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Marknutley (again)

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Marknutley (talk · contribs) by Stephan Schulz (talk · contribs)

Closed, apparently resolved (?) within discussion. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:14, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

If I were less involved, I'd block for this PA. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:00, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What PA is that then? Am i not allowed to comment on an editors snideness now? mark nutley (talk) 13:11, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The internal irony of the sentence "I tell you, the guy is incapable of being civil, he must have been dragged up not brought up" puts the whole sanctions regime in a nutshell; i.e., the expectation of exactingly correct behavior from others while exempting oneself from the same standard. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 13:18, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I see the usual suspects demanding my head and that i am in the wrong from expressing my opinion on another editors continued barrage of snide remarks. I have yet to see any of the above editors bring WMC to book here for his attacks on me, yet they are all to willing to jump all over a perceived insult. Were i come from that phrase is in common usage, it is an indicator of poor manners, which is shown in the diffs stephan did not bother to post, i`m done with this now mark nutley (talk) 13:24, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That argument ("where I come from...") is depreciated. I noted before that where I come from, calling people "fucking retarded" is fine, but to question someone's honesty or motive without strong proof is by far the most substantial slight around. Apparently, here at Wikipedia, calling people dicks is the most substantial slight around, but accusing others of dishonesty and improper motive is AOK. You'll have to abide by that strucutre if you want to edit CC articles. Thanks! Hipocrite (talk) 13:30, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Deprecated", perhaps? We wouldn't want our arguments to lose value, after all. Fell Gleaming(talk) 13:54, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Mark has redacted the most viscous part now. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:50, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well I'm sure the conversation will flow better now. ;-) ATren (talk) 17:15, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Another personal attack, while he has an open enforcement request.[1] The attack is, as these things go, relatively mild. But to do that while he had an open enforcement request is troubling. His response [2] (edit summary hah) also suggest contempt for community norms. Guettarda (talk) 16:24, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[Turns out I misread the date; today's the 26th apparently. At the same time, I no longer see his comment as "relatively mild". It's a clear personal attack, and is clearly incompatible with his civility parole. As, for that matter, is this Guettarda (talk) 19:55, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hah indeed, and here was me thinking we were having a good old chat on my talk page, as i explained there that is not a personal attack, it is a question. I`m guessing english is not your mother tongue? mark nutley (talk) 16:44, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
English? Only language I speak. And, not to boast, but I speak it and write it better than most people, though I sometimes code switch inappropriately (whenever someone comes up to me on the street and asks me for money, I switch automatically to Trinidadian basilect). Guettarda (talk) 17:15, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And yet you actually think asking someone if they are capable of answering a question which they are trying to avoid is a personal attack? Sheesh mark nutley (talk) 17:24, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, but it wasn't a question. It was a rhetorical question. And it has only two possible meanings - either you're calling Hipocrite cognitively or mentally impaired, or you're calling him dishonest. Either way, it's a personal attack. Guettarda (talk) 17:32, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
copy over from my talk page, i doubt any admin will look there

No, lets make this simple, here is what i wrote Are you incapable of giving an answer to my question above? Now lets see if i can answer it.

  • "Are you incapable of giving an answer to my question above?" Of course i am, here it is
  • "Are you incapable of giving an answer to my question above?" No, i am not.

Yes, i can see how that is a rhetorical question which can`t be answered all right —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marknutley (talk • contribs) 17:42, 26 April 2010

English *is* my mother tongue and the diff looks deliberately offensive (as well as an amusing self-reference failure), as does the comment above William M. Connolley (talk) 16:48, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes WMC, but you would of course say that. What is the self reference failure you refer to btw? O, and have you redacted your PA`s against me? mark nutley (talk) 16:51, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that MN cannot see what's wrong the comment (e.g. [3], [4]) strongly suggests that Administrator action is needed here. Yilloslime TC 17:14, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Apart from Mark's questions being aggressive and rather uncivil, they suggest that he hadn't realised that Hipocrite had already answered the earlier question. A more cooperative approach would have resolved this misunderstanding without the drama. . . dave souza, talk 19:52, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

William M. Connolley (and Marknutley)

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William M. Connolley (talk · contribs) #17 by Cla68 (talk · contribs)

William M. Connolley is reminded that commentary should be directed toward the content and not the contributor. Marknutley is prohibited from introducing a new source, with some exceptions such as articles published in peer-reviewed journals, books published by a well-regarded academic press, or newspaper articles published in the mainstream media, to any biography of a living person or any climate change article without first clearing the source with another long-term contributor in good standing. He is also prohibited from reverting the removal of sources that he added to an article without first gathering talk page consensus. Marknutley is encouraged to find a mentor who can assist in checking the reliability of sources and with more properly educating him on the reliable sources policy. LessHeard vanU (talk) 15:03, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Request concerning WMC

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User requesting enforcement
Cla68 Cla68 (talk) 00:10, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
User against whom enforcement is requested
William M. Connolley (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Sanction or remedy that this user violated
Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

  1. Violation of 1RR at a BLP article under this probation- 1st revert: Revision as of 22:08, 25 April 2010; 2nd revert: Revision as of 08:34, 26 April 2010
  2. Personal attacks on discussion page for same article: [5] [6]
Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

  1. 1RR restriction
  2. [7] Previous block for 1RR violation by LessHeard vanU
  3. Warning not to use demeaning or derogatory phrases or words with regard to other contributors
Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
Continue with escalating series of blocks until the behavior is corrected
Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Diffs speak for themselves. Cla68 (talk) 00:10, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Update: Judging from some of the comments below, I guess those diffs don't speak for themselves with everyone. Not only did WMC remove reliably sourced information and violate his 1RR restriction when doing so, plus making two personal attacks during the ensuing discussion on the article talk page, but this episode illustrates the long-running double-standard employed by WMC when it comes to AGW-related BLPs, in which he adds negative or disparaging information to skeptic's BLPs and removes such information from others. He has been doing this for years, as shown by these edits to the BLP of a skeptic: [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14].
Then, last month he made this edit to another skeptic's BLP. Not only did he add negative information sourced to a blog, but he did so to an author who had, only a few months before, written unflatteringly about WMC in a published book. WMC shouldn't have even been touching that article. Cla68 (talk) 06:37, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[15] Cla68 (talk) 00:13, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion concerning WMC

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Statement by WMC

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There are several issues here, but the major one we're talking about seems to be the 1RR, so I'll address that. I explicitly claimed a BLP exemption for my revert, so the issue is was the edit acceptable under BLP exemption. As I've said on the talk page, in my opinion the "impeccable sourcing" bit is irrelevant. The question is balance, and selective quotation. If I say "immigration is both a blessing and a curse" and you quote me as saying "immigration is... a curse" then your sources are impeccable but you have misrepresented what I said and if you did that on wiki it would be a BLP violation. This is the same issue, though less clear. The section I removed [16] was entitled "Views on Climate Change" but that section by no means represents Curry's views on climate change, instead it merely presents some recent quotes of Curry disagreeing with the IPCC. That is not her view. Curry essentially believes the GW storyline as presented by IPCC. She has a number of quibbles and concerns about the process, but those are at the margins. Her overall viewpoint (which isn't very exciting, because it is the default, and so goes under-reported) is a "warmist" if you need a term William M. Connolley (talk) 08:04, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Cla is making an elementary logical and wiki error by asserting that because he didn't like my BLP-related edits elsewhere, I am not permitted to make BLP related edits in this area. This assertion by Cla is clearly ridiculous. More directly: even if I had made grossly BLP violating edits elsewhere (which I dispute) that doesn't affect in the slightest the existence of the BLP policy, or my (all of our) duty to remove BLP violating material; and my right to claim BLP exemption for such edits as required William M. Connolley (talk) 18:24, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We seem to be reduced to just a slightly iffy "No, not obviously, and not yet. You have no interest in her science, and that is regrettable, but that doesn't mean her biog should reflect that" (NW, 23:55, 27 April 2010). I think it is obvious that that diff doesn't merit reporting on its own; indeed I don't think it merits reporting at all. Please examine the context of that comment: Tillman is trying to justify adding a pile of tittle-tattle to a scientific biography, and completely ignoring Curry's actual real work, which is why she has her current position. This is a genuine ongoing problem with this and indeed many other GW type bios.

Also, I put on record my strong objection to Lar pretending to be uninvolved: he is obviously far too biased and involved even to see his involvement. The truely uninvolved admins ought to see this and ask Lar to step back to prevent his bias biasing the results William M. Connolley (talk) 09:23, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by others about the request concerning WMC

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Cherry-picking from blogs? I see references from the Times and the New York Times in there. A whittling down of the section in lieu of outright deletion would have been less disruptive.--Heyitspeter (talk) 00:35, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't mean to imply that all of the sources were blogs. Should have been clearer, sorry. The "cherry picking" point remains: one can easily construct a BLP-violating article using only the best of sources. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:41, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Heyitspeter, that's exactly it. If WMC had just removed the information sourced to the blogs and left the info that was better sourced, then taken it to the talk page, as we're supposed to do, then there wouldn't be a problem. As the talk page discussion shows, including WMC's opposition to (and personal attack on) Tillman's proposed variation of the text in question, WMC was simply revert warring material that he didn't want in the article in any shape or form. That's a violation of the restriction and disruptive. Cla68 (talk) 00:44, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Quoting from WP:BLP, The burden of evidence for any edit on Wikipedia rests with the person who adds or restores material. And remember, a zero-tolerance policy toward any language that could be considered less polite than a Victorian tea society can go both ways. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:50, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Can you find a different quote? The material removed was exhaustively cited. I'll remove this comment to avoid cluttering the page if you find a relevant excerpt.--Heyitspeter (talk) 02:10, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Whoever added material to a biography of a living person from the comments section of http://rogerpielkejr.blogspot.com , from http://wattsupwiththat.com , and from http://www.qando.net should promptly be informed that they are no about to be no-longer welcome to edit. As such, I suggest that Marknutley, who has gotten his last final last final doublesecret final warning be final warninged again and that Marknutley , who has gotten his last final last final doublesecret final warning be final final warninged again and that Tillman be given his first final warning. Hipocrite (talk) 01:00, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Lar states "The statements by Ms. Curry are impeccably sourced." Lar, in addition to NW's question, please discuss how (using this pre-revert version of the article) the statement "She has ... [written] for example, "The corruptions of the IPCC process, and the question of corruption (or at least inappropriate torquing) of the actual science by the IPCC process, is the key issue,"" This is sourced to [17]. Please, do explain how this is impecable. It leads me to question if you are actually evaluating the requests, or merely taking sides based on your preconception of what must be true. If it turns out that you agree with me that this is, in fact, the opposite of impecable sourcing, what should be done to correct your conduct? Hipocrite (talk) 03:12, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I see Lar has now moderated his comment. While he initially said "The statements by Ms. Curry are impeccably sourced," he didn't actually mean all the statements. The ones that were not actually by Dr. Curry were apparently not impeccably sourced. Apparently, the appropriate response to someone who puts certainly defamatory content about living persons into articles is not to revert them, but rather to piece through their edits to determine what of those edits are impeccably sourced and what parts of them are defamatory poorly sourced content about living persons. I hope Lar will update WP:BLP to reflect this new understanding. Hipocrite (talk) 03:14, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Not particularly surprised by that comment. But disappointed just the same. You just can't avoid being snarky and sarcastic, can you? ++Lar: t/c 03:29, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    "The real issue here is the spin control," Lar. Why are you spin-controlling your "The statements by Ms. Curry are impeccably sourced," claptrap? Just own up to it, already. Hipocrite (talk) 03:44, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    You just can't avoid being snarky and sarcastic, can you? If the NYT isn't good enough for you, what is? This isn't the first time that WMC et al. have removed NYT sourced "inconvenient truths". Regrettably it probably won't be the last. ++Lar: t/c 04:26, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Interesting spin there. But we aren't talking about the New York Times. We're talking about an unverified blog comment. Which you apparently believe to be "impeccably sourced". I'd hate to imagine what you consider "so-so" sourcing. Guettarda (talk) 04:43, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    How many times are you going to toss this one at the wall before you realize it doesn't stick? I'm not talking about blogs. I am talking about sources such as the NYT, which were also removed willy nilly. You repeating this after I've clarified it, more than once, is starting to verge on bad faith assumption. ++Lar: t/c 10:01, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    "The real issue here is the spin control". Funny, I thought the real issue here was attributing controversial statements to living people based on unverified blog comments. Guettarda (talk) 03:24, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Not particularly surprised by that comment. But disappointed just the same. The enforcement request was raised to address the spin control by WMC et al, in my view. You're using BLP as a smoke screen. ++Lar: t/c 03:29, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I must say I am particularly surprised by your comments. As for spin - yes, this is spin. Spin so single-minded that people are willing to resort to using unverified blog comments to advance their narrative. Still, given that you'd delete dozens of bios simply because they lacked sources, I'm shocked that you would place advancing your chosen narrative over our most basic rules of sourcing. "Don't put contentious words you can't verify in the mouths of living people" is far more basic than our BLP policy. Guettarda (talk) 03:56, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please look through the edits under discussion. You're implying that all WMC did was remove sentences sourced to blogs [though even that is not sufficient for BLP exemption], but he also removed statements sourced by The New York Times and The Times.--Heyitspeter (talk) 04:04, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nope, I'm not. The entire section has BLP problems. The most egregious problem was the fact that part of it was sourced to a blog comment. It's entirely in keeping with accepted practice to remove the entire section. Specifically here though I'm talking about Lar's assertion that the entire section "impeccably sourced". Which is, of course, obviously false. Guettarda (talk) 04:53, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How many times are you going to toss this one at the wall before you realize it doesn't stick? (2) ++Lar: t/c 10:01, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You think BLP advocates the deletion of the entirety of sections that have sentences that are poorly sourced?--Heyitspeter (talk) 06:00, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Read MastCell's comment in the section below. I'm simply describing norms that are considered acceptable. As long as one is operating within the norms of the community, there's nothing to discuss. On the other hand, claiming that the comment was an appropriate source, as Lar and Cla68 have done ("impeccably sourced" in Lar's words), is outside of the norms of acceptable behaviour. Guettarda (talk) 06:11, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How many times are you going to toss this one at the wall before you realize it doesn't stick? (3) ++Lar: t/c 10:01, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • random comment I was actively editing this article while much of this was going on. MN added some stuff (good stuff, but maybe too much). WMC took it off (with some justification. There was simply too much.). MN added a tag (with some justification. His good stuff had gone.) There was discussion, a sentence was added back and MN removed the tag. So everybody was happy. Well, less unhappy. Now we can move on to fight the same foolish war on yet another page (sigh). Neither MN nor WMC assume good faith of the other, but there you go. Thepm (talk) 01:24, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Lar: "The BLP policy is being used as a smoke screen by WMC's many defenders, who have predictably formed ranks" - please stop it with the conspiracy theories and lay off the accusations of bad faith. You are the one who's attacking an editor for removing content sourced to blog comments from a BLP. The conspiracy you see - it's called Wikipedia policy. Guettarda (talk) 04:32, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How many times are you going to toss this one at the wall before you realize it doesn't stick? (4) ++Lar: t/c 10:01, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note - you said The statements by Ms. Curry are impeccably sourced. An unverified comment on a blog is "impeccably sourced"? I realise nothing Wikipedia should be taken too seriously, but you're turning this into a real joke. Guettarda (talk) 04:39, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If WMC's intention was to protect a BLP, then why did he make edits like these: [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] in the past to the BLP of a climate change skeptic? Cla68 (talk) 04:53, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you want to play that game, first explain why you consider an unverified blog comment to be a "reliable source" for a BLP. Then you can talk about other people's actions. Guettarda (talk) 04:55, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How many times are you going to toss this one at the wall before you realize it doesn't stick? (5) ++Lar: t/c 10:01, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And then you can explain how edits from two years ago are relevant in the discussion. Guettarda (talk) 04:56, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, here's one from last month, re-inserting material sourced to a blog into a skeptic's bio. Same pattern. What makes this worse is that Booker discusses WMC in an unflattering light in two pages in his recent book, so WMC shouldn't have been touching Booker's BLP, let alone adding negative information sourced to a blog. Cla68 (talk) 05:10, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As I said, before you try to play this game, first you need to account for your own actions. In the very article we're talking about here, you assert that an unverified blog comment is a "reliable source". As far as I can tell, that's a flat-out falsehood. You need to explain that first. Otherwise how is anyone can take you seriously? Guettarda (talk) 06:06, 27 April 2010 (UTC) Note that it's normal for enforcement requests to look at the behaviour of not only the subject of the complaint, but also the person bringing the complaint. And in this case, the real problem here is your assertion that unverified blog comments count as "reliable source[s]". Guettarda (talk) 06:14, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How many times are you going to toss this one at the wall before you realize it doesn't stick? (6)... See the pattern yet? ++Lar: t/c 10:01, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Lar, the pattern is that you're going to try to spin that comment you made about unverified blog comments on a no-login unmoderated comments section being impeccably reliable till you're dizzy. Hipocrite (talk) 11:00, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As soon as I was questioned about what I meant, the very first time, I clarified that I was referring to the NYT. NOT blogs. (I support Tony's thinking that we ought to completely eliminate reliance on blogs...) I clarified that the first time it was brought up. And yet, here you are, still misconstruing what I said, over and over and over. If you repeat a Big Lie enough times (or even a small one) maybe it will stick? Is that the approach? You just can't avoid being snarky and sarcastic, can you? Stop saying I am talking about blogs. Please. It's tiresome. Or admit that you're the one spinning here, part of the cadre. ++Lar: t/c 11:19, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Lar, I'm willing to bygones your regrettable statement that unverified comments in blog comment sections are "impeccably reliable," if you'll admit that WMCs reversions of edits that insert actually defamatory facts sourced to unverified comments in blog comment sections are acceptable under WP:BLP. You can then have whatever argument you want about spinning, and others using blog sources, and whatever, but right now apparently you're saying the appropriate response to an edit that has what appears to possibly be reliably sourced information from the NYT and also obviously defamatory information sourced to unverified comments in blog comment sections is not to revert on sight as many times as it takes, but rather do do something else. Now, I know you don't think that, but sadly, when you admit the above assertion, it'll weaken your case and damage your spin here. I'm sorry that you went out on a limb about the sourcing, but you're going to have to crawl in. Hipocrite (talk) 11:25, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You just can't avoid being snarky and sarcastic, can you? Stop saying I am talking about blogs. Please. It's tiresome. Just flat out stop. No more spin, just stop. ++Lar: t/c 11:32, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You just can't admit when you make a mistake can you? Stop spinning and admit that your first comment was wrong. Please. It's tiresome. Just flat out stop. No more spin, just stop. Hipocrite (talk) 12:18, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Asked and answered. "I'm referring to the stuff sourced to the NYT." As explained to you over and over. Perhaps you need to be sanctioned to discontinue repeating the same tiresome assertion over and over after it has already been answered. But that might interfere with your spin... ++Lar: t/c 13:12, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I find it midly ironic that someone who actually numbered the times they said the same thing is suggesting I be "sanctioned to discontinue repeating the same tiresome assertion over and over after it has already been answered." However, I should note that with respect to this question, since it's you who alledge that it's bee answered, and you who I am challenging, that you are certainly not, even under your tortured definition, "uninvolved," with respect to my "repeating the same tiresome assertion over and over after it has already been answered." Hipocrite (talk) 13:29, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What I was numbering was the number of times Guettarda raised the point AFTER it was already asked and answered. Not how many times I pointed it out (which, to be sure, is the same index value). Hope that clears up your latest confusion and that you now discontinue this fruitless line of badgering. Every time we interact I find your chosen moniker more apt. Why is that? ++Lar: t/c 13:38, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Probably because when people are willing to stand up to you you get defensive and try to attack the motives and character of the individuals who disagree with you. Hipocrite (talk) 14:06, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We can discuss the content dispute on the article's talk page if you like. The question here is the disruption caused by WMC to the article by revert warring, contrary to his 1RR probation, and the two personal attacks he made in the content discussion on the talk page. What is your opinion of those two personal attacks on the article talk page? If WMC's actions were meant to help facilitate a content discussion, do you think those two comments were helpful, or disruptive? Cla68 (talk) 06:27, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • (I'm "Lar-uninvolved", since I've never edited either the article not the talk page. Move my comments up if you move his up). As per the several comments above, there is nothing actionable here - indeed, WMC should be lauded for dealing with a BLP issue. If you, Cla, feel that there is a double standard, complain about the cases where BLP is violated, not about those where it is upheld. "Sorry, we executed an innocent man by accident. For fairness, we now need to eliminate all others, too" is not a good argument. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:19, 27 April 2010 (UTC) (Note: I moved this up from the admin section. Cla68 (talk) 07:31, 27 April 2010 (UTC))[reply]
    • Sorry, you're (by far) not as uninvolved as me. You may not have edited this article but you edit in this space far more than I do (i.e. essentially not at all) ++Lar: t/c 10:01, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Translation: I contribute content and have demonstrated some understanding of the issues. All you do is pushing misguided and one-sided sanctions following your preconceived opinion, without either knowing the editors, the domain, nor even the particular case very well. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 11:50, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm having a hard time understanding what was so dreadful about WMC's actions here. I've not been involved in any way with this article, but having reviewed it I think it's clear that the controversial section was "dirty" - a mixture of cherry-picked quotes from reliable and unreliable sources. As I understand it, WMC's concern, apart from the sourcing, is that the content seriously misrepresented Curry's views. The fact that some of the content was reliably sourced doesn't detract from this concern. Given that WMC has worked in the field and is familar with the work of others in that field, I don't think we can dismiss those concerns. It's not about "spin control", nor is BLP just about sourcing; it's essential that a subject's views should be reflected accurately. As others have pointed out below, BLP's toughened approach mandates a conservative approach to content. If questionable material has been added it needs to be removed.

