User talk:Pfly/Archive 2

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Sacramento River drainage map ...

I've been enjoying the quite excellent map you made of the drainage area of the Sacramento River about a year ago Image:Sacramento watershed.png, and have been considering trying to do something similar for adjacent and tributary rivers, such as the Trinity River (California). So the question I've been puzzling over is - how did you make such a wonderful map?

You cite "USGS data" as the basic information - could you steer me to where within the USGS database/website you found the details of the drainage area information? I hope that you didn't have to laboriously pick out the drainage area by hand!

Second, once you had the information defining the boundary of the drainage area, how did you trace that information onto the map of California? Again, I hope that you didn't have to freehand the drainage area boundary onto the map!

So, if you would be kind enough to share a bit of your secrets, I'd like to try creating drainage area maps for other rivers in Northern California. Thanks! NorCalHistory (talk) 08:01, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for lifting the curtain and letting us see a bit backstage! I'll take a close look at the rough maps you've pulled together. What I actually have been toying with is an article on the "Trinity Divide" separating the watersheds of the Sacramento from the Trinity/Klamath Rivers. There are quite a few interesting things along that divide. Did the rough maps you threw together come with Photoshop-type layers or are they all merged down? Thanks again!

PS: this one is one of mine ... took all day! NorCalHistory (talk) 07:41, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Lakewood, Washington

You've contributed a lot to Puget Sound area articles. Would you be willing to take a look at the debate I'm having at Talk:Lakewood, Washington and do whatever you think is best? Travisl (talk) 16:53, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the nofollow information. I'd quoted where it's mentioned in WP:EL earlier in the discussion, but it's good to have the info reinforced. Travisl (talk) 00:01, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Columbia River

Pfly, thanks for your recent attention to the Columbia River article, which finally made it to GA. I've been chipping away at it for a long time, and your recent editing and attention to detail made a big difference in getting it up to snuff. Very gratifying to have such a talented group assemble around the article. Hope you'll continue to work on it as we move toward FA! -Pete (talk) 03:40, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Peer review request

Hi Pfly, congrats on the Columbia River article. I loved your comment on using the creek articles I work on as a model for such a big river. I think it would be like using a mouse as a model for an elephant.

Speaking of mice ;-), if you have a chance could you look at Wikipedia:Peer review/List of tributaries of Larrys Creek/archive1 and see if you have any suggestions for how the article could be improved? I am going to try and go for WP:FLC with it and would appreciate feedback from soemone who has river knowledge. Thanks in advance for any help, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 14:03, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Spokane River

Hi, when you did all those Columbia tributary river maps did you skip the Spokane river? I didn't see one over at commons. Kmusser (talk) 16:26, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Columbia District

I'd say go for it and if you want the Photoshop file for my map to use as a base I can send it to you. I think the only things it was really missing were the HBC district boundary and adding a couple of the major HBC trails. Kmusser (talk) 12:16, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Had a look at the text you made, Pfly, needs a tweak here and there but reads well; "joint occupancy" is a thorny term; try and find the Anglo-American Treaty and read, I think, Article III. "Joint occupancy" is how we're taught it up here; it's more like the Nootka Convention, where both sides agreed not to agree, and also in a way not to prejudice other Powers' claims to the area (e.g. Russia); diplomatic language in treaties is an entirely different thing once it hits the post-negotiatory cocktail party and press conference though; I had a real go-to about the joint occupancy thing on either Talk:Oregon boundary dispute or Talk:Oregon Country, I think with user:Aboutmovies who I first locked horns with over Hollywood North, as I recall; the term itself is not actually in the agreement but grew up over time as an interpretation of its meaning; related wording about this I also noted on another article yesterday, what was it? - oh yeah, hmm, can't remember exactly, had to do with the California-0regon boundary resulting from the Franco-Spanish partition of territories they'd never set foot in ;-). Anyway, that's not why I dropped by...see next section.Skookum1 (talk) 19:31, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Anyway, I have a copy up at if you want to download it.Kmusser (talk) 13:03, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Er, that's a PSD file, I'm using a fully-loaded (as in loaded with data, not fully loaded like a set of wheels) G4 with not much squeeze room left for a 65mb file, and I don't think iPhoto likes PSD files that much; mind posting it in JPG, GIF or PNG?Skookum1 (talk) 13:32, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
It's meant for Pfly, who I think has Photoshop, and if so can take advantage of Photoshop's layers. The PNG version is what's already in the article. Kmusser (talk) 14:23, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
(Skookum, it's the photoshop version of the map already on Columbia District). Thanks Karl -- I had been thinking I'd extend it farther north and south, but in looking at your lovely map now I'm thinking I'll just stick with it and make some edits. Thanks again! Pfly (talk) 14:24, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Dalles des Morts

Finally started it, wound up only blockquoting two of the archival sources, didn't get to the main disaster which is here and in the geneaological-page link; I read another account a while ago in a book, can't think which as it was last summer sometime, must have been something in the Wells, British Columbia library, where I lived during June....anyway re Dalles des Morts if you can think of any further cats....?Skookum1 (talk) 19:31, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Yikes, I just tried a search for Dalles as in "contains" and it's a wide array of places; including Little Dalles Canyon, which is the site of the Revelstoke Canyon Dam (I guess Little Dalles Canyon => Revelstoke Canyon maybe?). Off to the gym but it looks like I've got myself some stubbing to do.....Skookum1 (talk) 21:57, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

BC Flathead

Nice one. A late one-time friend of mine had been the 3rd generation guide-outfitter for the BC part of the Flathead; Bob died a couple of years ago in South Africa facing down a cape buffalo...he'd go on about the Flathead, it was his real home; there's a negative image of guide outfitters among nature/eco types, but Bob was an ardent conservationist like many packers, and fought and fought against the coal-mining and logging plans for that area....Flathead-Kishinena is it? Still a point of controversy, I don't know who's leading the battle now Bob's gone; I think American environmental heat is most likely to stop BC's plans, as Glacier Nat'l Park is what's's also one of the last bits of the southern Cdn Rockies that's not ripped up (like the Elk Valley is...), since so much of the rest is in national parks, granted (unlike BC's other ranges). But yeah, it's often overlooked that BC has a small chunk of the Columbia basin that's not part of the Okanagan, Kettle, Columbia-main or Kootenay basins, and orients towards Montana....btw if the US had accepted one British proposal, the boundary would have run up the Columbia to Boat Encampment, the Kootenays would have been part of the US....they'd originally suggested the Snake, then the Columbia to Waneta and then along the 49th; can't remember why the Boat Encampment offer even came up; the Americans certainly never offered it, not that I can see why they would, that is....but none of the diplomats in charge of these decisions had any idea of the reality on the ground. "Do they ever?", I suppose...Skookum1 (talk) 06:00, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Hood Canal

That's a good source on whether Hood Canal is part of Puget Sound. I've visited my grandparents' place on the canal since the mid 1970s, and while we never considered it part of Puget Sound, I don't think I can count them as a reliable source :-) I've added the categorization back.

I did hear somewhere, many years ago, that the "true" Puget Sound only included the part of the sound south of the Narrows Bridge (meaning that Elliot Bay, for example, was not part of Puget Sound). I was doubtful of the source then, and I'm even more doubtful now, but I sure wish I could find it again to see if I could figure out what they were really intending.

Thanks, BTW, for the maps. I've only done one (Tacoma Narrows) and would really like to figure out how to do nicer ones (like all of the new WA state highway maps that have been updated recently).Travisl (talk) 20:09, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Category:Spanish history in the Pacific Northwest

Just created this, seems to be more than called for, haven't added ship names yet, just captains and Nootka Sound and Fort San Miguel. Came out of researching Alberni Canal/Inlet which I'll take up on that talkpage.Skookum1 (talk) 16:43, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Discovery Passage map

Thanks for doing the maps you have added to several BC pages. They are excellent. I wonder though if the abbreviation of Discovery Passage to Discovery Pass is correct. Pass with a dot to indicate is is an abbreviation would be one way to do it, but it looks to me like there is room for the whole word. I think Pass and Passage have two different meanings. Pass, to me at least, means a mountain pass. The marine charts I have, don't use Pass as equivalent to Passage. I could be wrong about this whole thing, but thought I would ask. --KenWalker | Talk 15:43, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

"Pass" is fvairly common as avernacular contraction of the marine context of "Passage" - think Active Pass, although that name is at least gazetted that way. I spent time last night looking for Canoe Pass as it's the name of ht part of Fort George Canyon the Nechacco (sternwheeleer) picture was taken in; found two "Canoe Passages", one in the Broughton Archipelago, the other in Barkley Sound. It's also used by bivouac. for the pass between the Fraser and Canoe Rivers at Valemount, but officially it's a high alpine pass in that same area. As far as marine usages of "pass" go there's also Deception Pass and others.Skookum1 (talk) 15:55, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Can't find the right link; see Steamboats of the Upper Fraser River in British Columbia, not taht it matters.Skookum1 (talk) 15:58, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

It was my mistake. I was working off a little atlas of BC I have, which called it Discovery Pass. It was only as I added the map to wikipedia that I saw Passage. Checked BCGNIS which confirmed Passage. I'll fix it in a while when I get the chance.

