User talk:M arpalmane/Archive 1
- 1 Article on Tulu Jains
- 2 Genetic information on Nairs
- 3 India related links
- 4 Gotra
- 5 Kannada wikipedia
- 6 from jayanthv
- 7 From Manu
- 8 Maratha haplogroups
- 9 Greetings
- 10 On sanskritisation
- 11 Chakara
- 12 Your edit to Aliya Santana
- 13 Beary peoples unique language
- 14 Your edits to Nair
- 15 About dravida
- 16 sorry about all the confusion
- 17 Kattu/Kattale
- 18 about bunts
- 19 Dravidian people
- 20 Onam Greetings
- 21 Tiyar
Article on Tulu Jains
- Good for starting the article, what we really need is an article on Jainism in South India because it is all interelated and Jains from Karnataka were instrumental in spreading Jainism in Tamil Nadu (see Tamil Jain)s. There is even a theory that Kalabhras invaders were Jains from Karnataka and were instrumental in the flowering of native literature such as some of the Sangam literature that caused Tamil to be such a conservative language.RaveenS 20:55, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Genetic information on Nairs
On the Nair page, you talked about the genetic information you had for Nairs (of course, without Nabmboothiri ancestry) that seemed to suggest that Nairs are indigenous to the south (i.e., Dravidian). Where did you get this information? Can I have a look at it? Also, have you found anything else that's interesting? ---Vivin Paliath (വിവിന് പാലിയത്) 22:58, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
Please follow the link, http://www.ysearch.org/haplosearch_view.asp?haplo=H&viewuid=6CZUM&p=0
The person's name is Vinay Nair. His haplogroup is H. You can find more information about it at https://www5.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/atlas.html You can read about this haplogrup by clicking on the marker M52(M52 and M69 are the two markers that determine this haplogroup)
This Genographic project from National Geographic has an ambition plan of mapping human migration out of Africa. IBM is one of the sponsers of the project and IBM team is headed by and Indian, Ajay Royyuru and he's a Telugu. He also belongs to Haplogroup H( Marker 69). http://www-03.ibm.com/industries/healthcare/doc/content/landing/1323036105.html
I expect majority of South Indians would belong to either Haplogroup L or Haplogroup H. All this while I'm discussing about the male lineage. When it comes to females, India is by and large very homogeneous. It's mostly male migration of invasion to India and most of the Indian female ancestry predates that of the males(even in South India). So when you talk about Nair ancestry, you should be specifying male Nair ancestry. However, I suppose male ancestry is irrelevent in a matrilineal society :-).
- I'm assuming that it is not a free service? I'd really like to compare my DNA to what they've got! Yeah, Nair society is by and large matrilineal. I can trace my ancestry back through my mother's family (Paliam) to a town called Ellankunnapuzha - that's where the Paliam family originated. I'm not so sure on my father's side. --Vivin Paliath (വിവിന് പാലിയത്)
Genographic project is oversubscribed. Hence there is a huge delay before you get your report. I'm still waiting for mine for nearly three months now. You can check out other services like Family tree DNA (familytreedna.com) though its expensive. Anyway, if you have Namboothiri ancestry most probably you are Haplogroup R1A. Manjunatha 5 Aug 2005
- I know that my great grandfather (from my mother's side) is Namboothiri, so that would put me in Haplogroup R1A. I do not know much about my ancestry from my father's side. The next time I go to India, I need to find out more from my grandparents! --Vivin Paliath (വിവിന് പാലിയത്)
The paternal ancestry is determined by Y-chromosome testing. This chromosome is passed from father to son, generation after generation. So your Y-chromosome barring few mutations won't change. However maternal ancestry is determined by the mitochondrial(respiratory centres) DNA testing because only mother's mitchondrial DNA is passed to her children. In your case your mother's Namboothiri ancestry is irrelevent. Only if your father's side had some Namboothiri you can say you are Haplogroup R1A. Anyway, check out with your father's family if your father's line had a Namboothiri. - Manjunatha 6 Aug 2005
Gurubrahma 06:51, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
I disgree with you on uncle-niece marriages. It is not vandalism where you state a blatantly broad statement as making uncle-niece marriages acceptable.