Unfortunately think that Lar's strong reaction is affected by his evident dislike of WMC. Put it this way - if it was any editor other than WMC, does anyone think that such a severe penalty (or indeed any penalty) would have been proposed? I suggest that Lar should consider recusing himself from future WMC-related enforcement requests, given his apparent strength of feeling. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:14, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Assumes facts (in this case, feelings) not in evidence. Hate the sin, love the sinner. I have no personal animus for WMC. I just dislike the tactics he employs. You should too. ++Lar: t/c 10:05, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I second the request for Lar to recuse. I also ask that someone who boasts that his family owned 8 cars at one time should be removed from oversight of an area that intimately involves the topic of fuel combustion. I'm not joking. ► RATEL ◄ 09:43, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This request is ludicrous on the face of it, as if it's allowed to stand then we should also eliminate anyone who brags of having less than 8 cars, or who brags about riding a bike or who brags about their use of wood to heat their house instead of natural gas, or any of a number of things. The request needs to be formally rebutted and disallowed, with an admonishment not to repeat it. ++Lar: t/c 10:05, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Larry, I'm sorry, but the fact that you openly proclaim your love of engines and ownership of numerous vehicles destroys trust in your judgement on the issue of fossil fuel emissions for me, and I'm sure for others too. I think Bozmo's suggestion that admins be rostered off this area on some sort of schedule would be a minimalistic, but perhaps effective, remedy for these concerns. ► RATEL ◄ 11:34, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Even with 50 cars Lar could only drive one at once, a total climate change contribution equal to that of an editor with but one vehicle. Further since Ratel is using a variety of electricities and plastics to convey his displeasure I believe as a representative of the energy industry he should recuse himself from this debate. Weakopedia (talk) 10:27, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The probation terms state that "uninvolved" should be interpreted broadly. In my view both DrS and Lar qualify as the rules are written in this case. Involvement is not the same as neutrality. But perhaps we should all do a month-on month-off rota so that we don't get sucked into the personal stuff. Off article talk page involvement with the individuals concerned is probably not ideal. --BozMo talk 10:57, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note that Cla68's diffs about blp and blogs are from 2008, and some of them, such as [25] are totally uncontroversial housekeeping. While Cla's last diff, using deltoid on the Booker page is troubling, how much grudge-holding should be permitted by someone who has lost perspective? Just yesterday, Cla68 was defending comments on a blog as reliable sources. I think perhaps everyone in this discussion who has inserted blog sources or defended blog sources as reliable needs a break - that would be WMC, Marknutley, Cla68 and Lar. Perhaps ban them all from the topic area for a short time to allow them to regain their balance? Say, a month, and perhaps a longer ban on all of them under BLPSE, perhaps 3 months on all BLPs? Hipocrite (talk) 11:05, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Stop saying I am talking about blogs. Please. It's tiresome. ++Lar: t/c 11:22, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Then acknowledge that WMC's second revert was not only acceptable, it was actually proscribed. Hipocrite (talk) 11:27, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Lar, your claim that this was "impeccably sourced" still stands in your comment. You have not retracted that claim. Thus, you are still claiming that the blog comment is an "impeccably source". Strike the whole section (because, of course, your conclusions follow from your outlandish claim) and we can move on. But as things stand, you're telling people to stop talking about a claim you, by all appearances, stand by. Guettarda (talk) 13:13, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As soon as I was questioned, I (two comments below the orginal) pointed out I was talking about the NYT, not blogs. If you think a strike and rephrase will help, sure. But I don't see the need if the clarification is right there next to it. And yet you go on and on about it over and over. ++Lar: t/c 14:12, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment by ATren - Round and round we go. We're in the neighborhood of a dozen requests against WMC now, most of them credible reports, and nothing but token sanctions. Lar is the lone admin who has any interest in leveling this playing field, and like clockwork the WMC apologists are coming out of the woodwork to attack Lar, someone who not only has no involvement in this topic, but has also professed sympathy with WMC's own views on the matter.

    And WMC's defense? BLP! Laughable for anyone who knows his history. WMC has openly scorned BLP when LP is a skeptic -- just a few months ago he was warring to keep "see also: climate change denial" in a bunch of skeptic BLPs even though the denial article was primarily about fraud. But when BLP policy suits him, he's more than willing to use it.

    But really, the issue here is yet another attack on Marknutley, someone who is actually working to add content in this topic area (how many articles created now? At least 3 by my recollection) and who has been subjected to constant mocking and abuse by WMC. That first PA diff is inexcusable given their history, and it has to stop. But as long as the apologists refuse any significant sanction against an untouchable, this will continue to be a poisonous editing environment. ATren (talk) 12:10, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Marknutley. Let me say it just as it is. I have some time for Mark but that does not mean when he constructs such a poor biased BLP that every editor should congratulate him on his efforts to improve wikipedia. Why is this at enforcement? Why are we getting into this trench warfare? It was a crap attempt at a neutral BLP, now for some reason we are all here arguing about it, that is an absolute joke. Polargeo (talk) 12:18, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Why are we getting into this trench warfare?" Because admins refuse to remove the battleground editor. ATren (talk) 12:25, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. Taking out MN, and you, would help. Or did you have someone else in mind? William M. Connolley (talk) 20:32, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I’m not happy with the direction this discussion is taking. If a BLP exemption can be taken for a citation to the New York Times, then the 1R restriction has no teeth. I’m sympathetic to the view that if someone posted that person X was a denier, which no sourcing, then an editor under an editing restriction can properly claim an exemption to remove the transgression. However, when the exemption, lists “biased, .. or poorly sourced” which is broad enough to drive a truck through. If the editor merely needs to claim that, in the sole opinion of the editor, the edit introduced some bias, then virtually no edit is covered. I think Cla68 is right that WMC violated the spirit of the restriction, but WMC can claim the exception. The result is that we should modify the exemption. We need to be vigilant about rooting out BLP violations, but some of the discussion ought to be carried out in the talk pages – we should narrow the scope of the exemption so that it covers only blatant examples, one’s where there’s no reasonable debate about the issue.SPhilbrickT 14:16, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No one is claiming the BLP exemption applies to the NYT. It does, however, apply to the unmoderated no-login comments section of a blog, wihch was used to shove words into Dr. Curry's mouth. Hipocrite (talk) 14:25, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please help me understand your point. I do understand that there were multiple statements removed, one of which may have come from a blog, but one of which came from the NYT. When I see User:Guettarda state “Clear BLP violation” I don’t see any clarification that this applies only to a subset of the removed material. Are you telling me that Guettarda’s comment is limited to the blog entry?SPhilbrickT 16:49, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's already been clarified that even Lar agrees that "if someone inserts obviously defamatory information cited to a blog comment on a no-login unmoderated highly partisan blog, but also inserts content in the exact same edit that is purportedly attributable to the New York Times" then the best practice is to "revert first and track down sources later." Hipocrite (talk) 17:18, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The result is that we should modify the exemption - you can't. BLP policy is outside the scope of this probation William M. Connolley (talk) 15:03, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn’t suggesting that it should be modified within the scope of the probation, merely that it should be modified. I don’t have time to tackle that now, we’ll see if I still feel motivated to consider it this weekend.SPhilbrickT 16:43, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lar's approach to this seems to be based on two assumptions - that the removal of this content was an improper act of"spin control" and that there's a "cadre" of WMC defenders. Both are faulty. There's no dispute that some of the sourcing (blogs) was bad. WMC is concerned that the section as a whole, including the NY Times-sourced material, gave a misleading impression of Curry's views. He knows Curry's work. I don't, and I'm betting Lar doesn't either. Surely it can't be wise just to dismiss WMC's concerns out of hand, given his professional knowledge?We do want experts to contribute to Wikipedia, right? Misrepresenting someone's views is a serious issue - potentially defamatory - so it's absolutely right to exercise caution.

Second, I strongly object to the implication that everyone who disagrees with Lar is a WMC "defender". I'm certainly not, and I've criticised his conduct in the past. Assessing whether or not WMC acted properly should not depend on your prior opinion of him. It's absurd to label an assessment that no improprietry occurred as a "defence" of WMC. People are capable of being objective; it's verging on an assumption of bad faith to assume that any assessment that differs from Lar's is motivated by partisanship.

Surely, as a matter of basic fairness, we can't treat WMC differently from everyone else - whether more favourably or punitively. I seriously doubt whether Lar would have reacted this way if it had been anyone else. His issue appears to be not so much with the action as with the actor. I don't think that's a healthy approach. -- ChrisO (talk) 14:40, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Imputing motivations seems like the essence of failure to WP:agf,do you disagree?SPhilbrickT 16:58, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You're talking about Lar, aren't you? William M. Connolley (talk) 18:21, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
ChrisO: I let this sit a while, but on reflection I think it needs to be addressed point by point. Let's start with your assumptions about my approach:
  • "Removal of this content was an improper act of spin control" - I started by looking carefully at the article beforehand, and walking the diffs and checking the refs. After that, yes, that was my evaluation... there is a long history of spin control (a kind of POV pushing) in this area, and it's been done by both "sides". I and others have in the past asserted that to be the case. Nothing I have seen recently has changed my view that in general there is still a desire by both "sides" to do this. I've also asserted that while both sides try to get their innings in, the playing field is not level, that one side seems to have an easier time of it. So, then... this content. My evaluation of the matter, and I acknowledge others may not agree, is that WMC came in and removed content that was inconvenient to the narrative that he apparently wants (I say apparently, because it's based on observation of outcomes, not of knowledge of his motives) to put forth, that there is no meaningful dissent and no problems whatever with anything related to the process or output of the research around AGW. Some of that removed content was poorly sourced yes, but some was impeccably sourced. Since WMC tends to do this only in one direction, but not the other, then yes, it was a reasonable conclusion on my part that it was spin control rather than a genuine desire to uphold the principles of BLP. Others may not agree, but WMC doesn't have a long history of generic BLP work that crosses topic boundaries. His BLP work seems to be concentrated in removing things that undercut that narrative and inserting things that bolster it.
  • "there's a "cadre" of WMC defenders" - I think for more background it's useful to review the recent discussion TS and I had (on my talk) about why a "cadre" is not a "conspiracy". There are a number of editors in this area, who, whenever WMC (or one of the others among them) gets into trouble, speak out in his (or the other person's) defense. That's not a bad thing in and of itself. See Meatball:DefendEachOther. No outside communication, or collusion, or coordination, is necessary or implied by me. Occasionally pointing out something that WMC does wrong isn't proof that one isn't among these folk, and pointing out that WMC is right about something isn't proof that one IS among these folk. Rather, it's a pattern of behavior. To deny that there is a group of folk who hang together (call them what you will) is to deny reality... you can see it here. It may not be changable, but it's not a good thing to have people reflexivly defending each other, especially when their tactics include attacking whoever points it out.
  • "the implication that everyone who disagrees with Lar is a WMC "defender"." See above. I make no such claim, and if you read that implication, it's not correct. People disagree all the time. But there nevertheless are defenders here.
  • Finally, you are implying that this issue is somehow related to me, rather than to WMC. That's attacking the messenger and completely invalid. You say you "seriously doubt" I would have "reacted this way" if it were anyone else. That is false... if it were some other person with the problematic history of WMC and with the approach to interacting with others that WMC routinely employs my reaction would be the same. It's not personal at all.
I hope this perhaps clears up some misconceptions. ++Lar: t/c 15:08, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Lar - it's very hard to believe that you "I started by looking carefully at the article beforehand, and walking the diffs and checking the refs," but didn't notice that one of the refs was to a deleted blog comment (and other links were to random blogs) and quotes attributed to a living person were not uttered by that living person, and that at least one sentence was a quote, but was not attributed. Did you miss those, or ignore them? Hipocrite (talk) 18:12, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I neither missed nor ignored the sources, but the source I spent the most time with was this one. But you're focusing on a side issue from the general thrust of my remarks, which are a thematic rebuttal of ChrisO, not (yet another tiresome) digression about who said what when about blogs. If that's what you want to talk about... Dunno what to tell you, then, because I consider it asked and answered. ++Lar: t/c 20:21, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Since it was the source you spent most time with, you'll have noticed that it's a blog source: it seems to be commonly described as a NYT source, but that's a little misleading. Your comment above that "clarified that I was referring to the NYT. NOT blogs" looks technically incorrect. Having said that, I've looked at the author's bio and find it credible as a WP:SPS. In my view it's worth being specific about that justification for blog sources published by such organisations as the NYT. . . dave souza, talk 22:25, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment by Mark Nutley People seem to be having an issue with the blog link, with one editor above saying the blog was putting words into DR Currys mouth. This is not the case, "What has been noticeably absent so far in the ClimateGate discussion is a public reaffirmation by climate researchers of our basic research values: the rigors of the scientific method (including reproducibility), research integrity and ethics, open minds, and critical thinking. Under no circumstances should we ever sacrifice any of these values; the CRU emails, however, appear to violate them" This is from her open letter. New York Times For any editor to suggest that i used a blog source to put words into Dr Currys mouth is wrong, and i ask you redact your statements. mark nutley (talk) 20:13, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment by WMC, moved from below: Lar, this is twaddle, unless you regard blocks and a 1RR restriction as "at best a slap". You seem to have lost touch with what has actually occurred William M. Connolley (talk) 18:19, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pomposity and laconicism

I hadn't read the alleged personal attacks in the msst recent Cla68 enforcement request, but Nuclear Warfare says he's iffy about one, which goes:

"You have no interest in her science, and that is regrettable, but that doesn't mean her biog should reflect that."

There's a certain laconic tone to that, but it's well chosen given that he's replying to a person who has stated, without shame or hesitation, that he thinks a sequence of blog postings, a write-up in The New York Times and an interview is "something of a watershed moment in [the] career" of a quite eminent and decorated scientist.

If only that were so, my old mate PZ Myers, once a mere associate professor, now a world-famous blogger, would be able to move to Harvard and trade in his blog for the Louis Agassiz chair once held by one of his heroes, Stephen Jay Gould.

