User talk:Ish ishwar/2007talkpage

2007 archived talk page

Algic

Hello, I'm not an expert in Algic languages, but why has Paul Proulx's name been omitted? Is he considered an outsider in the field of Algic studies? If so, why? --Pet'usek ^{[petrdothrubisatgmaildotcom]} 12:45, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi. No reason, I guess. It just seems like the article is not very developed. – ishwar  (speak) 14:31, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Kurów

Could you please write an article about Kurów on Klallam language here ( http://kurow-wiki.openhosting.pl/wiki/clm:Kurow ) – just a few sentences based on http://kurow-wiki.openhosting.pl/wiki/en:Kurow ? Only 3-5 sentences enough. Please.

PS. Article about Kurów is already on 242 languages and dialects. If your village/town/city isn't yet on PL Wikipedia, I can do article about it. Pietras1988 (talk) 08:58, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Vietnamese nouns

Hi, thanks for your updates to the Vietnamese language article. I have some suggestions on how to improve the "Noun and Noun Phrases" section:

• Use a different name than "Nam", such as Mai (a female name) to reduce confusion, because "Nam" also means "male" and thus "nam sinh viên" can mean "male student".
• Isn't "cao" (tall) an adjective? Why not use a word that is indisputably a verb such as "đi" (go), "chạy" (run), or "nhảy" (jump)?

Thanks! Keep up the good work. DHN (talk) 17:20, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi.

nam is a different word from Nam so the example still works. But, if you think it confuses anyone, you can replace the subject Nam with another noun.

Words like cao, khôn (clever) are often considered stative or adjectival verbs since they can act as predicators just like other non-stative verbs like bay (fly), nói (speak). This clearly sets them apart from other words like Mai, Nam, bò (cow), which cant act as predicators by themselves.

But you are right that some authors have used the label "adjective" to refer to words like cao, khôn. I dont like this analysis because the term adjective is usually defined as words that can function attributively but not predicatively. An attributive function means modifying a noun and attributing some state/quality to it. Thus, we can see a difference between English, which has words that fit this definition of adjective, and Vietnamese & Lakhota, which dont. The absence or rarity of adjectives is fairly common across languages.

We could redefine the term adjective to mean one thing in languages like English and a different thing in languages like Vietnamese or we could define our word classes according to semantics. The problem with the first approach is that it is confusing to use the same term to mean different things (although obviously some authors do this). The problem with the semantically based definition is that semantic criteria are generally not very reliable in defining word classes which are better defined according to syntactic (where it occurs in the sentence) and/or morphological (what kind of suffixes, etc. can added to it) criteria. Using morpho-syntactic criteria for defining word classes is the most common approach in modern grammatical analyses (as opposed to "traditional" grammars) and is the one taught in introductory linguistics textbooks. A third reason for not using the term adjective for Vietnamese is pedagogical: if an English speaker naively equates cao with the English adjective tall, then an ungrammatical Vietnamese construction (like Mai là cao) will result.

Anyway, that's why I would prefer to call them verbs (following Nguyễn Đình-Hoà's 1997 grammar as opposed to less scholarly stuff like Tuan Duc Vuong & John Moore's Colloquial Vietnamese). But, of course, I wouldnt suggest that we shouldnt mention that these words are sometimes called adjective because they obviously are and this difference in terminology may be confusing to some people. – ishwar  (speak) 22:18, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

-ase

Please explain why you keep changing it to a redirect to enzyme, this spoiling the uniformity of the pages named after organic chemistry terminology suffixes. Anthony Appleyard 23:06, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Because this is not an encyclopedia topic, but rather wiktionary material on an English suffix. I followed the recommendation of an editor-voter on the previous deletion request to make -ase a redirect. All the organic chemistry terminology suffixes are not encyclopedia topics and should be moved to the wiktionary project. If it's desired that they be grouped together, then you can do so with an appropriate category on each suffixes wiktionary page. This grouping together to elements in a language that are related to particular topical domain is a common feature of many dictionaries: the linking of elements is known as semantic domains or thematic domain and dictionaries that organized by only semantic domains are called topical dictionaries. This is common in many dictionaries with a pedagogical focus. The connecting of words or other elements is a property of dictionaries not encyclopedias. – ishwar  (speak) 19:22, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Zuni

First, vowel length does not always translate to spelling. The vowel length in this case is accentuated and denoted by a mark for a glottal stop. I converse with Zuni nearly everyday and I ask them these things. They spell it 'A shiwi'.

