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2024 November

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Carousel (film) (talk|edit|history|logs|links|archive|watch) (RM) (Discussion with closer)

This was closed as not moved, without any actual consensus to not move. The opposing side was asking for consensus to make an exception to the guideline, and while that kind of consensus can sometimes be found if the numbers are lopsided enough, it can't be created out of nothing in an evenly-matched discusssion. * Pppery * it has begun... 16:21, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Perspiration

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Perspiration (talk|edit|history|logs|links|archive|watch) (RM) (Discussion with closer)

When including all comments from the initial discussion, regardless of whether they were directly about the proposal, the vote was evenly split at 50/50 (4:4). The closing message was 'no consensus', which is accurate based on the numbers alone. However, since WP:RMCI requires evaluating arguments as well as numbers, I will briefly summarize these: opposers preferred 'perspiration', feeling it sounded more encyclopedic (WP:TONE) and less ambiguous than 'sweat', referring to both the fluid and the process, thereby avoiding confusion about the article's focus. Supporters, on the other hand, emphasized the statistical prevalence of 'sweat' over 'perspiration' (WP:COMMONNAME, WP:MEDTITLE), refuted the claim that 'sweat' describes a different phenomenon than 'perspiration' when referring to the fluid, and advocated for a clear focus on either the fluid or the process. Overall, this decision appears to contrast factual arguments (statistics) with personal preferences. –Tobias (talk) 13:00, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(Closer comment): while !votes with rationales like seems more encyclopedic are not especially helpful, there was a key argument on the "oppose" side that lead me to mark it "no consensus". (That said, WP:TONE plays some role and should not be entirely discarded. A formal tone is important.) Basically, the argument put forward by WhatamIdoing: Also, it's not clear to me whether this article ought to be about "the fluid" or about "the process of excreting the fluid". "Perspiration" works for both, but with the proposed name, it would have to be either sweat (the wet stuff itself, as a collection of water and some other chemicals) or sweating (the process of making the wet stuff; Diaphoresis). As this article currently covers both (and that seems fine to me), then having a name that covers both in the same grammatical form seems convenient. This argument is just as valid and as strong as the COMMONNAME-based one; we shouldn't be swayed into thinking that numbers-based rationales are somehow more worthy or more powerful. (I would also like to note: I did not make the close based on the numbers alone.) Sweat is a bit too ambiguous a term, and does not cover the entirety of the article subject. Therefore I think the arguments are equally matched. (Remember I don't have to defend the ambiguity argument as better than the other one, and I don't think it is. I just have to show it has equal weight). I would not characterize that argument as a personal preference.
If this response is unsatisfactory, I'm happy to elaborate further on why I think my close is appropriate. Cremastra (u — c) 13:31, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist. This discussion wasn't that well attended and since its especially controversial (otherwise we wouldn't be here), it could use more input from the community.VR (Please ping on reply) 18:16, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse (uninvolved): WP:TONE / WP:SLANG is a legitimate reason to oppose this proposed move, and that is basically what people mean by saying the current title "seems more encyclopedic". "Sweating" was also mentioned as a possibility, which also seems like a good candidate, but didn't gain clear traction. The RM was relisted and was open for more than two weeks. No consensus was evident, so the RM was closed as "no consensus", which seems fine. Less formal terminology is often avoided in Wikipedia article titles (Defecation, Feces, Urine, Sexual intercourse, etc.). —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 13:00, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse there was no consensus in that discussion. There are functionally two different, potentially correct arguments with about equal support. In fact, I will even go further and say that I do not think the argument that sweat was the COMMONNAME was clearly made (I wouldn't think a simple ngrams shows anything useful since it's not limited to medical topics.) SportingFlyer T·C 17:57, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. There's no tone or slang problem. There was no consensus around the issue of whether an article whose main subject is sweating, while also discussing sweat as the result of sweating, should be named "Sweat"; it was said that perspiration means both sweat and sweating, while sweat does not mean sweating and is therefore not the name for sweating for it to even qualify as the single most common obvious name for sweating.—Alalch E. 12:17, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse - There was no consensus, and it was closed as No Consensus. Move Review is not Requested Move round 2. Relist would have been valid, but closure as No Consensus was also valid. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:25, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. That was a “no consensus” heavily leaning to “rough consensus to not move”. The nomination was weak and two support arguments were weak, as in not engaging with actual evidence, while the oppose arguments had more substance. No consensus is a good close because overall it was a superficial discussion in an unimportant move. A future fresh nomination should be expected to have more rationale. SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:55, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Israel–Hamas war

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Israel–Hamas war (talk|edit|history|logs|links|archive|watch) (RM) (Discussion with closer)
See also other post-move discussions here, here, here and here.

