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March 20

survival exercise: would the rivers be frozen?

I read this survival/discussion activity, and used it in teaching esl classes, but one thing often comes up: It says "The 20 miles to the nearest town is a long walk under even ideal conditions, particularly if one is not used to walking such distances. In this situation, the walk is even more difficult due to shock, snow, dress, and water barriers." I'm not disputing the basic conclusion, but in northern Canada, wouldn't the rivers be frozen at this time of year? Perhaps a local can help. Thanks in advance. IBE (talk) 10:10, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is the surface of the river that freezes. I'm not Canadian but it all depends on how fast the river is and how wide it is and how long it has been freezing whether you can walk over it or not. By the way I'd have thought the most important things were protection from the cold and wind and some signalling rather than making a fire. Though smoke from a fire can be seen from quite a distance. Dmcq (talk) 11:04, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The reference is to "creeks", which sound like they would be smaller than "rivers". And "25 below" to "40 below" zero would likely freeze those creeks. Bus stop (talk) 11:43, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Even for northern Canada, those are winter temperatures; the ocean would largely be frozen (even these days), let alone creeks and rivers. I've never seen one of these things that wasn't ridiculous and this one is no exception. I recognize that the goal is to get people to learn how to form a consensus rather than to determine the actual answer, but the nonsense that gets used is frustrating. For one, what the hell kind of business meeting are you going to with a can of Crisco and a ball of steel wool? :-) Matt Deres (talk) 13:29, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

ok, that's pretty funny, but hardly the point. Suppose you were going to a meeting to learn how to channel wifi through your brain waves or something? Then you would need a metal tin and some makeshift wire, I suppose. Either way, it matters more whether the answers are still basically correct for the given setup, since the equipment is a given, and just the starting point for the discussion. IBE (talk) 13:40, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You could still fall through the ice depending on how big/deep/fast-moving the water is. But perhaps @CambridgeBayWeather: would have some insight here. Adam Bishop (talk) 13:41, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If we give them the benefit of the doubt, one could argue that the water itself isn't the barrier so much as the effect it has on the surrounding terrain. Even with a creek or river frozen solid, the steep, ice- and snow-covered river banks could be treacherous or outright unclimbable, forcing a long detour to find an accessible crossing. Deep snow could further conceal hazardous footing by filling in cracks and fissures. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:00, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You're giving the makers of these things far too much credit: they are a complete joke. The last one I saw prior to this was about being stranded on the moon and what priority you should give having a canoe. The goal is only to facilitate consensus forming; I just wish they wouldn't pretend to be based on something that sounds semi-plausible (the astronaut one was supposedly "developed by NASA"). Matt Deres (talk) 15:45, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think they are quite right in saying trying to trudge 20 miles over difficult ground in that sort of temperature would be extremely stupid. Without good clothing it would be dangerous enough even on a good highway. The plane would have put in a flight plan and people with proper equipment would come searching soon enough. The first imperatives would be to not die and staying beside the crash site would do as a signal to rescuers until a decent shelter was made.

And I did one of these things a while ago and it was very annoying. They had us do them individually and then together. I was second best overall amongst all the results in the whole company - but the group I was put in did badly. And worse than that I was asked afterwards to say how it showed that group decision were better, to which I agreed of course. Gnash grrr. Dmcq (talk) 15:51, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect that the paper was written from a U.S. point of view so the temperature is not −25 °C (−13 °F) but −25 °F (−32 °C). Either way the rivers and creeks will be frozen by mid-January. By that time the ice roads would be open for use, even across the Mackenzie River (NWT Highway 1). It doesn't matter though as the paper clearly indicates that you are not going to walk to town, see the last page for items 11 and 12, but stay with the plane as that is where the search and rescue will begin.

We do get people dressed in business attire flying up here (lawyers, judges, politicians) but they usually have the typical winter gear of parka, gloves, boots and windpants. Without those they are going to die or at least loose some fingers and toes. And remember never leave the crash site. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 16:17, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