As far as "referring to one of the unpublished dissertations on Zuni grammar? Which one are you talking about?" How I am supposed to know? I'm not the one using the spelling, so where was it used? That is the question. Authoritative publications spell it as the Zuni have used it, thus the incorrect spelling gives different references.

As for ""more definitive and authoritative" than Newman's grammar is needed", Newman was an authority. He wrote the Zuni dictionary. Is there a source more authoritative on this point than him? That should clarify the point of your misunderstanding. Was it spelled with the double 'a' in a single publication, or are there many? I do not remember finding the spelling in any source, including Newman. Does Tedlock spell it this way?, and if he does, does it reflect some suppositions in his work that one may perceive as references to possible origins of the Zuni language. Thanks. Amerindianarts 01:11, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I think the point I was trying to make is that there is a common textual spelling of the word, especially in English conveyance, and to spell it with a double 'a' is an endorsement of a particular method, and is not very Wiki, unless it is Wikified by sourcing. Thanks again. 74.142.55.239 01:37, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi.

Vowel length is not always represented in the spelling? So, is the representation of vowel length predictable (i.e., can we identify when vowel length is indicated and when it is not)? Can you cite a source for current orthographic practices (like a textbook or other pedagogical material — either published or not)?

What exactly is the relationship between the glottal stop and vowel?

The long vowel in the aa(w)- prefix is indicated in all of Newman's work. So, we should indicate the vowel as long in a discussion of the Zuni language. If Zuni orthography does not indicate long vowels, we should note this but not at the expense of a description of Zuni sound structures. My misunderstanding is of your comments (which were contradictory). Long vowels are indicated with a length mark by Newman and with letter doubling by Tedlock. It doesnt really matter which is used to indicate vowel length, we just need to use something. I choose Tedlock's spelling because it is more recent and presumably more similar to current Zuni writing practices (which may, of course, be an incorrect assumption). I dont understand your comment about Tedlock's use of letter doubling to indicate vowel length as being related to anything about language origin. However a Zuni word may be transliterated into English (with loss of vowel length) is not really relevant to a description of Zuni. We wouldnt, for example, want to write the Chiricahua word Chʼúúkʼanén in a description of the Chiricahua language as it is sometimes spelled in English as Chokonen since that English spelling does not accurately represent features of the Chiricahua sound systems (e.g., it does not indicate tone, vowel length, glottalized consonants and has the wrong vowels). – ishwar  (speak) 21:37, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

-phil-

You deleted the article -phil- out of process. I restored it. Whle I admit the rule be bold applies to admins as well, please don't do unilateral decisions about long-existing articles. There is no real hurry: it is not vandalism or joke or something else which may hurt repiutation of wikipedia. `'Míkka>t 22:32, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

I dont think I mentioned vandalism or joke or reputation, so I'm not sure what you mean.

The -phil- is obviously a list of words with the phil element within them. This is not an encyclopedia topic. It seems more appropriate to the wiktionary project. This information has already been moved to wiktionary, so there is no need for this page. – ishwar  (speak) 19:26, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Please stop that

Entries that already exist on Wiktionary don't need to be transwiki'ed. --Connel MacKenzie - wikt 21:10, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

please start that

some of those entries contain information that wiktionary lacks. Since (apparently) transwikiing is not the way to move lacking information between wikiprojects, I have copied the wikipedia page contents onto the discussion pages of corresponding or related wiktionary page entries. The extraction of any content suitable for wiktionary, I leave to wiktionary editors. – ishwar  (speak) 22:07, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Indigenous languages of the Americas