What I'd like is a better atlas of BC. Something like the Benchmark Maps of US states. The little atlas I have is this one. Pfly (talk) 16:05, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

This is BC Basemap which is useful for all kinds of things, including checking official names and multiple names; it reflects the provicnial gazette. Anothher is the Land and Data Resources Warehouse Catalogue, much the same thing but more complex; it's supposed to supersede basemap but they haven't taken the latter down yet; there are more simplified forms of them, also, on but basemap for now (that Columbia Basin development map from Talk:Columbia River is built on one of the simpler forms) is the most versatile and easiest to use..Skookum1 (talk) 16:25, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Why Local history is so important

Important? Well, fascinating anyway. I was looking up Rock Creek Gold Rush in google to try and find out the gold revenue from the rush as pre a talkpage request and came across this. Found similar while prepping to write he steamboat articles I still haven't gogto on the Thompson and Uppermost Columbia et al....but this one's a goodie; Camp McKinney and Anarchist Mountain both need writeups, maybe also China Road; and Rock Creek, British Columbia needs better the way did you see that Wiki scholarship thing for Alexandria Egypt? I'm tossing around a Local history outreach progfram to gert a lot of this tiny-history stuff into Wiki; it's the only way to preserve pioneer history, in teh detail and lexiligyt needed. Whatever I'm exhuasted, going t oberd...

Marine Maps

The map you have added to Haro Strait is yet another valuable contribution. Thanks for doing it. Sometime if you are inclined it might be interesting to plot the alternative boundaries around San Juan Island for use in Pig War although there is already a nice map there showing the current boundary and/or for use in the Oregon boundary dispute article. I see that there is a useful map in Alaska boundary dispute. Dixon Entrance uses a copies of hyrdrographic charts to show the different boundary claims. Something that shows the area claimed by both countries might be useful. A pet bug of mine that would be clarified with a map is something that shows the part of Skookumchuck Narrows in the Sechelt Inlet that is correctly described as Sechelt Rapids and incorrectly called Skookumchuk Rapids by many. If you need specifics, I could mail you something from a marine chart showing the specifics. Anyway, these are just ideas of mine and I am sure you have many of your own that have higher priority. There is certainly no shortage of pages that need maps even just in BC. Cheers and thanks again! --KenWalker | Talk 22:32, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Just to note that "Skookumchuck Rapids" is redundant - "rapids rapids".Skookum1 (talk) 01:54, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Estevan Group

Your stuff on Jacinto Caamano got me going; I looked other Spanish names up in the area, saw Dewdney and Barnard in the listing, and Trutch, and realized it was worth an article. Do you mind doing the BCGNIS stubs? I'm tired now (3:20am); if these islands aren't mentioned on their LG pages under "legacy" they should be; they probably are, though, at least on Dewdney's and Trutch's as IIRC there's been a lot of work on those.....Skookum1 (talk) 06:20, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Category:Marine fur trade

...And subcat Category:Vessels of the marine fur trade or Category:Marine fur trade vessels...I'd say it's about time to start these as subcats of Category:Fur trade, no? Meares, Barkley, Colnett, the Tonquin et al. We have enough articles to make these worth the bother, yes? It seems necessary to distinguish the Marine fur trade as an article, too, as it's quite different from the land-based Fur trade article, and also a missing component in the USPOV Old China trade article....on a related but very obscure tangent, in Pethick he talks about Khiatka which was a fur market on the Russo-Chinese border where a lot of Canadians furs got sold into China; via St. Petersburg and Murmansk, no less....; no Khiatka article, not sure if that's an alt spelling of something there's an article for....most Pacific Northwest furs, if not all, were sold in Canton btw....and were the thin edge of the wedge for opening trade with China which led to the Opium Wars....16:47, 30 April 2008 (UTC)


Those were all guesswork, sometimes stated that way in a source; and assumed for US-based ships; never knew quite when to use MV and found out RMV pre-empts all else, and so on, all since....fix anything you see there....I do have the Komagata Maru on therere, don't I?Skookum1 (talk) 03:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Gray at Nootka

This is what I couldn't remember at the sandbox/talk - re your comment about Gray being ignored because he was American - a "Continental" and also, no, the archetypal Boston man? it would make an interesting little playlet, a meeting between Gray and Vancouver; the latter an aristocrat and royal patriot with good manners but probably disaste for the rebel captain; the US was so new-born now it would have een like having someone from a fringe party show up at at national convention; i.e. Vancouver and Quadra manifested empires, Gray only a set of colonies that were less than twenty years from the "British yoke". I'd say he was a blip on Vancouver's horizon, socially anyway, and anathema to associate much with. Often thought a dinner party scene with Maquinna, Vancouver and Quadra would make great high theatre....Skookum1 (talk) 03:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Kuykendall FYI

See Ralph Simpson Kuykendall You probably already know about him; the great divide of the border has kept him off my radar, I just happened to find him while wiki searching "James Colnett" to see what was out there; he has a paper on Colnett way down in the very impressive publications list....wish we had somebody as thorough about the PacNW as he appeaers to have been about Hawaii.Skookum1 (talk) 14:36, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Princess Royal DYK

Updated DYK query On 8 May, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Princess Royal (sloop), which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--Daniel Case (talk) 13:01, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

King Island (British Columbia)

Congrats on the DYK thingamawhatzit. Referring King Island (British Columbia), which I just added the Nuxalk name for, to your good island-article-making offices; also we should consider a ranking list of islands on the BC coast by size and population, no?Skookum1 (talk) 14:43, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

resource link

Just clearing out my open tabs by storing/sending various links so I don't lose track, or they go where they're most useful; I thought maybe this article might have some content useful for various island/coast articles. Note Dzawadli, which I've put notice on OMR that he shoudl write ;-): Nature Conservancies established recentlySkookum1 (talk) 15:01, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

the things you find on BCGNIS (minor Spanish placenames)

I was looking up Labouchere for you; I think it's a ship or a British officer....and in the process found Labouchere Passage, down by Nanaimo, and a link to Dibuxante Point which looked suspiciously Spanish and indeed it was; Josef Cordero I think also is the source of the name Cardero, most well-known to Vancouverites as a street in the West End. Dibuxante Point is not notable enough to warrant an article, but Cordero/Cardero is at some point....minor tidbits like this is why List of Spanish placenames in the Pacific Northwest (Coast) is maybe a good idea.Skookum1 (talk) 12:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Found a Leche Point, too.....obviously Spanish ("milk"), I'd think.Skookum1 (talk) 13:09, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
About Labouchere, which I know I've seen something on somewhere recently (but not on a direct lookup in BCGNIS, which has "no origin notes at this time" - must have been a side-reference in another BCGNIS listing...), not only are there Labouchere Passage and Labouchere Channel, in Alaska there's a community/bay Labouchere Bay; all the same name-origin I'd think; looks from a basic Wiki search on that name to be that of a British lord-cum-cabinet official at the time, just not sure which one.Skookum1 (talk) 13:13, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Jose Ferrer de Maldonado

Hi; see this and follow the link and look for the chapter; Admiral Bartholomew de Fonte, maybe Bartolomeo de Fonte, is also discussed as are details about de Fuca.....there's a tidbit about Malaspina being sent north to look for the Straits of Maldonado, also....Skookum1 (talk) 14:55, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Pig War Map