I did. Incest is forbidden in Hindu society, as with all societies. This a general article on gotra, not on the 1% who practice incest.
In Smarta brahmin communities where gotra is also passed from father to son, no uncle-niece marriage occurs. So the statement does not make sense.
Please designate what community follows this practice. I added that some claim that uncle-niece marriages occur. I don't know where. It does not happen in Mangalore.
Raj2004 19:01, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
I agree with you about marriage between cross-cousins. Thus, a man may marry his mother's brother's daughter but not marry his father's brother's daughter. A father's brother's daughter is treated as a sister. My parents are from Mangalore and I am familiar with this practice.
Raj2004 19:03, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Ideally, we should have had a better exchange than the one we are having. We both have Mangalore connection. Well, you admit it or not you were arrogant in deleting the parts of the article and in deleting the talk at your page. Unfortunately, this is not my first experience with such mentality. So nowadays I give really harsh response. Anyway, I apologise for that. Hope, we could have more constructive arguments now onwards. Manjunatha (24 Oct 2005)
I didn't mean to be arrogrant but as I said before, I don't think you characterize a trend in some communities as a general trend. If I was arrogant, I apologize as well.
I have been tough with people who don't defend their views. I argued with someone of European descent who argued with me that Vishnu does not mean all pervading; He said that interpretation was simply wrong! That seemed absurd. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Vishnu I agree with you that many have an arrogant mentality.
Raj2004 10:28, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Thanks again for enlightening me about uncle-niece marriages. I did not know that. I also tried to impose a point of view based on the Koota Brahmin community. We both feel into a trap of generalizing. For that, I am sorry and apologize.
Raj2004 22:31, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Happy New Year, Manjunatha
Raj2004 21:32, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
about your link 1,i dont see the name B.M.Hegde anywhere.There is the mention of one Vinay Hegde,who is the trustee of NITTE education trust,and it is just mentioned that he was the guest of honour for a bunts meeting. OK,still hegde is a common surname of brahmins, and especially North Canara brahmins.example: Ramakrishna Hegde,the former chief minister of Karnataka.
about the dravidian thing,people who talk dravidian languages dont become dravidians.I am not well versed with out of africa theory although i have a faint knowledge of what it is.I saw your link about the NGC page.Still,politically speaking(DMK),fair people ar considered Aryans,dark skinned people are called Dravidians. and you should be aware that you just cant categorise an entire caste/community as belonging to one race.So,i deleted dravidian and did not place Aryan instead. Aishwarya Rai can easily be identified as Aryan and my favourite actor Prakash Rai can easily be identified as dravidian.
OK,dravidian or aryan,you cannot assign a race to an entire caste. either you reply to me and remove the reverts you made,or please direct me to do so if you think my arguements are valid.--Jayanthv86 13:25, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, you are not aware of implications of race when you used the word. When you have already pointed out the irrelevence of its usage in South Indian population(Aishwarya Rai, Prakash Rai), you should have understood that the word was used purely in linguistic context. DMK is not a scientific organziation and their political views cannot be followed in Aryan and Dravidian definition. Perhaps, you must be aware Aryan became synonymous with superior white race instead of just a linguistic identity mainly because of Western racist theories.
- Please study Out-Of-Africa theory of Human population. Please study the new genetic studies of Indian caste population. Then perhaps you can get over the DMK theories of South Indian population. Wikipedia is not a place for political theories. Only Scientific theories should be allowed here, which I think you would appreciate. One thing that should interest you is that majority of(almost 92% by some studies) Indian maternal ancestry of both caste and tribe derived from gene pool that's specific to India. Indian male caste population is derived from the common gene pool. In simple words that means, there are no Y-chromosome lineages in dark South Indian population that are unique to them. All South Indian Y-chromosme (male) lineages could be found in North-West Indian(Pakistani) population, which of course is the gateway to South and East India(from Out-of-Africa, West Asia, Central Asia route).
- Jayanth, Are you a Mangalorean? I was born and brought up in Mangalore. I know Havyaks, I know Bunts. Do you know Hegade can be a surname of a Jain too? I'm tired of people deleting without any debate. I'm not going to revert deletions that you have made(Didn't you delete Ballal and Naik too?). Please do some research and if you find my initial info. was completely wrong I'm happy to accept. Otherwise, please revert your modifications.