Why are the languages in the lists numbered? Aren't they just in alphabetical order? Or are the numbers somehow significant? Rmhermen 06:29, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

1. Hi. No significance at all, just easy to see how many total. You can replace # with *. – ishwar  (speak) 16:40, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Navajo Orthography

I wanted to ask whether you know if Navajo has or hasn't a letter <Ń ń> and if it does, what its phonetic value is. Some sources about Navajo mention this letter and others don't. The current article on Navajo language doesn't include any third nasal in its phoneme inventory. ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 07:51, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I'll respond there. – ishwar  (speak) 01:20, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

AAVE references

Thank you for your recent addition of references. They're all good: since the existing list of references contains at least one item that's utter garbage, they raised the average level. However, I reverted your edit, thus undoing most of your good work (not all, as it's still in the history). Here's why.

I didn't like doing this, as you're a linguist, and that article needs real linguists as opposed to underinformed people who are horribly certain of their misunderstandings about language. I hope that you take my reversion in the non-jerk spirit in which it was intended, and indeed that you contribute more to that article, which needs all the informed help it can get. -- Hoary, who is writing this while balancing on his right thigh a copy of Lyons's Definiteness (for an WP-unrelated purpose), 07:06, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok. I dont really see a point to making so many different lists of reference materials. In my view, you can simply have a biblio and then refer to which sources support which statements. Further reading sections are useful, but if it's just a list of material then it will probably overlap with the other (reference) list of materials. Wikipedia:Citing sources doesnt really make it clear why you need two lists. What I would do is have a biblio of all materials, then refer to all materials referenced in the article text. And if you want a further reading section, it would really be most helpful to tell readers why they would ever want to further-read any of that stuff (i.e., further reading wouldnt be a just, but rather a list annotated with summaries of the list items and/or why they are important). Anyway, I think those materials are important and if the reader is serious about learning this topic they will take a look at them or, at the least, be aware of them. Hopefully, editors of this article will take a look at them as well.

As for working on the article myself, I think I have other interests that are stronger (e.g., there's not even an article on American Indian English). I added those refs to the article because I was expanding the bibliography in American English, which is not much more representative of the expanse of research (even if no one consulted these for writing that article). I was moved to do this because a talk page comment asked about Latino English which is not mentioned in that article and because I like bibliographies. – ishwar  (speak) 01:20, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Zuni

Just wanna say that you're doing a good job with Zuni language. Keep it up. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 06:00, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

thanks for checking my transliteration from Americanist to IPA. glad you enjoy. peace – ishwar  (speak) 17:37, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Mandan

Mandan has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here.--Jayron32|talk|contribs 06:08, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

hi.

i only contributed to the language and synonymy sections, so i cant answer any questions about the other information. and i dont own any books about the Mandan or Plains people. – ishwar  (speak) 05:59, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Apache

Hi - FYI, another user has requested a "good article" review of the Apache article. The reviewer is one of the new "frantic footnoters" and wants references and in line citations before he will continue the review. Although I am obviously not a fan of the rating system and mentality, I will try and come up with some references for the material I originally entered. If you have time, it would be helpful if you would do the same. Thanks. WBardwin 20:05, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

hi. Well, i guess it doesnt matter now. Yes, they sometimes go overboard with with footnoting. There are many references at the bottom of the article & I believe that I've added all of the references that I consulted. Maybe the footnoters should indicate where they want footnotes? peace – ishwar  (speak) 19:34, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

North America

Please see the map at North America.

North America includes all of the Americas north of the South American continent -- basically everything north of and including Panama. To refer to the "Southwestern Cultural Region" may be the practice found in much of the literature, but it is very US-centric in that the area is actually to the Northeast of much of North America, including Mexico. Certainly, you won't find this terminology used in Spanish without the qualifier of "United States", or perhaps it will be referred to even as the "Northeastern" cultural area. --Node 09:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Please see the literature.

