Wikipedia:Peer review/Clara Schumann/archive1

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Clara Schumann[edit]


I've listed this article for peer review because…

... Clara Schumann's bicentenary promped us to expand and improve her article, which is the fruit of many users' efforts, recently Chuckstreet and Jmar67, and received a detailed and helpful GA review by Reaper Eternal. She was a great woman, who made a living for her family of a famous husband (who died early) and eight children, by concert tours through Europe with famous colleagues, as one of the perhaps 5 best pianists of her time, also composing and later teaching, + romance and romantic music. This peer review is meant to find out if "she" may be worthy of FA quality. Thank you for participating, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:13, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Comments from SusunW[edit]

  • Youth: "Irreconcilable differences…" is a really long and complex sentence. Maybe it would be better with something along the lines of "Irreconcilable differences between Clara's parents led to their divorce in 1825. (source says 22 January 1825, not 1824) The marital problems were in part due to Friedrich's unyielding nature, but were accelerated by an affair between his friend, Adolph Bargiel, and Marianne. Seven months after the divorce was finalized the lovers married."
    Split the sentence (before reading your suggestion), please check. - To make thigs more complicated, Clara was with her mother for a short time, but when she was five legal custody fell to her father. (Imagine how different music history would have ben if not.) Feel free to reword yourself, btw. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:16, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
    That's much better. Thanks! SusunW (talk) 14:25, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Child prodigy: same with sentence "She had started receiving basic piano..." Suggest a period after four; delete but; capitalize After; period after father; replace which with These; and insert "she", i.e. "then she had to practice".
    Done. Really, such minor things which don't change the meaning: just do them. Probably easier than explaining ;) --GA
    Thanks. Did not know that was "allowable" :) but it's fine now. SusunW (talk) 14:25, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
    Citations should be in numerical order, i.e. 2nd paragraph shows 9 then 6. Please correct throughout the article.
    done --GA
    Who is Niccolò Paganini and why is it significant that he wanted to appear with her?
    Probably the best-known violinist ever. Paganini is a synonym for devilish virtuosity. If that gets explained, it probably needs its own ref, no? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:29, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
    Yes, the reader needs to know who he is and that needs a ref. SusunW (talk) 14:25, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
    Compare this in a FA: Frédéric Chopin#Travel and domestic success, - he is mentioned as violinist, without extra ref. - If ref, calling again for Chuckstreet. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:17, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
    His name is a wikilink: that's the ref. You don't need anything else. Chuckstreet (talk) 17:44, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
    Not quite true, - in a FA, you want the prose to be understandable without side clicks, so I added "violinist". It would be nice if a source said so, and could imagine that one of those we have already does that. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:01, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Vienna: Seems odd to have so many references to her as Clara Wieck or Clara. We do not know her, thus use of her first name is oddly, overly familiar. While this essay cautions against first names, the MOS also says after the first identification use only the surname. Throughout the article she should be referred to by surname, either Wieck or Schumann as appropriate. I would also suggest that after insuring that each lede sentence in a paragraph uses her surname, alternate between her surname and she or her. The repetition of her surname becomes distracting for the reader. (I find myself looking for the next instance of Wieck, rather than reading the content in the paragraph "From December 1837…")
    You are right. When I met the article (the day before her bicentenary), she was called simply Clara from start to finish, and serious biographies do the same, but I tried - and think with some success - to change it, more towards what you outline. I think to call her Clara is fine for childhood and adolescence, and an occasional combination (Clara Wieck, Clara Schumann) is fine to clarify that we don't mean her father or husband. Also, concert programs always give the combination, so when she is mentioned as a performer, I think it's also fine. I reduced a few more "Clara". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:02, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
    Obviously, you aren't obligated to change anything, just giving you my 2 cents, which you can totally disregard. SusunW (talk) 14:25, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
    No, but you and I want the same here, respect for the subject. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:32, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Joseph Joachim: "a lasting friendship developed" with or between whom?
    Never liked that sentence, sigh. Between Joachim and Clara S, - or it wouldn't be 40 years. Can you fix that boldly? - I realise that many "Clara" slipped back in since the last time I looked, - another sigh. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:08, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
    Yes, done. SusunW (talk) 14:25, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Johannes Brahms: The last paragraph is somewhat jolting, as we have no prior indication that Robert Schumann was ill. Perhaps the chronology needs adjusting?
    Again, you are right. What follows really belongs under Brahms, though. We need to think about it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:11, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Concert tours: Second paragraph, lede sentence should introduce her, i.e. "In October-November 1857, Schumann…"