As you can see, I lack William's talent for laconic humor. His comment was no personal attack, though it cut through the nonsense more surely than I could. Tasty monster (=TS ) 01:01, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WMC frequently personalizes disputes and baits other editors on article talk pages (yes, I can back that up). When Tillman made it clear that he, understandably, didn't appreciate WMC's remark, WMC refused to back off of his statement. Cla68 (talk) 01:29, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Admins? It's not clear to me how it has been concluded that WMC acted in the right. I see how his removal of blog-sourced sentences might be covered under WP:BLP, but he removed sentences sourced by the Times and The New York Times as well. (I suppose this applies to MN's treatment too.) I posed this question to SBHB above and did not receive a response. I'd love to have this cleared up.--Heyitspeter (talk) 03:58, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As I told you earlier, read MastCell's response. Short answer - it's within accepted practice to undo the entire edit that adds a serious BLP violation. Longer answer - there are issues with the remainder of the content. Just because something is referenced to a particular source doesn't mean it fairly represents the source (I don't think this does; for example, the final sentence of the first paragraph attaches the "we're experts, trust us" idea to transparency with research, when in fact the article presents is as a response to the loss of trust by the public in response to the CRU emails). And just because something is sourced doesn't mean it creates problems by distorting the person's record. And this was not the first time Mark Nutley was told that unverified blog comments cannot be used. An editor who uses an unverifed blog comment to support extraordinary accusations of "corruption" raises a huge red flag over all their contributions. Guettarda (talk) 04:16, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Dave souza, from below So adding blogs to BLPs are OK sometimes, and sanctionable other times? ATren (talk) 00:56, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Restoring balancing text and accepting that a better citation is needed differs from introducing a blog as a new source in the first place. The editor concerned at least appreciated that the source was inappropriate, and your edit which followed within minutes was appropriate in removing a now unbalanced and inappropriate paragraph. That removal has stood, without any dissent that I've found. As for blogs in general, it's been argued below that a NYT blog is an impeccable source for a BLP – the blog concerned fully meets WP:SPS, so its use seems reasonable. . . dave souza, talk 07:50, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response on proposed restrictions The prohibition against WMC even commenting on the appropriateness of sourcing is frankly abhorrent. I realize that Lar and LHvU have declared open season on WMC, but this goes too far. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 03:06, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. Lar mentions the [26] baiting of WMC which is funny because I have shown diffs on the talkpage where he has done just that. Here we have a case where certain editors created a BLP on a notable scientist who passed the Prof test and all they seem to want to do is highlight some recent criticism she made of the way fellow scientists have handled sceptics. But even this they have done in an extremely biased way using poor sourcing and misrepresenting any good sources to twist her meaning. WMC makes a perfectly legitimate and actually quite polite comment on the talkpage, which completely reflects the situation. Yes it is about the editor but last time I looked wikipedians weren't banned from making negative comments about editors actions when justified. Okay I will make a comment about certain admins down below. What sort of a totalitarian regime are we running here when Lar fails to push though heavy sanctions for a legitimate revert then he takes the ridiculous opportunity provided by LHvU's misguided civility crackdown to ban WMC from commenting on other editors. Nightmare, that is like tying his hands behind his back and in this instance for what? Lar please stop acting as an uninvolved admin before you turn this process into any more of a joke. LHvU, you are misguided here. Polargeo (talk) 05:27, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I really suggest that the two of you re-read my proposed restrictions; there is nothing about restraining Doctor Connolley commenting upon content issues, and everything about constraining comment directed toward another editor, opinions on why they edit as they do, or speculations upon their intellectual vigour or moral fortitude (or similar musings) - it is "Comment on content, not on the contributor" writ large, prompted by what I regard as exampls of Wikipedia:Civility#Identifying incivility (particularly point 1.d). If you have issues upon that, and the propriety in applying them, then you need to change the consensus regarding major Wikipedia policy. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:36, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That may be what you meant, but it's not what you wrote. Your recommendation was to restrict WMC with regards to "comment about another editor, their editing, the value of the sources quoted..." etc (emphasis added). To restrict comments on someone's editing is bad enough, though it's just about defensible if carefully phrased. But to restrict discussion on the usefulness of sources is indefensible and may even violate some of Wikipedia's core policies. I fully endorse "comment on content, not on the contributor" but the proposal goes far beyond that. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:11, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What WMC said in that situation was a fair comment. Please stop acting as some sort of extremist civility police. To extend any sort of restrictions based on it is a gross overreaction. If WMC had said "You are a total dick who doesn't even deserve to be spat on by scientist X, let alone be allowed to write their bio", or words to that effect, then I would be calling for sanctions against him. Polargeo (talk) 08:52, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This whole Comment on content, not on the contributor is massively overused often mistakenly to signify that something is a WP:personal attack. This is a misrepresentation of not only the rule but also the spirit of the rule and is hence WP:wikilawyering. After outlining the clear cases of what a personal attack is the actual text finishes with the statement When in doubt, comment on the article's content without referring to its contributor at all. If you are trying to class WMC's statement as a personal attack based on the fact that he has actually mentioned the contributor you are misinterpreting the rule in a quite extreme but unfortunately all too common way. Polargeo (talk) 09:56, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

SBHB, what I said in respect of WMC - in full - was, "Any comment about another editor, their editing, the value of the sources quoted, should be regarded as a statement and thus need to be sourced or evidenced." (added underlining). I had earlier noted my desire to prevent from Doctor Connelley from "opinionating" upon editors and their comments, so the sentence you partly quoted was to say that any comment by Doctor Connelley about an editor or their edits needed to be able to be referenced to a source, or to WP policy or guideline. Doctor Connelley can describe another editors contribution as poor or misguided or wrong, provided he can indicate a source where the content concerned has been noted as poor, misguided or wrong, or the relevant policy that equates the edit as poor, misguided or wrong (I would be happy to include the term "able" into the sentence, there should be no need for every instance to be ref'ed, just that it can be upon request.) I am suggesting that Doctor Connelley is disabled from sharing his personal opinion and judgement upon other editors and their contributions - per the nutshell quoted. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:25, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Subhead for convenience – newspaper blogs
[edit]

In discussion here, Mark has introduced what seem to me novel and unpersuasive arguments for accepting blogs on newspaper websites with copyright notices etc. so advice by others would be welcome . . dave souza, talk 22:36, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning WMC

[edit]
This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

WMC

[edit]
Collapsing for readability. NW (Talk) 23:55, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have to say that I very much agree with Guettarda's comments here in that WMC's actions were correct. Indeed, WMC followed up on the talk page, initiating a discussion with the comment "The section on views on climate change is grossly one-sided and amounts to a BLP violation. I don't have time to fix it now". The proper thing to do in a case like this is to do what WMC did, move discussion of the section to the talk page. In fact, seeing this revision of the article, I am tempted to invoke BLP special enforcement (which normally I would be loath to do) and ban Marknutley from editing BLPs. Using blogs to source a quote like that is utterly unacceptable. I will, however, wait for comment from other uninvolved administrators. NW (Talk) 02:30, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I find this entire incident to be a canonical example of the spin control I have been talking about for some time. In the real world we have a scientist, one whose views are in accordance with the generally accepted scientific consensus on AGW, who has "dared" to point out that there are some issues with her fellow scientists approaches to AGW and presenting results... not for their science per se but for how they comport themselves and engage in spin control. start added later Some of end added later ++Lar: t/c 21:22, 27 April 2010 (UTC) the statements by Ms. Curry are impeccably sourced added later, including to the New York Timesend added later ++Lar: t/c 21:22, 27 April 2010 (UTC). So what do we have here in our little world, then? A microcosm of the controversy itself! ...as our own cadre, led by WMC, is busily engaged in suppressing, or downplaying, any mention of the fact that anyone, even a scientist, even one who agrees with them on the substance, might have any issues with how things are done. I think WMC needs to be sanctioned and I suggest that he is not the only one. Claiming this is a BLP matter is disingenious in the extreme and he was edit warring to preserve his view of how the article was written, and being snarky to anyone who got in his way. I suggest that WMC be topic banned from all AGW articles for a year. ++Lar: t/c 02:51, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    How does [27], which is used to source "She has also commented that the scientists motives were "indicative of “circle the wagons/point guns outward” mentality which uses “ad hominem/appeal to motive attacks; appeal to authority; isolate the enemy through lack of access to data; peer review process”"" count as 'impeccably sourced'? NW (Talk) 03:01, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm referring to the stuff sourced to the NYT. Side issue, though. The real issue here is the spin control. ++Lar: t/c 03:09, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't find it credible that Lar continues to comment in the 'uninvolved administrator' section of this probation page. While he is welcome to offer his comments above, it is inappropriate for him to represent himself as an unbiased individual. There's nothing wrong with individuals holding one point of view or another, as long as those individuals are prepared to recognize their own particular biases and recuse themselves from exercising authority in situations where they have a conflict. Lar is, regrettably, over that line. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:42, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry if you don't like my take on things, but I'm uninvolved. I do not edit in this area. At all. If we are going to tot up all the folk who someone can claim is biased, there won't be any admins left at all. Consider the source of the bias charges when evaluating them. ++Lar: t/c 04:16, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    It's not that I have strong feelings about your 'take on things', nor do I feel that whether you edit in this area – or not – is the sole arbiter of what might constitute bias. My concern with your claims to lack of involvement regard the bias in your attempts to enforce this probation. Comparison between your arguments regarding WMC here with your comments on Marknutley, just up the page, is instructive.
    Marknutley joined Wikipedia in December as someone with no professional or educational background in the area of climate science, and immediately began edit warring. After violating WP:3RR (and drawing cautions and blocks), he eventually began filing badly-flawed 3RR complaints against other editors (including WMC). Marknutley's subsequent, ongoing, and spurious complaints targetting WMC demonstrated sufficiently severe frequency and poor judgement that he was barred from filing further complaints about WMC for three months. (Are there currently any other editors whose misuse of these sanctions has risen to the level of disruption required to draw such a restriction?) Despite this sanction, he still went on to level complaints regarding WMC. This led the enforcement request above. In response, you (Lar) first suggested that a renewal of the ban might be appropriate, and then rapidly backtracked to a one-month extension of the ban, backdated to the date of Marknutley's violation. Not only that, before the enforcement request against Marknutley closed, you decided to make an irrelevant and offtopic comment taking a cheap shot at WMC (""Admonishment to WMC is pointless" (full stop)... That about says it all, I guess...").
    In contrast, in this complaint regarding WMC, there appears to have been significant concerns regarding other editors' misuse of unreliable sources to discuss living persons. You've declared that he's part of some sort of 'spin control' conspiracy, and that he and other editors need to be banned for a full year(!) from all of the articles in this area. So yes, I believe that you are biased in this area — for and against your particular view of the truth of the climate change controversy (which you're entitled to), and consequently for and against particular editors in the enforcement of these sanctions (which disqualifies you from claiming lack of involvement). Staking out a staunch editorial position here while claiming a lack of bias because you're not touching the articles themselves is gaming the system. Your comments belong in the comments section above. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 05:37, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, no, I don't agree with your analysis. There is a pattern here. This is not the first time WMC has been brought here. Some of the complaints may not have been well founded and were properly rejected. Some even resulted in sanctions (properly so, in my view) against the complainer. But some were well founded but WMC got at best a slap, if that. There is a problem here, and it needs to stop. I am open to compromise on what to do, but I do not think that giving WMC a medal for his "BLP work" is at all appropriate as a reward. Sorry if you don't see the pattern, but I'm not involved in this area, and I do see it. ++Lar: t/c 10:10, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The question here is whether William violated 1RR on Judith Curry. The material he removed included quotes sourced to the comments section of a blog, as I think we all now understand. WP:BLP and WP:V both state unequivocally that "Posts left by [blog] readers are never acceptable as sources." William's removal of that material was consistent with policy; 1RR does not apply. If some editors are unclear about the requirements of WP:BLP, or believe the material in question to be appropriately sourced or acceptable, then we should educate them. William should have been more selective in his removal, as some of the material he removed was properly sourced. However, his actions were in line with a general trend toward an aggressive, shoot-first-and-ask-questions-later approach to WP:BLP, championed by some commentators in this thread and endorsed repeatedly by the Arbitration Committee, and as such a sanction - particularly a severe sanction like a 1-year topic ban - seems unsupportable. MastCell Talk 04:19, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • The BLP policy is being used as a smoke screen by WMC's many defenders, who have predictably formed ranks. The real issue here is that this is a canonical example of spin control. If a year is too draconian, I'm open to compromise but WMC should not get away with it. The enforcement request was properly brought, and WMC's actions are sanctionable. If he gets off with nothing in this, it will validate those who say that the playing field is not level, and that WMC and others control this article space to prevent even well sourced signs of dissent. Remember who Ms. Curry is... someone who has worked hard on the science around AGW. Hardly a sceptic. But even reporting her unease is unacceptable to WMC, who removed everything. That's spin control and it should not stand. No other conclusion is possible. ++Lar: t/c 04:24, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'm familiar with who Dr. Curry is, but I don't see that it makes a huge difference to this request. WP:BLP applies to everyone. Blog comments are not acceptable sources, and their removal from a BLP is exempt from 1RR/3RR - so I don't see that WMC's actions are sanctionable. Nor am I willing to commend William, since he should have been more selective in his removal. But I see that the properly sourced material has been restored to the article and its weighting is the subject of talk-page discussion, which is the process working. I don't see a lot for us to do here, other than to encourage all involved to be more scrupulous about their sourcing in BLPs, and request that people think critically and review the actual sources before making blanket statements about them one way or the other. MastCell Talk 21:13, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • (I'm "Lar-uninvolved", since I've never edited either the article not the talk page. Move my comments up if you move his up). As per the several comments above, there is nothing actionable here - indeed, WMC should be lauded for dealing with a BLP issue. If you, Cla, feel that there is a double standard, complain about the cases where BLP is violated, not about those where it is upheld. "Sorry, we executed an innocent man by accident. For fairness, we now need to eliminate all others, too" is not a good argument. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:19, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree with NW above, at least as far as these diffs are concerned. There may be an associated soap opera going on per Lar but actually the diffs do not demonstrate it and are defensible in my view. If we have spin control as a serious issue then let Lar raise it will examples and we can have a look, but claiming a POV motivation behind edits is not related to the sanctionability. --BozMo talk 07:34, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • I see rationales provided by WMC, so I think the that aspect of the request fails because we AGF that the reasoning was just that. I also think that in isolation the comments by WMC are within the terms of his civility restriction, but I am concerned that those restrictions are being gamed by WMC in that his tone and inferences create an uncomfortable environment within discussion involving him and those editors who may be considered as editing to a AGW skeptic viewpoint. I think the easiest solution would be a restriction on WMC opinionating on any such editor, or their edits, within the probation area. Any comment about another editor, their editing, the value of the sources quoted, should be regarded as a statement and thus need to be sourced or evidenced. If such comments are not, then WMC is violating his civility restriction and may be sanctioned (except possibly upon these pages). If WMC feels that this constrains his ability to comment within the probation area, then it is by his actions that this has come about. LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:51, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • Exactly so. ++Lar: t/c 14:57, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
            • And can we have a symmetric list of editors who are prohibited from opinionating about WMC? It seems to me that this is the elephant in the room which we are not addressing. --BozMo talk 22:27, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
              • I'm not seeing the need for that. Handle it on a case by case basis and come down on people who bait WMC without prior provocation (which will be far less once he's prohibited from commenting on other editors) and all will be taken care of in due course. ++Lar: t/c 02:56, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
                • Generally I don't support that because I cannot see enough evidence that he is the one baiting in general rather than responding. If you look at bullied kids in schools they often have behavioural issues but you need to see it all. Clearly there are many cases with different editors but the general situation in my view does not warrant a one sided action. And I repeat I would prefer a voluntary agreement for a particular list of editors and WMC not to comment on each other's editing, behaviour or knowledge base. Including him on you and you on him cos its getting me down both ways. --BozMo talk 06:20, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
                    • Are we officially stalled, here? Mn has a agreed form of wording relating to sources - it would be best if we could wrap this up. I would prefer to have something in the order of "WMC is reminded that commentary should be directed toward the content and not the contributor", but in any case believe that we need to close this request down so will accept another "no action" in this instance. LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:32, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Marknutley

[edit]
  • Invoking WP:BLPSE and WP:GS/CC, I am proposing a restriction on Marknutley for something along the lines of the following: "Marknutley is prohibited from introducing a new source, with some exceptions, to any biography of a living person or any climate change article without first clearing the source with another long-term contributor in good standing. Examples of high-quality sources that meet this exception include articles in peer-reviewed journals, books published by a well-regarded academic press, or newspaper articles published in the mainstream media." Obviously, the wording could be improved, but your thoughts? NW (Talk) 02:17, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's a sound principle. Apply it to every article covered by the sanction and every editor, though. Why single out just one editor? ++Lar: t/c 02:35, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Because so far I have only seen MN violate this principle. Point me to a number of other such cases of misuse, and I would be happy to expand this. NW (Talk) 20:23, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • OK, here's one. [28] (credit to Cla68 for finding it first, it's mentioned above...) ++Lar: t/c 21:30, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • Point of order: that wasn't a new source, it had been in the article for over a year[29] though it had lately been disputed. The edit summary "rv: please don't remove valid material, you can add a cn if you like" clearly invites questioning of the source. Not the same in principle. . . dave souza, talk 22:11, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hmmm... Would not a 0RR on sourcing, without talkpage consensus, be easier? MN would not be constrained in introducing a source, but could not revert its removal without consensus - or is this simply allowing any source from MN to be removed and then discussion stymied. I am thinking that the long term contributor in good standing would be one that is already regarded by some as being on "MN's side", which leaves us with the unpleasant potential of the ltc's coming under scrutiny.
    • I would also suggest that MN be placed under a "no comments on other editors" restriction as I am suggesting for WMC, as a further method of reducing some of the friction that occurs around his editing. LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:57, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • That seems fine with me, although I think there is merit in what I proposed. I have not seen evidence that Mark realizes his misunderstanding of the RS or BLP policies, and until such time that he understands this, I see ample reason to be preventative rather than reactive. NW (Talk) 20:23, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • I think your wording could be tweaked so to not include passing the proposed sourcing via another editor if the wording as what conforms to a "reliable source" is simply made very clear - even if it appears to be echoing WP:RS. Of course, if someone volunteers to mentor MN and his use of sources then it would be beneficial but I would prefer not to have that requirement. If we place a requirement for strict application of WP:RS - as it is commonly understood, not MN's take - then violation would be a sanctionable matter. It puts the onus on the editor to comply. I do take your point regarding being proactive rather than reactive in trying to resolve this. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:14, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • The level that I proposed was deliberately higher than the standard required by WP:RS. There are some cases where sources weaker than what I proposed are acceptable, but I am unsure if MN knows when to apply those. For that reason, I would like to have a mentor to advise him if at all possible (Cla68 seems like an excellent choice to help him if he would be willing). If we cannot find a mentor for Mark, then I suppose your proposal of 0RR for sourcing concerns would also work for me. NW (Talk) 23:18, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
            • I've proposed mentoring earlier, and I still think its a good idea. One problem with Mark is his strong confirmation bias. He forms his opinion based on unreliable sources, apparently seeing WP:RS as a quaint limitation to work around, not as a way to avoid, well, unreliable information. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 06:51, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
            • I agree to the proposal to see if there would be a volunteer to mentor Marknutley - are we going to suggest it is only in the area of sourcing, because I am not sure the potential pool will be very large if it is to cover every aspect of MN's editing within the probation area? LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:55, 29 April 2010 (UTC) Per the comments I have made in regard to a subsequent Request relating to MN's use of blogs as sources, I would note that this issue continues. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:25, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
              • I have asked Cla68 if he would be willing to mentor MN along the lines you suggested, but for now, I am going to propose a closure below. NW (Talk) 22:26, 29 April 2010 (UTC) Update: Cla has agreed to mentor Mark NW (Talk) 01:46, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Marknutley is prohibited from introducing a new source, with some exceptions such as articles published in peer-reviewed journals, books published by a well-regarded academic press, or newspaper articles published in the mainstream media, to any biography of a living person or any climate change article without first clearing the source with another long-term contributor in good standing. He is also prohibited from reverting the removal of sources that he added to an article without first gathering talk page consensus. Marknutley is encouraged to find a mentor who can assist in checking the reliability of sources and with more properly educating him on the reliable sources policy."