Terrific job. Not only does it make the whole situation clear, but if someone looks at it, they can see that the natural route, where the border was supposed to be, was not chosen. Oh well. Thanks for doing it. --KenWalker | Talk 02:16, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Ditto; on a similar tack would both of you please visit the talkpage at Alaska Boundary Dispute and see the last section re the Dixon Entrance/A-B Line....(ps nice map on 'Namgis First Nation tooSkookum1 (talk) 02:20, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
The maps at Dixon Entrance could be improved. --KenWalker | Talk 02:34, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

HMS Sutlej

There's an HMS Sutlej (1899) article but nothing for earlie4r vessels. I became interesetd in this this morning because the Bella Coola ferry terminal is at Sutlej Point, opposite Tallheo, British Columbia, which I just wrote. Theres' no name/history in BCGNIS but I found this which is surprisingly thorough despite some very-unPC wording about natives being "pirates" and the use of "Amerindians" in the text. See the menu at left on that page for other tidbits, as well as the previous pages associated with the linked one, which has further on the Sutlej. I would have started the article but haven't found anything on when the vessel was built so HMS Sutlej (18xx) remains unstarted.Skookum1 (talk) 17:17, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Wanted to add, as occurred to me while I was out on chores, that it's surprising the number of native-Royal Navy and native-marine fur trader conflicts, as you'll discover looking through that military history site. List of conflicts in Canada I've added a few BC "wars" too (Rock Creek, Rossland, Wild Horse Creek being non-conflicts that almost were...) and wondered about how to address the many incidents of violent conflict on the coast; you'll note on that page I linked to the Destruction of Opitsaht by Gray; the Sutlej's destruction of Marktosis was in the same league, and I'd forgotten about the other RN engagements in the it is I've been putting off writing Lamalcha War (1863) as it's very complicated and needs the full roster of local First Nations written up; the military history website's description of "pirates" is kinda apt for the Lamalcha, whom Terry Glavin has described to me as "the bikers of the Gulf"; but in other cases thte military history record seems to avoid decribing Edenshaw and others as "enemy leaders" and talks about their cooptation into cooperation by show of force; it's Canada's way of staying in denial that there were never any real Indian Wars up here; in reality the Coast of BC was subdued by force; the Interior somewhat more by diplomacy, other than the Fraser Canyon War (which was settled by diplomacy, though freelance instead of official). Anyway, just thoughts; I know you're busy, but if you happen to turn up a date for the Sutlej let me know and I'll start a stub and post it to the WPShips and Royal Navy work areas; I think it may have been the 1st of that name, so HMS Sutlej might be able to be the title-article.Skookum1 (talk) 19:07, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
The military history site also reminded me that rather just the Royal Navy in the NW list page an actual article summarizing the Pacific Squadron's deployment and actions along hte Coast is needed; there's so many ships, so many incidents....Skookum1 (talk) 19:12, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
There is a disambiguation page at HMS Sutlej, and the ship you are thinking of is at HMS Sutlej (1855). Even if a ship is the first to bear that name, it would still need to be disambiguated by a launch date or a pennant number, as the ship list page for that name would be at the undisambiguated ship name. Benea (talk) 21:33, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

FYI HMS America

Thought you might find it interesting; I'll be linking the same chapter, all of it, to the Oregon boundary dispute talkpage and article, and have a look at my recent edits there and associated talkpage comments ;-|. Later, it's a semi-nice day and I should maybe clean my room ;-).Skookum1 (talk) 16:50, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Masset conferred by Spaniards

And here I always thought it was a purely Haida hereditary/potlatched name, but note this from Masset, British Columbia:

The name Masset was a gift from the Captain of a Spanish vessel that was repaired with the assistance of the Haida citizens of Atewaas, Kayung and Jaaguhl. These three villages accepted the gift and adopted the name Masset to commemorate what might be the first ever contact

Any idea which ship/captain? I'll get back to you about the Oregon boundary/Bob Gray stuff later, just getting up now.Skookum1 (talk) 14:33, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Labouchere (paddle steamer) FYI

Not sure what else you might ahve to add; bio articles on namesake family/company seem called form but mostly English history (see google for this name).Skookum1 (talk) 22:42, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, and DYK

Thanks for the message on my talk page. Also, did you knotice you just created a redundant DYK nom on the Nootka Crisis -- I'm going to move mine into the section with yours, not sure which is the better hook, but they should at least be near each other! -Pete (talk) 01:01, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Kwakwaka'wakw subgroups map

Hi; found a great breakdown of kwakwaka'wakw "political geography" at the U'Mista Cultural Centre website; go to this page and you'll see the map, which is a javascript popup so I can't link it here (or don't know how to do that). Still can't figure out Nahwitti/newitty, awaiting reply from OMR about that; the Nakwaxdax are listed as being frmo Blunden Harbour, not on the north tip of Vancouver Island, so I'm wanting to know what the difference is, or if it's simply a relocation. But otherwise a great map, and i wish the Nuu-chah-nulth could bnring themselves to do this (without going to war with each other....).Skookum1 (talk) 21:16, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh, that is a nice map. I was able to get the direct URL, -- by control-clicking the popped-up window and choosing "Copy image location" from the pop-up menu (Mac and Firefox, like you). Just fyi. Pfly (talk) 21:36, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Good to know.....that's the first native-written site I've seen which mentions extinct subgroups/tribes, by the way; the Kwakwaka'wakw seem to be a bit more open than other groups, or U'Mista is anyway. User:KenWalker gave me the heads-up on some vanished Clayoquot Sound group, for example, which I've never seen the websites of the surviving group own up to the existence of (possibly because they helped exterminate them....)....I'll send you a pdf I found on the Kwakwaka'wakw which is pretty blunt about their expansion - in hte "early historical period" (early 19th Cnetury, not much ealier as I had thought) to Quatsino Sound and down into Quadra/Campbell River; btw look on OMR's talk page on the "You're gonna love these" section I added and check out Comox's old graveyard figures....Skookum1 (talk) 21:42, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Nootka Crisis

Updated DYK query On 25 May, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Nootka Crisis, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--BorgQueen (talk) 17:00, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

The Dixon-Meares Controversy

Found this and thought you might be interested.....Skookum1 (talk) 14:31, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

SS Ships etc.

When I created that page I used "SS" as a way of designating ship-redlinks; many edits since have changed the entries when the relevant article got made; so ignore 'em, and no reason to comment on 'em in the comments field; just change the entry. Almost all entries of the first verrsiojn(s) of this page were c rated by cribbing anything in italics in the indiices of the Akrigg's British Columbia Chronicle, both vols. As for the Golden Hind(e) I saw your inline comment - the thing is it's near-and-dear to imperial sentiment that Drake may have visited BC, and that Nova Albion was a bigger place than just wherever in Cali or OR might be "proven". yes, it's apocryphal - but so in not quite so apocryphal a was was de Fuca's visit....Anyway in the comments field "alleged to have visited the BC Coast" or jsut ref New Albion....see my comments at Talk:New Albion also. Hmmm there was something else about the ships list, it'll come back to me I guess, taht i saw when reviewing your recent changes. Oh, in the new F.W.Howay link at Talk:Edward Stamp there's mention of the HBC barque Princess I remember - re the North West America (sloop) should the Santa Gertrudis or whatever just be a rediect to it, or should it have a separate article for its time under the Spanish flag?Skookum1 (talk) 19:53, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

The listpage entry for the Santa Gertrudis re the North West America is the Santa Gertrudis La Magna - is that the same ship? The link is hidden/piped.....Skookum1 (talk) 19:58, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
postscript from the other night re your reply on my talkpage: yes, small-case "l" on la Magna. Who was St. Gertrude the Great anyway? An oddly Dutch form of the name to see on a Spanish ship....Skookum1 (talk) 03:44, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Masset Inlet

I haven't created Masset Sound or Masset Harbour yet (unless the harbour already has an article, which it may) but thought to give you a heads-up on the Masset Inlet article, which I created as a spinoff making Yakoun River, Slatechuck Mountain, Slatechuck Creek; can't remember where the tidbit on the Spanish-source name was, maybe BCGNIS but I hate how long that site takes to load (database sites can be like that....). You may have found some mention also in your readings of when the first outsider penetrated into it; Old Masset, "the Haida metropolis", guards its entrance frrom the sea so I'd imagine whoever made the first sally into its inner reaches would haev had to be on good terms with the Haida (or fully gunned....).Skookum1 (talk) 03:44, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Shout Out