North America may be defined by different arbitrary conventions in different contexts. In Indian contexts, North America is defined as what is above Mesoamerica. I have no reason to assume that the Spanish literature will not reflect this terminology. (you dont have to speculate, just read some of the literature written in Spanish.) The terminology is standard (see, for example, The Handbook of North American Indians). peace – ishwar  (speak) 18:52, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

blacklisted

Hi. The co.nr domain is an URL redirection/URL shortener domain and can be used to bypass Wikipedia's spam filters. As a matter of standard procedure, such sites are routinely blacklisted.

You've got a number of links to http://www.freewebs.com/apache-texts that use the co.nr redirect instead the actual address. I've come across them on other wikipedias as I clean-up co.nr links prior to blacklisting. (Once blacklisted, you can't save edits to a page with one a blacklisted link).

Normally, I leave user pages alone, but since I knew the alternate address at freewebs.com, I went ahead and made the change for you. The links still point to the same material, just not via co.nr.

I did this for your convenience, however if you feel this was inappropriate, please let me know and I will revert my edits (it should be another several days before the blacklisting goes into effect). --A. B. ^(talk) 18:57, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

PS -- I appreciate all your linguistics work on Wikipedia. I could spend days reading linguistics articles here -- they're one of Wikipedia's strongest features.

Hi.

Ok, I dont that is on my user page anymore. I was just experimenting with that. Thanks for the information.

I'm glad you enjoy reading whatever I typed up. I probably should have been doing other things when I did all of that. – ishwar  (speak) 18:11, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Image:VoQS.png

Thanks for uploading Image:VoQS.png. I notice the 'image' page specifies that the image is being used under fair use, but its use in Wikipedia articles fails our first fair use criterion in that it illustrates a subject for which a freely licensed image could reasonably be found or created that provides substantially the same information. If you believe this image is not replaceable, please:

1. Go to the image description page and edit it to add {{Replaceable fair use disputed}}, without deleting the original Replaceable fair use template.
2. On the image discussion page, write the reason why this image is not replaceable at all.

Alternatively, you can also choose to replace the fair use image by finding a freely licensed image of its subject, requesting that the copyright holder release this (or a similar) image under a free license, or by taking a picture of it yourself.

If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified how these images fully satisfy our fair use criteria. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on this link. Note that fair use images which could be replaced by free-licensed alternatives will be deleted 7 days after this notification, per our Fair Use policy. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. —Angr 08:36, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

hi.

Well, ok. It is possible to create something based on their chart instead of just reproducing it. I thought it would be ok since it is not something that is readily available online (unlike their main chart and the extIPA). Using a scanned copy of it shows exactly what the authors intended, and that was my intention. I guess I dont exactly agree that it isnt appropriate fair-use, but it is possible to make a derivation of it so I cant really disagree with your justification for deletion. Thanks. – ishwar  (speak) 18:01, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

A bit more: If I were to reproduce the chart, I would need to rearrange the organization of it, wouldnt I? I'm not sure if I can find all of the symbols. Some of the symbols are from Cyrillic, but the denasalized voice uses a tilde with a slash through it, I dont think I can just type in a normal font. Do you know? – ishwar  (speak) 18:08, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

The tilde with the slash through it is available as a Combining Diacritical Mark at U+034A (its formal name is COMBINING NOT TILDE ABOVE). Some fonts that have it include Charis SIL, Code2000, Doulos SIL, Gentium, Junicode, and Tahoma (but not Arial Unicode MS, strangely enough). —Angr 19:22, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

References for IPA

Hi again Ish. International Phonetic Alphabet is currently up for FAC, but the section International Phonetic Alphabet#Other phonetic notation has no inline citations. Looking through the history, I see that you've added many of the references to the articles about IPA and APA—would you be able to point us in the direction of some resources we can cite, or, could you perhaps cite some relevant texts? I realize that you're busy, so any help you can get in edgewise would be really appreciated. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 23:46, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi. Most of that is really off-topic, dont you think? I'll move it to Phonetic transcription where it should, if it's not there already. What should remain is (1) VoQS, (2) canIPA, (3) ASCII transliterations. – ishwar  (speak) 15:49, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Dené-Caucasian languages