+ + + + + + + + + + + + I note that no-one troubled to inform me of this result on my talk page. I take that to mean that no binding result concerning me was invovked - obviously, had any such result been determined, I would have been notified rather than any discovery being left to casual chance William M. Connolley (talk) 18:48, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Correct. You are a long term contributor to the project and are fully aware of the content/contributor commentary nutshell, so I thought it would be impudent to place that notification upon your talkpage per WP:DTTR (and considered that you would likely be coming to this page and therefore come across it). Where a result would have impacted upon your ability to edit, you would have been promptly notified. Marknutley has also not been officially notified, since he has already started editing within the wording making such notification superflous. However, you have reminded me that I have not logged Mn's notification - so I thank you for that. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:55, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why is there no restriction on WMC introducing sources? He also added a blog source to an article, as was presented in the RFE. ATren (talk) 20:53, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No consensus was found for doing so. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:01, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Atmoz

[edit]

Atmoz (talk · contribs) by Marknutley (talk · contribs)

Atmoz is advised to review Wikipedia:Civility#Identifying incivility (especially point 1. d) and to apply it in interactions going forward. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:16, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Request concerning Atmoz

[edit]
User requesting enforcement
mark nutley (talk) 21:18, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
User against whom enforcement is requested
Atmoz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Sanction or remedy that this user violated
Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

  1. [30] Personal Attack
  2. [31] Profanity and another PA.
  3. [32] Another PA.
  4. ...
Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

  1. He already knows of the probation
Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
Up to you guys
Additional comments by editor filing complaint
The personal attacks are pretty nasty, attacking an editor just because his English is not perfect is just plain mean.
[33]

Discussion concerning Atmoz

[edit]

Statement by Atmoz

[edit]
  • I'm sorry, but I don't see any personal attacks in the first or third diffs. Telling someone that they may not be as fluent in English as they thought is not a personal attack. The "profanity" (fuck) is not in the second diff. The second diff wasn't very nice, but Nsaa accused me of deleting content by redirecting the article to another article. This is flatly false, as I showed with diffs. I completely merged the Climate Audit page into the Stephen McIntyre page. All of it. The fact that there was no prior discussion does not mean there was no consensus to do so. The fact that the merge stood for over a year shows there was consensus for the merge. That consensus might have changed, I don't care. But please don't accuse me of something I didn't do. I consider that a personal attack. -Atmoz (talk) 21:56, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by others about the request concerning Atmoz

[edit]
  • The terms of the climate change probation explicitly cover personal attacks and incivility. The diffs provided clearly demonstrate incivility at the very least. The probation covers "pages related to climate change (broadly construed)." The page in question is an AfD page for a climate change article. I would suggest that it is within the scope of the climate change probation "broadly construed". Of course it would not have been tagged as such, and Atmoz may legitimately not have realized that his behavior there might be reviewed under the probation. Nevertheless it is very obviously against the explicit terms of the climate change probation for one climate-change editor to behave so uncivilly to another climate-change editor in a climate-change-related area. Having said all that, it's a fairly trivial case with no real harm done to anyone. I believe a warning would be sufficient and appropriate. Thparkth (talk) 21:58, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Don't give a flying fuck" is well within range of language the community finds acceptable. See Wikipedia:Don't-give-a-fuckism, for example, and all the pages thank link to {{User DGAF}}. The rest of it is less than polite, but context is everything - the fact that Nsaa's English, while good, isn't up to the level of someone like Kim or Stephan (recall the "have you stopped beating you wife" complaint recently) does make the comment rather more hurtful if Atmoz intentionally threw that in his face. On the other hand, encountering someone who appears to be fluent but just doesn't quite get "plain English" is likely to provoke that (unfortunate) response. Guettarda (talk) 22:13, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Concur that "don't give a flying fuck" is a non-event and shouldn't be considered here. Thparkth (talk) 22:17, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but a single opinion by one editor does not a finding make, and the comment is not "a warning". --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:47, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That was an independent opinion by an uninvolved editor with experience looking at these types of edits at the Wikiquette board. Again, if you admins are serious about improving the level of discourse and civility in this topic area, you need to take a stand on editors belittling each other like this. Like I've said before, I think AGW is the worst area in Wikipedia for the way in which the editors treat each other, and it has been going on for years. Cla68 (talk) 23:11, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by Nsaa

This is so bad. I have no word for it. Why the heck should my language be subject to Atmoz comments at all? Why not just keep the discussion about what was discussed? I find it totally counterproductive and it harms Wikipedia. So yes give him a long block or a long topic ban for this so other people can start working. What do Atmoz try to achieve? Getting people angry so they make "mistakes" and can get them blocked/topic banned? Nsaa (talk) 01:29, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Atmoz

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This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Marknutley (yet again)

[edit]

Marknutley (talk · contribs) by William M. Connolley (talk · contribs)

Marknutley blocked 24 hours for technical violation of 1RR "any article, any 24 hour period" - noting Mn has requested he be unblocked to be allowed to work on drafts in userspace (no objection from blocking admin). LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:12, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Request concerning Marknutley

[edit]
User requesting enforcement
William M. Connolley (talk) 22:51, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
User against whom enforcement is requested
Marknutley (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Sanction or remedy that this user violated
Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation (1RR parole)
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

On Bishop Hill (blog):

  1. [34] (2010-04-28T18:46:34) Removes merge tags. Not explicitly marked as a revert, but clearly is: it reverts [35]
  2. [36] (2010-04-27T21:04:09) Marked as a revert

On The Hockey Stick Illusion

  1. [37]
  2. [38] (note that this revert is *after* the report here about the BH blog 1RR violation. Note further that this edit warring is to restore a blog/twitter reference)

More:

Failure to understand RS:

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

  1. He is on 1RR parole
Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
Std type of 1RR block
Additional comments by editor filing complaint
User denies that any violation occurs; see his talk
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
[40] (note: MN has reverted the notification [41])
  • Statement made in improper location (again, this time @LHVU), moved here from Admin section
If you're having problems understanding revert policy it would be better for you to have avoided issuing 1RR blocks William M. Connolley (talk) 07:22, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion concerning Marknutley

[edit]

Statement by Marknutley

[edit]

On The Hockey Stick Illusion Tags were removed per talk page consensus for no merge. The review which i reinserted had been removed under the claim the guy was not an expert book reviewer, However i found a source showing he has reviewed books in the past [42] so i put the review back.

On the Bishop Hill (Blog) I removed the tags per talk page consensus for no merge. I reverted the removal of reliably sourced material. Mainly the BBC and The Guardian which had been removed by a person who wants to delete the article.

I had not realized the removal of tags per consensus counted as a revert. mark nutley (talk) 23:33, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by others about the request concerning Marknutley

[edit]

I see no attempts to talk to MN before filing this request. It may have been an honest mistake. The disputed edit is also extremely recent. So I suggest WMC (or the enforcement 'committee') simply asks MN to self-revert to restore the merge tag, and if he agrees, collapse this thread. It'd save everybody a lot of time.--Heyitspeter (talk) 22:58, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not possible, wmc has already reverted me on the tags, against the talk page consensus i might add. Same with the other diff, as soon as someone adds content to the Bishop Hill (blog) article it gets reverted straight back out by the same guys who are trying to get the page deleted. After all being mentioned by the BBC and The Guardian are obviously not good enough for an article. mark nutley (talk) 23:03, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You mean Guettarda (diff).
Perhaps we can assume with GF that you were aiming to self-revert, and treat Guettarda's edit as your own w.r.t. his 3RR restrictions? Just a thought. I'm going to leave this to the discretion of the CC admins now. Happy editing.--Heyitspeter (talk) 23:08, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by Nsaa

I've just learn something new about the English word blogs. Mark nutley has shown great willingness here to self revert if he had got the chance. Nsaa (talk) 01:39, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I think that Storm in a teacup should redirect here. Not this section, this whole page. Happily, I don't think I'm part of anyone's team, so there won't be a request for enforcement for this otherwise disruptive comment. Thepm (talk) 09:51, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Hipocrite

MN is discussing it as opposed to edit-warring over it. As such, even though I think there's probably a 1rr violation in there, the rules are designed to improve the encyclopedia and the environment. Blocking MN at this point would not help. Thus, I suggest this be closed without action because probation is not a way to block people for no good reason. Hipocrite (talk) 21:46, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As Marknutlety has yet again engaged in stale revert warring without discussion ([43]), I retract my request for lienency in light of positive progress. Perhaps a break will do him some good. Hipocrite (talk) 13:36, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How is that revert warring? I`ve not removed that before. And there is no ref for that claim. Why not just say i can`t edit the articles at all for christs sake mark nutley (talk) 13:39, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Mark, either you assumed that edit would be uncontrovercial, or you discussed it on the talk page, right? Which was it? Hipocrite (talk) 13:40, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I figured removing unsourced POV stuff would be uncontroversial yes, it`s what we are meant to do. Your removal of the fact that the book is non fiction, saying in your edit summary that it is fiction is however controversial would`nt you say? mark nutley (talk) 13:44, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's as controversial as your removal of "polemic." Hipocrite (talk) 13:46, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No because the book is non fiction. mark nutley (talk) 14:01, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes because the book is a polemic. Hipocrite (talk) 14:09, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Response by William M. Connolley to LessHeard vanU
MN has two reverts. I've provided those two reverts. They occur within 24h. That they are not the same revert is irrelevant William M. Connolley (talk) 22:20, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment – LHvU is using the standard 3RR definition of reverts being to the same material in whole or in part, but if I recall correctly, it was established in earlier discussions that in relation to these sanctions 1RR means no more than one revert, regardless of whether or not it's the same revert. If the rules are to be changed again, clarification is needed. . . dave souza, talk 09:18, 30 April 2010 (UTC) add iirc . . dave souza, talk 09:49, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But you'll notice that *isn't* the defn he used when blocking me for 1RR William M. Connolley (talk) 09:53, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Your 1RR block was for reverting Marknutley twice relating to the same paragraph, indeed to the same opening sentence of the same paragraph, so I fail to see how I am supposed to have taken two dissimilar changes to the same text as being two completely different edits? Unless you are arguing that a revert is only a change to the reverters perferred version, and not a change from the revertees version. That is not a hair I had previously seen split. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:13, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Those aren't the same revert. You seem to be making the rules up as you go along in a desperate attempt to avoid finding fault with the skeptics William M. Connolley (talk) 15:02, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I provide the revets and the previous version reverted to for the two reverts as a point of information. As a further point of information, since WMC pretty much defined how 3rr is adjudicated, I'd consider him more authoratative than any policy document.

18:46, 28 April 2010 reverts [44]. 21:04, 27 April 2010 reverts [45]. If you are defining 1rr as "reverts the same thing more than once" then it's not a 1rr violation. However, those are both "reverts" and so someone who is not permitted to "revert more than once in a 24 hour span" is not permitted to do that, with the caveat that I place practical over rote rule following. Hipocrite (talk) 13:28, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The 1rr restriction is located at Wikipedia:General_sanctions/Climate_change_probation/Requests_for_enforcement/Archive5#Marknutley. It states "Marknutley is restricted to one revert per 24 hour period to any article in the probation area until 2010-10-01." Thus, while the reverts were totally unrelated, they were to the same article. Hipocrite (talk)

Result concerning Marknutley

[edit]
This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
  • (resp to WMC)Ummm... okay, I will wait for other admins (and others) to comment upon that interpretation of revert as regards 1RR. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:29, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Technically I think WMC is right per how the rules are written and used in practice. But MN may not have understood how RRs are worked out (it isn't obvious). So if this is the first time he is claiming "didn't know that" I am inclined to be lenient (I know, I hate sanctioning anybody)... --BozMo talk 20:51, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Following the comments by WMC and Hipocrite, I see how the wording could be construed (although I had not quite grasped that aspect when sanctioning WMC for what I deemed to be the meaning per 3RR) as no second revert to any part within 24 hours. As regards sanctioning, I did block WMC for the technical violation - and despite WMC's (continuing) disagreement with my call, and other editors suggestion it only just fell within the time scale - so I am unsure that we can allow MN this grace. I will enact the block, if that is the decision. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:02, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is a kind of "two wrongs don't make a right" argument to consider here. I don't see we should feel obliged to make equalhandedness more important than doing the right thing in each case. I also think with both this case and WMC we really need to stick to only blocking for prevention not as a punishment. However, I do hear your argument. --BozMo talk 07:03, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do you think not blocking MN for violating the same technical violation as WMC was sanctioned would prevent further disruption, with the potential of claims of bias toward one editor over another? As admins we are of course always going to be wrong, but we have to consider the ramifications of one type of wrong over another going forward - certainly in a situation like this. LessHeard vanU (talk) 09:28, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, am finding it hard to care much. Do what you think is best, with my blessing. Personally I am start to get the strong impression that to do the enforcement properly we should spend less time on this page and instead watch a subset of CC pages themselves more diligently. At present I only have four on my watch list and find trying to decide stuff from the diffs presented here when it is as subjective as Lar implies is just non viable. I wonder if we should assign ten pages each or something and stand there rapping knuckles before stuff comes here. --BozMo talk 10:45, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Polargeo

[edit]

Polargeo (talk · contribs) by Polargeo (talk · contribs)

point made, no action needed
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Polargeo

[edit]
User requesting enforcement
Polargeo (talk) 09:30, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
User against whom enforcement is requested
Polargeo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Sanction or remedy that this user violated
Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

  1. [46] I inappropriately acted against Lar’s comment in the uninvolved admin section. I am involved and I believed that Lar was also involved. Both our comments were moved as inappropriate but I should know better this was the wrong way to protest.
  2. [47] My comment was “Please move my comment it appears to be in the wrong section. This is the section where "uninvolved" admins become more imortant than other editors based on, well nothing really.” This was pure disruption per WP:POINT. I firmly stand by this as I believe this is a terrible situation to put on this section of Wikipedia but as I seem to be the only person who agrees with myself this is not good. This comment was also moved per my request.
  3. [48] need I say more?
Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

There are no prior warnings. I understand the situation.

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
I should be banned from ever adding a comment to the section for uninvolved admins on Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement. If admins wish to take this further and ban me from ever editing the page Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement then that would be acceptable to me and I would not complain, in fact I think it would help.
Additional comments by editor filing complaint
This is not a joke or a disruption. It is a genuine attempt by myself to resolve this situation. ATren was confused about my involvement from the comments I made and assumed I was genuinely trying to comment as an involved admin.

I disagree passionately with this probation. I believe it was initially not advertised wide enough to be a proper consensus. I think it is a joke where every small issue that would otherwise go unnoticed now invites every nutcase (including myself) to come and have some sort of partisan say on it. The very idea that three or four self appointed high sheriffs could ever police this area is a joke and goes against my core feelings about what Wikipedia should be. My comments in the admin sections are largely to do with a protest against Lar’s involvement but that is not the motivation for this request. The motivation is to bring about a sanction on myself which clears up my involvement status and in extreme prevents me from commenting in the enforcements area altogether which is an area I fundamentally disagree with.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
The requesting user is asked to notify the user against whom this request is directed of it, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise.


Discussion concerning Polargeo

[edit]

Statement by Polargeo

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I think Polargeo is right and I should be banned. The level of the ban is obviously up to uninvolved admins to decide on. This would violate WP:POINT if Polargeo had not genuinely requested a ban per sanctions. He has requested this and as such I am prepared to accept any decision based on his request and feel it would do me good. Polargeo (talk) 10:53, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have several times commented as an uninvolved admin when I clearly was involved and therefore should be banned from doing this again, ever. Sorry if this sounds a little strange. I am really genuine about this. Polargeo (talk) 11:36, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If raising this enforcement request is perceived as disruption then that is only a further reason to bar me from acting as an admin in the enforcement area and possibly even ban me from enforcement altogether. Polargeo (talk) 11:39, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I wish to avoid any confusion and I will comply 100% with any sanctions. Polargeo (talk) 11:40, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. Here is the point. I am an admin but I don't wish to act as an admin in this area. I want people to see that I am not an admin as far as the area of sanctions enforcement goes. I was motivated to request a ban by ATren lumping me together with enforcement admins and complaining of my possible bias. I think a ban will serve to show my non-admin status in enforcement to everyone and keep me away if I ever start to wobble in my resolve. However, it does seem nobody is keen to grant my request and so if any uninvolved admin wishes to reclose this as a pointless mistake then feel free to. Polargeo (talk) 07:52, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by others about the request concerning Polargeo

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This request for enforcement was filed in violation of WP:POINT. I suggest the applicant withdraw.--Heyitspeter (talk) 10:03, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

comment I think the applicant should have tried discussing the matter with Polargeo before filing the complaint. It's a clear breach of AGF to just bring the complaint here without trying a bit of discussion first. I think applicant should be flogged with a warm lettuce until he calls "uncle". Polargeo on the other hand should be given some warm cocoa and buttered toast. Thepm (talk) 10:09, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Just to (perhaps foolishly) take this seriously for a second, there is no actual breach of the climate change probation alleged or demonstrated here, except arguably in raising this enforcement request itself. I suggest that having made his WP:POINT, Polargeo should simply blank this entire request and leave it to live on in legend as the strangest thing in the already-strange history of this page. Thparkth (talk) 11:30, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I believe this diff posted be Polargeo above [49] sums up the matter. This request is nor a joke or a point it's a problem with the self accused.--Cube lurker (talk) 18:46, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree Polargeo (talk) 19:01, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you're looking for some advice Polargeo, I would suggest not climbing the Reichstag to try to avoid losing an argument. Cla68 (talk) 22:52, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Polargeo

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This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Thegoodlocust

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Thegoodlocust (talk · contribs) by William M. Connolley (talk · contribs)

Ban reset to 2010-11-07. - 2/0 (cont.) 05:30, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Thegoodlocust

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User requesting enforcement
William M. Connolley (talk) 21:59, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
User against whom enforcement is requested
Thegoodlocust (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Sanction or remedy that this user violated
Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation Banned from discussing climate change, including user talk pages [50]

Deliberate incivility and baiting, ethnic slurs: [51]

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

  1. Piles o' stuff in User_talk:Lar#Can_you_imagine...
Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

  1. He is under santion
Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
As deemed appropriate by a really uninvolved admin
Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Note deliberate incivility by TGL, obviously LHVU / Lar will now need to "narrow" the meaning of slur to exclude this use William M. Connolley (talk) 20:33, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
[52]

Discussion concerning Thegoodlocust

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Statement by Thegoodlocust

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The topic ban extending to user talk pages is clearly not valid under the climate change probation (esp. ones that have been repeatedly stated to be an open forum for discussion) nor was the topic ban valid to start since 2over0 (who basically disappeared after unilaterally declaring the topic ban - likely out of some sense of shame) didn't even bring the discussion to this noticeboard. Of course, this is brought up, again by Connolley, because I'm daring to defend someone that he wants gone - attack, attack and attack. TheGoodLocust (talk) 22:35, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Update: Bozmo appears to have changed his definition of the scope of the probation; when a similar problem came up with WMC, he correctly stated that the probation didn't apply to user talk pages (correcting me in fact). TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:22, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Bozmo: I was making the request to you as a courtesy instead of making an RfC. The previous link has flat out shown that you change your interpretation of probationary scope depending on who is on the pillory and I was hoping that even you would take pause when presented with such damning evidence. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:20, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Awickert

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I brought up the original topic ban (coincident with 2/0's) against TheGoodLocust. While this could be a technical violation of the ban (haven't checked), I don't see any problem with TGL's behavior at Lar's talk. I originally brought it up for his grandstanding/aggressive behavior at article talk pages, which I saw to be detrimental to collaboration and article-space editing. I found this request because I just responded to him in a very civil conversation at Lar's talk. In addition to the civility, this conversation is ongoing at an out-of-the-way venue (i.e., not one of the article talk pages) with the blessing of the venue's owner. I am afraid that a topic ban extension will be detrimental to the environment here, as I think TGL will be nabbed for a crime he didn't think he was committing (yes, maybe its in the rules, but...), and that such an extension simply will create more bitterness that will extend into the future and beyond the realm of TGL's work here. I would suggest that TGL's topic ban not be extended, and that he be encouraged to continue the currently-more-productive mode of behavior that I see at Lar's talk. Awickert (talk) 01:38, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by others about the request concerning Thegoodlocust