- I don't know why you brought up DMK here. Dravidian movement was relevent only in Tamil Nadu. I'm sorry to say, your edits are not entirely innocent.
Manjunatha (28 Jan 2006)
Yes,i deleted Ballal and naik too,and i have mentioned it in the edit summary.I am not a mangalorean and my knowledge of south canara is also limited.sorry,i shall revert my deletions.--Jayanthv86 05:50, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
You seem to know something on the topic of the Nairs compared to some people who just make statements.Anyways I need to think on the following theory. It just occured to me and I want some outside suggestions. My theory accepts that the Nairs became a matriarchal society after the Chera-Chola warfare. As far as i have searched, read and understood, the Nairs were valiant fighters and the kings and warriors of Kerala. I have read the concerned chapters of the Manusmriti and the Nairs seem to fulfil most of them but that of the Sacred thread cermony. It is my understanding that none of the South Indian Kshatriyas right from the Marathas of Maharashtra, have this cermony. So even that is striked out. Anyways my theory is as follows. The Manusmriti says that no man should ever give power and independence to a woman and a man who does so is worst than a Sudra. So I believe that when they decided to turn their society into a matriarchal one, they broke a major rule and thats why the Namboodiris refused to toouch those men who gave power to women. But they had no problem sleeping with the women. Now if indeed, as the Keralolpati says, they were descendants of the Sudras, then would Indias nost orthodox Brahmins marry them, let them rule, be under their protection? Well i need your opinion now. Thanks - Manu
- Well, Do you think Nairs of yesteryears really cared whether they were Shudras or Kshatriyas as long as they could control the land and power(at least some of them)? Do you think Nairs are a unique race or a clan or a tribe totally unrelated to other Malayalees? Do you think people belonging to the same caste all have similar origins? Do you think Kerala was a caste society since the beginning of the civilization? Do you think matrilineal society was unique to Nairs?
- When you say, people who were soldiers must be Kshatriyas, you are talking about utopian concepts of caste. The caste position was everything about birth right. Caste system was created in North India therefore only there you can find the proper divisions of caste hierarchies(Maharashtra is not part of North India). However, in East and South India you hardly find such divisions.
- Probably, Nairs of old Kerala should have confronted Namboothiris with these logic arguments about caste position. However, since they have not done that and now the caste position is irrelevent for any practical purposes(except for ego), I think arguing about it now is absurd(Man, had Indians were logically inclined they would have opposed caste system long ago...Don't you think?).
- Probably, I have not answered any of your questions. Probably, I never will. When the whole argument is based upon a social construction which has been decidedly termed as pervert/absurd/inhuman, I don't know how one can reach any conclusion.
Manjunatha (10 Feb 2006) ok thts a logical enuf reply...yes the nairs were i guess very happy controlling the land . and as far as i know the lands were given by the namboos or sumthin so i guess theyd have accepted the namboodiris statements tht they were sudra...anyways ur rite...this is not practical now..neways...thanks-manu
Hi, on the Maratha page, you have cited a study by "Sengupta et al, 2006". Please provide full reference of the same in the references section. Also, if at all possible, an online link. I am trying to reword the section to remove unreferenced PoV and I hope you approve of my amendments. Best regards, ImpuMozhi 01:10, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Manjunatha (8 Mar 2006)
Thank you for the message.