How long could a local survive without full protection? I've heard of locals in Canada (maybe not so far north) standing around in jeans and a t-shirt, because they are "used to it". This was when my friend couldn't walk 30 metres without being out of breath, like he'd been kicked in the chest. IBE (talk) 16:25, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well stupid people will do stupid things but I don't think I've ever seen anybody stand around too long. I've taken the garbage out in that kind of clothing at −35 °C (−31 °F) but wouldn't want to walk any further. Age seems to play into it. You see teenagers walking around all winter in spring (−15 °C (5 °F)) clothing. My granddaughter is 8 and she has no problems playing outside when the temperature is -40. If the temperature is -50 (with or without the wind chill) the school has indoor recess. This annoys her no end but some kids just don't have proper clothing. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 16:41, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, @CambridgeBayWeather: - What do people wear at −15 °C (5 °F)? That is still frightfully cold to me, and I do know a little about what it is like. I've experienced −10 °C (14 °F), and it is quite intense. For me, gloves and thermals are not enough. My hands were still freezing to the point of pain. IBE (talk) 12:03, 24 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's Been Emotional Hard to find pictures right now but this is the sort of thing you want in winter. Similar to what I'm wearing today (−37 °C (−35 °F)) but that one is a lot cleaner than mine. This is the sort of thing you see teenagers walking around town in at these temperatures, those are women's but the male are much the same. Gloves are not much good and you are better off with mitts (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Mittens). The best I have are a pair of wolf mitts made by my mother-in-law many years ago. Of course if you are feeling brave you can dress like this. My parka was getting the zipper replaced so I had the jacket instead. Normally I don't use the face mask when I have a proper hood. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 17:09, 24 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Especially the cheapest gloves that are so thin, they're better than nothing but not very good. Was it windy during the -10C? I see that you're in China, if you hate cold don't go more north, lol. And in the US -10 °C+/-0.05 is the AVERAGE at 95.9° W and only 40.7 degrees North/321.6 meters over sea level (the average day's low of January's 3rd week, not all year obviously). The Capital of Florida has reached -19C at the latitude of the Sahara and only 25 meters over sea level and New Orleans, the place that can get 180 mph cyclones has been -12 °C despite being equatorward of the entire Australian Bight, Mediterranean and Perth and having many kilometers of water and wetland immediately north. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:44, 24 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to you both, especially CambridgeBayWeather for finding those photos. That spring gear is pretty much what we have in winter, so that would be quite extreme - my clothing for your spring would be much thicker than that - and I would be wearing a few extra layers as well, you can be sure. Actually, I generally prefer the cold, not least because these colder cities still go a long way up in summer - Harbin can go to -30°C or thereabouts in winter, but about 30°C in summer - the year-round average is about +4°C, so it must go above zero at least as much as below. We get 37°C and very humid in summer here in Taizhou, Jiangsu, so I'll take any amount of cold over that - our 10°C was not very windy, but enough therapy to compensate for summer ;) IBE (talk) 12:27, 25 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's Been Emotional. Those jackets are the top end. Unfortunately there are many who can't afford good spring jackets and make do with a lot less. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 15:52, 25 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Did Germany ever bomb Germany

I have read Strategic bombing during World War II which makes no reference to it, and Scorched earth which says "Hitler also ordered the destruction of transport, bridges, industries, and other infrastructure—a scorched earth decree—but Armaments Minister Albert Speer was able to keep this order from being fully carried out" but I would still like to ask whether Germany ever bombed any part of Germany (during retreat?) in WWII. (Or WWI). Hayttom (talk) 16:59, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Bombed from the air (not AFAIK) or demolished by military engineers (many, many bridges etc.)?

The Luftwaffe was largely ineffective by this time, owing to bombing of its own operations, loss of aircraft, Allied air superiority, and (AFAIK) mostly a lack of fuel. They did carry out tactical bombing attacks on Allied military forces in German territory, but not this type of strategic destruction of infrastructure. The Me 262 was used as a fighter-bomber in this period, on Hitler's direct orders. This has been widely criticised as a 'waste' of such an effective fighter, however it may have been a better decision than is usually credited. It was one of the few aircraft capable of still operating against Allied superiority, and it also only needed a simpler kerosene fuel. Andy Dingley (talk) 17:46, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Andy Dingley. I have also just read our article on the V-2 rocket which says that 11 V-2s were fired at Remagen (which is in Germany, about 50 km from France). I would love to know more about this. Hayttom (talk) 18:01, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If anywhere was bombed like this, it would have been the Ludendorff Bridge, and its strategic crossing of the Rhine. I have a memory that the larger Ar 234 jet bomber was used. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:15, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

V-2 rocket#Tactical use mentions the target was the bridge. They didn't hit it. They actually bombed their own country from abroad since the rockets were in the Netherlands to be close to other targets. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:26, 22 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The article states that the Leonidas Squadron made suicide attacks on the Oder River bridges, including the bridge at Kuestrin, then part of German East Prussia (now Poland). 164.107.80.170 (talk) 19:12, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Most Bridges where destroyed by Pioneer (military) Soldiers. Bombs where not reliable enough during WW2 and the nazis wanted to prevent any possibility of fast improvised repairs by the Allied forces so they used the land based special forces to destroy the bridges beyond repair. --Kharon (talk) 09:34, 22 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hence the need for swift assault to take them. Six moths earlier, the road bridge at Nijmegen was rushed by the Allies before the demolition charges could be blown. Again, the Germans tried to bomb the bridge but it was finally destroyed by frogmen. Alansplodge (talk) 14:17, 22 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

(Yes they did.)

SNAP and Food Banks

The Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program provides money (used to be literal food stamps/coupons) in the form of debit cards. While Wikipedia does mention qualifications and food permissions, I wonder how they differ from food banks and food pantries and soup kitchens run by charities. If the national government cuts spending on food stamps, then will the poor be more reliant on food charities? What kinds of things are offered by SNAP and not by charities? 140.254.70.33 (talk) 21:30, 20 March 2018 (UTC) :Linked to program article and corrected spelling. --47.146.60.177 (talk) 02:00, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Food pantries have limited number of locations and supply and choice of items. Food stamps etc can be used at ordinary supermarkets and other stores which have many more locations and food purchase choices. RudolfRed (talk) 22:13, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Vegetarians, kosher followers and diabetes and celiac sufferers would have even less choice. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 22:30, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

SNAP is a cash benefit that can be spent on any allowed items at any retailer that accepts it (which is basically anywhere that sells groceries). Food banks and the like are nonprofits that maintain inventories of food and give said food out to people. You get what they give you, although I'm sure some places give some leeway for requesting certain items if they have them in stock. --47.146.60.177 (talk) 01:56, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]