Hi Ish I have recently stumbled on the Dené-Caucasian languages article which seems to have been maintained by a few editors with out connection to the rest of wikipedia or mainstrea historical linguistics. I have tried to explain them that there is a viewpoint that doesn't accept this hypothesis as validly proven, and that the article could be conformed to NPOV by adding that viewpoint as well as those who accept the hypothesis. The article is also a mess in its formatting and referencing. I hoped that someone like you would come over and look at the page, and comment as well so they don't think I'm a lone mad editor who still hasn't seen the light of the Dené-Caucasian Superfamily.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 08:17, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi. Yes, I agree. I'll add this to my list of things to check out. Thanks. – ishwar  (speak) 15:42, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

wscla 12

Are you going to WSCLA 12? --Ling.Nut 19:43, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

hi. no. but, i'm going to: LSA Institute 2007. – ishwar  (speak) 19:00, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

San Carlos

Dagotʼéé ish ishwar, I am curious as to your source for the name "Sengaa" for San Carlos. Bray's Western Apache-English dictionary gives "Sangada", and that corresponds with what I have heard. Iinagodzin atʼéé :-) -Node 15:14, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

the source is:

* de Reuse, Willem J. (2006). A practical grammar of the San Carlos Apache language. LINCOM Studies in Native American Linguistics 51. LINCOM. ISBN 3-89586-861-2.

this is the way the San Carlos generally say it. The Sangada may be a White Mountain form. The Bray dictionary has errors as it was not written by linguists. But, it should be approximately that if that's what you hear. Anyway, since most San Carlos speakers actually live in San Carlos, I'd use their word for it if you choose a single form to represent Western Apache. – ishwar  (speak) 22:20, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Dagot'ee, I agree, although the preface says that all placenames were supplied by Dr. Basso. I was also wondering if you have any other native names for other Arizona (or other American) places whose articles don't already have them besides Mohave, which I have and am planning to add to certain articles. --Node 04:41, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Requesting help for Mayan languages

We are currently nominating Mayan languages for featured article status and we can use help both to suggest improvements and to actually introduce them in the article. Maybe you would be so kind as to read the article and maybe change the things that you find criticizable or alternatively just comment at the Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Mayan languages·Maunus· ·ƛ· 17:43, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi. Ok, I'll have a look. It seems to be one of the better language pages.

At a quick glance, I notice that there is much less "anthropological" type information (e.g. speech styles, ethnography of communication, speech community attitudes). I see that some of this is promised here: Mesoamerican literature#Oral Literatures. A lot of good Wikipedia language articles lack this (including my own contributions to Wikipedia). For readers not interested in grammatical structure, this may be what they are most interested in. What about bilingualism? Any statistics on the endangered languages? – ishwar  (speak) 19:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I think that the anthropological stuff is better suited for pages on single languages (although I admit that it lacks for most language artivcles as well)- simply because it is difficult to characterize anthropology of language for an entire langauge family. I think the stratus of the endangered languages which aren't that many (mostly Lacandón and Itza') is covered in the overview section which tries to give the most current population figures for all the languages including endangered status and number of monolingual speakers where information is available. I do think that currently this article is the best one on wikipedia about a language family - although it can stillbecome much better. I have been thinking mysrelf that it needs a section on the history of classification and scholarship. Your comments, additions and corrections are greatly appreciated.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 19:27, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Alaska Native languages

Hey, thanks for your corrections to language infoboxes. I'm working pretty intensively on Alaska Native stuff right now, & created Category:Indigenous languages of Alaska yesterday (a geographic rather linguistic category), & have been working to make sure that each of the languages has at least a stub article with a language infobox, doing some cleanup along the way. But, I'm not a linguist, so your corrections are welcomed, as you seem to know quite a bit more about linguistics than I do. --Yksin 17:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi. That's good as there isnt much written about those peoples, unfortunately. I'm glad someone is doing this instead writing about TV show characters.