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I am recusing from uninvolved admin commentary, since I was part of the same discussion noted by Doctor Connelley and specifically addressed TGL. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:25, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And yet the admin who got me talking about climate change on Lar's talk (baited?) has not recused himself and is, in fact, wanting to extend an already illegitimate ban that I've only followed out of sheer laziness even though I've stayed far away from climate change articles and their talk pages for 3 full months. TheGoodLocust (talk) 22:42, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Could you be more specific, preferably with diffs, about how you were "baited" by an admin who "got you talking" about climate change? MastCell Talk 23:04, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
[53] "sadly for you I am still a trained scientist and therefore more inclined to the scientific methodology and consensus, which is an area where WMC excels." Or you could go with the previous post of his in that same topic. I consider that baiting since I am quite a fan of science and don't like people trying to marginalize my beliefs as unscientific, nor to I appreciate the annoying suggestions that crop up frequently of creationism/ID sympathies (I'm an atheist). TheGoodLocust (talk) 23:13, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No one invited your comments at a third party's talkpage, and I was as forgetful of your restriction as likely they were. I therefore do not see any attempt at baiting, and think you might withdraw that allegation. I also strongly suggest that you do not make interpretations on either the validity of the original restriction or the admin's rationale in doing so - the admin who is commenting is suggesting a response that is unlikely to appeal to any other sysop who reads your claims here. LessHeard vanU (talk) 23:05, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, Lar did invite me to use his talk page, several times, and I think it is a very healthy thing to have such an outlet (for all parties). And yes, the restriction 2over2 imposed on user talk pages does not fall under climate probationary sanctions and is certainly not preventative as admin actions are supposed to be. After all, the probation clearly states, "bans from editing the climate change pages and/or closely related topics." And I don't think Lar's talk page qualifies under that definition - that definition was meant to include things like esoteric biographical articles and not userspace. TheGoodLocust (talk) 23:18, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Your topic ban, including user talkpages, was clarified here, before Lar (or I) became involved. Lar's invitation would have been made in good faith, in ignorance of the detailed terms of the ban. The issue of interpretation of bans, sanctions, etc, is why there are these long-winded discussions on these pages now - so everyone knows, or can refer to, the extent of the decisions. Your ban was before this practice was established, but appears otherwise within the remit given to admins by the Probation. Personally, I think it sucks just a little and you have been snared by your and other people's (me included) carelessness - but I also think you should accept this harsh lesson and accept the minimal sanction being proposed. LessHeard vanU (talk) 00:30, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There were always longwinded discussions - as long as the sanctions were discussing someone like WMC. Skeptics were far more likely (the only people I believe) to get unilateraly banned by someone like 2over0. And yes, he can clarify or declare his sanction as much as he likes but it simply is a massive overreach, to ban my use of user talk pages, that simply isn't available as a means of sanction via the way the probation was set up. TheGoodLocust (talk) 01:00, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

While there's room to argue whether s/he crosses the line before that point, this is a clear violation of his ban: I suppose my main problem with the whole thing is that the fundamentals of the theory don't make any sort of logical sense. For example, all the catastrophic scenarios of runaway global warming, envisioned by computer models, only work by assuming that the 3-4% of CO2 that man produces (1.52 × 10-5 of the atmosphere) will cause positive feedback loops - this just doesn't make sense to me because CO2 has been so much higher in the past. It is a giant non sequitur - and add that other phenomena better explain events and it all seems rather silly. TheGoodLocust (talk) 17:35, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Blaming others for "baiting" doesn't really hold water. Not only are you responsible for your own actions, but it also seems pretty clear that TGL raised the issue of climate change by saying I'm not sure how I feel about you Bozmo. I don't like that you've set up carbon permit trading (seems like a major COI). With that comment, TGL initiates the conversation between him/herself and BozMo. Guettarda (talk) 00:48, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Which was in direct response to him calling me out by name on a page I watch. I guess you missed that part. Odd how Less has the integrity to recuse himself and not the person directly responsible for my so-called breaking of the violations (and since you mentioned that comment, a person who has mistated facts about me in the past in an attempt to ban me). TheGoodLocust (talk) 01:00, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Diffs, please. LessHeard vanU (talk) 01:04, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
[54] He stated I had done 4 reverts in 24 hours (I hadn't) and understated WMC's reverts. TheGoodLocust (talk) 01:18, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Since there were a number of complaints about tgl in a short period it seems a good idea to link to the whole conversation [55] but as I recall the fourth revert was just outside 24 hours so I was slightly incorrect. --BozMo talk 08:25, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Odd how when there are a number of complaints against WMC in a short period they get "closed as a mess" (ignored) instead of being dealt with. And yes, you were "slightly off" in that the extra diff would've made me break 3rr, and you were slightly off in that WMC had an extra revert that you didn't count (as pointed out by Unitanode). However, I did edit war and was sanctioned for it and now understand the edit warring rules better (I'd been going by WMC's example - and I believe he'd actually been formally warned by Arbcom for his edit warring). TheGoodLocust (talk) 09:45, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm confused as to how an edit back in February caused you to break your ban on discussing climate change 3 months later. Guettarda (talk) 04:52, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not here to resolve your confusion. I'm here because WMC was trying to improve the project by dragging me back here. I hope he gets what he is wishing for. TheGoodLocust (talk) 05:01, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You said: "Which was in direct response to him calling me out by name on a page I watch". But your diff points to an edit 3 months ago. I really don't think you're saying an edit from 3 months ago "baited" you into discussing climate change on Lar's talk page. So what are you saying? Guettarda (talk) 05:09, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The diff was obviously about what was in the parantheseses since I assumed Less was capable of scrolling up on the previously provided diff to see Bozmo call me out by name. I thought this was quite clear and blazingly obvious, but then again I thought the same amount the simple math in our previous discussion where you required further explanation. Cheers. TheGoodLocust (talk) 05:16, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Banning an editor from discussing a topic on user talkpages is the same as banning every other editor from initiating discussion about the topic with said editor. That seems quite a restriction - why shouldn't editors be able to participate in civil discussion on each others talkpages? I see the link to where the block notice was left on TGLs talkpage, but does anyone have the link to the discussion that gave consensus to the terms of the block? Seeing that discussion would give the terms more context in light of this request. Weakopedia (talk) 07:05, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I do not think the terms of probation say anything about requiring consensus for the terms of a block. Uninvolved admins have wide discretion to do that kind of thing and the practice of seeking consensus (and also erring on the side of inaction) is a recent practice. Anyway, this is not the place or occasion for reviewing the original decision; this is for dealing for infringments of an existing block. --BozMo talk 07:50, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, it's not required that there be consensus. It is often helpful to get it first, and it's a common practice here (although not elsewhere), but it's not required. ++Lar: t/c 17:13, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As I stated previously the "erring on the side of inaction" is not a recent thing - it is simply the status quo of sanctions for one side of this debate while the other side has gotten unilaterally banned when they get too uppity. As for weakopedia's original question, AFAIK no other admins were consulted on the ban and indeed, if standards were applied equally people like WMC would've been banned 10 times over by now due to his far worse behavior. 2over0 simply went out of his way to diff mine and then ban me without asking other admins for input. TheGoodLocust (talk) 08:25, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. There was a concurrent complaint about you on the probation page which got closed without action as no longer necessary however. --BozMo talk 10:33, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
@ TheGoodLocust Have you ever tried discussing this with 2/0? He is understanding and listens to concerns. Your attacks here are not the way to go about things though. My understanding is that 2/0 left because he wanted to edit articles and not burn out from all of this stuff. As Lar always says, stop blaming others and take responsiblity for your own actions. You are blaming everyone above for this situation and not saying anything about your own behavior about this. I think that the sanction should be extended because of this behavior you are showing. Sorry, --CrohnieGalTalk 13:36, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Re Lars comment in the section below; I agree that this should be clarified, since it appears that the original intent was to prevent disruption of CC related space and the antagonism of certain editors. Posting on editors talkpages where they are welcome or otherwise invited, but not where there is comment already from one of those parties with whom TGL's restriction is intended to reduce interaction, may be permitted. I also agree that RfC's, like RfArb, is an area where such restrictions are suspended. LessHeard vanU (talk) 15:41, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is rather clear from the clarification[56]on TGL's comment at Marknutley's page [57] , that it included "suggestions" and other indirect involvement in CC related space. From what i can recall it was either a complete ban, or a wide topic-ban - and in the interest of congeniality and a feeling that TGL might have things to offer to WP outside of this area - it ended as a wide topic-ban. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 17:07, 2 May 2010 (UTC) [corrected link to clarification, moved the two links around --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 17:55, 2 May 2010 (UTC)][reply]
Which can be revised if there is a need. ++Lar: t/c 17:13, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Of course it can. It can also be completely overturned. But that doesn't exclude the need for full disclosure of what the specifics were, so that a decision can be based upon such. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 17:59, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oh absolutely. Specifics are always good. We've had some confusion about what things were in force and the like, lately too (e.g. with TGL), so the point is well taken. ++Lar: t/c 18:07, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Rather than extending the ban, I think it should be clarified/narroewd - so lets be clear. TGL is subject to a ban. He breaks it. Lar's response is no sanction whatsoever, but the ban itself should be narrowed. Yet more bending over backwards to be helpful towards the "skeptics" William M. Connolley (talk) 18:37, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest you look at Bozmo's talk page - you broke the same restriction and back then he decided that user talk pages were not subject to the climate change probation (and indeed they are not mentioned in the rules). Or, if you like, there was this time when 2over0 not only unilaterally closed a complaint against you, but refused to reopen it even after being asked to by several other admins. TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:15, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed TGL is subject to a ban, and BozMo's suggestion is that the violation is noted and TGL warned against further infractions. Lars suggestion is that some consideration is given for the ban to be varied going forward, not that the violation is disregarded under a new definition of the original ban. It is within the remit of the admins to see if there is a consensus for variations of existing sanctions, since it is common practice to make them more stringent or wider ranging when it is concluded that the existing wording has not achieved the desired outcome and may also be narrowed or varied when reflection provides reason to do so. Not all breaches of the Probation, or editors restrictions and even WP policy, are met with the application of the maximum sanctions available. This is true of many editors reported here. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:38, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The message sent by the proposed close is clear: "If there is any real or imagined ambiguity in a sanction proposed here, you should violate the sanction (or at a minimum test its limits) without asking first. The worst that can happen is that there will be a 'clarification' of the sanction." If that is indeed the message you want to send, go ahead and close the case in this way. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 20:27, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As I've already demonstrated, when this exact same issue of probationary scope came up with WMC it was dismissed, and, in fact, Bozmo's opinion on the scope of the climate change probations was quite different then. TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:32, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I concur with BozMo's proposed wording, that future violations of the ban - in whatever form it takes - will result in a 3 month extension (or 6 month, if it is decided to open some avenues to a form of restricted access to be decided). I know this isn't quite what BozMo proposed, but the discussion is ongoing on the latter aspect. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:44, 2 May 2010 (UTC) I now suggest that the original topic ban, in the most stringent reading of its provision as clarified by Admin 2/0, be extended by not less than 3 and not more than 6 months, given that the olive branch offered in varying the conditions going forward has been used as a bludgeon in reactivating old issues. It appears that the behaviour that the topic ban was intended to remove from CC related space - as I said, including editor talk pages - is still in evidence. Enough. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:30, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK. Re-reading commentary in the "uninvolved" admins section below it's not entirely clear what the proposed close happens to be. Lar proposes that the appropriate response to the violation is to weaken the sanction; BozMo's suggestion is to clarify the sanction. You do not have a response there, but in light of the above your response to appears to be "don't do it again, and this time we really mean it." So it appears the admins are not of one mind as I had gathered from my first reading. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) PS: As an aside, perhaps slurs against someone's nationality are acceptable because they were not explicitly prohibited by the terms of his sanction? Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 21:25, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
lol, that's right it was a "slur." I intentionally slurred my own family (Kaiser FYI). This is the fine sort of interpretation that got me topc banned in the first place - and which is conspicuously absent when it comes to WMC et all. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:33, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think TGL is hardening attitudes by his continuing violation of the existing understanding of the topic ban and his apparently increasingly bellicose commentary. I am striking and replacing my comment above. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:30, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It isn't a violation. Bozmo has stated in the past that user talk pages are not subject to the probation. I was merely following his guidance. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:33, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The admin who placed the ban clarified that it was, and until consensus changes that is still the case. BozMo may have been voicing an opinion, but I am certain was not varying the terms without the aforementioned consensus to do so. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:51, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Clearly, the terms of applicability in terms of pages of the specific ban prohibiting tGL from discussing Climate Change widely across Wikipedia is not the same thing as the area on which the general probation terms apply. tGL was banned from discussing CC on a wider area than the probation area itself for reasons which are perhaps becoming apparent. This has been pointed out already but I think tGL is not managing to listen well. --BozMo talk 22:02, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well "clearly" if I was not banned under the rules of the climate change probation then this case shouldn't be before the climate change probation enforcement board. And yes Bozmo, the reasons are apparent, I tend to find and point out hypocrisy and inconsistency that some would rather not see the light of day. TheGoodLocust (talk) 22:08, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Odd how his opinion on the rules changed so drastically in my case - either he thinks user talk pages are subject to the probation, as he states now, or they are not, as he previously stated, and which the climate change probation itself implicitely states. I would like to know what changed his mind all of the sudden. TheGoodLocust (talk) 22:05, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My mistake was that I misread probation for ban, (or the other way round). No, the Probation does not cover user talkpages. You, however, are banned from commenting in relation to CC matters everywhere except RfArb and RfC pages - and your mistake is continuing to flout the ban. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:13, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I believe we are making some progress, but you've confused me a bit. Since the probation does not cover user talk pages, then what exactly am I being accused of? I've respected the probation ban w/ regard to how the rules are set up (no edits to any article, article talk, or even on this page until this came up). TheGoodLocust (talk) 22:30, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
While the Probation covers violations within those spaces, a sanction such as a ban following from those violations may cover more than just the probation area; such as, for instance, Wikipedia. In the instance upon which the topic ban reach was clarified it appears that you were attempting to proxy your arguments by presenting detailed comment at another users talkpage. Had this been permitted, then the restriction on contributing to the CC article area would have nullified. Thus you were prohibited from discussing CC related topics pretty much everywhere within project space. A ban from areas outside of the topic space is permissible, where it may be considered that they will be used to circumvent the ban. LessHeard vanU (talk) 23:19, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So in short, in my case the bounds of the probation were extended while in WMC's case the bounds were followed - and in each seperate case Bozmo argued that the scope was different. I find this to be a very interesting case w/ regards to Bozmo since he not only initiated the conversation which brought this complaint, has changed his mind regarding the scope of the probation, and has taken what I thought was a relatively kind gesture at his talk page as a reason to extend my ban for several months. I don't recall him being so strict! TheGoodLocust (talk) 23:29, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]


n.b. BozMo appears to be a teensy bit involved in the RFC/Lar discussion, and can certainly not be considered totally neutral here. Rather like the cat in the mouse's poem in Alice. Collect (talk) 22:50, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I like the analogy. No one claims to be neutral; articles and edits can be neutral but people cannot be. Lar and I are in amiable disagreement at present on some issues. But I can claim to be uninvolved, and actually the way this probation works having some range of views on uninvolved admins is, in my view, healthy. Generally speaking Lar and I both listen to each other's views too. --BozMo talk 08:00, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. You would be amazed how many folks here know nought abot classics <g>. (My favorites are ones who do not know about piling Ossa on Pelion.) Where it is now accepted that tGL's ban will not apply to certain process pages and user pages, does it make sense to use violations which were due to such posts as a reason for extension of the ban? You will note, moreover, that I even spoke up for the famed Okip elsewhere, so I am not a believer in using grudges as a means of determining penalties. Collect (talk) 11:04, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Arguable and there was a point in the below discussion when I had come to this conclusion but I went through the sequence of his contributions again and all in all I think the analysis of 2/0 is correct. --BozMo talk 11:23, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As I see it, the point of the sanction was to deny TGL the use of Wikipedia as a soap box, so that other editors are not forced to either let his wrong claims stand or spend the time to refute them. I don't see how this purpose is served by allowing him to soapbox on certain user talk pages, whether the user in question accepts this or not. While we grant some leeway to users on their user and talk pages, these are still project pages, and not under control of the user. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:49, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I tend to agree with that viewpoint. But on the other hand, you don't have to read user talk pages if you don't want to. People expressing content views there aren't necessarily going to have an effect on anyone or anything else... as long as their commentary is civil and otherwise within policy. ++Lar: t/c 15:50, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Lar and Bozmo should follow LHvU and recuse themselves. Their involvement runs the risk of this being thrown out, which I think it should be. Polargeo (talk) 15:24, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation states "bans from editing the climate change pages and/or closely related topics" Lar's talkpage is not a closely related topic so if this ban applies to Lar's talkpage it is incorrect. Polargeo (talk) 15:30, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
State specifically what the issue is, please, and I'll take your request under advisement. (pro-tip: asserting "you're involved" won't cut it, you'll have to give specifics) ++Lar: t/c 15:50, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Pro tip don't ask for the specifics when they are obvious, it just appears as though it is an attempt to throw up a smoke screen. I said you should follow LHvU. I do believe he summed up his reason [58] Did you also ask WMC to give more diffs than User_talk:Lar#Can_you_imagine...? Polargeo (talk) 16:41, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If they were obvious to me I would not have asked. What conversation was LHvU referring to? It wasn't obvious to me. And why exactly was that conversation a reason to recuse? I don't follow your last question, what is it asking? ++Lar: t/c 18:24, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My reasoning is my own, and not something to beat someone else around the head with - but, briefly, I chose to join a discussion on someone elses talkpage, forgetful of the ban and consider myself as partly responsible for the violation. Thus I felt I should not be in a position to decide on the matter. Other people may feel differently regarding their participation in the talkpage discussion and acting here, and that is fine. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:06, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Thegoodlocust

