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Hubertine Heijermans

Hello, Thanks for your answer and action. But now I do not understand, what is needed, as fore for Annigoni Hoary asked me to search on the net for a reference, any language would do, he assured me. This it.wikipedia article seemed short and ok. I do not understand what is meant by citations. Annigoni was no talker, but a great oilpaint technician, his art influenced me very much, changed my out-look, sort of like suddenly having to make the choice for conservative ancient expressions or abstract, acrylic and the lot. (Now of course indisputable co-existing with each other). How can I explain or cite what he taught me. Quote something he believed in. He had a very gloomy outlook about the art of drawing, which he was convinced was getting lost forever. I have no book and don't know of a book in which he expressed himself, books I do find only show his portraits and nudes. For the other citations needed it is the same story. I had found the acquired references. I even wanted to ask you about a suggestion made my by Rich Farmbrough already in july: that a good reference for the portrait of Isabelle Adjani in the movie La Reine Margot can be found on the official website under http://www.st-triphon.ch/hubertine/Photogravure_Heliogravures/ and the same for the gift of a painting to the Circus Knie, done in 2003. That picture is also present on the official website. But I do not know how to indicate it or let me say it differently, how to isolate it out of the automatic context of the site. Hope you will explain so that I can work further. Thanks Kalaharih--Kalaharih (talk) 22:02, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Citation needed is minor thing that is not important. It just indicates that some sentence are not covered with a source and indicates it would be helpful to have a confirmation the sentence can be verified. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 22:11, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
Seems that following is what you refer to:"In 1970 Pietro Annigoni (Florence) Italy showed her the ancient techniques in oil painting including the use of flake white".[citation needed]. Is this explained anywhere in text outside of Wikipedia? I cannot find it here nor in any publication. This is issue for Wikipedia to verify information is not made up. If this and similar sentence cannot be verified then the sentences will eventually be removed. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 23:27, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Also

Limited independant reliable sources(such as books and news) makes this article unclear in Wikipedia's requirement for it to exist.
The images are going to be raised as copyright problems because two seperate user accounts claim to release them.
"How can I explain or cite what he taught me", if something cannot be found in sources already then one way to cite it is put it on your website, then explain that it's cited on the talk page of the article. I would advise you against editing the article directly, there is obvious autobiography issues such as self interest. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 11:37, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

The Signpost: 08 August 2011

Your signpost comment

I'm sure you meant "mature" -- John of Reading (talk) 12:15, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

A close call. ;) Regards, SunCreator (talk) 12:22, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Hubertine Heijermans

I saw you did some work, thank you. Since the 6th of August I worry about the slightest. Now I saw STUD on the article? What does it mean? Something to do with the Dutch article? Yet it is NO mirror. But it needs explaining about the Dutch article. It was requested by an Amsterdam journalist, because of the famous Heijermans family. You have an article on Herman Heijermans, who was my great uncle. His brother Louis was the co-founder and director of the GG&GD, an Amsterdam medical Center, my grandfather. His sister was Marie Heijermans, artist painter. None of the family in this article, which is about art. In the Official Website a few lines can be read about family. Another question about Kraczyna, who has an enormous influence even now because of his technical know how in etching. Why is there no more link Kraczyna- Heijermans. Half a lifetime of exchanges about techniques, materials, etching press, and NO link? Then a question about what is meant with citation needed. Flake white: does it mean like this a paint fabricated by mixing the white very toxic lead powder with oil and taking care not to have it touch other metals like Chrome or Cadmium? And about King Alfonso does a picture of the portrait serve as a link or citation? That I can find. Sorry for asking, many thanks to enlighten Kalaharih--Kalaharih (talk) 12:41, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