Thanks for all your great images! Northwesterner1 (talk) 18:34, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Cumshewa Inlet

That shouldn't be redlinked ina few mninutes; I've been writing Cumshewa-related articles since looking up some mines and logging camps that had been located's amazing how many mines/company towns there were on the Charlottes btw, something I didn't know....anyway please see Talk:Cumshewa, British Columbia as there's mentioned of the massacre of the crew of the American ship Resolution (ship), which may or may not have an article depending on the disambig possibilities....also re the blockquote thing for BCGNIS info; I think we can just copy-paste that stuff, when appropriate or appropriate parts of it anyway; if I find something from the Jesup expedition I'll just quote it as a quote from there, but I'm starting to think that quoting BCGNIS straight over is fair game; and oh so much easier than cribbing and tweaking to avoid copyvio.....I guess you're close to the hatching experience, which explains your relative inactivity....looking for the happy tidings any day now right?Skookum1 (talk) 03:01, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Yep, today, June 1, 12:24 AM. All's well but for tired and busy! Pfly (talk) 19:50, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Blue booties or pink booties?Skookum1 (talk) 20:08, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Another F.W. Howay book

Hi; just found this which looks like it will have lots of maritime and fur trade history; trying to find pop stats for various tribes, Howay mentions some in the other books of his I've looked at, prob. in this one also.Skookum1 (talk) 15:19, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Koyah and Kendrick 4 U

I was researching Ninstints and foudn this which if you haven't seen it has some juicy stuff on Kendrick; surprising for the DictCanBiogOnline to have a native gio for BC; they'r rarek Klatassine may have one maybe, also maybe [[someone else but not Maquinna, I looked (surprising). I "was" planning a series of articles on Haida chiefs, but just sotrting out the villages is proving tough enough; I'm thinking a List of Haida villages would help because of all the different names for them. But in reality I'm facing a wikibreak again, as it's only one topic area I have tons of articles I could spend all my time doing and not get at getting the what's got to be gotten etc. Making a living doing what I gotta do etc. Wiki is bottomless as you know; I meant to get at teh steamboats befgore I split, maybe I'll at least get the Thompson-Shuswap article done up plus the necessary enrichments to Big Bend Gold Rush and other articles (again, bottomless given the number of bios and places interconnected...). Also the goldfields towns of my area, the Bridge River Country, and of the Cariboo. Too damn much history and geograaphy -a famous old line about Canada is that it has "too much geography and not enough history". But it's got lots of history, huh? I'm still bound to the place, thousands of miles away at the other end of the country; but realistically unless I find a way to fund all this activity I'm gonna have to tear off again; I'l be back some time, when the time comes (I'm not gone yet) but just a heads-up that it's coming soon. My music's not quite like your new kid, but the time/energy commitment's got to be on the sam orde for it, and me, to work....anyway g'nite.Skookum1 (talk) 04:55, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

west of the Rockies

It's always amused me the gaffes that Oregon Imperialists make; on the one hand asserting ownership up to 54-40, and then knowing nothing about the area they claim; Fort McLeod is the oldest, 1805, and is south of 54-40. And no less a NWC establishment than Fort Astoria. The term "English-speaking is a bit awkward; the forts operated in a mix of CJ, French and Scots English (plus Kanaka and who knows what else...). Ft St. John by the way is east of the Rockies, though in BC (that northeastern sector is part of the Prairies). TW anythying you come across about other specific Kanaks or Kanaka ctivity/settlement, please put links on teh [Kanakas]] talkpage; I'm intending on finally splitting that before I wikibreak again; Kanaka (Oceania) and Kanaka (North America); the Australasian editors on that page behave much as certin Oregon editors do; it's "their topic" and I can only be wrong beucase they know it's derisive and can't see it any other way....sigh; Koppel's book on the Kanakas is interesting though a bit soppy by thew ay.Skookum1 (talk) 12:46, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Donald McLean (fur trader)

I finally wrote this, but not as more than a cribbing from DictCanBio and there's heaps more to put in; it's just his name comes up so much it was time to at least start an article. You'll come across stories about him in refs to the coastal forts, esp. McLoughlin I think; please addd anything you find; his son Allan McLean (outlaw) I haven't gotten to yet; might be better to do one for the whole pack of 'em "The Wild McLean Boys" (see John Tannatt Ussher); another fur trader article needed is Donald Manson and sooner or later we're gonna have to pen Chief Trader etc articles....anyway enjoy "Samadlin", he's one of the more interesting characters in pre-Confederation BC history.Skookum1 (talk) 19:06, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Well done, a needed article. --KenWalker | Talk 19:18, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


I know you deleted that section, along with ==Art music==, but you didn't anwser my question. Would you please anwser my questions? (talk) 21:26, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Relief from diaper rash?

Hi there; no doubt you have your hands full, and probably a bit stinky too ;-). Other than ref'ing you to my usercontributions I thought you might find the User_talk:KenWalker#brigade_trails discussion on Ken's page re the BCGNIS info on Cache Creek (info creek)] and the history of the Brigade Trail(s). Off to the gym....Skookum1 (talk) 23:10, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Patos Island

Before it provokes an international dispute (grin), I thought I should alert you to the fact that Patos Island would be Canadian on your San Juan dispute map. I came across it looking at Gough map, much like yours, following page 152. The layout matches yours in terms of which sides of the line the islands are on with this one exception. Basically the green line, rather than swinging left at the top goes up between Patos Island and Sucia Island to meet the red line rather than the blue one. It is a great map, but . . . --KenWalker | Talk 07:52, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Hey, I'll take what we can get; never mind the realty value I've been looking for an "island in the stream" for a long time. Man the longships, call in the war canoes, hoist the poopdeck, it's time to challenge the historic injustics of the Oregon Treaty and pull a Lyman Cutler-in-reverse and land on the island, shoot a pig, and hoist the Union Jack and talk about liberty as loudly as possible for the networks. I'd at least get some press coverage, before and after the trip to Guantanamo or Leavenworth or wherever you'd wind up at, and the money from selling the story I could just go buy an island with near Bora Bora or off Brazil or whatever. Anyway, off mapmaker's mistakes are born the seeds of "we don't care if it was a cartographer's error, it's ours now" - the logic applied to Point Roberts, the Angle, Dixon Entrance and that Hans Island place. Anyway, if one-man island-takings were good enough for Lyman Cutler, it's good enough for me.;-). Skookum1 (talk) 16:11, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Hehe, yes I ceded the island to Canada, oops! There are no pigs on Patos Island, but a kayaker could end up shot, triggering the Kayak War. ..I'll get around to fixing the map someday, for kayak's sake! Oh and we don't send freedom fighters (er I mean terrorists, yes) to Leavenworth, Washington; that would be a fate worse than Gitmo! Pfly (talk) 16:59, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
What about shooting a duck, given the island's name? The Duck War.Skookum1 (talk) 17:51, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Maybe if I claimed it for Nunavut and put up an Inukshuk? Other than being accused of cooptation I might also get a nice splashy lawsuit from the Olympics, which coopted the inukshuk before I did....and I think I was meaning Leavenworth, Kansas - or is there a prison in Leavenworth WA also?Skookum1 (talk) 17:46, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Speaking of this kind of thing, you strike me as having been around these parts long enough to know what the Salmon War was in teh '90s; I've put off writing it for a long time but given your oh-so-equananimous Yankee contributions to BC articles/debates I think you're gonna be good to have around to keep balance on the article and in the debates; tempering my rhetorical excesses, as it were, but it's a given that a US-side contributor will be needed for that article. It googles up fairly well, I just haven't had the stomach to wade into it.....Skookum1 (talk) 17:50, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Leavenworth, WA: No, just a faux Bavarian village. And I wasn't here in the 90s but in Denver and New York City. Got here in 2001. I don't know much about the Salmon War. I have a couple books that probably have some info on it. Pfly (talk) 21:34, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
this New York Times article gives a good rundown, though a bit soft-soaped and without the jusiciest rhetoric; the M/V Malaspina article doesn't (so far) mention all this business; I wonder if there's anything on teh Slade Gorton or Frank Murkowski articles; I know there's not on Glen Clark or Gary stuff, the NYT thing came up first in a basic google search, there seems to be lots out there. The NDP didn't make any friends stateside during that, and it may ahve contributed to their downfall by riling up American supporters of what has become the BC Liberal regime "as we know it today".Skookum1 (talk) 05:22, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Bits and pieces are coming back to me - there were seizures of Victoria-based whale-watching boats around reefs in the area of the boundary; whether or not they were on the US side of the line, that's actually a violation of the terms of the Oregon Treaty, which guaranteed right of passage for all commercial shipping south of the 49th Parallel; not that any BC govt lawyers caught that, or any federal lawyers were watching or even aware of teh treaty's particular's.....Skookum1 (talk) 05:26, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Bavarian Kitsch is a blight on the architectural landscape of wilderness-community British Columbia; never been to Kimberley but I've seen enough around the Lillooet Country and Whistler and the Cariboo - "alpine architecture" or whatever; the pub in Seton Portage is often listed in realty ads and is the same kind of building; the French or Norwegian style cabins you'd find in some areas are different, and generally older; in the Liloooet there's a particualr style of "square-notch" log cabin; and Pemberton VAlley used to have these huge Nordic-style barns....but the Germans need that stucco and gingerbread and sometimes the big florals; so out of place, so weird, but ah well....better than Ronnie MacD's I guess....I'll have to try and gig out a pic of the first Mines Hotels in Bralorne, incredibly gable-work; if you happen to see The Great Years: Gold Mining in the Bridge River Valley" by Lewis Green, pick it up and buy it without hesitattion; you'll be amazed; pics of the old hotel are in there, along with a lot else. Anyway dropped by about:

Pasayten River

I'd like to start this but I can't even give it a full length easily because of the two-map issue cross-border; I seem to recall your data set crosses the border, or you found one that did; this is one of the last rivers in the boundary area between the Gulf and the Rockies to not have at least a stub, and it's relatively famous because of teh Pasayten Wilderness which has a lost-and-forgotten feel on teh US-side of the border, I gather; it's the back-end of the Princeton area, not all that inaccessible and I'm sure the loggers there have bveen eyeing it greedily for years ;-). Anyway I'll start up the raw-est stub {rawest looked really funny without the hyphen, no?) and hope you can somehow help me with calculations on its length.Skookum1 (talk) 03:32, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Ah! I've been to the Pasayten Wilderness.. or at least along its edges. Found a major patch of morels growing in a patch of forest recently subjected to prescribed burning. That wasn't quite in the wilderness-- too close to the road. The area is interesting. I think it is often thought about as a kind of wilderness extension of North Cascades National Park. I'll help with a page on the river as best I can. Free time is rather rare these days, and usually short. Plus we are about to embark on an insane road trip with two little kids to Glacier National Park in Montana. So, my ability to contribute may take a while. Pfly (talk) 06:23, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
If you see a skookum doll in a truckstop or a park souvenir shop, snap one up, or at least snap a photo of it and steal a brochure (see Skookum).Skookum1 (talk) 02:25, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
And if you see an old cafe or diner in one of the little towns along I-90 through the mountains that says "Chinese and Weetern" or "Chinese American" cuisine or the like - the old standard style w. egg roll and six specials menu - snap a pic for American Chinese cuisine, i.e. a classic "old time" Americanized-Chinese food place; those articles have been overwhelmed by haute cuisine type writing and dishes now served in North America and there's been some issue for a while about having an article for the North Americanized variety (which gets slagged, or did, on the respective Canadian and American aritcles). A picture of such a cafe sign and an image of the menu would go a long way to getting such an article off the ground, though what it would be called still isn't settled on - Chinese and Western Cuisine is my preference because I've seen that phrasing so much; or Western and Chinese cuisine, either way; ideally the menu has burger, salisbury steak, roast turkey sandwich and liver'n'onions on the oppostie page of the menu from the six specials. The Chinese smorgasbord was invented in the Pacific Northwest, although I think as with Skid Road there's a debate as to whether it was Gastown/Granville(Vancouver) or Seattle where the Swedes and Norewgians first had their Chinese cook lay out dishes Nordic-style.....Skookum1 (talk) 02:32, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Quick re: I didn't realize there was uncertainty over where the term Skid Row came to be used for an urban neighborhood instead of the older logging sense. Thought it originated in Seattle, but then I live here so probably get biased information. I just checked the book Native Seattle, which says it comes from Seattle (and oop, I thought the author was from Seattle.. and he may be, but the dust jacket says he is a professor at the University of British Columbia). I think he gets this info from Murray Morgan's 1951 book Skid Row. In any case, an interesting bit is that Seattle's Skid Row neighborhood, basically today's Pioneer Square, was the site of the one of the main native villages in the area, "Little Crossing-Over Place". "Long before" Yesler's sawmill was built there were "great cedar longhouses" there. Then, before the Seattle's great fire of 1889 burned it all down, the neighborhood around the sawmill became known as the "Lava Beds", notorious not only for its brothels and.. well Skid Row qualities, but also for being populated mainly by Indians (and eventually Chinese). After the fire the neighborhood was reborn, basically the same except with more stone and less wood, and known as Pioneer Square instead of the Lava Beds. At one point the book says, "long after Yesler's sawmill had burned, Pioneer Place became, for a while at least, the heart of an urban Indian community whose members eked out a living in the district of flophouses and taverns that birthed the term "skid row". But apparently this meaning of "skid row" came well into the 20th century, so maybe Vancouver's was the first so called. I don't know, but thought you might find it interesting that Seattle's Skid Row was a native village and for a long time one of the main neighborhoods for "urban Indians" in... well, the US at least. A good book; and although focused on Seattle often looks far north, to British Columbia and Alaska, as Seattle became a gathering place for natives throughout the larger region. Ok, to bed now. Pfly (talk) 05:22, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Munin (longship)

I feel obliged to do this one; I'm a non-member of the Scandinavian Centre in Burnaby and had showed interest in this vessel, but couldn't keep up with getting down there to row all the time; it's moored at the Maritime Museum. Anyway not sure how to keep all the possible content under control yet still produce a "notable"-satisfying article; have a look [h here] and make sure you look at the photo gallery, pretty cool; I'm posting this on OldManRiver's page as a "Norwegian war canoe". We didn't have potlatches, but the floorshow at Norse feasts was probably close; especially in the archaic period...whatever; just thinking of this as an article....Skookum1 (talk) 03:41, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


What does "music grammars" mean: Thanks. (talk) 11:25, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Tried to answer on your talk page. Pfly (talk) 21:56, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Begg, no - pleed!

Just a pun; I found Alexander Begg's works online at site earlier and wound up reading *Report relative to the Alaska Boundary Question, submitted to the Hon. J.H. Turner, Minister of Finance etc. etc. (sic), 15 August, 1896., Alexander Begg, Victoria, British Columbia: R. Wolfenden, 1896 Tasty, tasty, tasty. Not related to our maritime geography/history work so much but I know you'll find it interesting; there may be lots of useful stuff in his "annexures" (appendices). At some point a List of notable historians of British Columbia might be worthwhile, though hard to keep the riff-raff out maybe but all's fair in love and wiki, no? His History of British Columbia from its earliest discovery to the present time (1894)] looks promising and will no doubt be more readable than J.B. Kerr's Biographical Sketches (see Francis Jones Barnard for a link to that). For WP Mines and WP Ghost towns I hit the jackpot BC-wise - The directory of mines (corrected and published quarterly) : a guide for the use of investors and others interested in the mines of British Columbia (1897) including a list of the then-Gold Commissioners. Wow. There's way too much even in the first-linked item for me to put to full use in Wiki; I'm going to be spending a lot of time reading; nice to have found this stuff; wish it was copy-pastable, haven't tried OCRing it.... is a great site btw....Skookum1 (talk) 03:36, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

HMS Racoon

Finally made it, after finding more in Begg, cited it with S&H also; probably more, maybe RN Task Force types will find ship-origin and data; think Begg has the no. of guns, will get back to that. Diplomatic complications are too much for the starter article, and I need b reakfast.....HMS Blossom should also get done, mabye I'll dig out enough out of these books; Begg's lighter than Scholefield & Howay but sitill eminently readable; their "contemporary" chapters about the 1880s and 1890s are industry-promotional hucksterism boosting railways and mines, but that, too, is useful....Skookum1 (talk) 15:29, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I put the Oregon template and history cat on it; we should have Category:History of the Pacific Northwest jmaybe; it kind of irks me that locations like Astoria and Colville and Ft Vancouver, which are part of BC's history don't carry the History of BC cat or the CAnBC tempalte;;;;;maybe they should as former territories of what is now BC?Skookum1 (talk) 15:31, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Walbran online