I removed those subfamilies because they are mostly geographic groupings and not true genetic subfamilies. However, if you read somewhere where comparative research seems to suggest a genetic subgrouping, then go ahead and note it.

peace – ishwar  (speak) 19:08, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh, there's plenty written about those peoples, it's just not in Wikipedia! The entire state of Alaska is a big mess in terms of how it's represented here, actually... I've just carved out Alaska Natives as my small little slice (!!!!) of what I'll do to improve it. Thanks again. --Yksin 19:25, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, there is a good amount, but none of it is here. thanks – ishwar  (speak) 19:34, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

reference for word list?

Hiya Ish,

Thanks again for the maps! :-)

Do you have a reference for a source from which I could get a wordlist of a manageable number of common words in all (or at least, several) Algonquian langs? Thanks in advance, --Ling.Nut 04:42, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

(Not ishwar, but responding anyway!) Well, there's always this. Is there something specific you're looking for? I have a few PDFs related to Algonquian historical linguistics that have some comparative word lists and such I could send to you if you need. --Miskwito 07:14, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

There is a proto-Algonquian (or -Algic) dictionary, i believe. I'll have to look that up. However, having never seen it, i dont know whats in it. Besides, that i could only give you references for (sub-)family surveys that appear in Mithun's (1999) book. If you already have that, then i'll save my typing. If not, then i'll add them to the Algic page. I dont know much about this family, so if you want more i'll have to refer you to a specialist (like look at the SSILA directory). You also may look for comparative work (e.g. Bloomfield's stuff) and search through JSTOR's IJAL archive (you probably know all this). There is some newsletter or published conference proceedings that is devoted Algonquian research. Maybe someone has an unpublished database?

A thank you to Miskwito for the mention of PDFs (i dont have any myself). About www.native-languages.org, i dont how accurate that site is. I would go to published stuff by linguists if available. – ishwar  (speak) 04:27, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi again

I've noticed you've been busy working on the Navajo language page. I've been too busy myself with other things to have a close look yet, but just wanted to say it's good to see! --RJCraig 21:30, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi. Yes, and when I should be doing something else in "real" life. If you find in anything wrong or unclear, just fix it. peace – ishwar  (speak) 21:45, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Camsá article

Just found your stub on Camsá. I added one very useful reference to it (the only collection of primary texts with morphemic glosses and translations that I know of). Do you have any plans to expand the article any time soon? If not, I may take a stab at it using McDowell's grammatical description of the language, but I don't know anything about the language first hand, so if you do happen to know anything more, I don't want to take it on... --Fenevad 00:00, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi. I have no plans to expand & do not have any materials on this Camsá. I just made the page to show that the language exists. Please go ahead and take it on. I'll be looking forward to it. Thank you – ishwar  (speak) 22:01, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Image:Algonquian langs.png

Hiya, I like this map very much. Is it too much to ask to kinda show which languages were in which area? Ulterior motive: I would like to know which Algonquian langs were westernmost... thanks!! --Ling.Nut 02:57, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that would be ideal. And eventually, I will do this if no one does it before me. However, it is time-consuming so I dont know when it will be done. Plus, knowing my biases I would probably want to start with the Northwest. In the meantime, I can email you a scanned section of my sources (which are much better anyway) if you want. – ishwar  (speak) 06:11, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

That would be excellent. But take your time; please do it only at your convenience. I'm just considering writing a little semester paper about Algonquian langs. Thanks! --Ling.Nut 15:01, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Style guidelines for sound pages

Hello, Ish. Recently CyborgTosser and I discussed and came up with proposed style guidelines for all the individual consonant and vowel pages wherein the Occurrence section would have a table rather than a bulleted list. You can see the discussion here. So far nobody else has commented on the proposed guidelines and I believe it's safer to get a solid consensus before undergoing the work to change so many pages. If you could comment on what has been proposed, even if it's a simple yay or nay, this would help us out quite a bit. Thank you very much. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 06:36, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi. Ok. Give me some time to read as there is a lot written there. peace – ishwar  (speak) 02:14, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Tones in Kiowa-Tanoan

