User talk:MikeLynch/Archive 13

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QS Asian University Rankings

Since you seem to be the only one who cares, what do you think about adding the QS Asian University Rankings to {{Infobox India university ranking}}? I saw it used for some universities. --Muhandes (talk) 23:09, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Should be fine, as long as it is marked properly as Asian. Also, was browsing and found streamwise rankings. I know it would be a pain to include rankings in all streams for a college, but can we do something with this? Lynch 7 04:44, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Personally I feel that the rankings by subject are borderline WP:INDISCRIMINATE. I feel the same way about component lists (top 100 research, top 100 placement etc.). In essence we need to draw the line where it stops being substantial and notable ranking and starts being numbers. The reason I believe Asian is different from the components is twofold. First, the world QS listing itself is quite meaningless because it puts India universities somewhere in the 250+, making all numbers look more or less the same (250 does not look much better than 350). Second, I saw great discrepancy between the lists, which means they use different data and different methodology. Both of these convinced me the Asian one might have room together with the world one. I am not convinced the subject/component ones have any of these merits. --Muhandes (talk) 15:56, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

I tend to agree with you, we'd be wasting too much time on something which will be too difficult to organize, and could be possibly meaningless. Thanks, Lynch 7 18:17, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm glad we agree. I just realized I missed a major rankings, this one. --Muhandes (talk) 10:11, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

I guess we focused too much on Engineering and specialized fields that we missed out something bigger :P Lynch 7 13:44, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Abuse response nomination

Could you please review my nomination at Wikipedia:Abuse response/Nominate.--Ankit Maity ^{Talk • contribs} 05:46, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

I have done the IP Quiz, please review it.--Ankit Maity ^{Talk • contribs} 15:41, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

But in the WHOIS search only their contacts are mentioned. Are those for reporting abuse? In the previous IP Quiz which was done by Tarheel95, he mentioned the contacts. But Ebe123 graded them incorrect as in his opinion it was not for abuse. So, what should I do now.--Ankit Maity ^{Talk • contribs} 05:04, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

In the WHOIS search if there is any abuse contact, it is mentioned as OrgAbuseName and all. But in the IP Quiz, none of the IP's ISP had any abuse handling contacts so it's all right.--Ankit Maity ^{Talk • contribs} 06:20, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

It varies from country to country and ISP to ISP. You need to judge which is the right one. Lynch 7 13:13, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Irritation

This user is continuously changing my edits in Ra.One, with summaries like "fixed a typo i made, i think everything's done and normal now" , "improved the plot" and "fixed grammar in the plot and made it better written", when he has only complicated stuff more. See these two for instance. He has undid my edit and removed the summary to hide it. Is "Ra.One returns to life and takes on another human form" more complicated than "Ra.One reassembles himself by taking on another human form"? I wish to assume good faith, but at the moment I am feeling really annoyed with that guy. Would be glad if you look into it and advise him. I have already given a note on his page, but he seems to be like "My edit is not wrong, just look at it." Thanks. X.One ^SOS 07:30, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, the issue seems to be about the content/complication of wording itself rather than the summaries. The summaries are acceptable. Discuss more on the content, as the issue seems to be there. I know it seems silly to have a full blown discussion just for some wording, but if all else fails, then that's the best way to do it. Lynch 7 12:33, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Why This Kolaveri Di

On 19 December 2011, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Why This Kolaveri Di, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that the music video for the Tanglish song "Why This Kolaveri Di" had more than 10 million YouTube hits in the two weeks after its posting? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Why This Kolaveri Di.You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Orlady (talk) 16:56, 18 December 2011 (UTC) 08:03, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Nah, I think you should get the credit :P Lynch 7 12:02, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

A bowl of strawberries for you!