    I know that each section should repeat the name, for readers coming from the TOC, but paragraph? That's new for me. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:20, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
    I'm old. When I took writing classes way back before dirt, the lede sentence of each paragraph introduced the subject, before any pronouns were used. As I said before, you can ignore it if you wish. SusunW (talk) 14:25, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
    Let's not talk about age ;) - Your writing education is likely more formal than mine. I do a lot by copying what others do, - here: mention subject in each new section. I won't count in how many DYK reviews I demand that. Looking around: FA Cosima Wagner indeed has a name in every new paragraph, but it's often just "Cosima" (which we don't want to do), and paragraphs tend to be longer. FA Josephine Butler: indeed a name in most but not all paragraphs. FA Florence Nagle: several paragraphs without a name, and this was by five authors including Eric Corbett who is my synonym for good writing. - OK, I'll go over it and see to change a few from pronoun to name, but not rigidly so. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:52, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Later life: Something is missing after as well as, possibly "in" or "for" engagements?
    Second paragraph should begin with her name as an introduction. "Schumann took a break…" Same with the lede sentence of paragraph 3 "…and accompanying singers, Schumann continued…" and paragraph four "In 1885, Schumann once again…"
    Wording simpler, but - see above - I'm not convinced about the name in every paragraph. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:27, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Teaching: She had to teach seems awkward, possibly just she taught?
    Not exactly. What can we say to express that this is very short. "was permitted to teach no longer than" seems more awkward ;) --GA
    I was bold and changed it to "could not teach more than". Perhaps that works? SusunW (talk) 14:25, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
    Possibly and her 60th "career anniversary"?
    taken --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:33, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Family life: Not sure I understand the sentence "She fully accepted the diary in her many entries." Are you meaning she accepted the arrangement of a shared diary as evidenced by her many entries?
    good wording, taken (and please keep in mind that I didn't write most of this article, - I'm just the coordinator.) --GA
    "this life-long goal involved risks"? What does that mean?
    no idea, sorry --GA
    4th Paragraph lede sentence "Schumann was the main…"
    not sure, as above --GA
    Comma after "throughout her life, not just…"
    yes (please just change next time) --GA
    During the May Uprising paragraph is confusing. Did she walk through the streets twice? If only once, maybe you start with the sentence "On the evening of 3 May", pipe [[May Uprising in Dresden|revolution]] and after "maid", "defying a pack of armed men who confronted her."
    Again: how do I know? Will need to check. --GA
    Lede sentence in 7th paragraph should introduce her, i.e. "Schumann's life was punctuated"
    not sure, as above --GA
    Comma between "predecease her, but also..."
    yes --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:45, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Performance repertoire: Please make sure that in the lede sentence of each paragraph Schumann's name is used rather than she or her.
    not sure, as above --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:52, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Compositions: I am confused as earlier in the article piece titles have not been italicized but are in this section. I confess that I do not know which style is correct for music (though I lean towards italicization), but whichever is it should be consistent throughout the article.
    Tricky topic. Piece titles come (per MoS) in three forms: italic when true title, straight but upper case when generic (Piano Concerto, Ballads), in quotation marks when small (such as a lied). --GA
    2nd paragraph "after her marriage, Schumann…"
    3rd paragraph, "As she grew older, however, Schumann…"
    4th paragraph "Schumann produced…"
    all three not sure, as above --GA
    5th paragraph delete "though". Correct lede to introduce her "…of her life, Schumann’s…" Subject/verb agreement is wrong—either "outputs were" or "output was", but not output were. Suggest period after Brahms and then "These included…", as the sentence is extremely long. I do not think her life was "designed for piano students". Clause should be moved to follow Preludes.
    Completely reworded, please check. No full stop possible after Brahms because the "only" is ongoing. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:11, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
Much better. SusunW (talk) 15:28, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Relation to composers: Why did she distance herself from Liszt?
    I don't know, and there's a thread on the article talk. --GA
    I have access to the source given on the talk page. Have tried to explain the issue. You might evaluate it to see if I made the situation clear. SusunW (talk) 17:36, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
    Thank you, looks clear to me. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:25, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
    2nd paragraph should begin with her name, as should the 3rd paragraph.
    not sure, as above --GA
  • Impact during her lifetime: 3rd paragraph should introduce her by name.
    not sure, as above --GA
  • References Litzmann, Berthold (1902–1908). Clara Schumann: Ein Künstlerleben, Nach Tagebüchern und Briefen is not linked to a citation. SusunW (talk) 23:55, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
    All questions for referencing to Chuckstreet, please. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:14, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Comments from Farang Rak Tham[edit]