Sorry for removing Kiowa-Tanoan from the list of tonal languages nbone of my sources mentioned anything about Tone for any of the languages of that family (Campbell, some IJAL articles some of which have reconstructions of ProtoKT phonology) and neither did the rather well developed article on Kiowa language. I defer to your sources and knowledge about the topic (especially since reliable information about tone is hard to come by even in languages that are better attested than KT and often altogether left out). but maybe it was an idea to put apart about tonality into the section on the Kiowa phonemic system? Maunus 22:00, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

No problem. I assumed that they were all tonal since I knew that Kiowa was tonal, but since you removed them from the article I tried to look them up. As far as I can tell, all Tanoan languages are tonal, except for Southern Tewa (which I cant confirm if its really tonal since the phonology work appears to be mostly an unpublished dissertation — it's probably tonal guessing from J.P. Harrington's comments on the Ysleta de Sur dialect) and Piros (which is basically unattested anyway and may not even be Tanoan).

About the tones: Kiowa has two level tones, high & low, with a falling tone, which if I remember correctly is a sequence of H+L (according to Watkins, but dont quote me until I check again). I dont remember about whether Kiowa has stress. I think that most (if not all) Tanoan languages have 3 level tones: high, mid, low. They also are reported to have 3 stress levels (primary, secondary, unstressed), which are realized at least partly as vowel length effects. In some languages (e.g. Taos), stress interacts with tone. I didnt read closely enough to learn the details of stress or the interaction. I have IJAL Tanoan papers in PDF form if you would me to email you some (they all seem to be in a structuralist framework). I havent read anything about tonal reconstruction (and dont even know if anyone has written on this).

I think I put some of that in the Kiowa article, but I never got to tone or any morpho-syntax. I find the inverse number very interesting and may eventually add a section on number marking. – ishwar  (speak) 22:26, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I have acces to the IJAL papers myself - so no need for mailing them, but thanks for the offer. If you find some articles particularly useful you can just give me the references. Inverse nmber really is very interesting and deserves elaboration.Maunus 11:50, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Okanagan language stub made

Hi. I seem to recall you're around the BC indigenous language pages quite a bit, although I can't remember if you're a Salishanist; I blind-copied template-style another language page to create the Okanagan language article and am hoping somebody qualified will come by and flesh it out; it was created as a result of needing to create at least a series of stubs for Okanagan people and the governments of Okanagan Nation Alliance, as there's a growing group of BC indigenous peoples' categories but there was nothing on the Okanagan people at all; and of course Okanagan goes to the region/valley of that name so it couldn't be that for a category name (which is Category:Syilx, thanks to TheMightyQuill). They were a big blank spot in Wiki coverage of BC First Nations, so I went ahead and zipped 'em together as obviously needed; I also went through a spate of tribal council and band government stubs for the Island Kwakwaka'wakw and Nuu-chah-nulth, although haven't tried to figure out the Salish on the southeast island yet; but all Nlaka'pamux, Secwepemc and Nlaka'pamux bands and TCs now have stubs (got started because of creating Ulkatcho First Nation because of Carey Price's Mom being the chief...). Most of those already have language articles, but there's still a few wholes here and there up north; I also have created a basic Ktunaxa article for its tc, the Kootenay Kinbasket Tribal Council, as Ktunaxa as it stands is a redirect to the band in Bonners Ferry ID (Kutenai (tribe)); the Ktunaxa link should be its own ethno article, for all the Ktunaxa (the Bonners Ferry band and the Elmo MT one are both part of the KKTC, however; in other words there's a series of articles needed there....and the Ktunaxa language article needs to be spun off separately....as on a lot of different languages....I should build myself a list as it's hard to remember where and which...