For reinstating Kannada transliteration in RD page. KevinBraun 06:47, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Art Pope

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Kannada Transliteration

Hello Wikipedians with admin rights, Kannada Transliteration is frequently being removed from various pages. Recent examples IIM-B and Rahul Dravid. Can some one please see into this.? thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.83.98.169 (talk) 22:11, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Again:: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramesh_Aravind — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kbr144 (talk • contribs) 07:33, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

This guy is a vandal+ language fanatic. He changed > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravi_Shankar_(spiritual_leader) , Jairam Ramesh, Shruthi Hassan, Aishwarya Rajnikanth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kbr144 (talk • contribs) 07:38, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)There is no such rule to add/remove other language scripts to articles in Wikipedia. Generally, we include scripts of mother tongue of the subject. —Commander _{(Ping me)} 07:49, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, there is no such rule. Not even for the mother tongue. If needed, have a separate discussion for each case. Lynch 7 09:41, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Excuse Me!! As per the reliable sources that i had provided, Rahul Dravid happens to be a maharashtrian. One does not become a kannadiga if he/she resides in Bangalore. I agree that i must have discussed it in the talk page before making that edit. Sorry about that. But i don't see anything wrong about my edit in the "Rahul Dravid" page. I cannot help but wonder "why there is a kannada tranliteration" for dravid's name. Thank You!! Hari7478 (talk) 10:55, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Reply to User:Kbr:144'a accusations on me.
Does user:Kbr144 even know the basics of wiki' editing? See below:My reply to user:Kbr144's accusations.

Jairam Ramesh - In this page, i had provided reliable sources which speak of his "Iyengar brahmin" origin. Another src specifically says that he is tamil brahmin. The prime policy of wiki' editing is verifiabilty. Does user:kbr144 even understand that? See these:[1], [2].

Shruti Haasan - Her mother "Sarika" is a maharashtrian, hence i added a marathi transliteration. See this:[3]

Aishwarya Rajinikanth - Actor Rajinikanth was born as "Shivaji Rao Gaekwad" into a maratha family. See these:[4], [5]. What's wrong in adding a marathi script?

Sri Sri Ravishankar - See here:Ravishankar Biography. The source says that he is a tamil iyer brahmin.

Is User:kbr144 trying to say that "anyone who resides in Karnataka should have a kannada transliteration for his/her name"???
I'm sorry. Only the transliterations of one's name in his/her mother tongue can be added in wiki', regardless of one's current place of residence. Also, one might be multi lingual, and might know various languages. For that reason you cannot add transliterations in all those languages, but only that of their mother tongue. Thank You. This was a reply to "user:knr144's" accusations on me, and has nothing to do with the owner of this talk page. Thank You. Hari7478 (talk) 11:17, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Take this to WT:IN. It does not matter what one's mother tongue is, please do not formulate your own policies and apply them. For your information, a recently concluded RfC at Talk:Katrina Kaif was closed, with the consensus that Kashmiri transliteration be added. Does Kaif know a word of Kashmiri? I highly doubt it, she barely knows Hindi. A language should not be added just to show association with a particular state. Grow some sense and take this to appropriate forums when you know its controversial. Lynch 7 11:42, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

FYI, Obama's father was a native African. I don't see Swahili or Zulu or Afrikaans transliterations in our President's FA article. Lynch 7 11:49, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

* I agree. Will take the issues to WP:IN. But there's nothing to say that "Sri Sri Ravishankar speaks kannada". As per the source he happens to be tamil brahmin. So why should you reinstate the kannada transliteration of his name, while there is no src to support it. If you cannot confirm any of that, then delete both the scripts. He is a tamil iyer brahmin who was born in tamil nadu. See here:Ravishankar Biography

Reg' Jairam Ramesh - See here:[6]. The article says that he is tamil brahmin. But u've removed the tamil script and kept the kannada transliteration alone. But there is nothing in support of that kannada script. So, when it is disputed, why couldn't you remove both of them?