Turns out has Walbran's British Columbia Coast Names online; it's a source often quoted by BCGNIS, among other parties.....Skookum1 (talk) 17:15, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Interesting little list

Hey check this out - Walbran's chronological list of "principal voyages" to what is now the British Columbia Coast; includes some names I haven't seen before and is curiously missing all the Russians. Adding dates to the List of ships in British Columbia will add to the date-sortablity of the talbe there, but I'm wondering about a general chronology-list for the early period...Skookum1 (talk) 20:43, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

something to print out

This is the report of the Spicer Commission], aka the Crown Commission chaired by Keith Spicer, former head of the CBC as I remember, in the Oka era; there was a lot of hopeful talk at these hearings, set amidst the muck and mire of Meech and Oka. Nothing relevant to our mutual work around here but I know you're interested in learning about Canada; this is the vox populi, not the official line pushed by media, academics and pundits; I'll be re-reading it myself; actually I watched the hearings. Now if I can only find a TV special from the '70s called People Talking Back....gotta get on somebody's ass to upload it to youtube - Trudeau told the CBC "do community-input programming or get your budget cut" — so they did this; the next day Trudeau doubled their budget and told them never to do it again. It was a national town-hall meeting, in the country that gave rise to McLuhan; velly velly intellesting...Obama-ism seems to come off some of hte same energy; an energy which in Canada has either been derailed or hijacked by ideologies....Skookum1 (talk) 21:48, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


Hey there,

I know your very good with computer music, since you gave me such great answers and I was wondering, if can do everything Max-MSP can do and more? Thanks so much; I appreciate it! (talk) 09:30, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Replied at your talk page. Pfly (talk) 16:15, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Here, as an example, I thought my understanding was that as long as you have a program that can change a wave, you could create any sound you want, and adjusting the duration, you can create any music you want. If this was so, then wouldn't it have made Max-MSP obsolete? (talk) 07:00, 15 July 2008 (UTC) (talk) 07:01, 15 July 2008 (UTC) (talk) 07:01, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Welcome back

I know you're not back yet (it's the 25th) but leaving this here for your enjoyment/use when you get back - F.W. Howay's List of ships in the maritime Fur Trade; I found it while trying to read up on the Ukase of 1821 - see this (starting on p. 14) about that; Bering Sea Arbitration, as you'll learn, has a lot of work to be done and maybe like Nootka there should be a separate Bering Sea Crisis (contemporanoue with the Great Eastern Crisis of 1878 involving Russia, Turkey, Britain and others; the US being a Russian client-state/ally in the region at the time). Let me know by email when you're back; I rented a Zoom H4 mp3 recorder and have lots of new stuff; tinkly-happy and raging, thundering hurricanous stuff (from one to the other sometimes barely with a breath between...). One book I know you should look out for is The Last Great Sea by Terry Glavin, a history of the North Pacific Ocean; Terry's a pal but I'm not trying to sell his book; I think you'd find it interesting, and a different take on the usual sort of thing (Transmontanus Books, Vancouver).Skookum1 (talk) 04:22, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh, you are back; found out that the Howay shiplist has 1795-1804 also: and is part of a course; an online course maybe, I'll look into it. Lots of ownership, tonnage etc details; I could get at it, but I'm still trying to focus on assimilating stuff about the boundary/jurisditinoal disputees; mostly amending current articles so far but at some point the magnum opus is an expansion fo the boundary dispute articles with explanations of the British positions and the technicalities of the Spanish and Russian claims/inheritances taken up by the US; so no time for ship-nesses other than watching and fixing here and there; lots of nice links on the History of Washington article/s resource section....anyway more later, I have to hit the hay. What's better for changing nappies - tinkly Mozartian/Cockburnian quasi-folk/trance or driving, biting acid rock/jazz? - let me know I'll send you some....Skookum1 (talk) 04:53, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Satimage for use as basemap

Was looking up a better image of Silverthrone Caldera and its region for Black Tusk and found a "Wow!" - how 'bout this one, huh? for all kinds of things; regions especially, all clear; little bit of globe/aerial distortion but not unusuable (esp. compared to the N-S distortion of the RD maps). More than useful for various regional closeup maps and island/lake/town/river locators and stuff; I'll do a cutaway for Queen Charlotte Strait but the clarity on this one is great, could be used as a general map, doncha think?Skookum1 (talk) 04:41, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Just to note, as a lifelong BCer used to seeing mountains on maps where everything is, it's really odd and disorienting to see RD boundaries used as if they had geographic meaning; the context of BC is inherently mountains that defy human boundaries, which is one reason a lot of the RD boundaries don't make sense in the first place; but a glance at this is instantly recognizable for those familiar to the province's roadmap and tourist literature; a terrain map says it all. It's an issue I hesitate to take up with WPCanada because of the relative rigidity of guideilnes and "categorical inertia"; see the new bottom section on the BC Wikiproejct for more on that, I don't have the stomach to relate it now; just wanted to share the image; good for stateside illustration too.....Skookum1 (talk) 04:46, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Source page for same; added here for its search and categories....Skookum1 (talk) 04:48, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Salvador Fidalgo and Neah Bay

Just found this which should prove useful; subpage of this; hopefully those maps can be publick-domained ;-). If there was a name for Fidalgo's fort given I'd make a stub for it; other stuff there is the 1603 discovery of the Columbia, purportedly, by Martin Aguilar....and other interesting stuff; have to look at hte other periods; what a rich resource, so much more useful and interesting/educational than BC Archives or the RBCM stuff (well is pretty good for authorship, but it's still limited in some ways.Skookum1 (talk) 05:05, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Not surprised your article is there; did your source name the fort? Thinking that various refs to Nootka Sound being hte only Spanish installation north of San Blas be revised....(on History of the west coast of North America, for instance, I think there's such a mention).Skookum1 (talk) 05:10, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Oregon Country cat

Hi please see Category talk:Oregon Country and add your two bits when you get a chance.Skookum1 (talk) 16:21, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

My chances will be few and short for a while yet, due to post-trip craziness. But keep talking and I'll get to responding better sooner or later! Pfly (talk) 00:17, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Yet another

Inside Passage currently has an Alaska-only map; don't have a comparable one for the BC stretch; ideally it should run from Seattle north and maybe because of the distance should be in htree section-maps instead of one big one, which won't show detail enough IMO.....I know I know sorry to even ask; I'm just noting it here as with events proceeding I may be back on my erstwhile wikibreak again later in August and just trying to tidy up (and raise hell and mayhem before I'm gone; see Template talk:Oregon Early History. Why can't I just be nice? I don't know, I do try.....Skookum1 (talk) 22:11, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Spokane, Colville and the Sinixt

Re your Spokane House edits - they prompted me to return to the Sinixt article and do this edit; there's too much conflation in the Sinixt article over all; it was even worse in the Tyee article cited and the pro- cmoments in the forum there. I've been threatened to not interfere with the Sinixt any furhter "or else", which is of course a great way to get me to be more interested in their article than ever before. The confabulation of the world revolving around them - in the Tyee article it was claimed that the colonization of hte Kootenays/Columbia River took palce especially to get them (because the evil white capitalists knew of hte great spiritual power of the Sinixt, and their role as Mother Pople of the Salish yadayadayada....), and in this case it's made to sound like they were major players in the fur trade, the boundary dispute, and the reason the HBC (NWC?) moved to Colville from Spokane. yeah, sure. Anyway I removed the one bit I had the fact template on, then looked at that opening sentence and went "whoa!". What was built to keep the Sinixt happy was Fort Shepherd; but my experience with these folks is they don't have clear idea of history; in the Tyee article and responses they blamed HBCers for things like genital scalping and smallpox blankets, things that never happened north of the border; I think this confusion of Shepherd and Colville might be part of the same story. KootenayVolcano, who's been editing Sinixt quite a bit, has been making a lot of "friendly" edits and "credulous" edits based on the "wisdom of the elders", as if their word was law and better than what white hsitoreis have to say; it would be, if only they remembered things right; they clearly don't. Anyway any fixes or replacements to what I jsut did on Sinixt are welcome; I'm tired of hot-potato politics; our friend OMR's Skwxwu7mesh articles are full of very POV stuff, though not as confabulous as the Sinixt stuff.....Skookum1 (talk) 16:49, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I know next to nothing about the Sinixt, so probably can't do much there. At least there are people interested in working on the page, credulously or not. I'm often struck by the large number of Indian/indigenous pages that are bare bones with no one apparently willing or able to even try to work on, which is sad. I've also noticed a lot of POV and oral history type sourcing on many such pages that do have some content. Sometimes the indigenous histories are quite in conflict with more... scholarly history (for want of a better word). Sometimes the history is so lost and jumbled that there are no really strong reliable sources. The Lumbee might be an example, with oral history verging into original research being probably not worse than some of the existing "scholarly" sources, the older ones often being amazingly racist. ...Anyway, the Sinixt history wrt the fur trade examples you give sound a bit much. It would be good to include more info about the roles the natives played in the history. They usually get only a kind of footnote mention at best. I'm guilty myself of sometimes skipping over native-related historical stuff. Perhaps I should try to get to some of that next. There's a number of things related to Thompson and the fur trading system I just read about. But for now I gotta go "play in the beans". Pfly (talk) 18:12, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Fort Spokane

