in any of the discussions? Did you even leave a note for the person you unblocked? Ultimately, MMN would have been unblocked, but they way you've done it is pretty crappy. AniMate 05:20, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, I think Prodego's indefinite block followed by a "I'll think about it for a day or two" was game-playing at its worst. It left a very sour taste in my mouth to see such a thing, though I'll leave open the possibility that I'm simply reading too much into Prodego's actions. --MZMcBride (talk) 06:33, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/Minnesota_salads.jpg/220px-Minnesota_salads.jpg)
Good news! I finally got my hands on photos of Cookie salad, Glorified rice, and Strawberry Delight. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:32, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
Mentorship
[edit]The focus on unintended consequences would seem to be timely in view of the comments you've emphasized in bold font at the top of this page.
I invite you to take a look at an old edit at Wikipedia:Mentorship#Unintended consequences? In the search for a mentor deemed acceptable by ArbCom, I cite this as a arguably useful context for discussing what I have in mind.
It is timely for me to wonder if you might consider joining others in a mentorship committee for me? Will you permit me to explain more?
When you became an administrator, reason informed my support here. I'd like to remind you of the context established by my question and your response at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Gladys j cortez#Questions for the candidate. In October 2008, you construed my words as "a heck of a good question" here. For your convenience, I re-paste that excerpt here:
Responding to The Lady or the Tiger dilemma
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Optional questions from Asenine
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I reach out today, in part, because of the "teachable moment" which failed to develop here and here for reasons beyond our ability to foresee here. In the months since I created an article about the Teachable moment, the topic has taken on an unanticipated personal relevance.
I have also sent you an e-mail. Please contact me by e-mail or on my talk page --Tenmei (talk) 19:23, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
- Ping: I understand your uncertainty. Please consider contacting me by e-mail. I hope for an opportunity to find a way to work with you in a mentorship group, at least during the initial start-up phase. --Tenmei (talk) 04:44, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
ArbCom clerks' noticeboard
Is this something you need to know? Your name not is included in a new posting at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Clerks Noticeboard#Discussion/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Tang Dynasty? As for what happens next, we'll see? Why can't I continue to wish for you to be part of this select group? Arguably, I'm asking for less than you imagine in the short term.
Yes -- I do understand what "no" means; and yet, an undeterred sense of hope remains optimistic, open-ended, questioning. --Tenmei (talk) 18:12, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
How mentoring will work?
[edit]Roger Davies seeks more information from the mentors about how mentoring will work. Perhaps this evidence of thinking-through-the-problem will help persuade you to re-think your reluctance to participate in my mentors group?
I hope these words will help "prime" the pump. I believe that what can be done in pre-planning has been accomplished. We will be figuring it out together as the future unfolds. A restatement is straightforward:
- An initial editing strategy based on a theory of wiki-pacifism was suggested by the userpage of Leujohn in Hong Kong.
- Fasten in Germany suggested that I tentatively adopt pacifist tactics as an experiment derived from salutary premises which I posted at Wikipedia:Mentorship#Unanticipated Consequences, especially the words of a famous German:
- We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. — Albert Einstein
In the absence of any better alternative, I agreed; however, a willingness to experiment with a novel tactic represents only a superficial change. This is useful as an exploratory gambit, but not transformative. I am not persuaded that pacifist action is workable even in this experimental approach, but we'll see.
The Latin axiom qui tacet consentire videtur is mirrored in WP:Silence + WP:Consensus. In our wiki-context, I would like to find a way to construe pacifist non-confrontation ≠ WP:Silence. In resolving these seeming contradictions, the mentors' points-of-view are essential. Together we will discover otherwise unrecognized alternatives.
In the context of this specific issue, Xavexgoem has agreed to be a non-public mentor. "Finding of facts" in the decision at Tang Dynasty encompassed User talk:Xavexgoem/archive5#Seeking help in presenting thoughts clearly. Xavexgoem's experience in mediation will help remedy an arguable deficit in the composition of our small group. Core policies are the tools at hand; and Xavexgoem agreed to help connect the dots in hopes that it could benefit more than me.
Does this help you make better guesses about how mentorship will work? If you continue to be disinterested in a role in the cohort of ArbCom-approved "public mentors," perhaps you might be willing or able to be a non-public mentor/advisor dealing with specific or episodic issues only? --Tenmei (talk) 20:34, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
Ping
[edit]I have sent you an e-mail. ArbCom wants comments -- prospective mentors? --Tenmei (talk) 05:38, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
Mentorship
[edit]GJC -- At best, this enquiry will serve as a tipping point which causes you to re-visit your thinking about leaving Wikipedia.
At worst, you will never read this because your decision-making is already concluded; and this becomes the sound of one hand clapping.
The topic needing resolution is something to do with organizing? or structural planning?
This is a draft effort to use graphics as a tool in crafting a non-verbose response to Carcharoth's diffs here and here.
Please help me improve this with constructive criticism. What I construe as Carcharoth's main points are highlighted in yellow.
I plan to post the following in an ArbCom thread. Can it be made clearer? shorter? better?
If you please, I hope you will help resolve this situation by making a thoughtful comment at active ArbCom thread.
Arbitrator views and discussion -- Carcharoth's diffs
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Note: The text highlighted in beige is already posted in the thread.
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GOOD — yes, of course
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"...please be patient and wait for other arbitrators and those willing to mentor you to respond here. I realise it must be frustrating for you, but if you wait just a little bit longer and let others speak" Carcharoth
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- Hypotheticals
In theory, it is not unreasonable to ask hypothetical questions; but in practice, the attempt can easily devolve into a time sink.
Illustrating the point with a timely issue: Is there a constructive value in examining failures attributable to ArbCom — serial incidents in which ArbCom snatched defeat from the jaws of victory?
Can you suggest a better way to solicit your help in a specific context? --Tenmei (talk) 18:53, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
A random passerby says...
[edit]This was fun, thanks for posting it! Mackan79 (talk) 07:09, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
- Aha, yes -- arguably this was fun, but it was also serious. The American idioms are dense, difficult to parse, relentless -- but wasn't that the point of a carefully crafted text in which the medium is the message? For my part, I'm very glad that Mackan79 underscored the gravamen by linking it here. Otherwise, I would have been likely to miss it.
- Aan implicit aspect of GJC's nuanced analysis was at once novel, insightful, gratifying, refreshing and timely:
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- This text becomes another of the underlying reasons for my persisting efforts to invite GJC's interest in the plausibly off-putting "Mentorship" thread above. --Tenmei (talk) 19:10, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Does Plaxico have a brother who writes sonnets, I wonder?
[edit]Best edit summary ever. PhGustaf (talk) 18:17, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- I was going to give you barnstar for that message, but not sure which one though: the Socratic one, the one for good humor, or the one for random acts of kindness. Feel free to choose. PR has indeed departed from this project by his won Clockwork Orange-like actions. That's life, and it is somewhat sad, but the total amount of time wasted by others on him with little return is probably even more so. Pcap ping 02:01, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
RfC/User on PCPP
[edit]Hello. Please be aware that I have opened an RfC about the conduct of PCPP (talk · contribs).--Asdfg12345 01:13, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
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