You saw STUD? Do you mean stub? If so then that is because for this article passing the Wikipedia Wikipedia notability criteria is still unclear due to concerns of User:AllyD here and User:Hoary. About the family, the article is suppose to be a biography about Hubertine Heijermans, not family members. The family links can be explained if relevant and with references to show it is not hoax information. Swietlan Kraczyna is linked in the article, there is no requirement to duplicate information on this article. Each biography is suppose to be about one person. Flake white does not maen what you say, I will amend. The King Alfonso picture is a citation but it does not show that is claimed in the article, all it shows it that King Alfonso has a picture done by Joaquin Sorolla y Bastida. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 15:50, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
Yes, just read your answer, new text takes me ages, but is double my same question, Sorry. With flake white and A.telling the artist HIMSELF, a very important factor stands out, meaning, that NO BOOK can ever be found. That is why the link is important of the website where Dawn Cookson(A.'s pupil for years) herself confirms in her book, that it is a secret, the RECIPE of mixing the oilpaint of the artist and rarely transmitted. That was meant here, Annigoni telling it and showing this artist HOW. Wouldn't you be surprised when you see a painter break an egg and use it to make paint in a salad bowl? And very toxic, you have to use a protection on your mouth. All that can be said is that the exceptional almost joke like tale in itself must be trustworthy and cannot be invented and is true without proof possible ! Otherwise the juicy parts will be systematically left out of the dictionnary like it was NEVER quoted, apart by a few witnesses. Wikpedia should KEEP, not like through the ages happened discard out of distrust or unbelief. Now it is more logical the amazement when Jesus P. spoke about the same thing 10 years later, the properties and importance of lead white, again in secet, only proof, he said, could be seen in paint on paintings of the painters long dead but right there on the wall of a museum! Yet, wasps at the entrance of the hive should go on with the good work, but like some custom officers, instinct tells somehow to let go and take risks.Kalaharih--Kalaharih (talk) 13:09, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
WOW, you are fantastic, I honestly can not do these adjustments myself. Paolo Portmann has gone again, I can not ask him. My english is how it is sort of spoken. I did never learn how to write it. My dutch is almost flawless, Italian, french and German quite good. But english..Flake white is written on the tube of paint containing it. I can not find that I say something with a different meaning about it. In the dictionary it is also described as a powder. The mixing secrets are not only about eggyolk and making tempera, but with a solution of amber or with Venetian Turpentine it matters of how much of each ingredient makes it a personal additive to paint. About the info acquired about E.Béart, I.Adjani and the Circus I wrote at length what it all means now included in the article. Sorolla and the King- that picture of him is in Wikimedia Commons. The book in which it is found is: Joaquín Sorolla y Bastida by Edmund Peel Sorolla p.141. That book is also mentioned in the wikipedia article Sorolla. Hope this is what you mean with the exhibits from the official Website:
  • --Exhibit in Gallery Farel Aigle Article in french(Swiss) paper l'Est Vaudois 22 december 1976
  • --Exhibit in Montreux in Gallery Art&Lumière Article in french in 24 Heures de Lausanne 1 november 1973
  • --Collective Exhibit with sculptors in Bex in a public park Article in l'Est Vaudois 24 august 1984
  • --Exhibit in Bulle in Gallery des Pas Perdus Article in La Liberté 26 june 1979
  • --Exhibition in Delft (Nl) Gallery De Fiets Article in Delftsche Courant 19 september 1970
  • --Exhibition in Villeneuve(Ch) in Gallery Coloris-Art Article in La Presse Riviera/Chablais 11 october 1977
  • --But there is more, the best in Italy was about a 3th prize I won with oil painting, and the > Article with winning names in the paper La Nazione 'Premiati I Artisti Di Via Maggio' May 1972
  • --Very important the Exhibit in Galerie Etraz Lausanne Article in 24 Heures by Dominique Vollichard (known art-critic) september 1978
  • --Exhibit in own Atelier St-Triphon Article in l'Est Vaudois 23 august 1977 and a big show heightened by a classic music orchestre invited at the Exhibit in Porrentruy(Ch) Gallery Terre d'Aube Article in Journal du Jura July 1978.
I can mention that in Aigle 3 exhibits were done in the 70. In 1977 also 4 exhibits in the same chain of Galleries were held, in the towns of Fribourg, Sion, Lausanne and Montreux, repect. Gallery La Cathédrale, La Fontaine, Etraz, and Pic-Pus. In 2004 the exhibit in Aubonne, mentioned in the article, but also a collective one in the same gallery in 2006. Of the early ones in Scheveningen (NL), The Hague, Amsterdam I have no material, about the numerous invitations in luxuary hotels or in the PTC Center of Nestlé in Orbe in June 2004, where I was very successful and aferwards did a benefit exhibit in an old age home (EMS) in Yverdon. This was published, while the important one was not. Anyway a lot of thanks for making so much headway. I do understand more since your patient explanations. It's getting late, sorry, will continue tomorrow. Kalaharih--Kalaharih (talk) 21:47, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
Your suggestion to add info on the official Website is Not easy to do. Paolo Portmann does this for me, because he created this website and did that for nothing, as I am on well fare and red cross aid. There is a limit about gifts of his part. If it interests you have a look at Bienvenue at St.Triphon and his website for the botanical garden and the photos Paolo Portmann made. That was ordered by the Mayor of Ollon ! Anything I would like to add (like about Annigoni or Sorolla) only this person has access to. But thanks, it is understood now, and might take another month, if I am lucky. Paolo was rather upset with Hoary, why can that man not apologize. At least he should offer some sort of excuses to Paldopaldino, damn it. Kalaharih--Kalaharih (talk) 22:32, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