However, thanks for notifying. I will definitely raise these issues in "WP:IN". Hari7478 (talk) 13:15, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

My intention was to take it to status quo ante bellum. Its Wikipedia_talk:Noticeboard_for_India-related_topics#Native_languages_in_lead. I don't dispute that Jairam Ramesh and Ravishankar are born Tamilians. What I dispute is the fact that the Tamil script should go up only because of that virtue. There is absolutely no policy or consensus for that. Lynch 7 13:28, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

User:Hari7478 , In this regard it so happens that you know basics of editing only as much as I do! :D Thanks! KevinBraun 17:45, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Konkani

Was reading this article Konkani alphabets & Gawd! 4 scripts!! Bio articles with Konkani involvements are gonna go tough to decide. But as the Devnagri script is popular & also is used on currency notes, shouldnt that be followed, if at all it is to be used on wiki? -Animeshkulkarni (talk) 22:17, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

I remember seeing a discussion wherein it was decided that Kannada script should be used. I'll try and dig it up. Lynch 7 03:40, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

um hmm! -Animeshkulkarni (talk) 11:45, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

It so turns out that there exists two dialects; Canara Konkani and Goan Konkani. One uses Kannada script, while the other does not. Its obviously a matter that just two editors cannot decide upon. Lynch 7 11:52, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I see! But if government uses a certain script, we should just follow that. Is it already a rule which editors dont follow or is it just something no one wanted to fall in? -Animeshkulkarni (talk) 12:08, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

There's no compulsion on doing what the Government does, is there :) Konkani use in any particular script is not mandated by the Government. People in Karnataka use Kannada script for Konkani all the time. Lynch 7 12:11, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

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Regarding the IPAs in WP:IN forum

I had posted the same comment under "my suport message in the Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics#Options". But now there are too many messages that are following it, so you might not be able to spot it. If possible, post a comment there. However i would post the same here as well. I hope you don't mind. Coz this is essential. See below:

There might be another small complication, but i think it won't even be an issue. As i had mentioned before, tamil does not have enough alphabets to represent all types of sounds. However, today, most tamilians have sanskrit names, which can't be interpreted with a "tamil IPA". For the four different schemes "K KH G GH", tamil only has one "K" to represent all of them. In other words, for the english alphabets "K & G", there is only one "K" in tamil, as you can see from the tamil IPA page. So the name "Ganesh" can only be interpreted as "Kanesh" with a tamil IPA. However, the tamilian himself only pronounces it as "Ganesh" & not "Kanesh". In this case, a "tamil IPA" will not be useful even when interpreting the name of the tamilian, rather a "Hindi-Urdu or Sanskrit IPA" need to be used. In another example the name "Madhavan"(actor) can only be interpreted as "Mathavan" using a tamil IPA, because there is only one "TH" in tamil for the four schemes "T TH D DH". In other words, both the english alphabets "T & D" are only represented by one "T" in tamil. However, the actor himself pronounces his name as "Madhavan" and not "Mathavan". I support the use of "Hindui-Urdu, Sanskrit IPAs" in such cases, but i'm not sure if some south indian editors would approve of it. Hari7478 (talk) 11:14, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Obviously, editors will not support you when you go on blankly saying that Tamil is deficient in something. I do not know about Tamil IPA, and my comments on that will be meaningless. As far as my present knowledge goes, I will strongly oppose any proposal to use only Sanskrit and Hindi-Urdu. Lynch 7 11:40, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

On a related theme, can you possibly clarify something for me regarding IPA in India-related articles? Is it the case that, say, the Tamil and Hindi IPAs for a person would be different? Are we going to see multiple IPAs listed after each person/film/community name etc?

Also, I've definitely seen examples where towns/cities have been claimed to have multiple official languages. Is this actually true? Does the same apply at state level?

Obviously, I put my comments at WT:IN but I'm after a bit of basic clarification here, not being from India or speaking any of the languages under discussion - I have no desire to appear even more stupid than I already do! - Sitush (talk) 12:20, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

It makes no sense really to have multiple IPAs listed, because the same problem will repeat again. We should have only one IPA.