I'd first found this more in ref to a US military fort and had the pages tabbed for quite a while, until my roomie closed the browser window they were on (a couple of months ago). Not sure if exactly the same site, but at the same location. See this and this; the latter is more credibly written, the former also uses "Camp Spokane".Skookum1 (talk) 05:08, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Willamette Trading Post

I don't want to weigh in on that talkpage, got too much on the boil; but shouldn't its title be "Willamette trading post" or "Willamette post" without hte capitalization; it wasn't an "official" post-name, was it? Just "thte post in the Willamette"? Caps infers that this was the HBC's official name for it....Skookum1 (talk) 13:45, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't know. Maybe that is the name it is known by today. Some of these posts seem to have had... loose and variable names. There might not be an official name from HBC times. After realizing that that page isn't about the "Willamette" post mentioned by Meinig I'm a bit at a lost about posts in the Willamette Valley. I suspect there may have been several with changing locations over time, probably small. I don't think there was a great quantity of furs to be had in the area. But I don't really know. On the other hand I broke down and ordered the "Fur Trade Over the Mountains" book, or whatever its called. Should be lots of info in there. I finished the Thompson book so now I need another dry book on an obscure topic. Pfly (talk) 15:59, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
I prefer entertaining books on obscure topics; Begg's rants on the Alaska boundary I find really fun, actually, although difficult to fit into the "British" position re Alaska (there were three camps, Victoria's, Ottawa's and London's; the US side was aided by a lack of unity on the British one). Might as well offer here the idea that you should read Cole Harris' The Resettlement of British Columbia, which has a lot in it relevant to the Pox Americana which I haven't gotten to reply to your post yet; Harris is an ideologue and gets some of his facts wrong, and is only a geographer, not a historian, but there's no more thorough stufy of indigenous population history extant. There was a lot of beaver in the Williamette, I think; might have been trapped out....must have been a lot of natives, although I haven't seen anything in the Oregon history articles about pre-Oregon colonization populations. Anyway, porridge is getting cold, I just got off a phone call from BC, gotta eat (and buddy's springing for a replacement guitar - only $140Cdn - as mine's finally hooped after one too many nights in teh rain and one too many fret-bends/gougings and machine gotta go get the new baby (same model, not fancy, still got to get a proper stage guitar at some point....Anyway recommend teh Harris book if you come across it; useful resource.Skookum1 (talk) 16:26, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
My friend Terry Glavin just recommended this which sounds rankly ideological but.....another one he's referred to me lately is by John Lutz of the University of Victoria; first word in teh title (the rests of which I've forgotten) is Makuk (p.c. spelling of mahkook, the CJ word for buy/sell/trade) and he says "puts the lie" to the idea that pre-World War II aboriginals had a hard time of it.....they were often better-off than most colonists (and I know from another source that they were often paid more than whites, as they worked harder.....certain ones got very rich from gold/prospecting also....).Skookum1 (talk) 16:49, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


No, but they did teach us "Illecillewaet", which I think I got right that time (I didn't on some article somewhere when first adding it, maybe the Columbia one....Skookum1 (talk) 03:46, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I was just funning on your edits summaries on Columbia River, like this one. It took me a while to figure out how to spell Incomappleux -- I was all ready to create the page before I realized it existed! Pfly (talk) 03:57, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
We should probably make sure alt-spellings exist as redirects, and thyere's likely to be historical variants, such as "Comaplix River" - the 'x' is pronounced despite the French-looking spelling of Incomappleux (in French pronunciation the 'x' would be silent, like in pas de deux). Thank goodness there's only one of them - no lake, glacier or twon using this spelling.....Incommapleux River and Incommappleux River and Incomapleux River I'll all make just to get us past that bit of silliness....Skookum1 (talk) 13:36, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
Good idea. The -x is pronounced? I had no idea. On the topic of confusingly named BC rivers, I still forget which is which between Spillimacheen and Similkameen, heh. Pfly (talk) 15:31, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
There's Spallumcheen, too....Similkameen is by far the best known in the public consciousness, though.Skookum1 (talk) 15:55, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
Re the S'milk's coordinates you just added, I haven't looked but if they're the ones from BCGNIS they shouldn't be; the confluence is in Washington; the convention on rivers is to give the coordinates of their terminus; maybe you already did that, just noting it; not sure about the Kettle come to think of it, if that's been done right that is....Skookum1 (talk) 18:34, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

[undent] shoulda known better that you would have seen to that; so much for not looking and double guessing; in the midst of editing/listening to tracks as well as plotting the move of all my stuff into the next room by Sunday, so kinda distracted.....Skookum1 (talk) 18:35, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Heh, yes. I wasn't sure, but the BCGNIS coordinates gave it away, listing the mouth at 49 degrees 0 minutes 0 seconds. Apparently they take after the US GNIS in that kind of misinformation. Pfly (talk) 18:54, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Nicoamen River

Just made Nicoamen River since I added it to the Thompson infobox; it's historically significant, if in a minor sort of way, as you'll see in the stub I wrote, likewise it's important as teh boudary of the Cascades in that area....not much more to add but significant enough to warrant another article; the Monte Creek "link" in the infobox goes to the community of that name currently as that's where Monte Creek redirects to - Monte Creek (British Columbia) as a geographic/river article doesn't (yet) exist but maybe should (significant transportation corridor, modern and historical).Skookum1 (talk) 19:42, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Gates River

Since you're busy with basin sizes here's another; it's the upper end of the Seton drainage; also see Haylmore Creek, I'm not sure I'll bother with Blackwater Creek (until such time as I get specifics on an infmaous Tsilhqot'in massacre of the St'at'imc community once located there.....).Skookum1 (talk) 18:34, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Geoboxes and other stuff

British Columbia, in all its Mercator Projection distorted glory!