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This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Also at Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Lar. Disrespect of existing ban stated clearly at [59] Yes it is a clear violation now we have been reminded of the ban. Suggest we extend by a further 3 or 6 months with a ban if the terms are violated again? --BozMo talk 22:13, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To be absolutely clear despite tgl's comments about I did not recall the terms of the ban on tgl until this was posted if I ever knew them exactly. He seems to have returned first to Lar and then to WMC's talk page then to the RFC on Lar before engaging with me. And he made some vague and incorrect comments about my involvement permit trading which invited a reply from me. I would however be interested in Lar's view before fixing a decision. --BozMo talk 06:09, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I note the use of "really uninvolved" in the request for enforcement, which seems a preemptive strike. I don't think any of the admins here fit WMC's "really uninvolved" definition with respect to this matter, as we've all had conversations with TGL at one point or another. That includes LHvU and BozMo. This response of mine is to a direct question.
Rather than extending the ban, I think it should be clarified/narroewd to exempt user talk pages where TGL is welcome. A statement from the owner to that effect should suffice (this would mean mine, where he is welcome, since I host wideranging and open conversations on a regular basis, and I don't remove comments I disagree with or that are critical of me, but not WMC's, where he has been explicitly told he is not welcome and where wideranging and open conversations are apparently in general not welcome, and where comments that are critical of WMC or his approaches, or just from from people he apparently has animus toward are routinely removed. All within policy, to be sure but not likely to win any Miss Congeniality awards) Further repetition of comments on pages he's not welcome on would be sanctionable. Note that we cannot and should not extend CC enforcement to user RfCs. ++Lar: t/c 14:42, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. If you are saying he was explicitly welcome on your talk page I am happy that we just clarify where he can go. I had not seen the invitation you offered him but as host to the discussion I take your views seriously. However I think he also needs cautioning about the tendency displayed above to attempt to assume bias and bad faith where none exist (or in the case of bias where none is relevant). --BozMo talk 18:07, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
EVERYONE is welcome on my talk page, but I'm happy to make explicit invitations where that's needful for clarity. In TGL's case I think I did explicitly invite him at some point, perhaps on his talk, although I don't have the diff handy nor do I know of the ordering of events exactly (to the best of my recollection, it was after he gave me a barnstar though, and WMC responded with snarky mockery (note both the words and the edit summary), and TGL went to talk to WMC about it, and was in turn disinvited from WMC's page in what was actually a pretty mild way by WMC... ah here is my invite. ). So with that settled (?) I want to turn to the latter part, assuming bias where none exists is indeed not a good practice, and we all should be admonished not to assume it where none exists. So, support this approach. ++Lar: t/c 18:20, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Meanwhile tGL is continuing to violate the terms of his probation without invitation and repeat allegations of bias etc. even here [60] where he definitely was not invited. So the stuff on Lar's page is by invitation (thats ok), the stuff on the RFC is because even though a site ban was considered RFC's are always in play (50-50), the stuff on the RFC talk page not actually on the RFC is well, kind of nearly ok by association (75-25), the drop by at WMC's was provoked, the use of this probation to make allegations about the existing ban is... or hang on are we missing something? I am always quick to unblock people who have got the message and say they are changing [61] but here we have a clear case of someone still claiming they are right and the world has no justice and they want to carry on. So I think I would rather add three months to the probation period, and caution against allegations. But I am open to hear other views? Oh and varying the terms a little and clarifying them is fine by me, still.--BozMo talk 21:15, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well spotted. I apologize for inviting TGL to my talk page without first checking to see if it was ok or not, within his terms, that is... But I think we still should modify his topic ban to leave out user talk pages where he is invited. Subject to all normal restrictions on behavior, it's not a carte blanche or anything. As for the RfC, I think he needs to be able to comment on the topics that the RfC raises. But NOT on the content controversies themselves, only on admin and editor actions... after that (as your examples shade into darker and darker gray areas)... all that stuff is not allowed now and shouldn't be allowed after modification, if such be done. ++Lar: t/c 03:13, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from 2over0: As a general principle, I do not think that this probation includes the authority to ban someone from RfC/U, ArbCom, or appeal of any sanction to an appropriate venue; if someone edits disruptively in the normal sense in any of these cases, standard dispute resolution mechanisms should suffice. Discussions related to climate change taking place at usertalk are, I believe, covered by broadly construed; we have certainly included such discussions when considering sanctions. Discussions unrelated to climate change, even if evidencing similar disruption, should be treated in other venues. For instance, I endorse the close of Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement/Archive6#FellGleaming (2) as falling outside the remit of this board; previous sanctions and discussions here may be presented as relevant to discussions elsewhere, but we should not overreach purely for the sake of expediency. For also instance, a topic banned editor may appeal here or at AN/I, but should not otherwise comment here.

At the risk of invoking IAR, the question of whether an edit is covered by a ban should be viewed in the light of whether or not it furthers a climate change related dispute or is acting to circumvent or obviate the ban. LHvU's reasoning follows my own in noting that the evident primary effect of the edit in question was to continue to participate by proxy. It is well-established by wikiprecedent that such edits are covered by a topic ban. I chose to warn TGL instead of enacting a ban-evasion block because I hoped that the minimal intervention would resolve the issue; at least in the short term after that warning, I think that events bear out my reasoning.

It is the primary responsibility of a banned user to remember any restrictions on their contributions to this collaborative project. Intentionally baiting someone in an attempt to inspire a lapse of judgement or encouraging someone to edit outside the bounds of a ban would of course be disruptive. I do not think that either of these cases obtain here. A polite note by TheGoodLocust noting his withdrawal from the area should have prevented the matter from proceding any further. Honestly, for me, a non-disruptive chatroom style discussion at usertalk of general issues rather than specific articles or edits should require nothing more from us than a polite reminder that the entire rest of the internet remains available.

Crohnie brought this discussion to my attention a few hours ago (thank you); I have been avoiding this topic area for the last few weeks for a variety of reasons, but I feel I would be remiss to fail to comment on an issue where I am already involved. Glancing at the relevant pages then, I expected to leave the matter here. Looking more closely, however, TheGoodLocust is in blatant violation of his topic ban with edits such as: [62] or [63]. I believe that the standard procedure in these cases is to reset the ban. Given that he has also been continuing a personal dispute (ex:[64]), making comments like I'd assumed you hadn't posted it to the appropriate area because this was some sort of elaborate joke and that you couldn't possibly be serious in your request., and generally adopting a highly combative tone, I see no reason to act differently in this case. I am not really a fan of civility blocks, but I would like to remind TheGoodLocust that Wikipedia:Civility is good policy. - 2/0 (cont.) 07:21, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok so to move to a close, we reset the ban duration from now, clarify that RfC/U, ArbCom, legitimate appeal and Lar's talk page are explicitly excluded from the ban (you want this Lar?), and give a civility reminder? Fine by me. --BozMo talk 07:56, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Rather than naming my talk page specifically, I think a phrasing such as "user talk pages where TGL has been explicitly invited to participate" (and then maintaining a list) or similar might be better as it doesn't mean we have to modify things if someone else issues an invite. I do not myself see this set of transgressions as serious enough reason for a reset, I'd suggest instead tacking a month on to the end, but I'll go along with consensus as it appears to stand. ++Lar: t/c 12:10, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with preferring a general statement (preferably one that can be used as precedent) rather than naming Lar's talkpage specifically. I am uncomfortable with whitelisting talkpages on an invitation-basis given the established issue of proxying, but I also do not like the idea of telling Lar what he can do with his talkpage. Absent this topic ban, that discussion would be perfectly normal and well within WP:USER. At the same time, explicit discussion of articles needs to be included for the ban to mean anything.
I think we are in general consensus on the RfC/U, ArbCom, and legitimate appeals points. If someone wants to work up some boilerplate for future topic bans under this probation that might not be a bad idea.
In the interests of getting this resolved, I am okay with amending the ban to exclude Lar's talkpage and trusting him to give a nudge if discussion veers towards disruption or ban violation. I would prefer a reset in the interests of making enforcement more predictable, but in light of the above discussion I could accept tacking on a month. - 2/0 (cont.) 14:39, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm down with nudges. I confess I'm a bit queasy about just letting TGL talk about whatever he wants to. I'd prefer he circumscribed himself. ++Lar: t/c 16:02, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Haven't we reset Mark Nutley for infringements? I think a reset is less arbitrary, especially if we are diluting terms a little. Reset is I think a couple of weeks less than a three months extension, so to 3 Nov 2010? --BozMo talk 21:07, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We've done both. Whatever the rest of you think. ++Lar: t/c 21:30, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

ChrisO

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ChrisO (talk · contribs) by Cla68 (talk · contribs)

No further action needed. - 2/0 (cont.) 20:52, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning ChrisO

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User requesting enforcement
Cla68 (talk) 02:12, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
User against whom enforcement is requested
ChrisO (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Sanction or remedy that this user violated
Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation, videlicet, disruptive editing, personal attacks, and POV advocacy in climate change articles, but especially in the Bishop Hill (blog) article
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

  1. votes in AfD to "Delete" Bishop Hill
  2. removes reliably sourced text from Bishop Hill while AfD ongoing
  3. Does so again while AfD still ongoing
  4. revert wars on same material from Bishop Hill article
  5. again removes the material while AfD still ongoing
  6. removes reliably sourced material from Bishop Hill
  7. revert wars at Bishop Hill
  8. blanks entire section from another article (DeSmogBlog) which had recently passed Good Article revew by an independent, uninvolved editor after that article was used to counter his argument on sources in the Bishop Hill article
  9. redirects Bishop Hill article against consensus from AfD
  10. is blocked for the redirect
  11. removes link to Bishop Hill from a related article
  12. personalizes dispute and misrepresents source (newspaper blogs, as pointed out here are reliable sources)
  13. grossly exaggerates result of AfD discussion (more accurate observation)
  14. personal attack
  15. extended personal attack
  16. calls editor an "incompetent researcher"
  17. attacks edits by new editor
  18. personal attack- unsubstantiated accusation of off-wiki collusion
  19. personal attack (note edit summary)
  20. personal attack
  21. personalizes dispute
  22. pushes POV opinion
  23. personal attack (in context with previous comments)
  24. unhelpful attitude
Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Please correct the behavior. Cla68 (talk) 02:12, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Not at this time. Note, however, that I was blocked for 24-hours for this edit which, in part, reversed ChrisO's redirect of the article Cla68 (talk) 02:12, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
[65] (and response)

Discussion concerning ChrisO

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Statement by ChrisO

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This is an extremely selective and misleading presentation, which is simply nonsensical in some regards. It's a grab-bag of misrepresentations, out-of-context quotes and vague insinuations of wrongdoing. Given the deceptive and partial nature of Cla68's claims, I honestly can't interpret this as anything other than retaliation by an editor who recently got blocked. Let's go through these diffs:

1) Voting to delete is not a violation of any sanction or remedy. No explanation of how this is a violation - it's absurd to claim this as some sort of violation.

2-7) Editing an article that is before AfD is not a violation of any sanction or remedy. AfD is meant to encourage a focus on resolving problems with articles, if they can be resolved. An ongoing AfD does not preclude editors from working on articles, and that necessarily includes removing poorly sourced material and material of questionable relevance. Articles are often greatly improved as a result of this process - either by being expanded or by being cleaned up.

8) I removed content in DeSmogBlog that I felt was trivial and crufty. This problem was pointed out by two other editors before I edited it, so it was certainly not in response to a counter-argument. See Talk:Bishop Hill (blog)#Blanking of cited content from "Please read DeSmogBlog" onwards.

9-10) I redirected the Bishop Hill (blog) article after it had been reduced by another editor to a single sentence which contained no more content than was already in the destination article.[66] I made this clear in my edit summary.[67] Cla68 reverted me [68], was blocked and then falsely claimed that he was reverting vandalism.[69]

11) Removing a single link from an unrelated article is not a violation of any sanction or remedy. No explanation of how this is a violation.

12) False claim by Cla68 - I was in no way "misrepresenting" a source as non-reliable. I was pointing out to Marknutley that the source was not "in a national newspaper" as he had claimed but was a blog hosted by a national newspaper's website. The nature of a source is an entirely different question to whether the source is reliable or not.

14) Not a personal attack - I was pointing out that editors who are regular contributors to blogs that are the topic of articles may not be best placed to assess its importance objectively.

15-16) Misrepresentation of context by Cla68. He unaccountably fails to mention that Marknutley is currently blocked for an extended period after being caught plagiarising copyrighted material in multiple articles - this is being discussed at the moment at User talk:Marknutley#Block. Cla68 is certainly aware of this, since he's posted in that discussion. Marknutley is also the subject of a copyright investigation at Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/20100506. My comments about Marknutley's editing being problematic were posted shortly before he was blocked for exactly the kind of problematic behaviour I was identifying, and is the basis of a draft RfC/U that I'm writing up. Criticism of an editor's conduct and contributions is entirely on-topic for the purposes of an RfC/U.

17) Criticism of material that had been added. Comments focused on content not the contributor; not a violation of any sanction or remedy, and no explanation of how this is a violation.

19) Criticism of material that had been added. Comments focused on content not the contributor; not a violation of any sanction or remedy, and no explanation of how this is a violation.

20) Misrepresentation of context by Cla68. Another editor had posted: "Its just a harmless little stub about a silly blog, its not going to change anything at all in the real world at all, one of the things I find is a good thing to remember is that what is written on this wikipedia is more or less irrelevant, no one puts any store on it, why not just take it off your watchlist if you don't like it?" I replied: "So why are you here, if you think it's so unimportant?" This is, at worst, no more than a sarcastic response - clearly not a personal attack.

21) Misrepresentation of context by Cla68. I asked SlimVirgin why she was apparently unaware of the previous discussions or the consensus-building work which was going on, which has been completely disrupted. She subsequently acknowledged that she was not aware of the contentiousness of the material that she had added/restored.

22) Misrepresentation of context by Cla68. I offered my assessment of the disputed content. That's what a talk page is for. Not a violation of any sanction or remedy and no explanation of how this is a violation.

23) Misrepresentation of context by Cla68. Not a personal attack. Numerous editors on the talk page (Guettarda, Yilloslime, William M. Connolley, Kim D. Petersen, dave souza, ScottyBerg) have repeatedly criticised Marknutley's approach of filling out the article with trivial passing mentions of the subject, some of which had been unreliably sourced, rather than reliably sourced substantive coverage. I was thinking of Marknutley in that comment, but carefully avoiding mentioning him by name, precisely to avoid it being interpreted as a personal attack on a specific editor.

24) Offering an assessment of the poor quality of an article is, needless to say, not a violation of any sanction or remedy. Saying that I think an article is too poor to reach GA status is not so much an "unhelpful response" as, apparently, an unwanted one. -- ChrisO (talk) 03:12, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by others about the request concerning ChrisO

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Comment by Ratel
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Let me get this straight: ChrisO is being carpeted here basically for opposing the existence of an article about a blog written by a British accountant about his untrained and inexpert scepticism of global warming. I can see nothing wrong with what he's done, even given Cla68's long list of arguable transgressions. This is just wikilawyering, IMO. No doubt this statement will now be used against me as an example of a heinous "personal attack". ► RATEL ◄ 02:23, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, Ratel, this one of the few forums where the rules on personalizing disputes are relaxed to some degree. Cla68 (talk) 02:34, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
ChrisO deserves a medal for services to Wikipedia. If this article is allowed to exist, why can't I start a blog about global warming, get a few mentions in the blogosphere and local press, then start a wikipedia article about it? Hey, maybe I'll do just that! ► RATEL ◄ 06:53, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How about helping expand these articles and thereby improve the 'pedia? You made significant contributions to DeSmogBlog which enabled it to get to Good Article level, which I really appreciate. So, why not help out the same way on these other blog articles, such as RealClimate, Watts Up With That, Climate Audit (coming soon), and Bishop Hill? Remember, we, as encyclopedia editors, don't make value judgements on the subjects we cover, we just report what the sources are saying. Cla68 (talk) 07:03, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by Stephan Schulz
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Cla68 is clearly off the rail. Having an opinion on the quality of a fringy editorial on a talk page is now POV-pushing? This is a personal attack? Only if you twist WP:AGF until it says the opposite. Between this spurious request and Cla's "oh, someone posted in what I think is the wrong section, let's go to ArbCom!", I'd think he needs to find some perspective. I'd suggest to offer him the option to withdraw this harassment quietly or be banned from CC probation enforcement for 4 weeks. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:11, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by William M. Connolley
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This request is mad. It starts off:

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it 1. votes in AfD to "Delete" Bishop Hill - yes, that's right. Cla really is asserting that a vote for deleting this NN blog is a violation of the probation. Cla is clearly pissed off that he got blocked for edit warring and wants to get someone beaten up in revenge, which is very bad faith William M. Connolley (talk) 07:33, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@ATren: And yes, I said it -- group! Cadre, cabal, group, whatever you want to call it, it's there - only in the imagination of the paranoid. You're descending down to Abd levels now. Climb back up before it is too late William M. Connolley (talk) 10:08, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There's more fun Cla stuff at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Possible BLP violation William M. Connolley (talk) 09:21, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Short Brigade Harvester Boris
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I am concerned that this is the second time Cla68 has recently tried the "shovel in a massive number of diffs and maybe some of them will be relevant" approach as he also did this in his statement on Lar's RfC. Granted that's not in the enforcement area, but it shows unexpected behavior from a prolific and highly regarded editor. It would be most unfortunate if Cla68 should continue along this path as he is one of our premier content contributors and one of Wikipedia's real assets. For his own sake as well as the project's I would like to encourage him to step back and gain some perspective. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 09:27, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by ATren
[edit]

Clearly, Cla68 presented that first diff (the vote to delete an article) as context for the following actions, all of occurred in relation to that article. So, ChrisO voted to delete; and then soon after the AFD was closed as keep, he blanked it to a redirect (for which he was blocked); and then when a completely unrelated editor came to the article, ChrisO made outlandish accusations of collusion. The list of edits are intended to present a sequence of behavior all relating to that one article.

Of course, the commentors above would rather ignore everything else and focus on that first diff in isolation, spinning this as a spurious report in which Cla is reporting ChrisO for simply voting delete. That's really ironic because in the Lar RFC Cla68 presented a long list of isolated offending diffs (most of which stood as abusive on their own) and was accused of pulling diffs out of context. So if he ignores context he's criticized, and if he provides it they accuse him of reporting a "delete" as a violation. There's no pleasing this group.

And yes, I said it -- group! Cadre, cabal, group, whatever you want to call it, it's there. If SlimVirgin can be accused of off-wiki collusion with a group which includes Lar and Cla68, then any accusation of group behavior is on the table. Jeez, not only do SV, Cla, Lar, Marknutley, me, etc, share virtually no shared editing history before getting involved in this conflict 6 months ago, but there is actually a long history of arbcom-level conflict between several of these purported colluders!

Furthermore, they want to talk about Cla filing a "revenge" request -- how about these allegations of collusion as a "revenge" tactic against those of us who have criticized the long-time CC editors? They've acting in tandem over a long period of time to squelch opposing views and intimidate newbies, and we've skirted around that issue because it's taboo to accuse long time contributors of such actions. But now that ChrisO has brought it to the surface with these revenge accusations, brazenly accusing long-time editors of collusion, I think it's time to openly talk about the real cabal here (hint: see the list of commentors above) ATren (talk) 09:55, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong venue. And wrong insinuations, but that's a different topic.--Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:00, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Comment by Thepm
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I had previously commented on this post at the talk page here. I was disappointed insofar as ChrisO's responses appeared to focus on MN's behaviour (which was not the subject there or here). The consensus of several other posters was probably best summed up by WMC, who said that I was "pushing this too hard," although he noted that "we're all agreed that the place for an RFC isn't an article talk page, so yes you have a point."

I let it go there, but the problem I have with ChrisO's post was not that it was in the wrong place, but that it was completely inappropriate. Referring to an editor's "pig-headed obstinacy" is just not civil. Calling for other editors to provide "diffs of particularly egregious conduct" is bullying. Whether or not ChrisO was entitled to complain about MN is not the point. It was the way he went about it.