Hehe, don't worry, sometimes its confusing for Indians ourselves! States usually don't have multiple official languages; only one language is the language used for official purposes. Other than that, Hindi and English are also valid for official use in most states. Lynch 7 12:27, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Your comment about multiple IPAs is exactly my concern, and I shall be saying so soon. Regarding the official language situation, it would seem that we would therefore be showing English, Hindi + the official language. It would be great if there was a formal reference desk where volunteers proficient in the various forms offered to check any referred scripts. Perhaps such a thing already exists, but I've never seen it and tend to rely on Spiffy, Sodabottle etc when something really weird is going on. - Sitush (talk) 12:32, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

In general, yes, Hindi is applicable in most North Indian states (north of Maharashtra) (don't take my word for it though, sometimes states pass weird laws). Most South Indian states have the major local language as the official language. I guess WT:IN was supposed to be for the purpose you speak of :P Lynch 7 12:37, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

It makes much much more sense to have just one IPA; Branding IPAs as "Tamil Pronunciation", and "Hindi Pronunciation" is meaningless for two reasons: 1) It creates that "stamp" of the language again, something which we sought to eliminate. 2) Languages like Hindi are so widely spoken that pronunciation differs from place to place. For instance, there are lots of pronunciation differences between Mumbai Hindi and Delhi Hindi. This pronunciation can in turn be based on the subject's mother tongue/location. Lynch 7 12:50, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanations. Having got the background cleared up, I felt much happier commenting at WT:IN. I want a workable solution to come out of the process and was not certain that all angles were being considered. - Sitush (talk) 13:14, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

In fact, I'm not really comfortable having to use mother tongues anywhere, but we have to have some starting point. It is critical that we do not add any stamp of the language. Lynch 7 13:36, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes. The language(tamil) does not have a variety of alphabets to represent all sorts of sounds. I mean no offense at all. Please don't interpret my comments in any other way. Here you go:Please observe these very carefully.

For ta(त) tha(थ) da(द) dha(ध) - there is only one ta(tamil:த)(devnagari:त) in tamil for all.
For ka(क) kha(ख) ga (ग) gha(घ) - you only have one ka(tamil:க)(devnagari:क) in tamil.
For sa(स) cha(च) sa(श) sha(ष) - there is just one sa(tamil:ச)(devnagari:स)
So "Madhavan" can only be written as "Mathavan". However even the tamils pronounce it as "Madhavan" only.
"Chakravarti" can only be interpreted as "Sakravarti". However they pronounce it, in its original form (Chakravarthi). So, what to do now? Most of them have "sanskrit names" but they want it to be interpreted with a "tamil ipa" which is not possible. Even they pronounce the names as per the original pronunciation in sanskrit. But there are no alphabets available in tamil to interpret them. Using "Hindi-Urdu/Sanskrit IPA" is the only solution.

In the following message, i mean no offense but i'm just explaining the facts: If a group of people (for example:tamilians or any other grp) are so particular about their linguistic heritage, they shouldn't have sanskrit names in the first place. Sanskrit names were only used by "North Indians & South Indian Brahmins". But today all south indians(inc' the actual tamils/dravidians) have started using sanskrit names, as they don't want to be any different from us w.r.t naming. They also pronounce it as per the original "sanskritic pronunciation". That being the case, they have to accept the ground reality - "Sanskrit names can only be interpreted with hindi/sanskrit IPAs". "Such a group of people" cannot ask the whole world to change/adjust/or witness an inconsistent interpretation, for their confused state.