Hello, please think of a way of direct contact, such as e-mailing. Because I have no access to my pictures of the official website and I want to refer to the painting of Jean Paul Gaultier and of Yves Saint Laurent. They represent important links or references. If I can mail (just temporarily) I could send the image I refer to, as for now on Wikimedia Commons they fail to include pictures. Wiki insiders work on the problem but cannot take in thumb.nail pictures for the time being. In my case self interest is the last thing, as I am myself exploited by others (knowingly so it's not serious), when I give away paintings through lack of storing space or pay with a painting. Then I know my work to be in good hands and not end up in a public sale at my death. As I do not know how you isolated the paper(Journals) clips from the site I address this to you. It is urgent as I have read that Hoary omitted the text I took much time to include. He has eliminated the sentence, that Kraczyna is my etching teacher. K. has been my etching teacher ever after my student time 1968-'70 and since, Kraczyna and I remained in touch: he remained my ETCHING teacher for over 40 years. This must be mentioned, as it is K's livelihood and equally his and my PROFESSION. Secondly the influence of Annigoni on my life's work and technique is essential and true (removed today) and the only way to obtain A.'s recipies was in direct contact with the master, which was the case for me. This sentence should absolutely be replaced. This, Annigoni's habit of rarely transmitting his secret recipies was described by the author Dawn Cookson. Yet, NOW nothing new will appear in Wikipedia, when one leaves out new info about Annigoni only I am left over to provide. Concerning many subjects I could equally add details, technical stuff like collodion used on heliography. I can read that the sun is a light source for early photography but not that the word comes from the greek 'Helios'. And what about the necessary AQUATINTS in heliography ? Aquatint is described in a separate article, NO connection with heliography and aquatint can be found, which I know exists. Today heliography is an almost extinguished art. I also wrote the article about Swietlan Kraczyna and that is just waiting to be deleted. Please answer me quickly. I feel sorry for this Hoary guy, that easy what he does, it might one day happen to him. At least he could have answered me, helping YOU at the same time. I prefer to continue the painting I work on instead of this. Kind regards, Kalaharih--Kalaharih (talk) 13:59, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
It is possible to email via Special:EmailUser/SunCreator. Unless prompted on Wikipedia I check my email very rarely. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 14:07, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
The journal clips I isolated are from [1]. I see some more http://www.st-triphon.ch/hubertine/journaux/12.jpg and http://www.st-triphon.ch/hubertine/journaux/13.jpg but not the ones you refer to. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 14:27, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
I have checked the edits by User:Hoary and understand why he has done them - and they seem reasonable to me. Swietlan Kraczyna is still in the article so it's not removed comepletely, the amount of text on http://www.st-triphon.ch/hubertine/biography.html about Kraczyna is small and I see NO other text connecting Kraczyna with Hubertine Heijermans. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 14:27, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Ok when you say that Hoary's interventions are justified I accept, but it impoverishes the content to the maximum. I also understand now, why a few artists I know, much younger than I am recently quit Wikipedia. One living in Amsterdam told me he was excommunicated. That person I know to be an honest calm person. It amazes me that people are getting hurt, when one assumes to act in good faith. About what I asked you, I believe you really did not understand: I would like to to add that one and only painting of JPG from the official Website, (you could not find) and I have no access to. I would like to have it included in the article or underneath as a reference. It can be found under the section painting in Switzerland the 22th picture, it is an in blue dressed girl and typical for my work. Marked JPG on one breast. The title is Jean-Paul Gaultier. Now there is nothing left of what I am worth, just an oil from 1959 when I started and a landscape, an oil sketchy of a holiday in Spain. The article contains many paperclips in french. The article also starts now with (by Hoary)---has lived near Montreux, since 1958. I have lived for 2 years in Lausanne, 6 years with my husband in our villa near Lausanne, makes 8 years Lausanne, then 5 years in Holland on my houseboat and 5 years in Florence, (Holland in the summer and in Florence the autumn and winter), but still with my husband in the villa near Lausanne, together is 13 years Lausanne. Only in 1973 I moved to Villars, close yet very far Montreux. But I all the time rented a room in the mountains near my handicaped son's school and did not have an address of my own. I settled by myself only in 1980 in Saint-Triphon, the house took years to repair, exhibits cost money, that was all my life was about, house keeping, painting and printmaking and how to make a living with exhibits, so please do not mention I lived since 1958 near Montreux, as I hardly know that place. In this country after a mile comes another world, from one valley to another. Thus since 1958 until 1980 she lived near Lausanne and after a long period of wandering settled in Saint-Triphon. I still do not understand what sort of citation is needed for flake white. I added the powder stuff, but of course do not myself take away the marking. Kalaharih--Kalaharih (talk) 17:56, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Your issue of the "sentence lived in Montreux since 1958"(now removed) shows why Wikipedia requires citations. A citation is any form of documentation that confirms the claims written into a Wikipedia article is true. For the flake white comment: "In 1970 Pietro Annigoni (Florence) Italy showed her the ancient techniques in oil painting including the use of flake white", a citation is required to show that Pietro Annigoni showed Hubertine Heijermans the use of flake white.
Do not be dishearted by the process, it takes time and allow yourself also some time, bit by bit things improve, that is the Wikipedia way.
I would encourage you to work through Wikipedia:Copyright assistance as my understanding is the images used in Hubertine Heijermans will be deleted for questionable copyright unless there is some clarification (see also Talk:Hubertine_Heijermans#About_copyright_issues). This copyright problem was also issue on French Wikipedia and part of reason to article. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 18:39, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Hubertine Heijermans