I think that ChrisO is a valuable contributor to wikipedia generally and to the climate related articles particularly, but the battleground mentality has got to stop. Thepm (talk) 10:16, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. We will disagree, but we need to disagree without being disagreeable. Everyone involved here needs to do a better job of holding their temper and staying on point. (And yes, I include myself in "everyone".) Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 18:09, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Questions
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  • If I may interject, "looks bad, smells bad" - this was just after his accusation of collusion, and "smells bad" further implies suspicion. That's how I would interpret "smells bad", but if there is a more reasonable explanation I'd be open to hearing it. ATren (talk) 15:00, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You know what is a personal attack? calling good-faith edits, however mistaken they were or were not, vandalism. That's a personal attack. Hipocrite (talk) 15:10, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To be fair to Cla, he was squirming to get a block lifted and desperately searching for some reason why his edit warring was Good Edit Warring William M. Connolley (talk) 15:26, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
From Heyitspeter
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@Lar & 2/0: ChrisO was blocked for a spate of edit warring precisely one edit, not for the WP:AGF and WP:NPA violations mentioned here. I do not see how that block suffices to address the concerns raised.

@2/0: You are suggesting that we deal with this issue by copying some of the text from the Climate change probation page and pasting it here, once again, as you put it. That obviously isn't an effective way to deal with disruptive editing.--Heyitspeter (talk) 19:17, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You're wrong. ChrisO, and Cla, were both blocked for precisely one edit (well, ChrisO definitely for one, Cla maybe for two), which LHVU interpreted as edit warring. Your "a spate of edit warring" is twaddle incorrect, as you've subsequently admitted William M. Connolley (talk) 21:16, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, assuming you're right. That makes my point all the more forceful; I hadn't realized how little of the present request had been dealt with by that block.
I've refactored my comment appropriately. In return I request that you refactor yours to exclude the final sentence per WP:CIVIL.--Heyitspeter (talk) 21:57, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So, now the "spate of edit warring" has proved a mirage. Closer inspection shows that the "concerns raised", whilst not quite totally vapid, simply aren't enough to merit raising at this page. The block doesn't address those concerns because they don't need to be addressed William M. Connolley (talk) 22:07, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
More comments
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What everyone needs to remember is that in a contentious topic area, collaboration, cooperation, and compromise are necessary in order to make progress on building complete, balanced, neutral articles. Were ChrisO's edits helpful in achieving this? I think clearly they were not. It appears that an admin has decided to point this out to ChrisO. If this corrects the behavior, and I sincerely hope it does, then we can move forward and hopefully continue making some progress on building up and expanding Bishop Hill (blog) and related articles. I have invited several of the editors who have commented here to expand and improve the Watts Up With That article as was done with DeSmogBlog. I would like to invite them to do the same with Bishop Hill (blog). I look forward to helping them out with both articles. I appreciate the well-thought and reasoned comments by the admins below. Cla68 (talk) 22:49, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Expand Bishop Hill (blog) with what? It is already a coatrack. Each of the few peripheral mentions of the blog in the very few sources is used to coatrack Montford's views into the article. Your backing of this article appears to be classic POV pushing and now you are advocating expanding it here? Polargeo (talk) 00:09, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe editors should be more polite with you but you should not wikilawyer to get your way whilst ignoring policy designed to improve the quality of articles. Polargeo (talk) 00:12, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Polargeo, if you don't feel that the sources support Bishop Hill, will you instead commit to helping me improve RealClimate, Climate Audit, and Watts Up With That with the goal of getting all three to Good Article? Cla68 (talk) 03:59, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A great example for you to follow Cla. I don't see the article on the blog RealClimate being used to push its content and POV. Also there is no obvious place to merge RC. Polargeo (talk) 05:31, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oh and Climate Audit is a redirect to Stephen McIntyre#ClimateAudit.org. Just as this Bishop Hill (blog) should be a clear merge to Andrew Montford. Something I believe you have been blocked for trying to prevent. Polargeo (talk) 05:38, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As for Watts Up With That, feel free to improve it because it has some of the same issues Bishop hill has but it has much more significant RS coverage than Bishop Hill. Polargeo (talk) 05:46, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If your work on these articles and fighting for them by every method (including using enforcement to attempt to win content debates) is designed to "level the playing field" I feel you are very misguided. Polargeo (talk) 05:50, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
All I asked Polargeo, is if you would be willing and able to help improve and expand those three articles with the goal of getting them to Good Article. Do your four responses above constitute a "yes" or a "no?" Cla68 (talk) 09:52, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Further discussion on talkpage Polargeo (talk) 10:57, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"no further action needed"

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The caption to this collapse implies that action has been taken. Care to explain? I'd like this thread to be reopened if no one's opposed.--Heyitspeter (talk) 09:28, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning ChrisO

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  • I shall be recusing from this area, since I have been involved in endeavouring to directly admin the article, have previously indef protected (and lifted) the article, and have blocked ChrisO and Cla68 for unilaterally redirecting and reverting the redirect upon protection being lifted. Since some aspect of the above may involve my actions and decisions I feel I cannot comment as an uninvolved sysop. I shall, of course, respond to direct questions. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:01, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Had I been monitoring Bishop Hill (blog), I would have acted pretty much as LHvU has done. I see nothing else that needs to be resolved here, other than urging once again that everyone editing in this topic area up their game. There should be no insurmountable barrier to collaborating civilly and productively. When someone introduces a questionable source, introduce a better one; when someone comments more on the contributor than the content, focus on the content; when someone reverts you, explain your edit at the talkpage and engage in discussion; when you revert someone's edit, explain why and actively seek a source-based compromise. - 2/0 (cont.) 15:25, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'm inclined to agree with 2/0. I would also like to note that while LHvU has my support for recusing, if he feels he should, I personally feel that what he has done has been within admin, not editing, purview and no recusal is indicated. KillerChihuahua?!?Advice 15:30, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Those accusing Cla68 of having brought this here unnecessarily are off base. It's a valid thing to raise. If this had been brought here prior to the blocks imposed, I'd probably think a sanction for ChrisO was appropriate. But it's after the fact, the block was served out, done. An admonishment to "up your game" for ChrisO (and whoever else deemed necessary) is all I'd advocate, this time. Agree with KC that LHvU doesn't need to recuse, but bonus points for deciding to. ++Lar: t/c 16:29, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

PoV tag and Fred Singer

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94.136.50.63 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) by Hipocrite (talk · contribs)

Proxy blocked. Related issue in next thread. - 2/0 (cont.) 21:11, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not going to fill out the template because this is a minor matter. 94.136.50.63 has reverted two different people on Fred Singer - both attempts to add a PoV tag. There is a long and distinguished history in this area of adding content tags on the request of a minority of participants - in fact, even through full protection - while an issue is discussed (diffs on request). I would appreciate an uninvolved admin, or even an involved admin stating that I will not get in trouble for reverting more than once on the article, or just ruling that the PoV tag must be on the article while the dispute is discussed on the talk page. Thanks. Hipocrite (talk) 18:58, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I thought once a pov tag was up it was not to be removed until a consensus was reached in talk? If that is the case then how can you get in trouble for putting it back mark nutley (talk) 19:01, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That was my understanding as well, thanks. Hipocrite (talk) 19:05, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
William C. Connolley added the POV tag as soon as he found he couldn't get his own way today. Tags aren't meant to be used in this way, and WMC seems to be the only one who wants it. Hipocrite, as I understand it, does not particularly want it himself. SlimVirgin talk contribs 19:02, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
He started a discussion on talk. You refused to respond to that discussion - you still have not responded to it, actually, yet you are supporting the removal of a tag pointing to an unfinished discussion. I take no position on the underlying issue, but it does appear that you are fillibustering WMC. He has raised a PoV point - that you provide undue weight to something. You are obliged to respond, to allow him to have his preferred version, or at the very least allow him to tag your preferred version. You (and the disruptive, multiply blocked anonip who is the real problem here) are not permitted to not respond, revert attempts to add the tag or edit the article. Hipocrite (talk) 19:05, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's not true that I refused to discuss it, and I don't know why you'd say such a thing. There was a discussion on my talk page (started by WMC) and another on article talk, though I still don't understand his points; discussions with William tend to involve lots of snide remarks, so it can be hard to work out what the substantive issue is. And I have not reverted tag. I just don't think it's a correct use of it.
More broadly, I'm concerned that he is still allowed to edit this BLP. He was accused (rightly or wrongly) in an article in The National Post in 2008 of using the article to smear Singer, and he does indeed seem to want to make negative edits to it. Once an allegation like that is made in a serious newspaper, it's not in anyone's interests, WMC's included, to allow even the perception of something inappropriate with a BLP to continue. SlimVirgin talk contribs 19:16, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Slim, not to shoot myself in the foot here because I'm on the other side on all of the issues I'm thinking, but are you sure you want to play that card? I mean, if you want to play that card, we'll need to discuss how it applies to others editing this section. But, we don't need to, since I'm taking ownership of exactly one of WMCs edits - it was right, you were wrong, now discuss on the talk page with me. Hipocrite (talk) 19:19, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure what you mean about playing that card (more BATTLE language; sorry, can't deal with it). I care about the BLP policy, and I've several times as an admin over the years asked over-involved editors to step away, once it becomes clear that they have a real problem with a BLP, or where serious allegations are made of involvement, COI, or anything similar. Yet here I find WMC allowed to continue editing this BLP after a serious complaint was made in a serious newspaper about that editing. In his own interests as much as anything else, he should have taken that page off his watchlist at that point. SlimVirgin talk contribs 19:33, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Solomon article to which you refer is no more credible than The Register. I strongly suggest you stop walking down this path. Hipocrite (talk) 19:36, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to start looking at the diffs from this article and any related BLPs. If there are recent worrying edits I'll ask for further action. SlimVirgin talk contribs 19:52, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm completly on board with dealing with problem edits. I'm not comfortable with banning an editor from editing on something because a totally unreliable source has declared them to be something. Hipocrite (talk) 20:05, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
@SlimVirgin, you seem to be claiming that there is rule that a wikipedian cannot edit in a topic area if accusations about his or her editing in that topic have been published off-wiki. I do not believe that we have such a rule, and I believe that such a rule, if adopted, would harm the wiki. One reason why it would be harmful is that it would enable a wikipedian, who is in a dispute with another wikipedian, to topic - ban that other wikipedian just by publishing untruths about him or her off-wiki. I note that the original source of the accusations about WMC is a blog posting, containing several obviously false statements, by an individual who has disagreed with WMC on Wikipedia. Cardamon (talk) 21:50, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't say that, C; please read what I said. There's a difference between claims like that appearing on some website and in The National Post, one of Canada's two national newspapers. In any event, as I said, I'll look through the history. SlimVirgin talk contribs 21:57, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
One of the things that drew attention from the National Post had to do with Fred Singer and Martians. WMC and others (including Raul654) had edit-warred to prominently included loaded language on a minor issue from 1960s involving Singer theorizing on the existence of intelligent life on Mars. They insisted on adding that material to Singer's intro, even though it was unduly embarrassing to Singer because the belief in "Martians" has become somewhat of a pop-cultural joke in the 40 years since Singer expressed the view -- in 1960, such a view was far less embarrassing. Despite this, WMC warred to keep the Martian claim in the lead, and he explicitly admonished another editor who moved it out of the lead with an edit summary of "rv: if you're going to try to bury embarassing stuff, at least be honest enough to include an edit summary", which seems to speak to the motives of WMC in editing Singer's bio. Certainly, a brief 40-year-old speculation on alien life is not something we would include in the intro of a scientist's BLP unless we're trying to accentuate embarrassing facts, which WMC's edit comment confirms. So others may try to discredit Solomon and National Post, but on this particular issue they were correct. ATren (talk) 04:48, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That diff (and others near it) is very disturbing. However, it is also from 2008. Is there anything more recent that might warrant a ban from that article? In lieu of evidence that this is still a current problem, a ban would be unnecessarily punitive (rather than preventative). The WordsmithCommunicate 16:03, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Really, it was in a blog associated with The National Post. Cardamon (talk) 07:15, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, it was more than that, but in any case, do you agree with the point that this was intended to embarrass Singer? If so, why should it matter where it was reported? ATren (talk) 07:43, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I now see that I was talking about a different Solomon attack piece than the one you were talking about. Cardamon (talk) 17:05, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Can we have someone block the sock User:94.136.50.63 and semi the page please? William M. Connolley (talk) 20:16, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a sock, it's an open proxy. Hipocrite (talk) 20:20, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure I see the distinction. No matter, can someone close it please? William M. Connolley (talk) 20:35, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@SV: If you're having trouble spelling my name (and you are) just use WMC; it is much easier William M. Connolley (talk) 20:36, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

ATren

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ATren (talk · contribs) by Hipocrite (talk · contribs)

ATren admonished to adhere to high civility standards. No other action. ++Lar: t/c 15:38, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning ATren

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User requesting enforcement
Hipocrite (talk) 13:04, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
User against whom enforcement is requested
ATren (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Sanction or remedy that this user violated
Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

  1. [70] States that it is "intentionally condescending and insulting." It is a violation of WP:CIVIL to be "intentionally condescending and insulting." Edit summary states "condescending speech is all you're capable in a debate." It is not appropriate to denigrate the debating capabilities of ones intellectual opponents.
  2. User:ATren/WMCSpeak States that When [ATren percieves WMC as] insults and condescends, I will do the same. Users are not permitted to respond to incivility with incivility. An eye for an eye, in other words, leaves everyone blind.
Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

I contend that ATren is fully engaged in this sanctions page. I can dig out his pro-forma warning at some point if hoop-jumping is insisted on.

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
Him to stop being incivil on purpose, regardless of provication. If he can't avoid incivility, a topic ban on the area that he cannot avoid incivility on.
Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Like I said, an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind. Only one party has an announced intention to be incivil - this is worse than failing to be civil, it's intentionally failing. Not acceptable. Hipocrite (talk) 13:10, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
The requesting user is asked to notify the user against whom this request is directed of it, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise.

Discussion concerning ATren

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Statement by ATren

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Every comment I am making is a variation of something WMC has said in the past. He has been warned repeatedly, yet he continues to do it. Unless someone believes WMC is not in control of his actions, his incivility is no less intentional than mine. I am fully willing to remove all uncivil comments when WMC does the same, and I assert the right to respond to future incivility with the same level of incivility, as long as admins are not going to deal with this issue.

I'll also note that SlimVirgin (a true uninvolved editor who has done very good work cleaning up the mess that was Fred Singer's BLP) is considering withdrawing from editing here because of WMC's aggressiveness [71]. This has to stop. If nobody will stand up to WMC, then I will. Everyone worries about losing WMC, what about losing good editors like SlimVirgin? If WMC is chasing such experienced editors away, doesn't that severely impact the "net contribution" calculation for WMC?

I am going to work now, I will respond more later. ATren (talk) 13:16, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is it accurate to state that you think WMC should be restricted in some way for his possibly unintentional incivility? It is accurate to state that I think WMC should be should be restricted in some way for his possibly unintentional incivility. How can you justify being intentionally incivil when you think someone who may be unintentionally incivil should be restricted in some way? Hipocrite (talk) 13:19, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Do you really believe that after all this time WMC's incivility is unintentional? How can an explicit action like calling someone a troll be "unintentional"? And even if it is unintentional, then why is someone who cannot adhere to the basic standard of civil discourse still allowed to edit? BTW, this is my section for response; I'd appreciate if you would respond further down below. ATren (talk) 13:26, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I ignore all sectioning - always have, and always will. You do the same, so we're in good company. I am forced to WP:AGF about WMC's incivility and state that it is not stated as intentional, but is, regardless, disruptive. This is different than your incivility, which is both disruptive and intentional. In fact, while WMC needs to be stopped from disrupting the encyclopedia, you need to be stopped from intentionally disrupting the encyclopedia - one could argue in good faith that you are actually vandalizing (your incivility is not even possibly in good faith - you have stated that you are being incivil on purpose). You both need to stop, but, right now, you're the easier target by an order of magnitude based on your stated intention to disrupt. Hipocrite (talk) 13:32, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Unintentional disruption (if you must believe that) is still disruption. If WMC truly cannot control his actions and his actions are alienating good editors then it he should be sanctioned even if he is acting in good faith. The ban lists are littered with editors who had very good faith but were apparently incapable of controlling their behavior, but for some reason, WMC's disruption persists years later. So my response to you is, even if it's unintentional disruption, at some point it must be stopped. ATren (talk) 13:40, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You appear to be making an argument for a sanction request about WMC's incivility. Disruption should be stopped, not met with more disruption. You have stated that since WMC is disrupting via incivility, which I do not dispute you will do the same. Thus, you should be blocked, as you are intentionally disruptive - you, to draw a parallel, are Willy on Wheels after his second page move, while WMC is someone who constantly delinks dates. Both are sanctioned - one is banned. Hipocrite (talk) 13:43, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hipocrite, it's not being stopped, and good editors are being chased away. Someone has to step up and confront him. It's been going on for years and shows no sign of stopping. And, yes, others are banned for long term good faith incivility. Remember Child of Midnight? He was unquestionably good faith and he was banned because of his inability to maintain a level of decorum. Good faith has it's limits, and I submit that the limit is reached when other highly respected editors are chased away (SlimVirgin is just the latest).
As a side note, would you join me in filing a request for action against WMC's continuing disruption? You acknowledge above that WMC is uncivil, and that it's disruptive, so you should be supporting action which minimizes disruption. Would you do that? ATren (talk) 13:52, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
NOT "an eye for an eye"
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I would like to point out that this is explicitly not an eye for an eye. I am engaging WMC on his own terms in an attempt to communicate with him. It's obvious from his edit history that he considers such dialog to be fine, and in fact I suspect that he even has a greater level of respect for people who engage in that kind of discourse. It's not something that comes naturally to me (hence the disclaimers I posted) but if that level of speech is necessary to communicate with WMC, then I'm willing to do it. Or, at least, I'm willing to try it if that's what he'll respond to. In the thread in question, WMC asserts a negative based on lack of information, something that is obviously logically wrong. He has a history of ruthlessness with editors who make such similar logic errors, and I honestly believe he would demand the same of those dealing with his obvious errors. So where he might dismiss a polite note about his error, a more direct, aggressive approach might be what it takes for him to recognize it.