Hi Pfly. Thanks for the kind words. I don't mind at all if you add things to North Fork John Day River. I learned how to do most of what I do with streams from User:Ruhrfisch, partly by imitating what I saw him doing with Larrys Creek. I used this information in building, with the help of others, Johnson Creek (Willamette River) and Balch Creek to FA. My Fanno Creek has been through a rigorous peer review recently and is awaiting a GA review. All of this helps prepare me for more creek articles and, maybe, helping with Columbia River. Ruhrfisch has made locator maps for 49 U.S. states and D.C.; you can find links to them near the bottom of his user page. The Washington map is at Image:Washington Locator Map.PNG, just as you thought, and, yes, once you enter the map and the coordinates for the mouth, the geobox places the red dot in the right place. I have learned from Ruhrfisch (with a couple tips from User:Kmusser) how to make watershed maps. They are time-consuming but satisfying. I haven't seen anything like the U.S. locator maps for Canada, and I think the reason is that the Canada base maps are not in the public domain. Copyright is a big issue with maps. Speaking of which, I discovered only a couple of weeks ago how handy the TopoQuest on-line map service can be. If, for example, you click on the coordinates for the source of North Fork John Day River, and then click on the TopoQuest option, you're taken directly to the USGS topographic map for the source. From there you can move grid by grid down the entire course of the stream and see lots of details like tributaries, national forests, roads, and towns. Finetooth (talk) 04:28, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi Pfly, I have asked User:VerruckteDan if he could make a Template:Geobox locator Washington - he made the Montana and many other state templates. I know in theory how to calibrate the maps, but have never done it myself. I have also had some luck with free maps from Online Map Creation and will see if I can make a BC locator map. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 10:33, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
Canada recently opened up a bunch of their data through GeoBase, it should be possible to do a lot of Canadian maps that previously had been legally questionable. Kmusser (talk) 12:46, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
Pfly, I've been nosing up to the GIS stuff but haven't attempted to use it yet. I assume that the ArcGIS software converts raw data files into maps. My current method consists of downloading public domain base maps from the U.S. Census Bureau and altering them using Paint.Net using techniques learned almost entirely from Ruhrfisch. I had not heard of Digital Chart of the World until you mentioned it last night. I've used NASA as a base-map source a couple of times, but that is tricky because not all of the stuff that NASA publishes belongs to NASA and may include non-commercial (NC) copyright restrictions that make it useless for our purposes. I tend to learn in modular fashion and to happily repeat what I'm sure of until an urge for new adventure comes along. Is ArcGIS expensive? Is it worth the cost, do you think? Can it display small features like 5-mile creeks in a way that's useful on Wikipedia? Finetooth (talk) 17:42, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
Actually, it was Ruhrfisch, not me, who asked VerrukteDan about the geobox locator. (See above.) I don't understand the difference between that proposed locator and the one Ruhrfisch already made, Image:Washington Locator Map.PNG. What would the new one do that the existing one doesn't do? Good luck, by the way, with the new baby. Finetooth (talk) 18:31, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
The template uses the map and works with the Geobox to locate the dot based on the latitude and longitude. To calibrate it you have to enter the lat and long of the edges. I have made a British Columbia map in the same style using Online Map Creation (so it is free). I will upload it in a few hours - no time now. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 18:53, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
Oops, yes it was Ruhrfisch-- my excuse is typing with a sleeping baby in arms. Thanks to both of you anyway. And no hurry on anything- in a few hours my life will be all about packing and flying cross-country. Pfly (talk) 18:57, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
Here's the BC map - congrats on the baby and travel safely. Typing holding an awake baby is next to impossible (especially once they start trying to type too). Ruhrfisch ><>°° 21:25, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
Ah ha, thanks, cool. The Mercator is distorted glory alright, but otherwise it is lovely. I made Template:Geobox locator Utah to see if I understood the idea and could make it work. It took a little trial land error, but I think it is reasonable accurate (haven't fully checked yet). But in making it I got the sense that the way it works is by calculating the number of decimal degrees per pixel. In other words, it seems to want a "geographic" projection to work best. Mercator might get messy so far north. Unfortunately a geographic projection of BC would look just as distorted, I reckon. I'm still only guessing about the the way the template works, so I might be wrong. I'll get around to testing in... um... sometime. But if it is true that the template wants a geographic projection, I'm not sure it is going to work all that well for large regions poleward, like BC. The maps would be too ugly! I suppose a new conic projection map would be tricky for a template to calculate pixel placement on. Maybe these templates won't be great for Canada. But still gotta check, I might be wrong. And in any case, thanks for making the map. If nothing else I can check! Will report back in... um... sometime. Pfly (talk) 01:04, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
PS, also I noted that the Alaska map is not a geographic projection and, being so far north and so large, seems to be having some template trouble, at least Template talk:Geobox locator Alaska gives the impression. Maybe we need some template programmer to make the code do trigonometry and work from a library of map projection parameters! Heh, right. Pfly (talk) 01:11, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) There are a variety of projections available at the website I used to make the BC map here - if any of these are better, let me know and I will redo the map. The Alaska map is the Census map that I hand stitched and hand drew the Canadian and Siberian borders in on. I do not know another free source for a map that shows the "counties" there. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:27, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Goats and rivers

Er, I just created Goat River (Kootenay) about a week we gotta merge problem now, though not really a problem/ the simplest dab is the way I did it; the ref is to the egion rather than the river, same as ewhen you saee [Omineca], [Cariboo] etc in dabs. Anyway caught my eye right off this morning; my bad I ugess for forgetting to add it to the Columbia tribs page, or you'd have known....Skookum1 (talk) 12:54, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Btw, I was dab rivers by state or province unless there are multiples with the same name, then I dab by what the river is tributary to. This is just a personal style that has worked pretty well. But thinking now I realize that Canadian provinces are so big it makes to dab by regions within the province like you do. The trouble for me is not having a clear map for determining which region to use. Ideas? Pfly (talk) 19:02, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Edit to Eel River geobox

Hi Pfly, I saw the change to your geobox and was wondering why...I thought the section listing the tributaries was very informative. Could that part be put back into the geobox in another section possibly? And BTW, there will be a blue link for the Yolla Bollys as soon as I do a final "lookover" of the textfile. Finally huh? :) Cheers, Marcia Marcia Wright (talk) 16:33, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for responding Pfly and for returning the geobox to its former fine self :). I'm very interested in this new template locater thingy you mentioned. I'll check that out as I get the time. I'm hoping to run across something that helps put the red dot on the US map.svg, it is very time consuming to manually guess-preview-guess- etc.
Again, thanks for getting back to me, Cheers, MarciaMarcia Wright (talk) 04:54, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Pioneer Square totem pole

Hi. Per the Seattle discussion page: —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cptnono (talkcontribs) 06:06, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

While you're at it

Rivers, that is: Iskut River and Porcupine River (British Columbia) stubs just made; other Stikine tributaries are all quite large and need at least stubs; I'll try and assemble the bones for further fleshing-out.....Skookum1 (talk) 17:17, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Heh, yep, I catch your river making via User:AlexNewArtBot/WaterbodiesSearchResult. I'm currently just trying to work out the drainage basin sizes for Columbia River tributaries, helping the FA effort that's begun over there. But since some of the tributaries of tributaries have larger basins than first order ones, I'm looking into quite a few rivers, curious as to what the top top or so are. Putting ranked info up as I get it at User:Pfly/Sandbox2. Interestingly, so far the top basins by area are often second order tributaries (eg, Clark Fork), and even third order (Flathead). Also interesting, I assumed the Kootenay would be #2 after the Snake. After all its third for discharge but has a much larger basin than the Willamette. But apparently the Pend Oreille's basin is even larger than the Kootenay. Even the Pend Oreille's main tributary, Clark Fork, has a larger basin than the Kootenay. I was surprised. Of course in this process I'm finding all kinds of mistakes and missing info on the river pages themselves. I might be stuck in the Columbia basin for a while! Pfly (talk) 17:45, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
I sensed that your work had to do with the FA, as all worked on were Columbia River basin rivers; if only I could get BC/Can editors interested in an overhaul of Fraser River......the Stikine tribs and others esp. in the North are probably hard to find data comparable to what's available on the Columbia and its children; Canadian DFO (Department of Fiuheries and Oceans) has an interest in the Alsek, Taku/Whiting/Tulsequah and Stikine-Iskut, which will have at least discharge rates; data on basin size might be harder to come by - easier to find AAC's (Annual Allowable Cut), though maybe because the Stikine was looked at for major hydro development there could be quite a bit of catchment data on it out there, somewhere....The upper Fraser and Columbia tributaries are incomplte/unmade - the discharge rates from the Wood and other Rockies rivers into the Columbia are, I believe, considerable, as also the Goldstream, which runs west from the heart of the northern Selkirks to the Dalles des Morts. Given the FA need on Columbia River I'll go over the missing tribs tonight; can't remmber if Slocan River is made yet, or maybe it's Slocan Lake that's not made, one of them isn't; it's odd, isn't it, how the Columbia River thorugh the Mica-Castelgar stretch is so linear in catchment, i.e. immediately west of the crest of the mountains it drains out to the Shuswap, Okanagan or Kettle/Granby, there are no big tribs on that side other than the Eagle River and the Whatshan, and neither is very long. The upper Fraser tribs are many, and doing them predicates also making McGregor Plateau, which I don't relaly know why it's called plateau, terrain-wise it's indistinguishable from neighbouring parts of the Rockies and is on the same side of hte Trench.....Skookum1 (talk) 00:06, 13 September 2008 (UTC)