Hi, can I simply add that the use of flake-white in refering to Annigoni is what is best for the final result ? (one can even can see him on Youtube making himself the tempera with eggs in english. Maybe then you believe that in my diary of 1970 I made a note of Annigoni just for the color white followed the manner of underpainting with flake white instead of the usual titanium, and then preparing tempera paint. He told me that lead ages better and keeps all colors fresh like new, but careful use is needed and it can not be mixed with ultramarine or with Cadmium colors, where titanium white never gives problems. Conclusion, painting with lead is difficult, worth the trouble, so is preparing underlying colored coatings mixed with lead white, drying quickly within days and it is a paint that resists wear and tear of time. Could this be said either in the Annigoni article or without mentioning the master in the Heijermans article ? I hope you find time to pick up that Gaultier picture i am so proud of. Thank you, Kalaharih--Kalaharih (talk) 19:39, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Song Assessment

Hello, I was wondering if you would kindly assess the song article "Valentine (T'Pau song)". I have recently created the article and gave it a start class grade which has just been downgraded to a stub. I don't particularly agree with this as the user seems to state there is nothing about the song when writing anything about the music or lyric would be considered original research. I don't wish to get into a debate about the article rating and so was wondering if an outside opinion could be given. Many thanks, Ajsmith141 (talk) 19:50, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