The portion you cited in your message was not contributed by me. In fact, I am not aware of any such criticism from Dalit scholars about this concept of sanskritisation. But there could be. So I don't want to remove or rephrase it. Let someone who knows it do it.MANOJTV 00:42, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi! I was about to write to you earlier, but had to keep it off, and then I forgot about it. :P
You had added to the Chakara page about its sightings in the Tulu regions. Could you find a source for this? Everywhere I checked, this phenomenon has been documented only in Kerala and parts of South America. Cheers! -- thunderboltza.k.a.Deepu_Joseph |TALK 07:19, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Your edit to Aliya Santana
Your recent edit to Aliya Santana was reverted by an automated bot that attempts to recognize and repair vandalism to Wikipedia articles. If the bot reverted a legitimate edit, please accept my humble creator's apologies – if you bring it to the attention of the bot's owner, we may be able to improve its behavior. Click here for frequently asked questions about the bot and this warning. // Tawkerbot2 11:25, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- Spelling was at fault here, you typo'd REDIRECT typing REDIRCT instead, and it triggered the bot, I see you've fixed it :) -- Tawker 18:40, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Is it possible to write an article on the Beary bashe. It seem to be an interesting subject because they speak such a polygot language although they are 100% contained within a Tulu Nadu. Thanks RaveenS 16:50, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry I must have got carried away, putting an edit summary in is a good way to Inform other editors of the reasoning behind your edits. I will whitelist you so this wont happen again. TehKewl1 02:54, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
""You have not understood the wordings. In your overenthusiasm to portray grand picture of Karnataka you have overlooked the logic behind how Dravida came to represent whole of "South". If you think it didn't then you have to explain why Southern Brahmins were known as Pancha Dravida Brahmana. Do you deny that Kannadigas and Telugites started their kingdoms with native literary traditions very late when compared to Tamils. Probably, you must be knowing Satavahana was a Prakrit kingdom. And Kadamba was a much later kingdome when compared Chola, Chera, Pandya whose kingdoms were already mentioned in Ashokas edicts. Do you think your words make any sense to the whole article? Please read it twice and just think what kind of impression it gives. Isn't it totally out of place to the whole article? If you are convinced of that please revert your edits. If you have any questions please drop a message. Thank you"
dear Mr Manjunath, i was mearely trying to point out to Mr Pompus whoever he is, that other dravidian speakers, especially Kannada speakers have had their great empires too and that Tamils are not the only empire builders.
Secondly, Kannada speakers did not start their litreary traditions "very late". they started their traditions "later". please correct your english and see the difference in wording. This was because they were ruled by prakrit speakers in the north and hence Kannnada did not get the official recognition as early as tamil. This again has to do with geographical proximity. Please be aware of this. Just because the satahahanas encouraged Prakrit does not mean Kannada speakers did not speak Kannada, they just had to abide by officialdom given to Prakrit thats all, just like tulu spearkers todays have to abide by Kannada being the official language.
I dont see this issue out of place. Just as Mention of early tamils kingdoms is valid, so is the mention of Kannada kigndoms to show that speakers of other dravidian languages have had their time in the sun too. Get off your high Tamil horse.
sorry about all the confusion
Did not mean any personal attacks. I though my content did matter. I have no complaints about the origin of the word dravida either. I was merely trying to emphasise the birth of native vernacular traditions and empires and its relation to current day dravida verses what may have been the definition in 100AD. Also if you look at the history of the page, the edit before my first edit already had info (inaccurate as it is) that "other dravida language speakers built their native empires a millinium after the Tamils". This was false info as far as Kannada speakers are concerned, which i corrected, thats all. I did not start the trumpeting or the putting info that was out of place.
I read u r message about Kattu/Kattale. Please elaborate me on this topic.
i was just curious about how you came across so much information on bunts, which is a relatively unknown group. is there any site that yoiu referred to.
- You can find the web articles on Bunts listed at Bunt. I am a Mangalorean so Bunts are hardly unknown group to me at least!
Manjunatha (5 Aug 2005)
Thanks 4 d reply. I am working in Manipal, Udupi. Unfortunately, i don't know anyone who can give information on the above said subject. Probably, The Govind Pai Research Centre, located at MGM College campus, Udupi might provide necessary information.
Vikram K. Hegde
I had updated the page, take a look at it RaveenS 21:09, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
The term Tiyaar or Tiyaan has very clear meaning in Tamil and probably means the same in Mal. It means someone who does something bad. It was later changed to Teevaar meaning Islander to be equivalent to Ezhavas claiming Sri Lankan ancestry. According to my sources, these changes were post Caldwell in British India. Another example but post 12th century AD, the fishing Karaiyar caste in Tamil Nadu Sanskritized it to Kaurava then to Kuru. Followed by related Paravas changing their name to Bharatas.:-). In Jaffna peninsula we had Tiyar till about 100 years ago, a famous author Dominic Jiva is from that caste. But it is no longer exists. According to Dominic, they had to wear a Palm leaf to their back so that as they walked, they would clear their own foot steps. A tradition peculiar to Kerala but not documented in Tamil Nadu.