Anyway not meaning to go on, but just a heads-up about the Okanagan language stub in case you know anybody who can write it, if you can't. In general I think the BC language articles could use, as you may have heard me say before, more "lay" content and less technical content. Some have moved in that direction - easily accessible for non-linguistics scholars, full of examples and stories and key words and concepts and so on, instead of IPA tables and abstruse morphological analyses...but content is content; if you know of a Salishanist in Wikidom who'd be interested in the article's emergence, please let them know. I titled it Okanagan language rather than Syilx'tsn (which is a redirect) as this is an English language Wikipedia, and while native-language names are increasingly common in BC English, that's not the case in the outside world; could be either way as some language pages are titled in the original language, others in English (St'at'imcets vs. Thompson language, for instance...). Skookum1 09:13, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Endangered Languages

Hello Ish, long time! I see that Ling.Nut already told you about the new WikiProject Endangered Languages when he was in the process of starting it up. It has been created now, at WP:ENLANG, and I thought you might be interested in becoming a member. Feel free to decline, I understand that you're busy in real life.

All the best, — mark ✎ 10:32, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

English orthography

I changed the //double slashes// back to |pipes| since the latter is the standard IPA method of showing morphological representation. I also changed /e/ and /o/ back to diphthongs, mostly because the page discusses both American and British English and I think that doing so will make things a little clearer and simpler since they are analysed phonemically as diphthongs in RP. I'll fight harder for the first one than the second one. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 20:36, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi. I'd prefer not fighting about anything. Are the pipes standard for the IPA? Please point me where the IPA handbook says this (I assume in the introductory text). If that's true, I didnt know that. And it would be too bad because the double slashes (or double pipes), which I have encountered more often in phonological writings, seems to a better symbol to me (partly because it's iconic, partly looks more distinctive).

Whether [eɪ] is phonemically a diphthong depends on what phonological analysis you are following. It's often phonetically a diphthong, but the offglide is predictable. In some generative analyses, the offglides are inserted by phonological rule. My bias is toward an analysis of this type. As far as following a standard, some write /e/ while other write /eɪ/. There's a note to this affect on the talk page of that article. peace – ishwar  (speak) 20:53, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I didn't notice the talk page discussion. I agree with the analysis (although my dictionary sources both use <eɪ>); really, as long both American and British should be analyized the same way--and right now RP is shown as either /e(ɪ)/ or /eɪ/-- it should be fine and if youi prefer /e/ then I can simply change the RP examples. As for the pipes, well I seem to have spoken overzealously. I actually don't know if it's standard or not. I assumed as such because of the notation adopted on various phonology/morphology books as well as Wikipedia pages (phoneme, morphophonology, phonetic transcription, etc). If it's not standard IPA, it still seems to be de facto Wikipedia convention for morphemic representation. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 01:41, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, take a look in the handbook — that should tell you. I doubt that the IPA has anything on deep underlying representations/morphophonemes because the implicit theories behind the creation of the IPA didnt consider morphophonemic alternations a part of phonemics. Also, since the IPA already uses | for prosodic (intonational) phrases, I wouldnt expect it to use the same symbol for MP forms.

I dont think that there is a standard notation for MPs. For fun, I searched through Language for this: 3 authors used //...//, 3 authors (in 5 articles) used |...|, 2 authors used {...}, 1 author used ||...||. Looking through some grammars/dissertations at my house, Geoffrey Kimball's Koasati grammar uses //...//, Timothy Montler's Saanich phonology/morphology uses ||...|| as does Stephen Tyler's Koya sketch and Mary Foster's Tarascan sketch (both of these are University of California publications, so maybe this is the preference of those editors). The first edition of Encyclopedia of Language & Linguistics (the best linguistics encylopedia) uses {...} in its entries on morphology and morphophonemics. Many authors in Language also simply used italics (but I didnt count).

Whatever is used in Wikipedia can be changed. I would prefer //..// over |...| because in some fonts the lowercase letter l looks very similar to |, which may be confusing to people who are reading about the concept of morphophonemics contrasted with phonemics. ||...|| may be a bad choice because the IPA also uses || for prosodic phrases as well. {...} may not be preferred because it is also used to represent morphemes (e.g. {plural} or {past}). – ishwar  (speak) 21:41, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I added a note about making this a standard: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Phonetics#notational standard for morphophonemic/deep URs – ishwar  (speak) 22:36, 7 January 2007 (UTC)