two strange articles

Hi,

could you please have a look at Boris Katz and START natural language system? I believe they deserve some tags (my first idea was the deletion tag, but perhaps this is too harsh). Both articles look like a piece of advertisement to me (note the sentence "Click here if you want to ask START questions in English.").

Thanks a lot, Sasha (talk) 19:29, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks!! Sasha (talk) 20:34, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

The Signpost: 15 August 2011

Pelodiscus sinensis range map

Finished a version in my talk page. Please comment.-- Obsidi♠n Soul 01:53, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Figured I'd place this here instead, so it will be easier for you to see updates. :) Anyway, anything else you wanted to change on it?-- Obsidi♠n Soul 19:01, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Chelidae subfamily

Heya,

I have written about it but I did not propose it. It was first proposed by Georges et al., 1998. The 3 sub-families were named to recognise the reverse monophyly of the Australian and South American species to the exclusion of the much older Hydromedusa group. It demonstrates that the various long-necks are not related. Cheers Faendalimas talk 16:25, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

If your curious its actually very interesting. Its evidence of parallel and convergent evolution. The long necks of the Chelodina and the long-necks of the Hydromedusa are actually not related to each other, and Chelus (Mata mata) often considered a long neck is related to Phrynops. In fact in my conference presentations I usually refered to Chelus as a short shell. Its neck cervical to thoracic spine length ration is the same as Phrynops, however Chelus has reduced the size of the shell, giving the illusion of it being a long neck, when it isn't. I will try to find actualy publications that support all this. Peter Pritchard, Arthur Georges and myself have published on it in the past. Cheers, Faendalimas talk 17:07, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Hubertine Heijermans

About the chapter: Painters from Italy and Spain In 1970 Pietro Annigoni (Florence) Italy showed her the ancient techniques in oil painting including the use of flake-white.

Citation needed(no.7): The creator Paolo Portmann of the biography (Ref.no 8), in the Official Website, had forgotten to go into more details about Annigoni showing the preparation of oil paint with egg yolk and making the toxic flake-white, an almost secret recipe. The citation is now present in the Official Website, (in English and in French), as he mailed me yesterday. It is impossible to prove truth about a teacher, as it can only be seen in a letter or in a diploma obtained in the school, where he is teaching that particular student. Does Wikipedia consider handwritten letters or a diploma for everybody to see ? The only proof that Kraczyna did teach Hubertine Heijermans are the credits for etching in the highschool Villa Schifanoia where his name is on the sheet of paper. Now please have a look at this: on page 24 of the book by P.A.Genillard ISBN 2-9700240-4-7 Pietro Annigoni is mentioned as having received her, Hubertine Heijermans. This book was edited in february 2009. Of course I did not think of this at first, but it seems to me it is a valid reference when a citation is needed. Of course this is not the same reference as the completed texte in the Official Website. Thanks for clearing up these questions, Kalaharih--Kalaharih (talk) 23:28, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Categories

Heya Sun,

why did you change all the cats I did on the Chelidae yesterday? I can see what you did but I just dont get why you want it that way. Its not grouping things by the most commonly known means is all. Cheers, Faendalimas talk 17:37, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Well I get the way your doing it so I completed it and put the rest in sub-cats as well. Made one for the fossil chelids as well. Faendalimas talk 17:55, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