There was a broad consensus for a move of the title away from Hamas and towards Gaza based on increasing and converging use of Gaza by RS. While initially a move to Israel-Gaza war found mixed support, I proposed a compromise for a move to Gaza War, which found great support among editors as a middle ground solution. Despite this the move was closed as no consensus, and there were attempts by several editors to discuss a rereview with the closing editor, to which they did not agree with. To add to that, three editors who had voted against were found to be sockpuppets. This really needs a rereview to accurately reflect the established consensus. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:44, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Endorse (involved). Most editors didn’t participate in the alternative proposal, and their silence cannot be interpreted as endorsement of it. This is particularly the case because Gaza War has previously been considered and rejected. BilledMammal (talk) 13:27, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    No one has claimed that their silence was an endorsement. As for the prior consensus argument, it is irrelevant given the passage of time and new sources. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:39, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • There were two proposals. Here is a tally of the !vote count of each one:
"Support" "Oppose" Support % Note
Move "Israel–Hamas war" to "Israel–Gaza war" 50
List
GeoffreyA,kashmīrī,Ïvana,Unbandito,Jebiguess,Mast303,Charles Essie,Scuba,Urro,إيان,HadesTTW,CoolAndUniqueUsername,Genabab,Haskko,nableezy,Stephan rostie,Yeoutie,Selfstudier,Jeppiz,JOEBRO64,BarrelProof,Levivich,Pachu Kannan,Makeandtoss,Iskandar323,Ainty Painty,20WattSphere,Josethewikier,Clayoquot,Aszx5000,RealKnockout,Black roses124,Kire1975,ByVarying,Est. 2021,Wellington Bay,WillowCity,Chicdat,Abo Yemen,C&C,Gödel2200,Benpiano800,EmilePersaud,Hydrangeans,Snowstormfigorion,Havradim,TyphoonAmpil,Albert Mond,VR,DFlhb
 37
List
BilledMammal,PaPiker,UnspokenPassion,Longhornsg,Kowal2701,Drocj,웬디러비,The Mountain of Eden,InvadingInvader,Jdcomix,Figureofnine,Hogo-2020,DecafPotato,Nashhinton,MaskedSinger,IanMacM,The Weather Event Writer,JohnAdams1800,xDanielx,Excel23,IntrepidContributor,FortunateSons,Alaexis,Kalpesh Manna 2002,Eladkarmel,InfiniteNexus,Clear Looking Glass,photogenic scientist,LuxembourgLover,Benjitheijneb,Swordman97,Drsruli,Awesome Aasim,IJA,Some1,Katangais,Yovt
 57% All of the "Support" !votes in this section supported moving away from "Israel–Hamas war", with many supporting a move to Gaza war instead.
Move "Israel–Hamas war" to "Gaza war" 37
List
Stephan rostie,Black roses124,GeoffreyA,Pachu Kannan,Chicdat,Clayoquot,Gödel2200,Selfstudier,Levivich,CNC,Hydrangeans,JOEBRO64,Ïvana,Jeaucques Quœure,GnocchiFan,Shadowwarrior8,JasonMacker,Lewisguile,نعم البدل,Vanilla Wizard,WikiFouf,Bluethricecreamman,Raskolnikov.Rev,Chuckstablers,Jotamide,20WattSphere,HadesTTW,pma,CoolAndUniqueUsername,Smallangryplanet,Kingofthedead,Braganza,PadFoot,Nojus R,VR,SP00KY,Parham wiki
 10
List
XavierGreen,Mast303,modern_primat,Alaexis,Mag1cal,Drsruli ,Coretheapple,MaGioZal,Andre,Yovt
 79% Most supporters in this section were ok with both dates and without dates, while some had a strong preference to omit dates. One[1] of those who opposed this title, also opposed Israel-Hamas war (in favor of Israel-Gaza war).

Note some users !voted in both sections but most only !voted in one section.VR (Please ping on reply) 17:48, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Endorse - Discussions of this size and time length are often incredibly hard to judge and more often than not both sides have equally strong policy arguments, even if one has more !votes behind it. In most cases, no consensus is the only possible and responsible close. I'd agree with the closer, give it a few more months (or less, as always if something changes more clearly), and maybe propose Gaza war or some variation of it next time around, but I don't see how a close in favor of any particular opinion could've been anything but a WP:SUPERVOTE.estar8806 (talk) ★ 20:25, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move to Gaza war I thought there was clear consensus for a move to that title at this time, and this is how I would have closed the discussion. A no consensus close is easier because it's a contentious topic but I'm not sure it's correct here given there's a clear numerical advantage to move. Given the nature of the discussion, this may necessitate another immediate move discussion, and I think that's fine. SportingFlyer T·C 20:29, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse IMHO, the closer made the right call by closing the RM as 'no consensus' on moving Israel–Hamas war to Israel–Gaza war. The 'Common ground' section raised additional questions, but I doubt most editors who participated in the main RM bothered to scroll down far enough to see it (or took the time to engage with that part). As the closer suggested, editors should give it a few months and then open a new RM. This time, they can ask whether Israel–Hamas war should be moved to Gaza war [with or without dates] and see if the consensus is clearer without the other options getting in the way. Some1 (talk) 01:51, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Given the common ground section, why not support a relist? It would be time consuming and unnecessary to start this process all over again in a few months. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:41, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse (uninvolved) - If I had participated, I might not have noticed the Common Ground containing an alternate proposal. The option of Gaza War was not obvious. What is obvious was the choice between Israel-Hamas War and Israel-Gaza War, and that was no consensus and closed as No Consensus. A separate RM should be started to rename the article Gaza War, which will probably pass. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:30, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse (involved) Once again a split between editors as to whether it ought to be Gaza war or Israel Gaza war, in the face of which the closer is stuck with a no consensus.Selfstudier (talk) 10:01, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse (involved) - this requested move discussion should have followed, not ignored, a procedural requested move of Gaza War (which is a disambiguation page). The claim that …many supporting a move to Gaza war instead is questionable, with several editors basing their argument solely through Yes, which are not valid arguments.
𝚈𝚘𝚟𝚝 (𝚝𝚊𝚕𝚔𝚟𝚝) 21:40, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Mast303
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