Again, in this message i'm simply trying to share the facts and I don't intend to bring caste here, but please wake up to the reality, and don't misinterpret my comments - See this:http://www.ahobilamutt.org/us/data/pdf/Sri_Ahobila_Muth_83rd_TN_Azhagiyasingar_2009.pdf - Here a whole invitation is printed in sanskrit by the vadakalai iyengar brahmins of TN, and it is a common practice. The language(sanskrit) is still used as a language of commnunication by them. So, if you add a "tamil IPA" for them, it won't be acceptable to most of them, as you cannot interpret most of the sanskrit names in it. "Tamil brahmins" speak/use a highly sanskritized tamil-are believed to be of vedic aryan heritage, and are not considered to be indigenous south indians by the locals. Every tamil brahmin would have a pucca sanskrit name and would also pronounce it/want others to pronounce it as per the original sanskritic pronunciation. Also, they are the only community to still put sanskrit into use(for ritualistic purposes). An average south indian brahmin recites sanskrit hymns while performing his daily rituals/oblations/twilight prayer, etc, and there are still many in south who are practicing it. While getting blessed by elders they "touch their feet & recite their abhivadana, where they tell out their name in sanskrit, loudly". So, this literally becomes a language in use. Also, most of them can read/write devnagari
You need to see through the distinctions, as one format for the whole of south will not be acceptable to all of them. However, as there is no kannada/telugu/malayalam IPA for the ppl speaking those languages, "they along with tamil brahmins" won't have any problem with hindi-sanskrit IPAs. Are you trying to emphasize on "protest from a small minority of people" and make a compromise on a huge issue. I can promise you, that it won't be an issue at all. Coz there won't be any script but just links to a page. Please take this into consideration, as these differences are essential. It si a logn message;plz go through it completely for a clear picture. Hari7478 (talk) 13:35, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying Hari, and I understand your point. My point is that, we want to stress more on how it is pronounced (that's your intention too). Let me be clear on my stand; We know how "Madhavan" is pronounced; now, just because he is a Tamilian, we should not use Tamil IPA. If the correct pronunciation of "Madhavan" can be got by English IPA, then its very well. If not, we go to the IPA which is best suited for that name. The critical point is that, we should not mention it as "Tamil pronunciation", or "Hindi pronunciation"; lets give the actual pronunciation based on some factors (mother tongue, area of fame, whatever), but we don't mention that it is Tamilian, Hindi, etc. My aim is to take the language completely out of the name. Lynch 7 13:44, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

That is indeed my intention too. As you said, factors such as mother tongue/area of fame/any other, could be considered for that purpose. But, again it varies from one group to the other. For example: Madhavan belongs to the "vadakalai iyengar brahmin group", and i had posted a link to an invitation(pdf) where it was entirely printed in sanskrit. See this again:[7]. The lang' is till used as a medium of communication for such purposes. And i hope you read my other comments about "the brahmins in south india" regarding their use of sanskrit. So just for example - If Madhavan's name cannot be pronounced with a "tamil ipa" properly, one has to immediately consider "sanskrit", based on the factors listed, as this language seems to be highly important, just like another mother tongue for this group of brahmins. Or if it is pronounced best by using "Hindi-Urdu IPA", that'll do, coz' the hindi IPA is not much different from sanskrit, and the actor has contributed towards bollywood films too.

I another example, "शाहरूख खान" cannot be pronounced with the help of an "english ipa". We only have a " स " and " ष " in english, but no " श ". So, given his "pashtun/pathan origin, considering the fact that he's an indian muslim, and other factors like bollywood(hindi language cinema)", we can consider the followng IPAs in the order "1.Hindi-Urdu, 2.Persian". If you cannot get the pronunciation with the help of one IPA, go for the next choice, in the order, and find the best suited one. But what i'm trying to say is, in most cases, the names(which are mostly in sanskrit) of tamilians or any other southerner, cannot be pronounced with the help of a "tamil IPA", and so "sanskrit/hindi/english or any other" IPAs have to be used. But we need to explain it to the warring editors in such a way that it doesn't become a disputable matter, and make them understand the fact that "language is completely out of the name", as you said. Thank You!! Hari7478 (talk) 14:35, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that is a real issue, but I don't think it is very pressing; let us see once it is implemented (hopefully it will be). Lynch 7 15:02, 21 December 2011 (UTC)