The Signpost: 22 August 2011

Subgenera

Hi Sun,

yeah whenever a genus is divided into subgenera the first is the nominal and is named the same as the genus, it is automatic, the others are named according to ICZN rules in the case of Chelodina there are 3 subgenera, Chelodina, Macrochelodina and Macrodieremys. Cheers, Faendalimas talk 01:06, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

adminhelp

{{adminhelp}} The matter Template_talk:Unreferenced#Category_attention here requires attention. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 13:32, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Just checking through other sourcing categories. Whole thing seems completely disorganized. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 13:49, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
If you think the template should be changed, you should create a sandbox-version of the template first to try it and then, if that works as intended, use {{edit protected}} on the template's talk page to request that the template is changed to reflect your test-version. Regards SoWhy 10:47, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

The Signpost: 29 August 2011

Unsourced BLP

When you notice an unsourced, negative BLP, either source it or tag it for speedy deletion (G10) please. Removing all contents from the page is totally useless when you don't do anything else to it, since you leave a useless article devoid of any information (and thus a speedy deletion candidate as well, since both the current version and all older versions are speedy candidates, albeit for different reasons).[2] Fram (talk) 11:25, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

I did consider speedy deletion, but at the moment due in part to objections/recommendations from User:DGG I am only tagging unsourced pages not deleting/BLPPRODding them. I fully complied with WP:BLPREMOVE and there is nothing to say that such a page has to be immediately speedy deleted. Of course others may choose to delete the page afterwards or expand the article accordingly. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 22:45, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Looking at your other BLP unsourced taggings, I note that you apply the tag as well to articles which aren't BLPs, but contain BLP elements. This is not the purpose of the tag though. Team Anna and Czech diaspora are two recent examples. Fram (talk) 11:31, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

It seems like you may not have not read or understood WP:BLP, from the lead: "This policy applies to BLPs, including any living person mentioned in a BLP even if not the subject of the article, and to material about living persons on other pages." The adding of a BLP template is also covered by that policy. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 23:29, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
So you believe that BLPprod also applies to every unsourced article that contains any info about about a living person (say, an unsourced article about a school that lists the current principal)? I don't think you will find much support for that interpretation. Yes, the BLP page applies to all information on living person, but the BLP unsourced tag is intended specifically for articles which are purely the biography of a libing person. I should know, I created the template... Anyway, I started a discussion at Template talk:BLP unsourced#What kind of article can have this template?

Cratochelone expansion

Hi SunCreator, I have been working at the fossil turtle categorizations, and while doing so I got the urge and expanded the Cratochelone article from a 1 line-er. Please have a look and tweak as needed. Also it should be moved to the Cretaceous entry in the extinct turtles template (its in the Paleocene section currently. :-D --Kevmin § 23:04, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Nice expansion. I tweaked the interwiki and category display and move it in the template to the Cretaceous section. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 23:20, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Your speedy tag of Ed Parker Jr.

Hey, just letting you know that I declined your A3 tag on this article because it was (previously) a redirect. The redirect, however, was removed by an IP in the middle of last month. I know it's an honest mistake, but please remember to check the history to double check that there isn't a better version to revert to before tagging articles for speedy deletion. Cheers. lifebaka++ 00:56, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

I did check the history and noted the IP removal of the redirect. The redirect is false as they are not the same person, therefore the article/redirect is best deleted. Hence the CSD. Maybe you want to go via WP:RFD? Regards, SunCreator (talk) 01:04, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
If you like. I don't really have an opinion on whether the redirect is itself necessary, but it's certainly preferable to discuss it than to straight delete via A3. Cheers. lifebaka++ 01:38, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
On further investigation, it seems that the redirect was put in place because Parker Jr.'s article was merged into Parker's. It has since been removed, however. I don't know if the history below the redirect is useful, but it certain should be discussed before it's deleted. Cheers. lifebaka++ 03:09, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks!!!

Many thanks for perusing the article on Thomas Watson.I am very new and learning the ropes!Watson is generally known to every cardiologist for the pulse I mentioned.I am unclear whether that would qualify as notable and would value your guidance.Thanks(Shridhar1984 (talk) 04:27, 2 September 2011 (UTC))

The Signpost: 05 September 2011

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