It's not an eye for an eye, it's trying to engage an editor who thus far refuses to engage with those who disagree with him civilly. ATren (talk) 14:04, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by others about the request concerning ATren

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Apply the same equitable relief that WMC would receive for incivility, close and dismiss this. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 13:23, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I will have a proposed resolution in the uninvolved admins section shortly but for now I merely want to comment... I understand ATren's frustration with WMC's approach. Many folk are frustrated. But Hip is right. An eye for an eye is not acceptable. We should try to stay above WMC's unacceptably caustic commentary, regardless of whether it is appropriately handled or not. So my proposed close is going to be an admonishment to ATren that they can collect diffs if they like, they can even compile a chart of WMC-to-polite speak but they cannot themselves engage in caustic commentary, even if WMC routinely gets away with it, because that's how it is... the playing field isn't level and they are going to be held to a higher standard than WMC and they will just have to learn to deal. ++Lar: t/c 13:26, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(e.c.) Lar, with all due respect, been there done that. It's still happening. And now we have a case where an unquestionably good editor is being chased by his behavior. I will strongly object to any admonishment for my handful of uncivil comments if this board refuses to deal with the constant incivility by WMC. WMC is well into double digit requests for incivility, personal attacks, and BLP violations. Highly respectable previously uninvolved editors such as SlimVirgin and Cla68 are included in those requesting enforcement. Yet this group of admins still refuses to act. So how about this: sanction WMC and me equally - give us both the exact same topic ban. I will accept it without complaint as long as it's handed out equally, even though our respective level of transgression differs by an order of magnitude. If that's what it takes, I'm willing to take a larger sanction if it also means that admins finally act to sanction a long term problem editor. ATren (talk) 13:36, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It is not a higher standard to demand that users not be intentionally incivil, but assume that other incivil users are just bad at being civil. It is, in fact, a constant standard. I have brought every user who has stated they are intentionally disrupting the encyclopedia to this enforcement board. Hipocrite (talk) 13:33, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I see the intention is to correct WMC where this Probation process has failed. The Probation can be a disruption too. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 13:36, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This illustrates the problems that WTC is causing. He regularly insults editors and sources; it's actually reaching the point where more of his posts contain insults than don't. Today he called ATren a troll and the New York Times rubbish; yesterday he called me a liar. In addition he seems to have no working knowledge of the content policies. It's impossible to work with. I've decided to continue working on the Singer article in my userspace until it's dealt with, mostly to keep myself safe because the article's under probation. Anyone choosing to interact with WMC is going to have a hard time. If you don't respond, he accuses you of ignoring him. If you do respond, you risk getting drawn into the kind of exchange that will land you here. SlimVirgin talk contribs 13:34, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I see the basic problem is that he's an old-style Wikipedian, one more interested in content than in politics and game-playing. He needs to adjust to the new reality. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 13:38, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Except he's wrong on the content too. He's dismissing a New York Times reference based on Google hits. He has a history of adding blogs to BLPs. He's edit warred with an arbcom member on a BLP, repeatedly adding an out-of-context factoid to a BLP intro, an edit which I challenge anyone to assert was within miles of being good content. It's all fundamentally against policy and when people disagree with him he attacks. ATren (talk) 13:46, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you have a problem with another editor being incivil, please raise an enforcement request, which, if it's actually about civility and not content, I'll gladly support. Or raise an enforcement request about content, but narrowly tailor it to content that in unarguably poor, as opposed to just stuff you disagree with. You are taking this one off-topic. Other editors being incivil does not make incivility acceptable. Hipocrite (talk) 13:37, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And, lets be perfectly clear - while I would never call ATren a troll, an editor who pledges to be incivil, is, in fact, trolling. Hipocrite (talk) 13:39, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
He called me that before any of my recent comments. ATren (talk) 13:46, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by Thparkth
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  • Atren, this is a bad road to go down. No matter how provoked you feel, you are ultimately responsible for your own actions. If those actions include deliberate incivility, you are likely be judged negatively for that. I think everyone here understands how frustrated you feel, but Hipocrite is correct when he talks about "an eye for an eye" making everyone blind. If you made a voluntary commitment to remain civil in your interaction with WMC, I'm pretty sure everyone would respect that and that would be the end of the matter. Don't martyr yourself over this. You are too valuable an editor, and this is too trivial an issue. Thparkth (talk) 13:46, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Just so. I cannot conceive of how I could possibly agree more strongly with this than I already do. Hence my proposed close. But I'm willing to toughen it all the way to a warning that blocks will be forthcoming if this course continues. Because it just isn't the right road. ++Lar: t/c 13:53, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Lar, if I file another enforcement request for WMC, who is already on civility patrol, will he get a significant sanction? There are plenty of incivil diffs since his last admonishment. If I am going to be threatened a block for a few minor edits (none of which are worse than anything WMC has said repeatedly) how could that be justified in light of WMC's continued incivility, which is driving away good editors? ATren (talk) 14:19, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You are doing it on purpose. Hipocrite (talk) 14:52, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, in an attempt to engage with an editor for whom that kind of discourse is accepted (since he does it himself). I honestly believe he doesn't listen unless you engage him in the same manor in which he engages you -- in other words, the same impulse that causes him to make aggressive comments without him knowing it, causes him to ignore civil comments from others. I really believe he dismisses civility as weakness of argument, and my attempts to engage in a more aggressive manor are an attempt to break through that dismissal. If you are going to assume good faith in his incivility, then at least extend the same courtesy to me. ATren (talk) 15:00, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You're wrong. And obviously so, becuase it is trivial to find counterexamples. This is pure Assume Bad Faith on your part William M. Connolley (talk) 15:02, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, then please present those examples here, and please be sure to include examples of civil engagement with those who are disagreeing with you. I will then present examples of incivility with disagreers, and we can compare. OK? ATren (talk) 15:08, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please stop trying to derail this enforcement request. This is about your intentional incivility, which is inexcusable. Finding other incivil people is the subject of a different request. This standard delaying tactic is why the admins here are failing - the first one that saw those diffs should have closed this section with an only-final warning to you that if you are intentionally incivil again you will be banned from this topic area for increasing lengths. How hard is this to do? Hipocrite (talk) 15:11, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You do have a point. This is a small one. I'll try to scare up another uninvolved admin to endorse my proposed close. ATren, do consider starting another request. I know you are frustrated. I know that you will have to do a lot of work. But do consider it instead of acting out. ++Lar: t/c 15:25, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It was not intended as "acting out", it was a good faith attempt to engage an editor for whom incivility is part of his habitual discourse. It was an attempt to discover if he'd respond better to a more direct and aggressive tone, because 2 years of civility has not reached him. I can't help it if it's perceived as something different, but I am somewhat disappointed at the lack of good faith assumed of me -- WMC's incivility is somehow excused as "unintentional" even though it's been happening for years, while my attempt to deal with it in a different way is met with assumptions of nefarious intent. I will take your advice though, to put this aside and gather that request. ATren (talk) 15:34, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You are directed not to be intentionally incivil for any reason.Hipocrite (talk) 15:36, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
ATren, if you want to file an enforcement request, you can. But please, if you want to even have a 20% chance of success, make sure your own behaviour is impeccable first, and bring us, oh, 100 or so diffs, all of which are incontrovertible. If even one is even a bit questionable, where some reasonable doubt might exist, we will have no choice but to find against you and f0r WMC. Sorry, but that's how the playing field is here. Level. ++Lar: t/c 15:02, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Lar, I've done that. It goes nowhere (see a few months back when 2/0 passionately defended WMC after a request with 20-odd very compelling diffs). And good editors continue to get bullied off. It has to stop, and this RFE is ineffective. Now, I will probably take your advice and disengage again to go back into research mode, but seriously, how much evidence is needed? Do we have to take this all the way to arbcom for any reasonable handling of this problem editor to occur? ATren (talk) 15:14, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I know you have tried. Keep trying. ++Lar: t/c 15:25, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by WMC
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I see a lot of "apply the same to ATren as to WMC" here. Even ATren has asked for that. Fine; I'm on a civility sanction, no? How about we apply that to ATren, too?

Also User:ATren/WMCSpeak should be deleted as an attack page. Ideally ATren himself would realise this and ask for it to be deleted William M. Connolley (talk) 13:50, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you are on a civility sanction then perhaps you should not be calling other editors "Trolls" and "liars"? mark nutley (talk) 13:53, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That is a good point. WMC, what is your response to that? An unsatisfactory response would cause me to be very cross. So cross that I might actually admonish you not to give unsatisfactory responses. Or worse. ++Lar: t/c 14:17, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My response is that I was responding to a post in which ATren actively and deliberately set out to insult me William M. Connolley (talk) 15:00, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, you called me a troll before any of this stuff today. Try again. ATren (talk) 15:02, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Which you actually were[72] (you know: Trolling) - WMC called you on it per WP:SPADE. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 16:05, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps it was a response in advance? If WMC can divine your intent accurately ("actively and deliberately set out to"...), perhaps he can divine it before you actually post? Please assume good faith here about WMC. ++Lar: t/c 15:05, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As ATren had just made a comment that very much could be defined as trolling - he didn't call it "in advance" - he called it the spade he saw. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 16:05, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Lar, given your tone, I suggest you remove your comment from the section which you believe is for uninvolved admins only. You are giving the appearance of a lack of impartiality, and per your own belief, editing that section is a use of admin tools. Hipocrite (talk) 15:06, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Eh? Do you think I should recuse because I am prejudiced against ATren and in favor of WMC? Is that the suggestion? I think my proposed close is a good one. ++Lar: t/c 15:10, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So grow a pair buck up and close this as opposed to snarkingusing mild sarcasm all over. Inform ATren that intentional incivility is inexcusable, and if it continues, he will be topic banned from the area for increasing lengths of time, and then delete his attack page. How hard is this admin 101 shit?If you'd like, I'll happily tell you exactly what actions to take on all the other cases in front of this sanction board, with reasonable confidence that I'd get them all right. Hipocrite (talk) 15:12, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hipocrite, let me ask you: is this intentional incivility or unintentional incivility? We all know how important the distinction is. ATren (talk) 15:15, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Intentional incivility is always inexcusable - it is a bad faith action. Unintentional incivility is problematic if consistant. However, you are not intentionally incivil, by admission. Here, I'll give the admins a hint suggestion - "ATren is informed that intentional incivility is always unacceptable. If ATren is intentionally incivil, he may banned from the entire climate change topic, broadly construed, by any admin for up to one week. After two such blocks, the period will increase to one month. After five such blocks, the period will increase to one year. After one year without a topic ban, this sanction will expire." Hipocrite (talk) 15:21, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And I'm asking you, Hipocrite, is "grow a pair" and "how hard is this admin 101 shit?" intentional incivility or unintentional incivility? Since the distinction is suddenly important, I think you should either state that it was intentional or strike it. ATren (talk) 15:28, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You are right. I'll rewrite those. See how easy that was - someone who wasn't the target of my words told me they were wrong and I undid them. Hipocrite (talk) 15:35, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Might I then ask why you did not extend the same courtesy to me? You could have engaged me on my talk rather than running to mommy. ATren (talk) 15:40, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
H: Snarking? Grow a pair? I think your tone is not helpful. I proposed a close, below. If some other uninvolved admin agrees with it, great. But I have not in the past uninlaterally closed things. Proposing is as far as I go by myself. I suppose I could revisit that decision, though. Is that what you're advocating? ++Lar: t/c 15:17, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And I think your lack of a pair unwillingness to not take deliberate action when it's obvious what action is right is not helpful. You are apparently unwilling to actually do something, so what's the point of you being here? You're not adminning in the area - you're using magic discussion powers in the magic "no-plebians" section. You're using your admin powers as a supervote, which you don't have. It's such a patently obvious close that your unwillingness to just do it is an embarassment. Hipocrite (talk) 15:23, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You can't have it both ways. You cannot promote an RfC that is trying to remove me entirely (for the crime of having an opinion) and at the same time castigate me for not taking action (instead of just voicing my opinion about what the correct action is). You want this closed now? OK. I'll close it now, as I suggested it be closed, without further consultation. Let's see how that works. ++Lar: t/c 15:30, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning ATren

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This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators and is not to be used to conduct discusson or debate. Comments by non-admins, and any discussion or debate by other than uninvolved admins, will be moved to the section above.
  • Proposed close: ATren is admonished to adhere to the high standards of civility we expect of all contributors, regardless of whether these standards are actually enforced against others or not. The misbehavior of others is not justification for one's own misbehavior. Regardless of how egregious that misbehavior of others might be. No other action taken. ++Lar: t/c 13:40, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
enacted. ++Lar: t/c 15:38, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Post result discussion

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(moved from Lar's note "enacted" )

Undone. That was indecent haste. Please allow other admins to comment William M. Connolley (talk) 16:04, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I apologize, but you are not permitted to undo a close. Closes can be appealed at WP:ANI. If you would like to appeal, do so, but be aware that I'll certainly be opposing such. Hipocrite (talk) 16:09, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You are both out of line. Only uninvolved admins can close, and only uninvolved admins can un-close. Further, WMC's comment was in the uninvolved admin section, and he is neither uninvolved nor an admin. 50 lashes with a wet noodle to the both of you for edit warring and general mopery and dopery of the spaceways. THAT said, if some other uninvolved admin wants to reopen I have no objection. ++Lar: t/c 16:21, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Lar, my edit was not out of line at all. Please explain, now, or I will have to seek redress. Hipocrite (talk) 16:35, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
WMC was out of line to un-close, not being an uninvolved admin. You were out of line (although arguably less so, under IAR undoing a wrong action) to re-close, not being an uninvolved admin. ++Lar: t/c 16:57, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(moved from Lar's "you can't have it both ways" remark to H)

How about sticking to the case at hand Lar? Otherwise we may think that you bear a grudge for the RfC, and thus really are involved, despite your statements to the opposite. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 16:07, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Pointing out a logical inconsistency isn't "bear(ing) a grudge". Which I suspect you know already. That inconsistency *is* relevant since it was a response to H. ++Lar: t/c 16:30, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is no logical "inconsistency" to see - other than that you creating a red herring by hasty generalization. The RfC is not relevant here. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 16:41, 18 May 2010 (UTC) [let me be more specific: Until/unless the RfC spawns a result - you are still what you are - so pleading how someone is commenting on the RfC is a fallacy] --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 16:46, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that it is a hasty generalization. Much less a red herring. If you don't see the inconsistency in "I want you not to act in this area at all, but I insist you take this specific action in this area" I can't help you.++Lar: t/c 16:57, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How about this - "I don't want you to act in this area at all, but if you're going to do it, at least do it right?" Hipocrite (talk) 16:58, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The inconsistency that you think is there, isn't. Let me make a rather apt analogy: While i (or anyone else) may oppose a specific president/prime minister, and want him to be deposed, that i can still want the pres/pm. to act within his office - in fact i rather expect that he must. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 17:18, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

marknutley

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marknutley (talk · contribs) by Hipocrite (talk · contribs)

Marknutley is prohibited from introducing a new source to any biography of a living person or any climate change article without first clearing the source with another long-term contributor in good standing. Cenarium (talk) 20:43, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.


Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning marknutley

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User requesting enforcement
Hipocrite (talk) 17:21, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
User against whom enforcement is requested
marknutley (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Sanction or remedy that this user violated
Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

  1. [73] Adds ref to "www.theregister.co.uk," adds ref to "rogerpielkejr.blogspot.com"
  2. [74] Adds ref to "climateaudit.org"
Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Per Wikipedia:General_sanctions/Climate_change_probation/Requests_for_enforcement/Archive7#William_M._Connolley_.28and_Marknutley.29 "Marknutley is prohibited from introducing a new source, with some exceptions such as articles published in peer-reviewed journals, books published by a well-regarded academic press, or newspaper articles published in the mainstream media, to any biography of a living person or any climate change article without first clearing the source with another long-term contributor in good standing."

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
Indefinite, wiki-wide ban on adding any new sources to articles. Marknutley is permitted to suggest sources on talk pages, and edit articles to conform to already existing sources.
Additional comments by editor filing complaint

He was prohibited from doing the behavior, yet he did the behavior. When confronted about the behavior, he stated "The register is a main stream newspaper is`nt it? And Pileke is reliable per wp:prof so i figured that would be ok to use". The Register is a website, and blogs that are reliable are not one of the exemptions presented. If Marknutley cannot abide by a narrowly construed prohibition, the prohibition must be more broadly construed.

As demonstrated by his response, he doesn't get it. He's prohibited from doing X - regardless of if X is acceptable under other policies or guidlines. He does X. This is not acceptable behavior. Hipocrite (talk) 18:17, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
[75]

Discussion concerning marknutley

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Statement by marknutley

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Andrew Orlowski writing in The Register is reliable if attributed, which is what i did [76]. Same for Roger A. Pielke, Jr. who passes wp:prof and again the same for Steve McIntyre who strangly hipocrite has left in. There is nothing wrong with what i did here all the sorces are fine and attributed correctly mark nutley (talk) 18:11, 19 May 2010 (UTC) Further, yes i made a mistake in saying wp:prof It is wp:sps i should have quoted. It says, Self-published material may in some circumstances be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications That covers both Pielke and McIntyre. Orlowski and the register is used as a ref in loads of articles, which is why i correctly assume it is ok to use if Attributed, which it was. mark nutley (talk) 18:34, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Also, i would like to say, i would have self reverted if given the chance, kim posted on my talk page and i asked him to clarify, within half an hour (i was having dinner) Hipocrite had reverted the content and filed this RFE. I have seen the register used as a source in plenty of articles and assume it is ok to use, the same with academics who are ok to use as wp:sps. If i have broken my sanction it was unintentional and i will ensure that i will double check anything not from a part of the MSM with other editors. I also apologize for once again wasting everyones time mark nutley (talk) 19:02, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by others about the request concerning marknutley

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Statement by ScottyBerg

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I've had a few minor interactions with Mark and found him generally to be a pleasant chap. But his handling of this has been discouraging. This is not rocket science. On the talk page he cited WP:PROF, which is not the correct policy. When I pointed that out to him, he questioned my motives. Now I see that he is not supposed to be introducing new sources even if perfectly valid except under limited circumstances. I'm afraid the relief requested by Hipocrite seems warranted. ScottyBerg (talk) 18:28, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Your correct it was wp:sps i should have cited, i did not question your motives btw i said debate with you was pointless as you want the article deleted regardless of how notable it is, sorry if you think i was impugning you mark nutley (talk) 18:35, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments like that aren't at all helpful, Mark. ScottyBerg (talk) 19:45, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by NuclearWarfare about The Wordsmith's proposed closure

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When I first proposed the existing sanction, the reason I limited it to biographies of living persons and CC articles was not because I felt applying it to all pages would be too far-reaching. I did not believe that administrators under the current site culture have the ability to implement such a sanction (especially because WP:DSN never attained consensus). To work around that, I applied two existing sanctions, the climate change probation and WP:BLPSE, to ensure that as great a proportion of MN's edits as possible were covered under my action. That said, I think that your sanction extension is a good idea, and should be enacted. NW (Talk) 19:56, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning marknutley

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This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators and is not to be used by others to conduct discusson or debate. Comments by non-admins, and any discussion or debate by other than uninvolved administrators, will be moved to the section above. Adminstrators engaged in extended discussion or debate, especially if not directly related to the proposed outcome, should strongly consider using the above sections.
There is disagreement as to the acceptability of any threaded discussions in this section. Please see Template_talk:Climate_Sanction_enforcement_request before engaging in any threaded discussions.
  • This seems fairly clear-cut. However, I think Hipocrite's requested sanction may be a bit too far-reaching if it applies to all articles. Therefore I propose the following resolution:
  • Endorse. I don't think Mark is doing it on purpose but I do think he doesn't quite get the distinction. This restriction could be lifted if he posts a solid track record of approvals showing he does get it (with some practice and guidance). ++Lar: t/c 02:35, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I call for a close. Several uninvolved admins in favor and no dissenting views. ++Lar: t/c 20:35, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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