Obviously written with passion and dedication. Here are a few suggestions, for what it's worth:

  • Beethoven's violin sonatas This links to a disambiguation page.
    That is the closest link we have. Sad, really. --GA
  • Is mentioning every child she had relevant enough?
    Yes, I think, and probably every child should have a redirect to here. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:23, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Sources are mentioned before citations, rather than the other way around. This is unusual, and doesn't seem required.
    Good catch, normal order now. --GA

Good luck with it!--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 22:51, 31 October 2019 (UTC) Expanded.22:53, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for looking. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:23, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Comments from Vami_IV[edit]

Generalis
  • I disagree with the "Life" supersection and advocate for its breaking up and reordering. The frequent use of other musicians' names, frequently men, rather than eras of Schumann's life, results in patchy prose. Put metaphorically, it's not really a complete river, from source to mouth, but rather an album of encounters with other notables like Brahms and Joachim.
    It's something to think aout. The structure was there before we even expanded the article. It's not about "encounters" but relationships for life. It's in the way of chronology. that's right, and was mentioned before. --GA
Life
  • Consider breaking "Youth" into a new section titled "Early life" that also contains "Child prodigy".
  • The placement the image in "Child prodigy" should be moved to the start of the section and to the right. It creates a sizable gap between "Child prodigy" and "Vienna" in its present location.
    I tried restructuring, please check. Tempted to include "Famila life" there also. --GA
    The image should be left, to have her look "in". It should not come right after the header, for context and formatting. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:46, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
Family life
  • The paragraph after the list of the Schumann children should be abbreviated, with the word "bravely" removed for redundancy.
    I moved to the end of the sectopm for now. Will need to check the sources. --GA
Thank you for good comments! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:43, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Wehwalt[edit]

  • "She changed ... She composed ..." several similar constructions in first and second paragraphs very close together.
    I tried, and expanded the lead which I felt was too short anyway, please check again and feel free to improve the wording. --GA
  • "on a weekly basis " maybe "once a week" or "each week"?
    taken --GA
  • "The tour marked the transition from a child prodigy to a young woman performer.[6]" I would say "her transition" rather than "the transition".
    taken --GA
More soon.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:58, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Is this British English? If so, possibly "Mr." and "Dr." should be "Mr" and "Dr".
    I didn't find "Mr" any more. "Dr." is part of the conservatory's name, and I removed the one other. --GA
  • "In 1877 she performed Beethoven's Fifth Piano Concerto with conductor Woldemar Bargiel (her half-brother by her mother's second marriage) in Berlin and had tremendous success.[30][34]" I would move "in Berlin" to after "Concerto" because it rather gets lost after the lengthy parenthetical.
    taken, and reprased --GA
  • Several sentences need citations.
    Sigh. That may take some time. Most citations were there (or not) before I ever looked. Then Chuckstreet helped tremendously, unifying them all to harvard citations, finding online pages. He would probably know, but was driven away over a silly dispute, edit warring over a few blank lines ... Nocturnes (Debussy). I didn't like the extra lines, but really wouldn't care much if it's a main contributor's wish. We are so often told that the wishes of the main contributors need to be respected, and that every attempt to not do so is disruptive ... --GA
  • "In 1883, she performed Beethoven's Choral Fantasy with the newly-formed Berlin Philharmonic, and was enthusiastically celebrated, although she was playing with an injured hand in great pain, from a fall on a staircase the previous day.[46]" I would change "from a fall" to "having fallen".
    taken --GA
  • "She was the only woman in the faculty.[48] " In American English, it would be "on the faculty". Don't know what it is elsewhere.
    taken --GA
  • "She was buried in Bonn at Alter Friedhof with her husband, per her own wish.[50]" I might consider "beside" or "next to" instead of "with" (that is, "with her husband".)
    both taken, one in the lead, the other later --GA
  • "As a flourishing composer's wife, she was limited in her own explorations.[52]" I'm not quite clear what this means.
    sorry, nor do I - this article has a long history - I guess it's meant to say that her composing would have had more of a chance had she been married to a baker or a lawyer, not someone great in the same field, - any chance of rewording that? --GA
  • The paragraph on the May Uprising seems a bit muddled. Is one event (rescue of children) being described or two?
    I ffel the same and will have to look, - it's also "inherited". --GA
  • " In the last year of her life, she left several sketches for piano preludes," Left? Left unfinished or something else?
    a sketch is a draft, implying "unfinished", no? --GA
  • "memorize" If this is BritEng, then this should be "memorise"
    taken, still duplication to "from memory" following --GA
  • You use "program" several times and "programme" once.
    We - different authors - use ... - I know the British use "programme" but it's one of the words I don't like too much, changing --GA
That's it for now.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:59, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for looking, - I was out all day, and need to expand an article for DYK, - so will probably look tomorrow. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:53, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
I got to it now, and found your comments very helpful. I have some questions:
  • Should we say some bits about her father? The mother has no link (but I plan to change that), and he has, but still ...
  • How do you feel about the sequence, ... family life so late - after her husband's death? ... all relationship to Joachim and Brahms so early? I am a bit torn between telling something chronologically and focusing on themes.
  • Should we say a bit about their living in Leipzig and Düsseldorf, or leave it all to his article?
Wehwalt, feel free to answer these questions or not ;) - My next objective is polishing a Bach Christmas cantata. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:48, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
I would rather have seen more info on the family life near the Robert Schumann part. I would have to see what was written about the parents. I would consider her article independent of anything said in his.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:16, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for supporting my thoughts, but will take some time. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:40, 12 November 2019 (UTC)